Overrated!

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, Italian Raven said:

I don't know who started the "triple-teamed" stuff first, but I doubt that person has watched the games completely unbiased. 
I've watched 7 OSU games and wrote down every position he lined up and every match-up he faced.. I didn't see 1 triple-team.
2014                    #snaps                 DoubleTeams            Unblocked
Clemson:              54                               5 (9%)                     4 (7%)
MSU:                     78                            13 (17%)                   1 (1%) 
Michigan (didn't finish it):  
2015
Hawaii:                   38                              5 (13%)                   1 (3%)
Penn St:                 49                              2 (4%)                     1 (2%)
Indiana:                  91                             10 (11%)                  8 (9%)                                   
MSU:                      65                               6 (9%)                    9 (14%)

Now, I'm not going to say he wasn't an impactful player; teams had to adjust to his presence.
He has an awesome punch and he might be very valuable playing the two gaps, controlling his man and patiently reading the play. He also has a good set of moves and he will be dangerous as an inside rusher.. no doubt.
But there have been many times he struggled on the edge: he took a line and because of his balance (today he proved to be a little bit of a leaner) he was easily pushed off the play creating a hole.
So, while he played many positions one can advocate that, because of his relative stiffness and balance, he might not fare as well rushing the passer from the outside than from inside.. that he's simply better playing 2-3-4 T rather than 5-6 or Leo.
 

I know where this stiff garbage is coming from.  Just because he is not always dipping and bending is not evidence of stiffness!!  Watch some of his tackles and rushes while he is in awkward positions where his muscles practically working in reverse. And he does not need to bend his knees or adjust his body position to reach for power to torque a blocker or ball carrier to the ground. He does it with power and suddenness and effortlessly. You can not accomplish that without flexibility, and twitchy power!! Watch Buckner a fine player himself need to bend his knees,reposition his body to reach for power to perform the same tackle or beat the blocker. Boss does not need to reach for his power. His only problem is he is so natural and good with his strong arms he is not needing to bend and dip very often. He needs a trainer to get him doing exercises,drills and practices to get him adjusted to using and maximize his flexibility and twitchy sudden power. Watt performs similar things. It is why I wanted the ravens to draft Jamie Collins. The power he can generate from awkward positions with suddenness like Bosa and Watt.He could be a top edge rusher if he played rush olb. Bosa just needs to be taught to use his flexibility.

[Italian Raven]

45 minutes ago, Willbacker said:

Ahhhh man you couldn't let me slide that in there lol. I do see him more as a 3-4 DE and on the line in general moreso than playing in space.

ahahah sorry man, I had to... nothing personal tho
and I agree, not saying he won't succeed on the edge anyway but I prefere him playing 3T than 5T, 

[Italian Raven]

Just now, Winchester said:

I know where this stiff garbage is coming from.  Just because he is not always dipping and bending is not evidence of stiffness!!  Watch some of his tackles and rushes while he is in awkward positions where his muscles practically working in reverse. And he does not need to bend his knees or adjust his body position to reach for power to torque a blocker or ball carrier to the ground. He does it with power and suddenness and effortlessly. You can not accomplish that without flexibility, and twitchy power!! Watch Buckner a fine player himself need to bend his knees,reposition his body to reach for power to perform the same tackle or beat the blocker. Boss does not need to reach for his power. His only problem is he is so natural and good with his strong arms he is not needing to bend and dip very often. He needs a trainer to get him doing exercises,drills and practices to get him adjusted to using and maximize his flexibility and twitchy sudden power. He could be a top edge rusher if he played rush olb. Bosa just needs to be taught to use his flexibility.

1.  What garbage? I spent time taking notes of every snap. You don't have to agree but I would like you to keep a polite line.. you know, like adults do when they intend to have a serious exchange of views.
2. The reason he doesn't look as consistent as on the inside using bullrushes or counters, is not only because of his dipping.. he just doesn't mantain contact with his man while running around the corner and, if you then add his stiffness/unability to get lower, he's quite easily pushed off.. I don't think that you can easily teach a little bit of flexibility and there you have a great OLB, as you make it sound like.
"he is so good with his strong arms he is not needing to bend and dip very often"... well..I think that physical limitations also come into equation there. He displayed them when falling to the ground on gameday, and slipping few times today.
 

[Winchester]

2 hours ago, Italian Raven said:

1.  What garbage? I spent time taking notes of every snap. You don't have to agree but I would like you to keep a polite line.. you know, like adults do when they intend to have a serious exchange of views.
2. The reason he doesn't look as consistent as on the inside using bullrushes or counters, is not only because of his dipping.. he just doesn't mantain contact with his man while running around the corner and, if you then add his stiffness/unability to get lower, he's quite easily pushed off.. I don't think that you can easily teach a little bit of flexibility and there you have a great OLB, as you make it sound like.
"he is so good with his strong arms he is not needing to bend and dip very often"... well..I think that physical limitations also come into equation there. He displayed them when falling to the ground on gameday, and slipping few times today.
 

Wrong and WRONG!! I was not referring to you. I was referring to scouts who just assume somebody can not do something just because he or she rarely does so!! It is one of biggest mistakes by scouts!! I watched a quarter of of an OSU game and realized Bosa is flexible and very sudden, he just likes to use his hands.like I posted this morning. Sure enough in his interview he said he likes to use his hands. It is not that he can't bend, he just prefers to win with his hands. Bosa is flexible enough to bend and flatten he just prefers a different style. It is more habit than flaw. When a muscular dude is not using heavy big weights at the it is not that he can not lift'em he just prefers lighter weights more controlled. Bradys armstrength was questioned because the offense did not ask for hard throws. Lucks armstrength was said to not be elite. He gets the NFL and can sling it 70 yards. Many receivers were labeled not get behind the dbacks threat but we're long ball threats in the NFL. it just was not their style in college. And some receivers were said to not be good in traffic, catching the ball high, and or no good after the catch yet showed it once in the NFL. When a player is not doing something in his play it is not always the result of physical limitations. Of course you can not teach flexibility to a stiff player but a flexible player could be taught to unlock his flexibility and add it to his play arsenal.  But he has shown flexibility and burst!! At his pro day he will run 4.75 or better and jump 35" or better. I will bet $$. He just is not a morning person like he said. I could see it standing on the sideline. He was awake and alert with help of coffee lol but was not himself and focused. Nkemdiche I like as well. Floyd could replaced Spence as top 10 pick. Nkemdiche and Spence could be ravens!! Nkemdiche andBosa would be awesome!!But Nkemdiche and Spence  would be good for ravens to.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Winchester

[gabefergy]

On 2/27/2016 at 10:33 AM, 52520Andrew said:

Bosa would be as much a waste in our system as McPhee was... wait McPhee was great with us in 2014

I remember saying when we  drafted McPhee I didn't get it because he looked like a 4-3 DE. To some degree I was right because it did take him a while to put it all together and he was moved around quite a bit, but in the end he was a great pick, especially in the 5th round.

Bosa is a far more athletic and refined McPhee. I still have yet to hear a good reason why he can't play OLB for us.

[gabefergy]

Bosa put up incredible numbers at the combine.

He destroyed the 20yd SS and 3C drill so any talk about him lacking agility and flexion are out of line.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 minute ago, gabefergy said:

I remember saying when we  drafted McPhee I didn't get it because he looked like a 4-3 DE. To some degree I was right because it did take him a while to put it all together and he was moved around quite a bit, but in the end he was a great pick, especially in the 5th round.

Bosa is a far more athletic and refined McPhee. I still have yet to hear a good reason why he can't play OLB for us.

While I think bosa absolutely fits in our system, I think he's more a hybrid guy than a OLB. He often depends on a hard lean to get leverage and generate push and he ends up losing balance and oddly we actually saw his lack of balance at the combine today, that's the only reason I wouldn't pencil him in as our full time OLB

[Winchester]

Bosa's balance was good just was trying to hard while still being half asleep. However have to talk about Floyd at pick6 now?? However I would prefer to trade down and get Spence then Nkemdiche

[gabefergy]

8 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Bosa's balance was good just was trying to hard while still being half asleep. However have to talk about Floyd at pick6 now?? However I would prefer to trade down and get Spence then Nkemdiche

I don't think the Ravens would really consider Floyd as an option at OLB. He's too skinny and poor vs the run.

[52520Andrew]

4 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I remember saying when we  drafted McPhee I didn't get it because he looked like a 4-3 DE. To some degree I was right because it did take him a while to put it all together and he was moved around quite a bit, but in the end he was a great pick, especially in the 5th round.

Bosa is a far more athletic and refined McPhee. I still have yet to hear a good reason why he can't play OLB for us.

Yeah I think Bosa would fit that role like a glove. He can keep Doom fresh on those early downs and then in nickel we can throw Suggs, Jernigan, Bosa, and Doom all out onto the field. Maybe after a year or 2 when we can shift Bosa outside full time as he would have a couple years to develop into that player.

[GrimCoconut]

17 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

Bosa put up incredible numbers at the combine.

He destroyed the 20yd SS and 3C drill so any talk about him lacking agility and flexion are out of line.

3C is the most important one the combine, IMO, for mostly all prospects. I always look at that one very closely. He killed that 3C. 

[gabefergy]

14 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

While I think bosa absolutely fits in our system, I think he's more a hybrid guy than a OLB. He often depends on a hard lean to get leverage and generate push and he ends up losing balance and oddly we actually saw his lack of balance at the combine today, that's the only reason I wouldn't pencil him in as our full time OLB

I think the balance thing is overblown. He seems to lose balance at random times moving laterally, not when he is bending the edge. I don't know what you mean by a hybrid guy, but his primary position would be OLB. He might play some 3T in sub-packages but I see him primarily as an edge rusher. 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, gabefergy said:

I think the balance thing is overblown. He seems to lose balance at random times moving laterally, not when he is bending the edge. I don't know what you mean by a hybrid guy, but his primary position would be OLB. He might play some 3T in sub-packages but I see him primarily as an edge rusher. 

Hybrid as in splitting snaps between de DT and OLB 

[Italian Raven]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

Wrong and WRONG!! I was not referring to you. I was referring to scouts who just assume somebody can not do something just because he or she rarely does so!! It is one of biggest mistakes by scouts!! I watched a quarter of of an OSU game and realized Bosa is flexible and very sudden, he just likes to use his hands.like I posted this morning. Sure enough in his interview he said he likes to use his hands. It is not that he can't bend, he just prefers to win with his hands. Bosa is flexible enough to bend and flatten he just prefers a different style. It is more habit than flaw. When a muscular dude is not using heavy big weights at the it is not that he can not lift'em he just prefers lighter weights more controlled. Bradys armstrength was questioned because the offense did not ask for hard throws. Lucks armstrength was said to not be elite. He gets the NFL and can sling it 70 yards. Many receivers were labeled not get behind the dbacks threat but we're long ball threats in the NFL. it just was not their style in college. And some receivers were said to not be good in traffic, catching the ball high, and or no good after the catch yet showed it once in the NFL.

Ok, sorry then, I got it wrong.

However I still don't get why you talk about 'scouts'.. it's only us here, I don't recall to have quoted any oponion but mine.. that's why it sounded personal.

I understand when you say that you can't judge a player on something he wasn't asked to do (C.Coleman with blocking for example).

Brady provides us a small sample size of long passes and his offense is known for playing a ton of rub routes with slants crosses and posts.. is it because of him prefering the quick game or because he has a limitation? I'd say more the second.. he displays one of the worst long passes completion % in the NFL which is quite a proof of it.

In Bosa case, I don't remember him beating anyone on the outside, using speed and bending around the corner..  is it because he preferes pure power and to use his hands or because he simply doesn't possess those skills? Again, I'd say the second.. he leans, loses his balance if asked to consistently do that. it's not like he's unproven.. he did have those assignments, but he didn't bode too well.

[Winchester]

26 minutes ago, Italian Raven said:

Ok, sorry then, I got it wrong.

However I still don't get why you talk about 'scouts'.. it's only us here, I don't recall to have quoted any oponion but mine.. that's why it sounded personal.

I understand when you say that you can't judge a player on something he wasn't asked to do (C.Coleman with blocking for example).

Brady provides us a small sample size of long passes and his offense is known for playing a ton of rub routes with slants crosses and posts.. is it because of him prefering the quick game or because he has a limitation? I'd say more the second.. he displays one of the worst long passes completion % in the NFL which is quite a proof of it.

In Bosa case, I don't remember him beating anyone on the outside, using speed and bending around the corner..  is it because he preferes pure power and to use his hands or because he simply doesn't possess those skills? Again, I'd say the second.. he leans, loses his balance if asked to consistently do that. it's not like he's unproven.. he did have those assignments, but he didn't bode too well.

Brady has never thrown to a deep receiver outside of Moss. So can not judge him on that. And I don't know what more you want to see to realize Brady has a rifle!!  The Superbowl throw covered over 70 yards in the air. There were several plays Bosa bends and flattens. However anything you do not do often is not going to be perfected. Even smaller pure speed rushers takes a couple yrs to get that bend dip and flatten running on all cylinders. There are many plays where smaller speed rushers that count primarily on bending the edge lean and do not maintain balance. Bosa has plenty of athleticism to do it. He just needs to do it more often. Like I said a player can not torque ball carriers to the ground with such explosion and power while in an awkward position without top notch flexibility and agility regardless of how strong the player is. Go on college wrestling boards where flexibility is discussed and shown examples. The way Bosa can torque a ball carrier to the  ground like a rag doll with suddenness from awkward positions could not be performed unless he has top shelf agility. Watch how Buckner has to dip his knees or readjust his position  to perform the same tackles. It is called in wrestling terms reaching for your power. Because of his  agility Bosa's power is on tap without reaching, bending is knees or adjusting his body position to use his power. Watt makes similar tackles as does Mack and Jamie Collins. Not saying he could bend quite like von Miller but he for his size he is very agile. And by playoff time next year Bosa will be a 285 LB edge rusher that can bend and flatten. Because that is what coaches in the NFL will have him using more often as soon as he gets to camp. Bosa can add 20lbs to his frame with no loss in speed.

[Edgar]

To me, Bosa is tailor made to play left DE in a 4-3. Exactly where he played in college. I don't see him being as effective as a 3-4 OLB.

I like him a lot against the run. I do not like him as an edge rusher. 

 

 

[trevorsteadman]

4 hours ago, Edgar said:

To me, Bosa is tailor made to play left DE in a 4-3. Exactly where he played in college. I don't see him being as effective as a 3-4 OLB.

I like him a lot against the run. I do not like him as an edge rusher. 

 

 

Wasn't Suggs part of a 4-3 at Arizona State in his time there? I could be wrong it very well could've been a 3-4... But Suggs changed from Defensive End. I think Bosa has the talent to line up in multiple spots than many give him credit for. My top 5 for this draft is as follows: 1. Tunsil 2. Ramsey 3. Jack 4. Buckner 5. Bosa. As long as a QB is picked before us we get one of those very talented guys. If it so happens if the only person left on the list is Bosa I would still pick him in a heartbeat. And maybe with aging Dumervil, Suggs, and Smith and the young defensive line of Davis, Jernigan, Williams, Urban, and Buckner/Bosa we may change to a 4-3. Maybe we have been going at this all wrong thinking we need to draft a pass rusher because one is out the door. Maybe we play to our team's strength which in a year or two will be the defensive line with how many draft picks we have invested there. But I still see Bosa competing at the next level and I would be happy if he fell to us.

[gabefergy]

5 hours ago, Edgar said:

To me, Bosa is tailor made to play left DE in a 4-3. Exactly where he played in college. I don't see him being as effective as a 3-4 OLB.

I like him a lot against the run. I do not like him as an edge rusher. 

 

 

What's the difference as a 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB? They both rush the passer no?

[gabefergy]

14 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Hybrid as in splitting snaps between de DT and OLB 

Gotcha, I think that kind of versatility is a bonus for a team like the Ravens that uses multiple fronts.