BmoreBird22's Second Mock Draft

[Edgar]

Well, I can't say your draft doesn't have great players because it does. Some are optimistic as has been pointed out.

I pointed out awhile ago that Elliot would be the best player on the board and may well be our pick.

If you consider again DeCostas expressions; "playmaker" and "instant coffee", there aren't too many players who truly fit the bill. Elliot does,no doubt.

There have been some negative reports about this guy as a teammate and off the field.

I also think the ravens pounce on a safety in round two if Neal or Joseph's are there.

Nice mock.

[52520Andrew]

I am not a fan of using our highest pick since 2000 on a position that really is not hard to find. I think Elliott is good but he isn't THAT good.

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

I am not a fan of using our highest pick since 2000 on a position that really is not hard to find. I think Elliott is good but he isn't THAT good.

A rb like Elliott is hard to find. As you can see we have carried tons of rbs since rice left and were dumpster diving for Trent Richardson. While I agree that rb isn't necessarily a 6th overall value, Elliott could be far and away the BPA and he would have a massive impact on this team

 

think of the difference it would have made last year, if a rb picked up one more blitz to allow a conversion, converted a 3rd and short, and turned 2 or 3 dumpoffs into solid gains each week, that alone probably wins us every game that we lost by 1 possession. That's not even factoring in the difference in time of possession because he's a smart rb who can keep the clock on our side.

Edited March 27, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[52520Andrew]

17 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

A rb like Elliott is hard to find. As you can see we have carried tons of rbs since rice left and were dumpster diving for Trent Richardson. While I agree that rb isn't necessarily a 6th overall value, Elliott could be far and away the BPA and he would have a massive impact on this team

 

think of the difference it would have made last year, if a rb picked up one more blitz to allow a conversion, converted a 3rd and short, and turned 2 or 3 dumpoffs into solid gains each week, that alone probably wins us every game that we lost by 1 possession. That's not even factoring in the difference in time of possession because he's a smart rb who can keep the clock on our side.

You can play that game with any position though. If Jensen held a block, Joe doesn't tear his ACL. I see RBs taken later every year go and do well and while people like to argue that these first round RBs are safe, there have been quite a few that have busted pretty bad. I also don't think Elliott is BPA, I'd be open to him in a trade back but I have 6 guys I like more.

[thieverycorporation]

The Zeke would most definitely fill BPA @ six and he could be the outlier as far position of need. He could be counted on to bail Flacco out while as he will need time to re-adjust to the newly repaired knee and could serve as a top notch release valve in the run first zone block scheme. Would I do if I was Ozzie. Yep. Would I do it as the GM. Probably not, solely because I favor Hargreaves as the compliment to Weddle and strong possibility of getting Cravens. If the age experiment with Webb doesn't go as planned I have the swiss army pieces on a snap count basis in preparation for the eventual. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by thieverycorporation

[JoeyFlex5]

5 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

You can play that game with any position though. If Jensen held a block, Joe doesn't tear his ACL. I see RBs taken later every year go and do well and while people like to argue that these first round RBs are safe, there have been quite a few that have busted pretty bad. I also don't think Elliott is BPA, I'd be open to him in a trade back but I have 6 guys I like more.

If you say Elliott won't be in consideration for bpa at 6 then you aren't actually talking about the player, you're talking about the position, and you're severely devaluing him because he's a rb, not because he isn't actually the best player on the board. 

 

Leveon bell and gio bernard is the last 2 rbs I've seen taken outside of the first that are dependable on 3rd down. The difference between a pure runner and a rb who is elite at every single aspect is a huge difference, and Elliott runs like a first rounder and does everything else in a rbs job far better than any college back I've ever seen.

[thieverycorporation]

@bb22- I like the mock personally.

Not much not to like. I do question the Ward pick.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 minutes ago, thieverycorporation said:

The Zeke would most definitely fill BPA @ six and he could be the outlier as far position of need. He could be counted on to bail Flacco out while as he will need time to re-adjust to the newly repaired knee and could serve as a top notch release valve in the run first zone block scheme. Would I do if I was Ozzie. Yep. Would I do it as the GM. Probably not,  solely because I favor Hargreaves as the compliment to Weddle and strong possibility of getting Cravens. If the age experiment with Webb doesn't go as planned I have the swiss army snaps in preparation for the eventual. 

I like how you approach this. What would Ozzie do and what would you do lol. 

 

I also like vh3 at 6 but I'll be the first to admit he shouldnt get bpa over elliott, he gets the nod due to need and value.

[52520Andrew]

Just now, JoeyFlex5 said:

If you say Elliott won't be in consideration for bpa at 6 then you aren't actually talking about the player, you're talking about the position, and you're severely devaluing him because he's a rb, not because he isn't actually the best player on the board. 

 

Leveon bell and gio bernard is the last 2 rbs I've seen taken outside of the first that are dependable on 3rd down. The difference between a pure runner and a rb who is elite at every single aspect is a huge difference, and Elliott runs like a first rounder and does everything else in a rbs job far better than any college back I've ever seen.

Elliott is not elite at everything though. He is a solid player with no real holes but there is nothing in particular that he does that is elite. He is not an elite pass catcher(in fact people have questions about it), he does not have elite speed, he does not have elite power. He has good vision and pass blocking(so does Taliaferro for all that is worth)

As for RBs that have done well, lets see. Foster, CJ Anderson, Chris Ivory, David Johnson, Gio and Bell obviously, Lamar Miller, Dion Lewis with the Pats could have a great year catching passes, Theo Riddick caught the most passes of all RBs last year, Vereen, Hill, McCoy, Murray, Sproles, Freeman, Lacy, Forte, I could go on. RBs pretty much grow on trees and the only way I take one in the top 10 is if they are a future HOFer. 

And I would take Bosa, Tunsil, Hargreaves, Jack, Buckner, and Ramsey over him. Positional value has nothing to do with it. I think they are better players.

[RaineV1]

46 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

I am not a fan of using our highest pick since 2000 on a position that really is not hard to find. I think Elliott is good but he isn't THAT good.

There's a bit of irony to this statement since we did pick a RB with that high pick back in 2000, and he played a big role in getting the Ravens a Super Bowl win.

[52520Andrew]

1 minute ago, RaineV1 said:

There's a bit of irony to this statement since we did pick a RB with that high pick back in 2000, and he played a big role in getting the Ravens a Super Bowl win.

He did but it also was Jamaal who was a stud for us. If Elliott does what Jamal did then I'd be fine with it. Not many people can take that sort of abuse though either and it wore even Jamal down.

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

There's a bit of irony to this statement since we did pick a RB with that high pick back in 2000, and he played a big role in getting the Ravens a Super Bowl win.

It's a different NFL now, though.  The days of a bellcow at the position are pretty much over.  It's a heavily rotated position nowadays.

[JoeyFlex5]

21 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Elliott is not elite at everything though. He is a solid player with no real holes but there is nothing in particular that he does that is elite. He is not an elite pass catcher(in fact people have questions about it), he does not have elite speed, he does not have elite power. He has good vision and pass blocking(so does Taliaferro for all that is worth)

As for RBs that have done well, lets see. Foster, CJ Anderson, Chris Ivory, David Johnson, Gio and Bell obviously, Lamar Miller, Dion Lewis with the Pats could have a great year catching passes, Theo Riddick caught the most passes of all RBs last year, Vereen, Hill, McCoy, Murray, Sproles, Freeman, Lacy, Forte, I could go on. RBs pretty much grow on trees and the only way I take one in the top 10 is if they are a future HOFer. 

And I would take Bosa, Tunsil, Hargreaves, Jack, Buckner, and Ramsey over him. Positional value has nothing to do with it. I think they are better players.

Of course you would take those guys over him. They're the guys that are above him in terms of bpa, except for vh3 and buckner maybe, the other guys are the only ones who are undisputedly better talents and they have a very slim chance of falling to us any way. 

 

Zeke is a complete package which makes him elite. So you'd rather have a guy who bowls people over at an "elite" level but only finds holes half the time and can't pick up a blitz and has no breakaway speed? You want your rb to be really good at one thing and nothing else? That doesn't make sense to me but whatever floats your boat

[52520Andrew]

10 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Of course you would take those guys over him. They're the guys that are above him in terms of bpa, except for vh3 and buckner maybe, the other guys are the only ones who are undisputedly better talents and they have a very slim chance of falling to us any way. 

 

Zeke is a complete package which makes him elite. So you'd rather have a guy who bowls people over at an "elite" level but only finds holes half the time and can't pick up a blitz and has no breakaway speed? You want your rb to be really good at one thing and nothing else? That doesn't make sense to me but whatever floats your boat

Well one of those guys is guarenteed to be there and if Wentz goes we will have our choice of 2 of them.

I'd rather a guy who can do it all at an elite level ideally obviously or can do it all but has something in particular that is their trump card. If I wanted someone who could do one thing well I'd take Henry at #6 so don't try to put words in my mouth. Elliott is a solid RB but Bell has elite vision, AP is elite at a few things, Charles has elite speed, Gurley's blend of speed and power is something else, Lynch has elite power, Elliott is not at their level.

[JoeyFlex5]

23 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

Well one of those guys is guarenteed to be there and if Wentz goes we will have our choice of 2 of them.

I'd rather a guy who can do it all at an elite level ideally obviously or can do it all but has something in particular that is their trump card. If I wanted someone who could do one thing well I'd take Henry at #6 so don't try to put words in my mouth. Elliott is a solid RB but Bell has elite vision, AP is elite at a few things, Charles has elite speed, Gurley's blend of speed and power is something else, Lynch has elite power, Elliott is not at their level.

AP is a rare breed, he's a first ballot hall of famer in a generation where passing rules the nfl, so let's make him the outlier. Charles has elite breakaway speed but also had good patience and solid power, lynch does everything very well in a perfect system behind a good line, bell does everything at an elite level, Gurley is a special back and I wanted him last year so I won't argue there.

 

On the other hand, let's look at Ray rice, he had elite elusiveness and catching, but was horrible in terms of blitz pickup which resulted a lot of strip sacks while he was here, he had horrible vision, and wasn't decisive, when we faced any team with a good interior he was rendered useless because he would run into a pile for 1 yard and go down, he wasn't a consistent back nor was he dependable, we got a lot out of him only because we found his niche and exploited it and he was able to break off a long run once per week typically. Lesean McCoy is practically the same exact scenario. Demarco Murray has elite power and upfield cut, he only succeeded behind the cowboys dominant line and has failed miserably in philly, eddie lacy has possibly the most powerful running in the league but he is extremely inconsistent because he can't do anything else well, Alfred Morris is a pro bowler with elite power and patience but he sucks at everything else and is now seen as expendable to a team who he carried for 3 years. 

 

I get what you're saying, but guys that do one thing at an elite level and are average everywhere else can be stopped with gameplanning(except for ap). Guys like lynch, Gore, gurley, bell, they make their offenses go, and as much as I love flacco, he's no manning or Brady or brees, so a RB of that ilk could be the difference between a consistent, methodical, drive down and score top 10 offense or an offense that sputtera and stalls for entire halves and barely finishes middle of the pack. 

 

I understand your argument. I like a player to be dominant at one thing that they model their game on, however I think a rb that can play smart and consistent in every aspect is a real game changer and a guy that touches the ball 20+ times a week needs to be able to do everything well so that they can make the most of every snap instead of being a liability in certain situations that their game isn't suited for.

[thieverycorporation]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I like how you approach this. What would Ozzie do and what would you do lol. 

 

I also like vh3 at 6 but I'll be the first to admit he shouldnt get bpa over elliott, he gets the nod due to need and value.

Agreed. Elliot is a great pick @ 6th however I'm of the persuasion that Great Value exist in the early fourth round. I'm grabbing CJ.Prosise or K.Drake. Both have shown a more then adequate skill set with running and hands. Either one of them could easily eclipse Zeke in our system. I don't see the next Gurly in Zeke that would make him as valuable to me @ six. His tape and few games I watched I'd say my grandmother could ripped thru. The O- line quite often looked like the true highlight reel. 

[Somerset Ravens]

44 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Of course you would take those guys over him. They're the guys that are above him in terms of bpa, except for vh3 and buckner maybe, the other guys are the only ones who are undisputedly better talents and they have a very slim chance of falling to us any way. 

 

Zeke is a complete package which makes him elite. So you'd rather have a guy who bowls people over at an "elite" level but only finds holes half the time and can't pick up a blitz and has no breakaway speed? You want your rb to be really good at one thing and nothing else? That doesn't make sense to me but whatever floats your boat

No doubt Elliott is a top 15 talent, where he falls within the top 15 is debatable. The one thing I wonder about is his maturity. His childish outburst after the loss to Michigan State was embarrassing. He was cited for driving on a suspended license after a December auto accident. The suspended license resulted from not paying the fine from a speeding ticket. He chose to fight the speeding ticket but failed to show for his first two court dates. These items are not major events but they make you wonder how responsible he is and how he will behave after receiving a big signing bonus.

[thieverycorporation]

3 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Well one of those guys is guarenteed to be there and if Wentz goes we will have our choice of 2 of them.

I'd rather a guy who can do it all at an elite level ideally obviously or can do it all but has something in particular that is their trump card. If I wanted someone who could do one thing well I'd take Henry at #6 so don't try to put words in my mouth. Elliott is a solid RB but Bell has elite vision, AP is elite at a few things, Charles has elite speed, Gurley's blend of speed and power is something else, Lynch has elite power, Elliott is not at their level.

I agree with your summation of Elliott. I'm not sold and I wouldn't take him even after trading back. The best runningback will come out the late third early fourth. Let the Cowboys take him. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by thieverycorporation

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Of course you would take those guys over him. They're the guys that are above him in terms of bpa, except for vh3 and buckner maybe, the other guys are the only ones who are undisputedly better talents and they have a very slim chance of falling to us any way. 

 

Zeke is a complete package which makes him elite. So you'd rather have a guy who bowls people over at an "elite" level but only finds holes half the time and can't pick up a blitz and has no breakaway speed? You want your rb to be really good at one thing and nothing else? That doesn't make sense to me but whatever floats your boat

Being well rounded =/= elite.

[thieverycorporation]

5 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

No doubt Elliott is a top 15 talent, where he falls within the top 15 is debatable. The one thing I wonder about is his maturity. His childish outburst after the loss to Michigan State was embarrassing. He was cited for driving on a suspended license after a December auto accident. The suspended license resulted from not paying the fine from a speeding ticket. He chose to fight the speeding ticket but failed to show for his first two court dates. These items are not major events but they make you wonder how responsible he is and how he will behave after receiving a big signing bonus.

The what the rookie symposium is for. To address the needed changes in ones personal life that are warranted (no pun intended). 

[52520Andrew]

47 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

AP is a rare breed, he's a first ballot hall of famer in a generation where passing rules the nfl, so let's make him the outlier. Charles has elite breakaway speed but also had good patience and solid power, lynch does everything very well in a perfect system behind a good line, bell does everything at an elite level, Gurley is a special back and I wanted him last year so I won't argue there.

 

On the other hand, let's look at Ray rice, he had elite elusiveness and catching, but was horrible in terms of blitz pickup which resulted a lot of strip sacks while he was here, he had horrible vision, and wasn't decisive, when we faced any team with a good interior he was rendered useless because he would run into a pile for 1 yard and go down, he wasn't a consistent back nor was he dependable, we got a lot out of him only because we found his niche and exploited it and he was able to break off a long run once per week typically. Lesean McCoy is practically the same exact scenario. Demarco Murray has elite power and upfield cut, he only succeeded behind the cowboys dominant line and has failed miserably in philly, eddie lacy has possibly the most powerful running in the league but he is extremely inconsistent because he can't do anything else well, Alfred Morris is a pro bowler with elite power and patience but he sucks at everything else and is now seen as expendable to a team who he carried for 3 years. 

 

I get what you're saying, but guys that do one thing at an elite level and are average everywhere else can be stopped with gameplanning(except for ap). Guys like lynch, Gore, gurley, bell, they make their offenses go, and as much as I love flacco, he's no manning or Brady or brees, so a RB of that ilk could be the difference between a consistent, methodical, drive down and score top 10 offense or an offense that sputtera and stalls for entire halves and barely finishes middle of the pack. 

 

I understand your argument. I like a player to be dominant at one thing that they model their game on, however I think a rb that can play smart and consistent in every aspect is a real game changer and a guy that touches the ball 20+ times a week needs to be able to do everything well so that they can make the most of every snap instead of being a liability in certain situations that their game isn't suited for.

And I need my RB to be that if I am spending such a high pick on them. 

Those guys have all done well though and i trust in the Ravens to find a good RB. I mean the Cowboys made Darren McFadden the 4th leading rusher in the NFL this year(another first round bust at an apparently safe position). We picked up Justin Forsett off the street and got great production out of him in 2014. Why waste our first top 10 pick in years on a position where production can easily be found? 

I get the arguement that Flacco needs more help but a defense would be just as helpful if not more here and having a chance to get a stud on that side of the field(or a dominant LT if Tunsil falls(see pink font pledge)) and getting by at RB to me does us better than getting a good RB and not having much on defense. Lack of leadership on defense was a giant void for us last year and this is our best opportunity in a Long time to fill that void. 

Elliott to me is a good but not great player and while I would be more than happy getting him in a trade back, I don't like him enough to take him at 6. Take a look at NFL teams. Having no holes is important but if your team doesn't have something to put you over the top then how can you be the best? Plenty of Super Bowl winners have had holes at certain positions but win because elite players put them over the top. When is the last time a team won a Super Bowl with no elite players on the roster?

[Raven'evermore]

 I pushed a bit for Elliott earlier this month and got negged twice for it.  Oh well.  The one thing that I don't think was brought up about him unlike Gurley is he doesn't have any health issues.  Also, he's fast.  Imagine dcs trying to defend against all that speed on the field with Perriman and Wallace on the sidelines  and Elliott in the backfield.  I am still a bit hesitant taking him with the 6th pick.  Would rather trade down to 15 and get an extra 2nd or maybe even two 2nds.  Get Spriggs and shore up that left side.  Maybe Alexander will still be there as well.  Then again, maybe Elliott won't be there at 15 either.  Hard to say what to do.

[ravensdan]

1 hour ago, 52520Andrew said:

And I need my RB to be that if I am spending such a high pick on them. 

Those guys have all done well though and i trust in the Ravens to find a good RB. I mean the Cowboys made Darren McFadden the 4th leading rusher in the NFL this year(another first round bust at an apparently safe position). We picked up Justin Forsett off the street and got great production out of him in 2014. Why waste our first top 10 pick in years on a position where production can easily be found? 

I get the arguement that Flacco needs more help but a defense would be just as helpful if not more here and having a chance to get a stud on that side of the field(or a dominant LT if Tunsil falls(see pink font pledge)) and getting by at RB to me does us better than getting a good RB and not having much on defense. Lack of leadership on defense was a giant void for us last year and this is our best opportunity in a Long time to fill that void. 

Elliott to me is a good but not great player and while I would be more than happy getting him in a trade back, I don't like him enough to take him at 6. Take a look at NFL teams. Having no holes is important but if your team doesn't have something to put you over the top then how can you be the best? Plenty of Super Bowl winners have had holes at certain positions but win because elite players put them over the top. When is the last time a team won a Super Bowl with no elite players on the roster?

Elliott is most certainly a difference making player. I don't know how anyone could possibly think otherwise. You can argue the general value of the position. But he can do it all. He is a great runner both inside and out. Woukd fit perfectly in Ravens run scheme. He's an all around feature back. Of which there are few in the league. However those few can change the outcome of games. And i certainly put him squarely in the top 6 difference making players. There is definitely no other skill player close. 

[52520Andrew]

17 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

Elliott is most certainly a difference making player. I don't know how anyone could possibly think otherwise. You can argue the general value of the position. But he can do it all. He is a great runner both inside and out. Woukd fit perfectly in Ravens run scheme. He's an all around feature back. Of which there are few in the league. However those few can change the outcome of games. And i certainly put him squarely in the top 6 difference making players. There is definitely no other skill player close. 

But what puts him over the top? What puts him on the level of the Le'Veon Bells of the NFL? I can't pick just a good RB in the top 10, they have to be a special player and while I think Elliott is good, I have yet to be sold on him being great.

[ravensdan]

1 minute ago, 52520Andrew said:

But what puts him over the top? What puts him on the level of the Le'Veon Bells of the NFL? I can't pick just a good RB in the top 10, they have to be a special player and while I think Elliott is good, I have yet to be sold on him being great.

Well he's still a prospect. They all are so there are no guarantees. But I don't see what there is Bell can do that he can't. That's my comp for him. But not coming out. Bell played nothing like he does in the pros at Michigan state. Elliot could actually be better than Bell inside. He's shown that potential. 

[52520Andrew]

7 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

Well he's still a prospect. They all are so there are no guarantees. But I don't see what there is Bell can do that he can't. That's my comp for him. But not coming out. Bell played nothing like he does in the pros at Michigan state. Elliot could actually be better than Bell inside. He's shown that potential. 

I don't see the pass catching ability that Bell has for starters. Bell made CJ Mosley look silly trying to cover him in 2014. Bell also has amazing vision and is an incredibly patient runner. I just don't see a guy who is so good that it is worth ignoring the positional value to take him at 6 and that is what it would have to be for me.

[BmoreBird22]

With Elliot, you're probably not going to find a better runner than him in later rounds. Sure, you can find good runners (like a Justin Forsett), but you won't find his combination of elite change of direction, elite vision, and elite footwork. As a runner, there's probably not much he can't do for the ZBS and that's the difference with a Justin Forsett or an Arian Foster 2010 season where he pretty much carried that offense.

I may have gotten a tad carried away and exaggerated his pass catching a bit, but he's very capable and shows enough that he could probably be utilized in the slot. As a blocker, he's probably the most well refined of any of the running backs in the draft.

Sure, you can find a running back in every single round, but when you think of some of the best running backs in the NFL (Lynch, Gurley, Bell, Martin, Bell, Charles, Peterson), they're drafted in the first two rounds and three of those names alone were top 10 picks. If you want the all around package and that elite game changer, you're gonna have to pay a high price. 

I bet if the Bills were given another chance to draft Lynch in the top 10, they would. I bet if the Vikings could draft Peterson at 6 again, they would. I bet if the Steelers were picking top 10, they'd feel good about taking Bell. I don't think the Rams will have any remorse over taking the OROY at 10 again. 

Fact of the matter is that you can find a good player at most positions at any level of the draft, but those game changers and game breakers are going to go high and I don't care about the perceived value of a position: If a player can break the game open, you take him.

[GrimCoconut]

I wouldn't pass on Elliott just because he's a RB because I think he offers a lot to the offense in areas we've struggled. I definitely don't like taking RBs high, but Gurley kinda made me re-evaluate my stance on it. I think Elliott is up there with Gurley honestly. He's a way better prospect than Gordon. 

[ravefan52]

I love Elliott and I think it he could end up being the pick. I feel like we'll go defense at least once in the first two rounds. Getting Fuller in the 3rd would make up for that, but it's also pretty optimistic. I really like the rest of the players.

[ravefan52]

14 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I wouldn't pass on Elliott just because he's a RB because I think he offers a lot to the offense in areas we've struggled. I definitely don't like taking RBs high, but Gurley kinda made me re-evaluate my stance on it. I think Elliott is up there with Gurley honestly. He's a way better prospect than Gordon. 

Elliott isn't quite on Gurley level for me, but he is close and worlds better than Gordon. Elliot would be a beast and a great fit in our division.