Debunking silly myths

[JoeyFlex5]

there are always myths on prospects that the mass majority seem to buy into when stupid analysts spout them off with no evidence to back up their claims. if you know of a myth youd like to debunk, please do so   

 

myth: joey bosa cant play in a 3-4. 

reason: what are you drafting bosa to do? if youre drafting him to play on the edge and then drop into coverage then its not bosa who cant play the scheme, its the DC who cant coach his talent. move the guy around and let him wreck the line from where ever he plays, stop making silly reasons to dislike great prospects 

 

myth: josh doctson catches contested balls well 

reason: fadeaway catching style and laying out for overthrown balls does not equate to catching contested passes, he has a playing style that i personally believe will fail him against NFL secondaries, he does have a hell of a talent at tracking and contorting to get his hands on the deep ball though, by far best in the class, he just doesnt quite do what many people seem to claim he does. 

 

myth: buckner brings interior pressure consistently 

reason: a lot of buckners pressures come against the tackle, he does better against guys who dont have the leverage advantage on him ie. tackles who tend to be much taller and longer than guards. if the guard is occupied and buckner is able to make the tackle overcommit the edge then he can bring the rush through the tackles inside shoulder very well, but you just dont see him bullrushing guards consistently, when he is tasked to crash inside he typically likes to shuffle around a lot looking for a gap or staying tall to block throwing lanes, and this is a very strong part of his game, however he just doesnt bring pressure up the gut as much as many people claim. 

 

anyone have any other popular opinions that they feel are myths?

[Maryland]

The 40 time being important (10-yard split and cone drill are much more important measurables for most players)

The bench press mattering a lot (a good sign, but not a deal-breaker)

[KBoum]

you intrigue me with this statement about Buckner. I thought he brount good pressure from the 3 tech. I'll go watch some tapes right now

[JoeyFlex5]

42 minutes ago, KBoum said:

you intrigue me with this statement about Buckner. I thought he brount good pressure from the 3 tech. I'll go watch some tapes right now

He does but not as much as he's hyped for. Basically people talk like he busts through the inside gaps like nkemdiche on a regular basis but his interior pressure just isn't as consistent as you would expect when hearing folks talk about him. For the record, I love buckner and would be thrilled with him at 6, If we took buckner at 6 there isn't a prospect that I would be bummed about passing up for him..

[KBoum]

yeah I get what you mean. gotta love his rip swim moves tho. he rushes outside a lot and sometimes bang quick move inside and can kill a passing play right away. still he's not disturbing a lot when facing double team blocks unlike JJ

[Dewy101]

You do realize Buckner played an insane amount of snap for a defensive lineman. Not to mention he played in a scheme that didn't show his strength. Often he lined up as a 4-3 DE. I don't think he's that in the NFL. He was far and away the best interior pass rusher in college football last season. He had 67 pressures last season highest of any interior pass rusher. He's going to be even more productive in the NFL where he actually gets a chance to rotate and stay fresh. 

[Dewy101]

39 minutes ago, KBoum said:

yeah I get what you mean. gotta love his rip swim moves tho. he rushes outside a lot and sometimes bang quick move inside and can kill a passing play right away. still he's not disturbing a lot when facing double team blocks unlike JJ

The JJ we know now isn't the the same JJ we saw in college. 

[JoeyFlex5]

Just now, Dewy101 said:

You do realize Buckner played an insane amount of snap for a defensive lineman. Not to mention he played in a scheme that didn't show his strength. Often he lined up as a 4-3 DE. I don't think he's that in the NFL. He was far and away the best interior pass rusher in college football last season. He had 67 pressures last season highest of any interior pass rusher. He's going to be even more productive in the NFL where he actually gets a chance to rotate and stay fresh. 

I realize all of this but watching film shows him shuffling around a lot when rushing against the guards rather than getting effective penetration. 

 

I've watched more of buckner than any prospect in this class, I love what I see, but the tape doesn't always confirm the common analysis, when you read up about buckner and his abilities you turn on the tape expecting to see a Aaron Donald levels of interior pressure and jj watt levels of raw powerful domination. 

 

Let's just say while he's e phenomenal prospect and a top 5 talent, his abilities are often overstated.

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, Dewy101 said:

The JJ we know now isn't the the same JJ we saw in college. 

He's not comparing jj from college. He's comparing a guy who projects to a 34DE to a current 34DE. And jj watt is hands down the hardest working and most intensely dedicated player in the league today, expecting a guy like buckner to turn into that is unfair expectations. 

 

And jj watt seems to be a common projection for both buckner and bosa, which highlights my point completely.

 

 

[Dewy101]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I realize all of this but watching film shows him shuffling around a lot when rushing against the guards rather than getting effective penetration. 

 

I've watched more of buckner than any prospect in this class, I love what I see, but the tape doesn't always confirm the common analysis, when you read up about buckner and his abilities you turn on the tape expecting to see a Aaron Donald levels of interior pressure and jj watt levels of raw powerful domination. 

 

Let's just say while he's e phenomenal prospect and a top 5 talent, his abilities are often overstated.

He's not the athlete they are. And he's about 15 pounds heavier than both of them. Compare JJs college tape to Buckners you'll see the same thing. JJ was nowhere near the player he is now. 

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, Dewy101 said:

He's not the athlete they are. And he's about 15 pounds heavier than both of them. Compare JJs college tape to Buckners you'll see the same thing. JJ was nowhere near the player he is now. 

I can't even talk with you man... Seriously... Do you just skim posts because you seem to miss the point every time you post something. I'm just not gonna bother anymore with you.

[Cillmatic]

Guess I'm the only one who thinks Buckner is overrated. When I watch him play against high competition I see someone who gets washed out of almost every play.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, Cillmatic said:

Guess I'm the only one who thinks Buckner is overrated. When I watch him play against high competition I see someone who gets washed out of almost every play.

I think he's really good but he isn't my favorite guy at #6. 

[Maryland]

2 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

Guess I'm the only one who thinks Buckner is overrated. When I watch him play against high competition I see someone who gets washed out of almost every play.

I agree that Buckner is overrated, and I share your criticism. He plays high, and he will get stood up by lesser players with better technique/leverage.

I would rather trade down if he's the BPA at #6

[Edgar]

What about that kid who died mixing pop rocks with Diet Coke? I'm pretty sure that's a myth.

[Cillmatic]

28 minutes ago, Maryland said:

I agree that Buckner is overrated, and I share your criticism. He plays high, and he will get stood up by lesser players with better technique/leverage.

I would rather trade down if he's the BPA at #6

Completely agree, if we draft him I'll be furious.

[Dewy101]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He's not comparing jj from college. He's comparing a guy who projects to a 34DE to a current 34DE. And jj watt is hands down the hardest working and most intensely dedicated player in the league today, expecting a guy like buckner to turn into that is unfair expectations. 

 

And jj watt seems to be a common projection for both buckner and bosa, which highlights my point completely.

 

 

Really I've seen a lot of Calais Campbell comparisons for Buckner and Jared Allen for Bosa. How can you compare college Buckner with NFL JJ watt it makes no sense. JJs had better coaching, nutrition, and training. Compare college JJ to college Buckner

Edited March 10, 2016 by Dewy101

[Dewy101]

4 hours ago, Cillmatic said:

Guess I'm the only one who thinks Buckner is overrated. When I watch him play against high competition I see someone who gets washed out of almost every play.

 

1 hour ago, Maryland said:

I agree that Buckner is overrated, and I share your criticism. He plays high, and he will get stood up by lesser players with better technique/leverage.

I would rather trade down if he's the BPA at #6

Ok last years draft Arik Armstead went to the 49ers with the 17th pick. He racked up 2 sacks, 6 hits, and 30 hurries last season. Buckner was already the better player had he come out in 2015. I think he even improved his game this past season leading the nation for interior pass rusher pressures. 

[RaineV1]

I think the comparison of Buckner to JJ is a bit lazy. JJ is simply the only 3-4 DE with instant name recognition so he's the one people instantly think of. It's not looking beyond him at the other effective players at that position that play in a similar style to Buckner. He really is a lot closer to Calais Campbell in terms of play style and what he's likely to do in the NFL.

[ALPHA]

I like comparisons of play style but not career trajectory, like X player did this so Y player will do the same, or Ozzy picks busts at WR so if we pick a WR with the first theyre going to bust, another popular one is Alabama prospects suck because previous ones didn't pan out.

[KBoum]

I compared JJ to Buckner only because JJ is the best if not the best DE at putting interior pressure even when facing double teams thats all. I said Buckner isn't so efficient facing double team (in college). The two don't compare at all. 

[JoeyFlex5]

7 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

I think the comparison of Buckner to JJ is a bit lazy. JJ is simply the only 3-4 DE with instant name recognition so he's the one people instantly think of. It's not looking beyond him at the other effective players at that position that play in a similar style to Buckner. He really is a lot closer to Calais Campbell in terms of play style and what he's likely to do in the NFL.

And that is exactly my point lol. Its myths made by lazy comparisons and a lack of film study. Every year tons of prospects have connotations tied to their name that just aren't true because analysts dont do their due diligence to really study them. I think buckner is in that boat, and while I know he commonly gets the Campbell comparison but he also gets a watt comparison just because he's a 34DE and bosa gets the comparison because they look similar in terms of build. 

 

This thread was just supposed to be about debunking the myths that have been put out there by bleacherreport and NFL.com analysts lol

[trevorsteadman]

In my opinion I just see teams and fans afraid of the next bust when they should be focused on what player has the tools and skills to play well around the other players you currently have. This includes physical and personality traits. I think a reason why there are so many busts in the NFL is because teams avoid certain players because of people thinking "bust" and then they get someone that doesn't fit as well with what they do. They also need to surround them with other decent players to play to their potential. In my opinion how you play your first couple seasons dictates most the time the success you will have in the NFL. Confidence drop off is huge for football players and after so many down years that leak in confidence comes out with you not working out so hard and not enjoying your job.

[Jacquouille]

I don't know if this is a "myth", but I would love it if analysts stopped listing Jaylon Smith and Scooby Wright as 3-4 OLBs and randomly mocking them to us as our next pas rushers, just because they blitzed well and played 4 snaps on the edge on 3rd downs.

[ALPHA]

1 minute ago, Jacquouille said:

I don't know if this is a "myth", but I would love it if analysts stopped listing Jaylon Smith and Scooby Wright as 3-4 OLBs and randomly mocking them to us as our next pas rushers, just because they blitzed well and played 4 snaps on the edge on 3rd downs.

Yeah thats lazy logic, "oh he's fast he can blitz he just needs to gain 20lb"

[PurpleNight12]

I completely agree with you about Buckner when I first heard about him I expected to go and see him destroying offensive linemen.  But he does get stuffed at the line more than people like to admit.  That comes from him not being able to get leverage inside.  He can get stoodup at the line and does not have the strength to rush all the time.  But I think he is very coachable and would still be a great pick at 6.  Just his pressure is not as great as we make it seem.  

[lgcs27288]

16 hours ago, Edgar said:

What about that kid who died mixing pop rocks with Diet Coke? I'm pretty sure that's a myth.

That's urban legend

[Jaybirds]

26 minutes ago, lgcs27288 said:

That's urban legend

What do the Buckeyes have to do with pop rocks and diet coke?  Though I guess that could explain their QB drama.