Flex's Mock, again.

[52520Andrew]

8 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

So who do you like at 6.. I've heard you go on and on about who you don't like, so how about a little less nitpicking and doom and gloom about our highest pick since 2000. Let's hear something positive from you.

I don't think you were here when that fan was around so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that going over your head. Wouldn't mind Hargreaves at 6 at all, one of the most technically sound CBs to come out in years. 

[GrimCoconut]

16 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He isn't the strongest but I wouldn't say he lacks functional strength. He plays with a nice punch to turn the tackles shoulder When he finds his opportunity to close in on the pocket, and a lot like suggs he combines anticipation, great quickness and agility, and solid technique to be a well rounded pass rushing threat. I've always thought he was a bit like suggs in the sense that he doesn't jump out in any one aspect but he gets the job done by combining multiple assets in one play, he doesn't rely on one tool in his belt. 

 

I will agree though that he's not a year 1 starter, but I think he's a year 1 impact player, and I think He is certainly coachable and has the tools to become a starter in the future.

Are you comparing Calhoun to current Suggs or Suggs as a top 10 prospect Suggs? 

[GrimCoconut]

12 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Helped, every dog has its day lol. I also wanna point out that Blake Sims was atrocious in that game along with the Bama offense in general. 

 

Vonn bell providing the safety net and bosa/Bennett/Washington applying the pressure against a run first offense that's being forced to pass the ball with a scrambling qb is a recipe for disaster and I wouldn't judge a cb on that unless he played absolutely spectacular lol. 

 

If Apple becomes a good cb I won't necessarily be surprised, he's got the tools. Realistically every player is a question mark in terms of taking the next step mentally, but some more than others, I just think Apple may be in that category.

Apple didn't cover Cooper every snap in that game, which is why I said helped, but he did well against the top 10 pick when he covered him. Sims is certainly garbage

[GrimCoconut]

8 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

I don't think you were here when that fan was around so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that going over your head. Wouldn't mind Hargreaves at 6 at all, one of the most technically sound CBs to come out in years. 

That fan was here just this season, so he was here. That said, let's forget it since he's like Voldemort. 

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, GrimCoconut said:

That fan was here just this season, so he was here. That said, let's forget it since he's like He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

Fixed

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Are you comparing Calhoun to current Suggs or Suggs as a top 10 prospect Suggs? 

Neither. When I use a player comp it's very loosely based. I was a kid when suggs was a prospect so I can't even speak on that. I'm saying that suggs in the NFL doesn't jump off the screen with insane speed or power, but he's got good anticipation and plays chess with the tackle, he gets the advantage by timing his jump well and flying off the ball and works from there, if the tackle overcommits to the outside then he can plant his foot and place his hands on the inside shoulder and fly into the pocket, if the tackle tries to square up with him then suggs plays with him with good hands and feet, Calhoun shows some of the same potential, he isn't overly fast or strong but he gets and initial advantage and then uses different tactics to toy with the OT and win in different ways. He is no suggs, it's just to say he doesn't need to fly around the corner or bullrush a guy into the pocket to win, suggs is the same way.

[GrimCoconut]

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Neither. When I use a player comp it's very loosely based. I was a kid when suggs was a prospect so I can't even speak on that. I'm saying that suggs in the NFL doesn't jump off the screen with insane speed or power, but he's got good anticipation and plays chess with the tackle, he gets the advantage by timing his jump well and flying off the ball and works from there, if the tackle overcommits to the outside then he can plant his foot and place his hands on the inside shoulder and fly into the pocket, if the tackle tries to square up with him then suggs plays with him with good hands and feet, Calhoun shows some of the same potential, he isn't overly fast or strong but he gets and initial advantage and then uses different tactics to toy with the OT and win in different ways. He is no suggs, it's just to say he doesn't need to fly around the corner or bullrush a guy into the pocket to win, suggs is the same way.

Okay. It's not "neither" since you said you're essentially comparing how Suggs currently plays to Calhoun as a prospect. I was also too young when Suggs was drafted but I do recall reading up on him and you can go watch some of his stuff. It's out there. 

Suggs as a prospect had a great first step. He still has a good first step. He was a pass rusher first and didn't set the edge that well and wasn't all that in coverage. He still isn't but he sets the edge well and his step has slowed but it's still very good. 

Calhoun has a better first step than I gave him credit. I don't know what member I told he didn't but I owe then an apology. I wish I knew who because I'd call myself out on it. I'm too lazy and busy to go looking though.

I think Calhoun's issue is his timing. He's quick off the ball and isn't that good setting the edge but he has a nice repertoire of pass rush moves but his timing is inconsistent. He could be a great pass rusher. I've watched a lot of him lately and I'll be the first to admit I didn't like him after liking him last year. I thought he was slow but I've concluded it's really inconsistent snap timing. 

[JoeyFlex5]

5 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Okay. It's not "neither" since you said you're essentially comparing how Suggs currently plays to Calhoun as a prospect. I was also too young when Suggs was drafted but I do recall reading up on him and you can go watch some of his stuff. It's out there. 

Suggs as a prospect had a great first step. He still has a good first step. He was a pass rusher first and didn't set the edge that well and wasn't all that in coverage. He still isn't but he sets the edge well and his step has slowed but it's still very good. 

Calhoun has a better first step than I gave him credit. I don't know what member I told he didn't but I owe then an apology. I wish I knew who because I'd call myself out on it. I'm too lazy and busy to go looking though.

I think Calhoun's issue is his timing. He's quick off the ball and isn't that good setting the edge but he has a nice repertoire of pass rush moves but his timing is inconsistent. He could be a great pass rusher. I've watched a lot of him lately and I'll be the first to admit I didn't like him after liking him last year. I thought he was slow but I've concluded it's really inconsistent snap timing. 

We both were in on that discussion. We had the same exact thoughts and progressions on Calhoun lol. I personally prefer fackrell but I'm trying to play Ozzie here. I would be excited about the pick though for sure

[ellicottraven]

I see it going this way:

Tunsil, Wentz, Ramsey, Bosa, Jack, Buckner/VH3/Elliott (Ravens). I won't discount either VH3 or Elliott as our pick at #6. I believed beginning about 2-3 weeks ago that Ramsey would be the Titans pick over Tunsil, but after seeing his pro day I don't think there is a chance that the Titans don't pick Tunsil #1 overall. LT just said on NFL.com that the Chargers are targeting Ramsey after they let Weddle walk so if he is available, then that is where Ramsey is going. As for the Boys, who the hell knows what senile Jerry'll do. Jacksonville and Cleveland are the wild cards in my eyes. Jacsonville could go Buckner/Jack/VH3 and Cleveland could go 'anybody' that isn't Tunsil. They're unpredictable as they have a new crop of decision makers. In an ideal world, they would play it smart by selecting Wentz, but again they're the Browns...

[52520Andrew]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

That fan was here just this season, so he was here. That said, let's forget it since he's like Voldemort. 

Ah I haven't seen him around in a while. I know @Inqui has taken up the call in his honor.

[RavensFan34950]

2 hours ago, edthehead said:

I am not throwing him under the bus, 

for me again me, if I had a choice

I like ELI, size and speed, 2 things you either have or don't.

the rest can be coached up.

if we do not trade back call me crazy

but I like buckner over bosa if both was there.

if there is a trade back (RAMS) take him,

I like mocks that sparks a good conversation, so good mock 

Wait, so you prefer Eli Apple over VH3?

[Prino61]

14 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Vernon Hargreaves III, CB. 

This kid is a damn good corner, and when people bring up a few games at the end of his college career they are really nitpicking. He is only 5'10", but so id Revis, Harris Jr, Grimes, and plenty of other top flight NFL corners, 5'10" is not short for a CB, taller corners have a higher center of gravity and longer legs, causing slower movements and stiffer hips and they are nowhere near as fluid, tall corners with elite cover skills are few and far between, VH3 is a regular sized corner with absolutely elite cover skills who plays like he is 6'0" tall, he mirrors like a darelle revis, closes in on the play like a chris harris jr, and explodes from ANY bodily position to make a play on the ball like a patrick peterson. He is instant coffee, he is a day 1 starter, and he changes our defense, it comes down to VH3, Buckner, and Zeke here, and i think the ravens take the biggest need and in one season our secondary rebounds from a HUGE liability to the strength of the defense. 

 

 

Im glad to see you're as big on VH3 as I am. Im telling you this guy will be the best corner in this draft. I think he will be a better corner than Ramesy, although I think Ramsey will be a better player

[JoeyFlex5]

6 minutes ago, Prino61 said:

Im glad to see you're as big on VH3 as I am. Im telling you this guy will be the best corner in this draft. I think he will be a better corner than Ramesy, although I think Ramsey will be a better player

I don't see Ramsey as a pure cb but more of a guy that the dc has to build his defense around and maximize his potential. Vh3 I think is the best corner, and I think He may end up the Best in the league. His instincts in off man are incredible and his closing speed and ability to vault himself to the ball are all very ideal tools. I don't think he's the cb that qbs just ignore, I think he's the cb that makes the qb think he has a completion and ends up forcing the turnover instead. A wr might look open against him until the qb gets ready to release then suddenly he's got his hands on the ball, a tall wr might look like has the advantage but If that ball isn't dropped perfectly out of his reach and into the breadbasket then he can make a play because of his great hops and body control

[Jacquouille]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Okay. It's not "neither" since you said you're essentially comparing how Suggs currently plays to Calhoun as a prospect. I was also too young when Suggs was drafted but I do recall reading up on him and you can go watch some of his stuff. It's out there. 

Suggs as a prospect had a great first step. He still has a good first step. He was a pass rusher first and didn't set the edge that well and wasn't all that in coverage. He still isn't but he sets the edge well and his step has slowed but it's still very good. 

Calhoun has a better first step than I gave him credit. I don't know what member I told he didn't but I owe then an apology. I wish I knew who because I'd call myself out on it. I'm too lazy and busy to go looking though.

I think Calhoun's issue is his timing. He's quick off the ball and isn't that good setting the edge but he has a nice repertoire of pass rush moves but his timing is inconsistent. He could be a great pass rusher. I've watched a lot of him lately and I'll be the first to admit I didn't like him after liking him last year. I thought he was slow but I've concluded it's really inconsistent snap timing. 

Ah, that may have been me ^^ I at least remember Flex telling me the exact same thing about Calhoun's first step, maybe you were in the discussion, can't remember...

Now that we're at it, I'll keep on saying he's had a lot of difficulties against bigger OT, I think it was against Taylor Decker that I saw him being completely erased, I even stopped watching at one point because it was getting boring. Maybe if that can be worked on he can become an effective pass rusher in this league. I liked the Tamba Hali comp.

[GrimCoconut]

6 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Ah, that may have been me ^^ I at least remember Flex telling me the exact same thing about Calhoun's first step, maybe you were in the discussion, can't remember...

Now that we're at it, I'll keep on saying he's had a lot of difficulties against bigger OT, I think it was against Taylor Decker that I saw him being completely erased, I even stopped watching at one point because it was getting boring. Maybe if that can be worked on he can become an effective pass rusher in this league. I liked the Tamba Hali comp.

I think it was you. I apologize. I think I was wrong. I recall you saying he seemed like he was inconsistent in his timing and after looking for that I saw something similar. I still don't love him but I don't think he's as bad as I originally thought. 

[Prino61]

21 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I don't see Ramsey as a pure cb but more of a guy that the dc has to build his defense around and maximize his potential. Vh3 I think is the best corner, and I think He may end up the Best in the league. His instincts in off man are incredible and his closing speed and ability to vault himself to the ball are all very ideal tools. I don't think he's the cb that qbs just ignore, I think he's the cb that makes the qb think he has a completion and ends up forcing the turnover instead. A wr might look open against him until the qb gets ready to release then suddenly he's got his hands on the ball, a tall wr might look like has the advantage but If that ball isn't dropped perfectly out of his reach and into the breadbasket then he can make a play because of his great hops and body control

I agree 100%

[Jacquouille]

10 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think it was you. I apologize. I think I was wrong. I recall you saying he seemed like he was inconsistent in his timing and after looking for that I saw something similar. I still don't love him but I don't think he's as bad as I originally thought. 

No need to apologize lol! No, I believe it was Flex saying his timing was inconsistent, I was saying I thought his first step was really good (and after watching some more tape, I still believe it is one of the best in the class)

[sflegend89]

13 hours ago, edthehead said:

I would not take him  @ 6 maybe trade back a bit,

his height came in at 5'9" - 5'10"

its only an inch but he is short this is why he might drop a little out the top 10

Joe Haden and Chris Harris Jr say hi

[Dewy101]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I like buckner, but I have them ranked essentially the exact same. Both are high floor and high ceiling guys. With buckner I really don't like that he doesn't have a consistent lean, I think he's good enough in all aspects to be effective despite that, but long and tall DLs without natural lean concern me, they have a tendency to get stood up or put on skates against interior linemen. I think vh3s concerns over his height and reach are far overblown but buckners lack of consistent lean is real, so I find vh3 the safer prospect overall and looking at our team I think He provides the biggest impact and upgrade. It was a close call though because i like buckner for this team a lot and I think the ravens do too, I just don't know if they're gonna invest in another DT/DE with this high pick unless he's clear cut BPA

I think he is BPA. He's going to be more productive in the NFL than he was in college just because he won't be asked to play 100+ snaps a game. I just can't shake what Calvin Ridley and Amari Cooper did to VH3. I've seen Buckner manhandle Goshua Garnett and hold his own against Conklin all while playing in a scheme that doesn't show his strengths. Seeing how productive Armstead was last season I think Buckner is twice the player he is. I think Buckners an all pro starting day 1 with our scheme. I think he's our guy at 6 if another team doesn't take him

[JoeyFlex5]

19 minutes ago, Dewy101 said:

I think he is BPA. He's going to be more productive in the NFL than he was in college just because he won't be asked to play 100+ snaps a game. I just can't shake what Calvin Ridley and Amari Cooper did to VH3. I've seen Buckner manhandle Goshua Garnett and hold his own against Conklin all while playing in a scheme that doesn't show his strengths. Seeing how productive Armstead was last season I think Buckner is twice the player he is. I think Buckners an all pro starting day 1 with our scheme. I think he's our guy at 6 if another team doesn't take him

He had a shaky game against Ridley but the game against Cooper is overblown, he followed his zone assignments and Cooper capitalized. He really only got the best of vh3 on a 50/50 balls in the red zone and vh3 literally couldn't have done any more to make the play, he was in perfect position and got both hands on the ball and Cooper just made a spectacular play, otherwise Cooper had a pedestrian statline on plays where vh3 was directly responsible for his coopers zone or in man coverage. 

 

The Ridley game was bad but you can't judge a player on one bad game, otherwise Kevin dodd is the top overall pick lol. And if that's the worst complain on vh3 then I'd say he's quite good. As for buckner, nobody is gonna argue here lol I think he's a stud, I just think vh3 is a consummate harbaugh guy and he represents the biggest impact. You may thibk A little higher of buckner than I do but that's ok because we all have opinions, his lack of lean and leverage will cause inconsistencies and possibly cause him to disappear from games where he faces mauling shorter linemen.

[Stevin]

i think tapper will be drafted in 3rd. i like him but it will be hard to get him in late 4.
i'm not sure about your wr  pick. didn't see him much .
but overall i like it . good job )

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, Stevin said:

i think tapper will be drafted in 3rd. i like him but it will be hard to get him in late 4.
i'm not sure about your wr  pick. didn't see him much .
but overall i like it . good job )

Hmm, I'm not sure I see anyone taking tapper in the 3rd. He's a long term project at best and not every team is as confident as we are at churning out defensive linemen. He is very far from a fieldable product but I think the ravens are a team that's totally ok with that in the 4th

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Hmm, I'm not sure I see anyone taking tapper in the 3rd. He's a long term project at best and not every team is as confident as we are at churning out defensive linemen. He is very far from a fieldable product but I think the ravens are a team that's totally ok with that in the 4th

I recall reading somewhere that he could go in the 3rd round. It was an article somewhere. I may need to go dig it up. I personally find that a bit rich for him. 

[Jacquouille]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He had a shaky game against Ridley but the game against Cooper is overblown, he followed his zone assignments and Cooper capitalized. He really only got the best of vh3 on a 50/50 balls in the red zone and vh3 literally couldn't have done any more to make the play, he was in perfect position and got both hands on the ball and Cooper just made a spectacular play, otherwise Cooper had a pedestrian statline on plays where vh3 was directly responsible for his coopers zone or in man coverage. 

True, I think his stats were 30yds and 1TD, very pedestrian for a guy like Cooper. Plus I recall Cooper tipping his hat to Hargreaves on Twitter after their matchup, saying he was by far the best CB he had to face. There's no denying VH3's talent.

Personally all I'm wondering about is his durability. He really lays big hit and with that body, I'm worried about how he can hold up. Anyway, I'm still on the Buckner's side because we would have such a dominant front 3, and I think that's the most important if you want to put constant pressure on the QB (just watch Denver). Buckner has his issues, but our coaches can definitely arrange that, quickly. I don't think Clarence Brooks has ever coached a guy with so many upsides, I'm really believing he's got an All Time Great potential.

[JoeyFlex5]

37 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

True, I think his stats were 30yds and 1TD, very pedestrian for a guy like Cooper. Plus I recall Cooper tipping his hat to Hargreaves on Twitter after their matchup, saying he was by far the best CB he had to face. There's no denying VH3's talent.

Personally all I'm wondering about is his durability. He really lays big hit and with that body, I'm worried about how he can hold up. Anyway, I'm still on the Buckner's side because we would have such a dominant front 3, and I think that's the most important if you want to put constant pressure on the QB (just watch Denver). Buckner has his issues, but our coaches can definitely arrange that, quickly. I don't think Clarence Brooks has ever coached a guy with so many upsides, I'm really believing he's got an All Time Great potential.

We've definitely never had that upside, but I think buckner has one issue and it can't be coached, and that's his lean, it doesn't come naturally for him, and it won't make him a bad player at all I still think he'll be dominant but it limits his ceiling as a pass rusher I think. If we're comparing ceilings and floors here I think they're about equal, i just think of were talking about turning this team around then vh3 is a great start. We move Webb to safety and now cb is an even bigger question mark. We hope Jimmy stays healthy, we hope Wright continues his solid play, but that still is 2 question marks and a big fat unknown at a position that essentially needs 3 starters, so if vh3 and buckner are equally graded then you take the bigger need. 

 

Let's also not underestimate depth, turning shareece Wright into a rotational cb would up his impact big time, instead of seeing and average corner play average against #1s we could let 2 great corners face the top guys and let Wright really shine as a 3rd. Turning average starters into depth players by replacing them with elite players is how you build a successful team and depth is often what separate contenders from pretenders. Buckner does that as well but I don't think it has quite the same impact. 

 

Now if there was an OLB on the board of equal grade then give me him, but I dont think buckner affects our pass rush as well as many think. I actually think Lawson would do more to bring immediate pass rush boost than Buckner. 

 

Rock and a hard place really, either one will upgrade the defense significantly I just think there are too many question marks at cb for us to take a DTDE over an elite cb if they are graded equally

[LordRavens]

19 hours ago, Dewy101 said:

Why VH3 over Buckner?

I'm getting sick of hearing about Deforest overrated Buckner 

[JoeyFlex5]

With the way my top 5 plays out here, it's tough to predict Ozzie. Vh3, zeke, and buckner could all be the pick, and I'm not sure I could say any are most likely. And realistically between those 3 it's hard to justify one over the other. If Ozzie wants to get creative and go pure bpa without considering positional value then I think we go zeke, if we want to really add a dominant  and imposing force then we go buckner, but if we want to quickly turn the defense around then we go vh3. In this case I'm saying we try to quickly do a 180 on defense because we are sick of seeing our secondary play so disgusting

[RavensDieHard21]

20 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

True, I think his stats were 30yds and 1TD, very pedestrian for a guy like Cooper. Plus I recall Cooper tipping his hat to Hargreaves on Twitter after their matchup, saying he was by far the best CB he had to face. There's no denying VH3's talent.

Personally all I'm wondering about is his durability. He really lays big hit and with that body, I'm worried about how he can hold up. Anyway, I'm still on the Buckner's side because we would have such a dominant front 3, and I think that's the most important if you want to put constant pressure on the QB (just watch Denver). Buckner has his issues, but our coaches can definitely arrange that, quickly. I don't think Clarence Brooks has ever coached a guy with so many upsides, I'm really believing he's got an All Time Great potential.

I mean just the thought of having Buckner next to Williams and Jernigan is terrifying. They will easily occupy at least 4 blockers on every down and if not, one of those players will easily be able to have their way in shutting down the run or collapsing the pocket. Buckner with proper coaching is a +10 sack a year player that makes our edge rushers happy as they constantly get 1 on 1 matchups

[nishadrahman13]

17 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

With the way my top 5 plays out here, it's tough to predict Ozzie. Vh3, zeke, and buckner could all be the pick, and I'm not sure I could say any are most likely. And realistically between those 3 it's hard to justify one over the other. If Ozzie wants to get creative and go pure bpa without considering positional value then I think we go zeke, if we want to really add a dominant  and imposing force then we go buckner, but if we want to quickly turn the defense around then we go vh3. In this case I'm saying we try to quickly do a 180 on defense because we are sick of seeing our secondary play so disgusting

I think the solution to our secondary is pass rush, even more so than corner talent. If Buckner can be an 8-10 sacks a year type of player, I'd take him over Hargreaves. I'm just not sure that he can be that guy.

[Jacquouille]

55 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I mean just the thought of having Buckner next to Williams and Jernigan is terrifying. They will easily occupy at least 4 blockers on every down and if not, one of those players will easily be able to have their way in shutting down the run or collapsing the pocket. Buckner with proper coaching is a +10 sack a year player that makes our edge rushers happy as they constantly get 1 on 1 matchups

Cheers!

 

(but maybe not +10 sacks, if he gets 8-10 I'd be very happy)