2016 Baltimore Orioles

[52520Andrew]

Just now, Ravens4Real said:

Terrible week to be a Baltimore sports fan...

There has been worse

[52520Andrew]

We really need to get more consistent on offense, pitching can only do so much if we don't hit and we wasted a great effort from the pen.

[BmoreBird22]

I'm gonna be the first to say that Buck managed this game horribly. 

I still think the decision to start Tillman over Jimenez was dumb. I know that Jimenez will be remembered for that home run being given up, but he (Jimenez) never had a chance to get into a rhythm and history said Tillman would struggle. No surprise, Tillman struggled and didn't make it five innings. Maybe Jimenez still gives up the same two runs as Tillman, but chances are he makes it further into the game and doesn't force the bullpen to come out in the fourth inning. I think that hurt the Orioles more than anything because they thew Ubaldo out there in an extremely high pressure situation that he's not used to against the heart of the Blue Jays rotation. 

Also, the decision to not use Zach Britton. Just, why? He had allowed one earned run since April 30 and you don't go to him? Were you waiting for a save opportunity? This is the playoffs. You have one shot and you don't go to the best reliever in baseball? Shameful.

Hated the decision to go with Reimold. I know Kim hadn't gotten a hit off a left handed batter this year, but he still owned the highest BA and OBP, so the odds of him at least getting on base were better than that of Reimold, who just swung at three straight pitches.

[Ravens4Real]

If I was Britton, I'm taking the largest contact I can in the offseason and getting the hell out of Baltimore.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, Ravens4Real said:

If I was Britton, I'm taking the largest contact I can in the offseason and getting the hell out of Baltimore.

Is he even a FA?

[BmoreBird22]

Showalter said Britton was fine.

Absolutely moronic of Buck. Horribly moronic.

Edited October 5, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[BmoreBird22]

Buck said no one was pitching better for them than Ubaldo...

Maybe that's true as a starter, but your best pitcher is easily Briton, arguably the best pitcher in the AL. 

Horrible management.

[52520Andrew]

6 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm gonna be the first to say that Buck managed this game horribly. 

I still think the decision to start Tillman over Jimenez was dumb. I know that Jimenez will be remembered for that home run being given up, but he (Jimenez) never had a chance to get into a rhythm and history said Tillman would struggle. No surprise, Tillman struggled and didn't make it five innings. Maybe Jimenez still gives up the same two runs as Tillman, but chances are he makes it further into the game and doesn't force the bullpen to come out in the fourth inning. I think that hurt the Orioles more than anything because they thew Ubaldo out there in an extremely high pressure situation that he's not used to against the heart of the Blue Jays rotation. 

Also, the decision to not use Zach Britton. Just, why? He had allowed one earned run since April 30 and you don't go to him? Were you waiting for a save opportunity? This is the playoffs. You have one shot and you don't go to the best reliever in baseball? Shameful.

Hated the decision to go with Reimold. I know Kim hadn't gotten a hit off a left handed batter this year, but he still owned the highest BA and OBP, so the odds of him at least getting on base were better than that of Reimold, who just swung at three straight pitches.

Tough to tell what Jiminez does, he could have one of his bad nights and make it 2 innings giving up 5 runs. And if Jiminez can't handle the moment in the 11th, he wouldn't have done much better in the first when the place was rocking or when he gives up a couple base runners in the middle innings like he likes to do. Has Jiminez even pitched in the playoffs?

Agree on the other decisions but I do think Tillman was our best shot as long as we were sold on health coming off nice rest.

[BmoreBird22]

1 minute ago, 52520Andrew said:

Tough to tell what Jiminez does, he could have one of his bad nights and make it 2 innings giving up 5 runs. And if Jiminez can't handle the moment in the 11th, he wouldn't have done much better in the first when the place was rocking or when he gives up a couple base runners in the middle innings like he likes to do. Has Jiminez even pitched in the playoffs?

Agree on the other decisions but I do think Tillman was our best shot as long as we were sold on health coming off nice rest.

Actually, yes, Jimenez was apart of the Rockies World Series team. 

However, there's a big difference between being able to get into a rhythm at the start of the game when the batters have no rhythm and being thrown into the bottom of the 11th against the heart of a very dangerous offense. I don't think the Jays have a particularly deep lineup, but he was coming into arguably one of the best portions of a lineup in the MLB. Had he not given up the home run, he'd see Donaldson, Encarnacion, Bautista, Martin, and Tulowitzki. That's not a lineup I would like to come into as a hitter with the game on the line. 

Also, Tillman was awful since his return from injury (and over the second half in general) and has been extremely dismal in Toronto for his career with the Orioles. Couple that with Buck saying he thought no one pitched better than Ubaldo (which would be true, except for Britton) over the second half of the season and I'm not sure why Buck didn't start Ubaldo. 

I don't blame Ubaldo; I blame Buck for putting him in that situation and not utilizing Britton.

[52520Andrew]

2 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Actually, yes, Jimenez was apart of the Rockies World Series team. 

However, there's a big difference between being able to get into a rhythm at the start of the game when the batters have no rhythm and being thrown into the bottom of the 11th against the heart of a very dangerous offense. I don't think the Jays have a particularly deep lineup, but he was coming into arguably one of the best portions of a lineup in the MLB. Had he not given up the home run, he'd see Donaldson, Encarnacion, Bautista, Martin, and Tulowitzki. That's not a lineup I would like to come into as a hitter with the game on the line. 

Also, Tillman was awful since his return from injury (and over the second half in general) and has been extremely dismal in Toronto for his career with the Orioles. Couple that with Buck saying he thought no one pitched better than Ubaldo (which would be true, except for Britton) over the second half of the season and I'm not sure why Buck didn't start Ubaldo. 

I don't blame Ubaldo; I blame Buck for putting him in that situation and not utilizing Britton.

Well the Jays put their starter in and he had no problem shutting us down. Any explanation for that one? Ubaldo had plenty of time to warm up in the pen and he gave up more runs than the rest of our staff tonight combined in less than one inning. This is the postseason, Ubaldo is going to be put in tough situations and he didn't deliver when he pitched. 

I don't want to say he is the goat because it is hard to blame pitching for a loss when the bats don't score after the 4th and again show that they can't hit consistent when it matters. I don't think we win a world series unless the bats get more consistent and we get people who can bat for average as opposed to swinging for the fences all the time.

But still, Ubaldo has been inconsistent his entire time here and I don't blame Buck for going with the guy who prior to injury was our clear and unquestioned stud at pitching. In a do or die game I don't care how they have been doing recently, I am taking Tillman over Ubaldo 10 out of 10 times. I don't blame Buck for making that decision. It is the same reason I would start AJ Green in fantasy even if he is going against Denver vs going with Mike Wallace with a good matchup. Tillman is our ace, these are the games we pitch him in. If he struggles so be it but again we were in this game all the way up and the bats could not give our pen a lead to defend after the Trumbo homer. If they had this conversation would not be happening. 

[JO_75]

The decision to NOT play Britton is more mind boggling when you see his ERA stats by month.

Ryan M. SpaederVerified account‏@theaceofspaeder

#Orioles Zach Britton ERA this season: April: 2.70 May: 0.00 June: 0.00 July: 0.00 Aug: 0.96 Sept: 0.00 Oct: 0.00 Postseason: DID NOT PITCH

[Tank 92]

7 hours ago, codizzle said:

Lmao. And everyone wanted him to start. 

Well done O's. Back to ? 

He should have started.  

[stampedehero]

On 9/30/2016 at 0:12 PM, Steve0x said:

Why don't O's fans sellout Yankee Stadium all 3 games just like Yankee fans been doing at Camden Yards though out the years?

Camden Yards is easier  to get to, has great cuisine and hotels, costs less and is better than Yankee stadium. Yankees fans are driven from their prior greatness.   They can beat a dead horse  

[stampedehero]

We lost the tie game to Toronto.     It was great witnessing a team that had a chance all season long.    I wish that BoSox series turned our way.  Once we lost first and the division, then we went the back door approach.   Good luck to the Jays.   I do not want a Boston triumph.

[BmoreBird22]

7 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Well the Jays put their starter in and he had no problem shutting us down. Any explanation for that one? Ubaldo had plenty of time to warm up in the pen and he gave up more runs than the rest of our staff tonight combined in less than one inning. This is the postseason, Ubaldo is going to be put in tough situations and he didn't deliver when he pitched. 

I don't want to say he is the goat because it is hard to blame pitching for a loss when the bats don't score after the 4th and again show that they can't hit consistent when it matters. I don't think we win a world series unless the bats get more consistent and we get people who can bat for average as opposed to swinging for the fences all the time.

But still, Ubaldo has been inconsistent his entire time here and I don't blame Buck for going with the guy who prior to injury was our clear and unquestioned stud at pitching. In a do or die game I don't care how they have been doing recently, I am taking Tillman over Ubaldo 10 out of 10 times. I don't blame Buck for making that decision. It is the same reason I would start AJ Green in fantasy even if he is going against Denver vs going with Mike Wallace with a good matchup. Tillman is our ace, these are the games we pitch him in. If he struggles so be it but again we were in this game all the way up and the bats could not give our pen a lead to defend after the Trumbo homer. If they had this conversation would not be happening. 

I would actually liken the Ubaldo-Tillman match up decision more to Doug Baldwin over the second half last year (that's pretty much what he was) or do you start AJ Green (even though Tillman isn't in that ace status). Do you ride the hot hand or do you ride the one who consistently produces and isn't elite? I am riding the hot hand 100% of the time, especially when I believe the hot hand is actually the one pitching the best out of everyone (minus the closer). 

It's not just about the post second half ERA's or WHIP's (although, Baldy does this every single year pretty much; he gets vastly better in the second half). It's also that Tillman does not have a good history in Roger's Center. This isn't a one year thing, either. In his three year span (2014-2016) he owns a 9.99 ERA, five innings pitched on average, and something like a 1.5 WHIP in Toronto. He just struggles up there. So, we have a pitcher who progressively got worse over the second half of the season AND struggles historically against his potential opponent vs a pitcher who lit it up over the second half of the season (15+ starts, so we know it isn't a fluke) and was especially good over his final seven to close out the season, yet we go with the one that's in a slump.

Also, warming up in the bullpen is hardly any where near facing a live batter. They're probably throwing like 60 MPH and just throwing, not really trying to place the ball or throw a wide variety of pitches. They're just getting the ball back and throwing again. Not really too much to it. Going into that portion of the line up (I believe all righty's, too), I'm really not sure why Buck didn't go with Britton. It's the most powerful portion of the lineup and they would have had match up difficulties, in theory, with Britton.

I can't really say much for the bats because they went 0-16 after Machado's single in the sixth. I think I have said this many times, but I hate how a team like the Red Sox seem to understand you can hit for power AND contact. It makes me jealous when I see someone like Trout with an absurd .450 OBP. Orioles hitters are the most impatient ones in the league. They don't take balls, they swing for the fences every single time, and they just take what's given without making a pitcher work. Also, they really aren't getting good contact always when they are getting ball on bat. It'd be nice to see their hard contact go up. 

I was really excited to see Stroman was pitching because Liriano is a lefty and had been much more consistent this season and much better against the Orioles in general, so I figured this would be a great match up. Of course, that didn't happen.

I think a lot of things went wrong for this game, but there was definitely no bigger blunder than not putting Britton out there.

Edited October 5, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[Tank 92]

7 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I'm gonna be the first to say that Buck managed this game horribly. 

I still think the decision to start Tillman over Jimenez was dumb. I know that Jimenez will be remembered for that home run being given up, but he (Jimenez) never had a chance to get into a rhythm and history said Tillman would struggle. No surprise, Tillman struggled and didn't make it five innings. Maybe Jimenez still gives up the same two runs as Tillman, but chances are he makes it further into the game and doesn't force the bullpen to come out in the fourth inning. I think that hurt the Orioles more than anything because they thew Ubaldo out there in an extremely high pressure situation that he's not used to against the heart of the Blue Jays rotation. 

Also, the decision to not use Zach Britton. Just, why? He had allowed one earned run since April 30 and you don't go to him? Were you waiting for a save opportunity? This is the playoffs. You have one shot and you don't go to the best reliever in baseball? Shameful.

Hated the decision to go with Reimold. I know Kim hadn't gotten a hit off a left handed batter this year, but he still owned the highest BA and OBP, so the odds of him at least getting on base were better than that of Reimold, who just swung at three straight pitches.

Pretty much agree with everything you say here, although maybe the Reimhold thing. Not sure he had a choice there. 

[BmoreBird22]

11 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Pretty much agree with everything you say here, although maybe the Reimhold thing. Not sure he had a choice there. 

Why do you say that?

And I don't hate it just because he swung at three straight low pitches, but because he's been just historically bad. He's not a good hitter and I'm really not sure his defense is anything special. I really don't understand it because right handed batters tend to pull the ball to the left, right? I know the amount of fly balls to left field by right handed batters is skewed heavily, so defense in left there was extremely valuable.

I don't know, just didn't like the move.

Edited October 5, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[Ravens4Real]

8 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Is he even a FA?

I misread an article on him the past week. Upon looking again, he has this year and next for arbitration. So he should be under control until then. Will still see a massive bump in pay after this year though.

[rmw10]

I think going with Tillman was the right choice.  He's your ace.  You live and die by him.  If it was the regular season, he probably doesn't get pulled that soon, but the playoffs are high stakes so that's the main reason he was pulled out.  Even before the game losing gaffe, I was no more confident in Ubaldo.

I think the Reimold decision was awful, as Reimold just isn't good.  He's done next to nothing all year.  I don't blame Buck for wanting to PH for Kim, but Reimold wouldn't have been my choice.  Hell, I'd have considered throwing Mancini out there and then having Stubbs come in for defense.

Not using Britton is without a doubt the worst decision though.  Regular season philosophies have to go out the window in a 1 game playoff.  You put your best guys out there to hold the score, and come to the long men when needed.  Hope your bats get it done at some point.  You can't leave your best pitcher on the bench in the most important game of the season.  Buck deserves a lot of blame for this one.

[BmoreBird22]

2 minutes ago, Ravens4Real said:

I misread an article on him the past week. Upon looking again, he has this year and next for arbitration. So he should be under control until then. Will still see a massive bump in pay after this year though.

I thought he had a few more. Glad to hear he'll be under Orioles control for a bit longer. Deserves every penny with how reliable he's been.

[Moderator 3]

1 minute ago, rmw10 said:

I think going with Tillman was the right choice.  He's your ace.  You live and die by him.  If it was the regular season, he probably doesn't get pulled that soon, but the playoffs are high stakes so that's the main reason he was pulled out.  Even before the game losing gaffe, I was no more confident in Ubaldo.

I think the Reimold decision was awful, as Reimold just isn't good.  He's done next to nothing all year.  I don't blame Buck for wanting to PH for Kim, but Reimold wouldn't have been my choice.  Hell, I'd have considered throwing Mancini out there and then having Stubbs come in for defense.

Not using Britton is without a doubt the worst decision though.  Regular season philosophies have to go out the window in a 1 game playoff.  You put your best guys out there to hold the score, and come to the long men when needed.  Hope your bats get it done at some point.  You can't leave your best pitcher on the bench in the most important game of the season.  Buck deserves a lot of blame for this one.

Agree with most of this, especially the Reimold stuff.  I can't even post what went through my mind when he entered the game.

The only "excuse" I can come up with for not using Britton is that Buck was waiting for our bats to give us a lead. Then he would have gone to Britton to end the game.

I’m ready for a few players who can hit for average and maybe run to first in less than 10 seconds.  Will start the Off-Season thread in a while.  Still too sad to see this season end.  Sure was exciting while it lasted.

[jimmypowder]

Buck is really getting an earful this morning from the media for not pitching Britton in the 11th and not deliberately loading the bases. 

Some are calling it the dumbest decision in baseball playoff history. Britton is after all a sinker pitcher and we needed a double play. 

Why Buck Showalter made the stupidest managerial decision I've ever ...

Edited October 5, 2016 by jimmypowder

[cobrajet]

43 minutes ago, jimmypowder said:

Buck is really getting an earful this morning from the media for not pitching Britton in the 11th and not deliberately loading the bases. 

Some are calling it the dumbest decision in baseball playoff history. Britton is after all a sinker pitcher and we needed a double play. 

Why Buck Showalter made the stupidest managerial decision I've ever ...

When it is the bottom of extra innings and they have first and third with only one out, and there is NO TOMORROW if you lose, you have to walk a guy and load the bases, then bring in your best guy for that situation, who is Britton, and try for the double play, and live or die with the outcome.  I am not a Buck basher, but to leave Britton in the bullpen was very stupid IMHO. If after that you still lose, then it was not meant to be for us last night and I would be at peace with it. Unfortunately, we have to live with a stupid decision, like we had to on Sunday with the acceptance of that penalty on fourth down, and I am not very happy about it. Twice in three days dealing with stupid decisions......Lord have mercy on us Baltimore Sports Fans!

Edited October 5, 2016 by cobrajet

[Tank 92]

4 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Why do you say that?

And I don't hate it just because he swung at three straight low pitches, but because he's been just historically bad. He's not a good hitter and I'm really not sure his defense is anything special. I really don't understand it because right handed batters tend to pull the ball to the left, right? I know the amount of fly balls to left field by right handed batters is skewed heavily, so defense in left there was extremely valuable.

I don't know, just didn't like the move.

Too bad Pearce went down.

[balfan23]

3 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Agree with most of this, especially the Reimold stuff.  I can't even post what went through my mind when he entered the game.

The only "excuse" I can come up with for not using Britton is that Buck was waiting for our bats to give us a lead. Then he would have gone to Britton to end the game.

I’m ready for a few players who can hit for average and maybe run to first in less than 10 seconds.  Will start the Off-Season thread in a while.  Still too sad to see this season end.  Sure was exciting while it lasted.

It is a shame, because I think Buck was pulling all the right moves up until that last inning. You can make an excuse that you didn't need Britton up to that point, when we had other major jams because it was either too early (Givens in the middle innings) or you were still rolling out guys you trust (O'Day). But when it was Ubaldo and you know he's a guy who comes out and shows you instantly he's either got it or he doesn't ... and he shows you he doesn't ... the only hope is to bring out Britton - hope he gets out of the jam, we score a run in the top and then Britton could be good for 5 outs. 

The way we were hitting, I don't think we get a base runner, let alone a run, but that's you're only hope. The fact we just left Ubaldo out there was stunning. 

I have loved the Oriole way ... from the days of Earl Weaver ... but the pitching, defense and the 3-run homer philosophy does often times run into troubles in the post-season when the home run ball is much harder to come by. It has been shown through our history. I still like the philosophy in general, but this team needs at least a little more balance. 

I'm tired of the lack of discipline at the plate. We swing at way too many balls. Jones is the king of that, but it seems to be bleeding into Machado's game. That's troublesome. 

Fans and media can crucify Buck, but in the end, this game was lost by our bats. They failed to score just one run in the final 4 frames against some mediocre bull pen arms. If anyone said that we'd be 2-2 going into the late innings and it came down to a battle between the pens, we'd have all taken it. Our pen did their job - our bats did not. 

[Tank 92]

4 hours ago, rmw10 said:

I think going with Tillman was the right choice.  He's your ace.  You live and die by him.  If it was the regular season, he probably doesn't get pulled that soon, but the playoffs are high stakes so that's the main reason he was pulled out.  Even before the game losing gaffe, I was no more confident in Ubaldo.

I think the Reimold decision was awful, as Reimold just isn't good.  He's done next to nothing all year.  I don't blame Buck for wanting to PH for Kim, but Reimold wouldn't have been my choice.  Hell, I'd have considered throwing Mancini out there and then having Stubbs come in for defense.

Not using Britton is without a doubt the worst decision though.  Regular season philosophies have to go out the window in a 1 game playoff.  You put your best guys out there to hold the score, and come to the long men when needed.  Hope your bats get it done at some point.  You can't leave your best pitcher on the bench in the most important game of the season.  Buck deserves a lot of blame for this one.

Still think he should have started Ubaldo for the exact reason you mention. Tillman hasn't been the ace of the staff since mid August and Baldy was the one that had been hot, and the ace of the staff. I think Tillman did the best he could(fortunate to not have given up 3) but we got pretty much what I expected from him. For me it was a no brainer to go with Jimenez considering the way he pitched throughout September as he very well could have got them all the way to Britton.

The real head scratchers are not using Britton, pitching to Encarcion, and not at least bringing Zach in after it was apparent Baldy didn't have his stuff. Damn, how can just leave those bullets in your gun?   

[rmw10]

4 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Agree with most of this, especially the Reimold stuff.  I can't even post what went through my mind when he entered the game.

The only "excuse" I can come up with for not using Britton is that Buck was waiting for our bats to give us a lead. Then he would have gone to Britton to end the game.

I’m ready for a few players who can hit for average and maybe run to first in less than 10 seconds.  Will start the Off-Season thread in a while.  Still too sad to see this season end.  Sure was exciting while it lasted.

I think this is definitely the rationale, but that doesn't lessen the stupidity.   I mean, we're talking about a guy that gave up a grand total of 4 earned runs all year.  I'd have much more trust in him holding the score to try to allow the bats to put another run up on the board.

[BmoreBird22]

1 hour ago, Tank 92 said:

Too bad Pearce went down.

Yeah, that's actually what I was thinking about as I posted that.

[rmw10]

37 minutes ago, Tank 92 said:

Still think he should have started Ubaldo for the exact reason you mention. Tillman hasn't been the ace of the staff since mid August and Baldy was the one that had been hot, and the ace of the staff. I think Tillman did the best he could(fortunate to not have given up 3) but we got pretty much what I expected from him. For me it was a no brainer to go with Jimenez considering the way he pitched throughout September as he very well could have got them all the way to Britton.

The real head scratchers are not using Britton, pitching to Encarcion, and not at least bringing Zach in after it was apparent Baldy didn't have his stuff. Damn, how can just leave those bullets in your gun?   

I don't agree with going Ubaldo solely because we've seen the ebbs and flows over 3 years now.  How many gems has he pitched, only to follow it up with a complete bust?  I like what Ubaldo did but I just couldn't justify giving him the ball in the most important game of the season, despite the recent success.  Tillman, while he's struggled a bit, has still been consistently decent at least.  The bigger issue with Tillman is keeping the pitch count down, not him giving up massive amounts of runs.  In a playoff game, I'd rather take the chance that we have to pull Tillman an inning early than pull Ubaldo 3 innings early.

[BmoreBird22]

23 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I don't agree with going Ubaldo solely because we've seen the ebbs and flows over 3 years now.  How many gems has he pitched, only to follow it up with a complete bust?  I like what Ubaldo did but I just couldn't justify giving him the ball in the most important game of the season, despite the recent success.  Tillman, while he's struggled a bit, has still been consistently decent at least.  The bigger issue with Tillman is keeping the pitch count down, not him giving up massive amounts of runs.  In a playoff game, I'd rather take the chance that we have to pull Tillman an inning early than pull Ubaldo 3 innings early.

I would have much rather gone with Ubaldo because he'd been extremely solid for the entire post All Star break. This wasn't like he'd had a bad game here and there. No, he was pretty much dominant for the entire second half of the season. His final 15 game ERA was like 2.82 and he'd pitched a sub 2.00 ERA in his final seven, I believe. It's really hard to bet against that type of success because what we routinely see in his career is he gets on extended runs and this was one of them.

With Tillman, I think he gets an overinflated sense of value because of his win numbers, but this year and last year, he'd been averaging under six innings pitched. He just wasn't a workhorse. You probably weren't gonna get very far with him, which meant turning to your bullpen way earlier. At least Ubaldo had shown a lot of endurance and durability in the final months.