The difference a scout makes

[GrimCoconut]

10 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

And for what it's worth, I think Upshaw got a lot more disruptive as the season wore on. Whether that's due to him playing with less pressure or (what I think) Pees loosening the reigns and allowing guys to just play, he got a lot better.

Sure, he wasn't posting anything ridiculous, but two sacks, one being a strip sack, and a host of pressures is a lot more than he's given in the past. He was more disruptive from the interior of the defense and forced quarterbacks outside for Doom or Smith to clean up.

That doesn't excuse his overall body as a pass rusher, which is well below average, and I'm wary of saying he could truly develop, but at least he showed a little bit of life.

You raise some fairly interesting arguments but here's what I think: the Ravens drafted him to immediately replace and eventually upgrade on losing JJ #95. He's never done that and I'm sure if we had a do-over Upshaw wouldn't be picked over Wagner, Jeffrey, or even Harrison Smith in the trade back. Also, I'm sure we hoped he'd eventually develop into more of a pass rusher.

I quoted this post of all your posts because of your comment about Upshaw coming along at the end of the year. You said that he played with less pressure and that's possibly why he did better--I disagree. I think Upshaw's success is related to him losing weight, which was always a problem for him to stay in shape during the offseason. He seems to always get better as the year wears on, and weight loss would help explain that. 

[GrimCoconut]

@Clmraven

You stole my idea, homie! Lol. I had this same idea. I wanted to do it when I had more time. I really wonder if scouting plays a role in this problem. I'll probably now have to look into this more. You've motivated me.

[ellicottraven]

Just playing the Devil's advocate here. Has Harbaugh's insistence on picking players who have special teams passion over pure positional talent contributed somewhat to the talent deficit? I'm not sure, but that's something to think about. If Scouts are asked to rank players not just on their positional talent but also their ability to contribute to ST and then grade and rank them, it may explain something. I'm unsure if that is the case, but I read somewhere that it may indeed be the case.

Second, is it possible that in recent years, the scouting throughout the league has improved substantially given the immediate dissemination of information (social media, etc.)? Is it even possible to focus quietly on a player that we covet without other scouts, teams finding out? I'm not sure there are many hidden gems any more to find because it is hard to be talented and stay hidden anymore.

Lastly, I do believe there has been some talent drain in our scouting department of late. Maybe that has something to do with our drafting success lately.

BTW, these are all pure speculative thoughts on my part and may have nothing to do with why we are not being very successful lately.

[GrimCoconut]

@ellicottraven I think it's a stretch to question whether Harbaugh has influenced our draft in a negative way in terms of special teams. We've always looked for ST contributions from late round prospects and that has never changed. Our late round drafting is as good as it's ever been but our early drafting is where we're hurting. Early round picks aren't selected based on whether they play teams. Perriman, Jimmy, Upshaw, Elam, Arthur Brown, Jernigan, Mosley, Cody, Kindle, and many others weren't taken because they played ST. So no, this argument is rather unfounded. 

If anything it's just bad luck, bad scouting, unmotivated players, or (more likely) a combination of the three. If Kindle didn't fall down stairs and became the player we expected, we maybe never took Upshaw, which means we may have selected Harrison Smith, eliminating the need for Elam, etc. 

[Clmraven]

5 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Just playing the Devil's advocate here. Has Harbaugh's insistence on picking players who have special teams passion over pure positional talent contributed somewhat to the talent deficit? I'm not sure, but that's something to think about. If Scouts are asked to rank players not just on their positional talent but also their ability to contribute to ST and then grade and rank them, it may explain something. I'm unsure if that is the case, but I read somewhere that it may indeed be the case.

I think this could be possible, more so with later round guy I'd think. Chykie Brown and Asa Jackson come to mind but it's hard to say if we see guys like them as potential starters or just potential ST guys.

[ellicottraven]

23 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

@ellicottraven I think it's a stretch to question whether Harbaugh has influenced our draft in a negative way in terms of special teams. We've always looked for ST contributions from late round prospects and that has never changed. Our late round drafting is as good as it's ever been but our early drafting is where we're hurting. Early round picks aren't selected based on whether they play teams. Perriman, Jimmy, Upshaw, Elam, Arthur Brown, Jernigan, Mosley, Cody, Kindle, and many others weren't taken because they played ST. So no, this argument is rather unfounded. 

If anything it's just bad luck, bad scouting, unmotivated players, or (more likely) a combination of the three. If Kindle didn't fall down stairs and became the player we expected, we maybe never took Upshaw, which means we may have selected Harrison Smith, eliminating the need for Elam, etc. 

@GrimCoconut, I heard Phil Savage talk about this on 105.7. Now, he's been a very successful scout for a time and has inside information that you and I can only dream of. So, in a way I trust his information somewhat. Just to make it easy, go to the 8 minute mark and listen on. You'll understand why I made the comment about Harbaugh. This argument isn't so unfounded that you can summarily dismiss it as such. Here is the link to a discussion regarding this very topic. The whole interview can be rather enlightening to all the folks here I think. Take what you want out of it, but I think we need to have an open mind to why we aren't doing great like before. Here is the link:

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/phil-savage-on-ravens-front-office-changes-through-the-years/

Edited February 22, 2016 by ellicottraven

[Clmraven]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

@Clmraven

You stole my idea, homie! Lol. I had this same idea. I wanted to do it when I had more time. I really wonder if scouting plays a role in this problem. I'll probably now have to look into this more. You've motivated me.

I just looked more into on our scouting and found some interesting info, there's 2 big scouting (BLESTO and The National) organizations that give initial scouting reports to teams that are subscribed, and I found it interesting that we are one of only 5 teams In the league that don't subscribe to either of these, we do all the initial scouting ourselves, which could lead to us having very different views and rankings of prospects than most other teams.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Clmraven

[GrimCoconut]

23 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

@GrimCoconut, I heard Phil Savage talk about this on 105.7. Now, he's been a very successful scout for a time and has inside information that you and I can only dream of. So, in a way I trust his information somewhat. Just to make it easy, go to the 8 minute mark and listen on. You'll understand why I made the comment about Harbaugh. This argument isn't so unfounded that you can summarily dismiss it as such. Here is the link to a discussion regarding this very topic. The whole interview can be rather enlightening to all the folks here I think. Take what you want out of it, but I think we need to have an open mind to why we aren't doing great like before. Here is the link:

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/phil-savage-on-ravens-front-office-changes-through-the-years/

I'll take a listen. Not being a jerk but you should've provided that link with your initial post rather than make it seem like it was your idea. I agree that Savage knows more than either of us for sure, and while I'll listen, I still think it's a stretch to say Harbaugh has influenced our picks to get players who can contribute on ST. I think I made a pretty solid argument why that makes no sense because the guys we picked recently early haven't been relied on to contribute on ST. 

Now if you're arguing that Harbaugh's penchant for "choir boys" may have led to us not having any dogs with attitude, that's something you'll find me agreeing. I just don't agree with that ST notion.

[GrimCoconut]

14 minutes ago, Clmraven said:

I just looked more into on our scouting and found some interesting info, there's 2 big scouting (BLESTO and The National) organizations that give initial scouting reports to teams that are subscribed, and I found it interesting that we are one of only 5 teams In the league that don't subscribe to either of these, we do all the initial scouting ourselves, which could lead to us having very different views and rankings of prospects than most other teams.

We probably should subscribe so we at least have an idea how other teams view these prospects. I don't want it to be an early assessment though because it may influence our opinions. 

[ellicottraven]

3 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I'll take a listen. Not being a jerk but you should've provided that link with your initial post rather than make it seem like it was your idea. I agree that Savage knows more than either of us for sure, and while I'll listen, I still think it's a stretch to say Harbaugh has influenced our picks to get players who can contribute on ST. I think I made a pretty solid argument why that makes no sense because the guys we picked recently early haven't been relied on to contribute on ST. 

Now if you're arguing that Harbaugh's penchant for "choir boys" may have led to us not having any dogs with attitude, that's something you'll find me agreeing. I just don't agree with that ST notion.

I had actually read about it in russellstreet.com forums I believe. Went back and saw the reference to Phil Savage and then got the link. Indicating that I had read about it somewhere clearly illustrates it wasn't my epiphany or idea. Take a listen and we can discuss later.

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I had actually read about it in russellstreet.com forums I believe. Went back and saw the reference to Phil Savage and then got the link. Indicating that I had read about it somewhere clearly illustrates it wasn't my epiphany or idea. Take a listen and we can discuss later.

I'm confused. It really doesn't matter though I guess. I'm not here to call you out or make anyone look bad. I'm just not understanding. I know now it's not your idea but I don't feel your initial post presented it like that. Whatever, though. 

I'll listen and get back with you

[ellicottraven]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

I'm confused. It really doesn't matter though I guess. I'm not here to call you out or make anyone look bad. I'm just not understanding. I know now it's not your idea but I don't feel your initial post presented it like that. Whatever, though. 

I'll listen and get back with you

You got it. It doesn't really matter. BTW I'm totally comfortable being called out if there is reasoning behind it. I am also too old for an ego. I lost it with my hair.

[edthehead]

6 hours ago, Clmraven said:

I just looked more into on our scouting and found some interesting info, there's 2 big scouting (BLESTO and The National) organizations that give initial scouting reports to teams that are subscribed, and I found it interesting that we are one of only 5 teams In the league that don't subscribe to either of these, we do all the initial scouting ourselves, which could lead to us having very different views and rankings of prospects than most other teams.

who are the other teams , I like to know and see how they draft

[Willbacker]

The best to my knowledge about scouting is that they are normally divided by regions. It wouldn't surprize me at all if our scouts are not poached by other teams via promotions or raises in general. Teams look for certain specifics and qualities which I think the main problem is Pees runs a different style of D than his former predeccessors and Ozzie is possibly not quite in tune to the type of players he needs but I do believe theres been progress. Also been a lot of bad luck with picks like Kindle,Cody,Elam and A Brown which to me has a lot to do with scouting but also where we've drafted has also been a contribution. Who knows how many voices are in Ozzie's ear during draft day and who has more pull. That's hush hush secret secret.

Basically imo an NFL team should be run like a baseball team where fundamentals and system should run completely thru the whole organization and the base of it is actually the scouts.

[RavensFanMania]

7 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

If anything it's just bad luck, bad scouting, unmotivated players, or (more likely) a combination of the three. If Kindle didn't fall down stairs and became the player we expected, we maybe never took Upshaw, which means we may have selected Harrison Smith, eliminating the need for Elam, etc. 

These what if's are very depressing. 

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, RavensFanMania said:

These what if's are very depressing. 

Yeah. It's like a bunch of dominos falling down stairs. Wait a minute...

[Clmraven]

3 hours ago, edthehead said:

who are the other teams , I like to know and see how they draft

The 4 others are the Colts, the Pats, the Raiders and the Skins

[edthehead]

On 2/22/2016 at 11:03 AM, ellicottraven said:

@GrimCoconut, I heard Phil Savage talk about this on 105.7. Now, he's been a very successful scout for a time and has inside information that you and I can only dream of. So, in a way I trust his information somewhat. Just to make it easy, go to the 8 minute mark and listen on. You'll understand why I made the comment about Harbaugh. This argument isn't so unfounded that you can summarily dismiss it as such. Here is the link to a discussion regarding this very topic. The whole interview can be rather enlightening to all the folks here I think. Take what you want out of it, but I think we need to have an open mind to why we aren't doing great like before. Here is the link:

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/phil-savage-on-ravens-front-office-changes-through-the-years/

wow, that was very insightful,

the main thing is ST,I have always seen certain players on ST

ie; jimmy smith, CJ Mosley , to name a few

I have played on a college level, so I know people do play ST, but certain people DO NOT,

again not making this a bash HARB post, but maybe it is a reason our ST is so good(plus he is a ST coach)

he did say Harb was involved and wanting to know who can play ST,

 Me personally give me some angry dogs,  

[Winchester]

Always has to be taken into account who is listening to who and who values who's opinions. Many of the best scouts that know how to evaluate a players athletic skills and prowess literally from ankle and calf to wrist and firearm flexibility and snap to upper back chest and shoulders snap to determine who has more raw moldable skills potential, get held back and their evaluations stolen by the political directors and their favorite pets!! And thatbis just smudging the surface of traits to be evaluated. By the time info gets to oz Harbs Decosta and Biscotti nobody knows how or why their stupid scouting directors like the players. The best trait a GM,assistant GM, scouting director can have by leaps and bounds is TO KNOW WHO TO LISTEN TO ABOUT A PLAYERS SKILLS AND WHEN. 

[ravensnick]

I honestly think Upshaw would benefit from being in a 4-3. He could throw around his weight more.

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, ravensnick said:

I honestly think Upshaw would benefit from being in a 4-3. He could throw around his weight more.

ChubShaw could benefit being in sumo wrestling to throw is slug weight around. Bird22 is correct he was never an edge rusher but oz and his crew thought he would become a good edge rusher. Even said it when We bumped into the crew from the fan in Canton just after he was drafted  and the guys cocked a major attitude when I said he wouldn't see 5 sacks in a season.

[ravensdan]

I will have to give the savage interview a listen. Daniel Jeremiah does A podcast and he's give an inside look at our proccess on several episodes. Pertinent to this topic there's the area scout but it's never just one guy there's cross checks. So it's certainly not a matter of just one person being a downfall. It's an interesting topic. I'd love to dive in to it more hopefully it doesn't devolve into some of the preconceived stuff floating around. 

[ravensdan]

This was a good interview with DJ and Ross Tucker. He touches a little on this topic of how the coaches are involved in the process also discusses Noah spence and some comps...

 

http://www.podcastone.com/Ross-Tucker-Football-Podcast