Possibility of Deforest Buckner & Noah Spence???

[GrimCoconut]

4 hours ago, gabefergy said:

I don't think there were anything outside of substance abuse issues for Spence, but I also don't think you can just lump together "character concerns" like they are all created equal. Honestly, the public is only privy to a small fraction of the info teams uncover on these prospects so drawing comparisons of one player to another doesn't work for me. Each one is a unique case. Of course it's possible the Ravens will draft Spence, but they have never drafted a player with his kind of indiscretions and associated ramifications previously. I guess there is a first time for everything. The point I made before I believe still rings true. There are a lot of players the Ravens will be considering throughout the draft process, and I would imagine there will be a number of players they will consider as viable targets at #6. Is it really worth taking a risk on a player with Spence's baggage? To be honest, we don't even know if they like him as a top 10 player regardless of the concerns.

Jimmy Smith is sorta similar but on a much smaller scale since he wasn't kicked out of his conference due to his I think one or two positive marijuana tests. I think getting kicked out of the conference hurt Spence most, but I'm not sure how much that influences teams' decisions. He's got the talent for sure. 

[numerounopapi]

There's no way we end up with both Buckner and Spence... If you had to choose who would you pick? 

[GrimCoconut]

7 hours ago, numerounopapi said:

There's no way we end up with both Buckner and Spence... If you had to choose who would you pick? 

I'd personally go Spence but that's a tough choice. It's possible we could get both, although seemingly unlikely at this time. It's happened before. 

[Mt. Crushmore]

7 hours ago, numerounopapi said:

There's no way we end up with both Buckner and Spence... If you had to choose who would you pick? 

Spence. Biggest need and better talent imo.

[RaineV1]

8 hours ago, numerounopapi said:

There's no way we end up with both Buckner and Spence... If you had to choose who would you pick? 

Buckner. He's a better player and could be one of the best in the league at his position.

[gabefergy]

13 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

Jimmy Smith is sorta similar but on a much smaller scale since he wasn't kicked out of his conference due to his I think one or two positive marijuana tests. I think getting kicked out of the conference hurt Spence most, but I'm not sure how much that influences teams' decisions. He's got the talent for sure. 

Yeah they aren't close.

[JoeyFlex5]

16 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

Yeah they aren't close.

3 positive drug tests and an aggravated assault charge, right, Spence and his 2 failed drug tests are so much worse because the conference overreacted.

[January J]

This is tough to decide between the two. But the closer we get to the draft the more convinced I am that one of the two will be our pick. Spence's stock has been steadily increasing and I think he's no longer really considered a reach at 6, even with the off the feild concerns. Buckner or spence Will most likely be our pick at 6, and either of them will probably be the BPA anyway.

[Ravenskid52752]

Buckner has grown on me a lot but interior pass rush is just as important as outside pass rush.

[RaineV1]

55 minutes ago, Ravenskid52752 said:

Buckner has grown on me a lot but interior pass rush is just as important as outside pass rush.

I disagree. I think it's harder for QBs to deal with interior passrush as it is for them to deal with pressure from the sides. It's definitely harder to avoid someone coming through the middle of the pocket straight at you than someone coming off the edge. Not to mention that interior passrushers have the chance to tip the ball which causes turnovers.

Edited February 17, 2016 by RaineV1

[Sizzlebshu]

Seriously? How does this thread have 3 pages? 

[gabefergy]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

3 positive drug tests and an aggravated assault charge, right, Spence and his 2 failed drug tests are so much worse because the conference overreacted.

 

2 drug tests that we know of. He was suspended for 3 games for his first failure, or maybe he had priors that haven't come to light as well. With complete knowledge that another failed test likely results in a min year long suspension and likely being kicked out of the program, he still continued to abuse substances. Maybe he has been reformed in the past year, but who knows? You can't deny it would be unprecedented to draft a player with his history.

We are looking at these two players in different lenses as well. One with everything that comes out through the draft process and the other where the interviews haven't happened yet. 

 

[allblackraven]

14 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

 

2 drug tests that we know of. He was suspended for 3 games for his first failure, or maybe he had priors that haven't come to light as well. With complete knowledge that another failed test likely results in a min year long suspension and likely being kicked out of the program, he still continued to abuse substances. Maybe he has been reformed in the past year, but who knows? You can't deny it would be unprecedented to draft a player with his history.

We are looking at these two players in different lenses as well. One with everything that comes out through the draft process and the other where the interviews haven't happened yet. 

 

He didn't have more than two positive tests. What Ohio State and Big 10 took exception to was the fact that he lied to everybody, including his father, even after he's been caught by saying someone spiked his drink, then got caught again. I see those incidents as a typical dumb adolescent behavior. He cleaned up his act, stayed clean since and played very good football. Nobody should be held hostage for their teenage years mistakes if they did not hurt anybody else but themselves, realized thier mistakes and turned the page.

[Davesta]

If we were able to draft Buckner and spence, I will build a shrine of the Oz and bow to it every morning. 

[gabefergy]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

He didn't have more than two positive tests. What Ohio State and Big 10 took exception to was the fact that he lied to everybody, including his father, even after he's been caught by saying someone spiked his drink, then got caught again. I see those incidents as a typical dumb adolescent behavior. He cleaned up his act, stayed clean since and played very good football. Nobody should be held hostage for their teenage years mistakes if they did not hurt anybody else but themselves, realized thier mistakes and turned the page.

The Big 10 is odd because they consider ecstasy a performance enhancer for some reason, and under their rules two positive performance enhancer tests = disqualification from the conference, so it's not because he lied about it, it's because of the choice in drug he chose to abuse. 

That's fine for you to think like that, but NFL teams do a lot more investigation and they have a lot more on the line than we do. If he comes out clean and reformed and has no signs of future drug use, that's great. Maybe the Ravens will draft him, it just doesn't seem likely given everything we know about him. It's not like this happened years ago either, his second negative test, was in 2014. He knew testing positive for ecstasy would result in a dismissal yet he still did it just months after his first suspension. Maybe getting kicked out of the conference was a wake up call, and maybe in the past 18 months he has grown up. It's just very risky to use a first round pick on a player with his history.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, gabefergy said:

 

2 drug tests that we know of. He was suspended for 3 games for his first failure, or maybe he had priors that haven't come to light as well. With complete knowledge that another failed test likely results in a min year long suspension and likely being kicked out of the program, he still continued to abuse substances. Maybe he has been reformed in the past year, but who knows? You can't deny it would be unprecedented to draft a player with his history.

We are looking at these two players in different lenses as well. One with everything that comes out through the draft process and the other where the interviews haven't happened yet. 

 

Until proven otherwise it appears that the difference between Spence and Jimmy is the choice of drug and the discipline. With jimmy having more offenses that we know of. I don't think it's fair to assume more guilt on one party With absolutely no evidence.

[allblackraven]

23 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

The Big 10 is odd because they consider ecstasy a performance enhancer for some reason, and under their rules two positive performance enhancer tests = disqualification from the conference, so it's not because he lied about it, it's because of the choice in drug he chose to abuse. 

That's fine for you to think like that, but NFL teams do a lot more investigation and they have a lot more on the line than we do. If he comes out clean and reformed and has no signs of future drug use, that's great. Maybe the Ravens will draft him, it just doesn't seem likely given everything we know about him. It's not like this happened years ago either, his second negative test, was in 2014. He knew testing positive for ecstasy would result in a dismissal yet he still did it just months after his first suspension. Maybe getting kicked out of the conference was a wake up call, and maybe in the past 18 months he has grown up. It's just very risky to use a first round pick on a player with his history.

 

11 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Until proven otherwise it appears that the difference between Spence and Jimmy is the choice of drug and the discipline. With jimmy having more offenses that we know of. I don't think it's fair to assume more guilt on one party With absolutely no evidence.

I kind of agree with both of you on this - Jimmy Smith's indiscretions were probably slightly worse but there is lot more money involved with #6 than #27

Couple more months left to find out but I still want Spence with our 1st.

[GrimCoconut]

IIRC, Jimmy Smith's incidents were further in the past and involved what's considered a more socially accepted illegal substance, if there's such a thing, which is now legal. Jimmy also had issues with getting girls pregnant in college with subsequent abortions, so his concerns weren't strictly related to marijuana abuse. 

Still, I think there are similarities and differences but I think what must not go unnoticed is we do give chances if we feel the prospect has reformed or if they can avoid those issues. The pick investment is less, but this isn't the 2011 or 2014 drafts here. It's not like there's a bevy of extremely talented prospects at the top of the class..

[ngatainmyhouse]

3 hours ago, gabefergy said:

The Big 10 is odd because they consider ecstasy a performance enhancer for some reason, and under their rules two positive performance enhancer tests = disqualification from the conference, so it's not because he lied about it, it's because of the choice in drug he chose to abuse. 

That's fine for you to think like that, but NFL teams do a lot more investigation and they have a lot more on the line than we do. If he comes out clean and reformed and has no signs of future drug use, that's great. Maybe the Ravens will draft him, it just doesn't seem likely given everything we know about him. It's not like this happened years ago either, his second negative test, was in 2014. He knew testing positive for ecstasy would result in a dismissal yet he still did it just months after his first suspension. Maybe getting kicked out of the conference was a wake up call, and maybe in the past 18 months he has grown up. It's just very risky to use a first round pick on a player with his history.

There also is the big difference in the Ravens take Jimmy with the 27th pick opposed to the taking Spence with the 6th pick. Regardless of how long ago it was, it's scary to take a guy that high with the extra baggage he's bringing along. Just to clarify I like Spence but not at 6

[GrimCoconut]

11 hours ago, ngatainmyhouse said:

There also is the big difference in the Ravens take Jimmy with the 27th pick opposed to the taking Spence with the 6th pick. Regardless of how long ago it was, it's scary to take a guy that high with the extra baggage he's bringing along. Just to clarify I like Spence but not at 6

That's true but let's look at it like this: while it's the 6 overall, the draft class is weaker than the 2011 draft class. Jimmy probably goes top 10 in this class. This isn't a strong class, but it's not bad. I think it's strikingly similar to 2012. 

[ngatainmyhouse]

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

That's true but let's look at it like this: while it's the 6 overall, the draft class is weaker than the 2011 draft class. Jimmy probably goes top 10 in this class. This isn't a strong class, but it's not bad. I think it's strikingly similar to 2012. 

If you're basing it on that though, then what justifies the Ravens passing on Randy Gregory in the 2nd. Off the field aside Gregory was the #1 OLB yet there were 5 taken before him

[allblackraven]

7 minutes ago, ngatainmyhouse said:

If you're basing it on that though, then what justifies the Ravens passing on Randy Gregory in the 2nd. Off the field aside Gregory was the #1 OLB yet there were 5 taken before him

Maybe his statement 2 days before draft that he can't function without marijuana or the fact that he isn't good fit in Ravens defense? He is not linebacker.

Edited February 18, 2016 by allblackraven

[ngatainmyhouse]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

Maybe his statement 2 days before draft that he can't function without marijuana or the fact that he isn't good fit in Ravens defense? He is not linebacker.

Everything I came across was about him accepting the fact that he messed up claiming to have his eye on his dream now etc... Taking jimmy smith at 27 is far from equal to Spence at 6. Marijuana is something that multiple guys in the NFL have gotten caught up in. Gregory, Le'Veon Bell, Honey Badger and many others. I think Ecstasy is far more severe than marijuana.

 

Also if he's a DE, many of us would love to take Buckner so I'm not certain as to why it was wouldn't be a need at all last year but now is a position analyst believe they'll address if Buckner is there

Edited February 18, 2016 by ngatainmyhouse

[allblackraven]

15 minutes ago, ngatainmyhouse said:

Also if he's a DE, many of us would love to take Buckner so I'm not certain as to why it was wouldn't be a need at all last year but now is a position analyst believe they'll address if Buckner is there

That's because Buckner is a prototype 34 DE. At combine, Gregory measured at 235-240 lbs.

[usmccharles]

I mentioned it somewhere else but I thought I'd mention it here as well,  Spence has stated he already spoke with us.   The more I read about him the more I like him.  There's a good article on bleacher report about him.   Next to myles jack I have Spence 2nd now 

[ngatainmyhouse]

26 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

That's because Buckner is a prototype 34 DE. At combine, Gregory measured at 235-240 lbs.

Agreed, Buckner is a stud and I'd love for him to end up with the Ravens. I cannot wait to see the numbers he puts up at the combine

[52520Andrew]

I'd pick Spence over Buckner but it is close

[gabefergy]

23 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

IIRC, Jimmy Smith's incidents were further in the past and involved what's considered a more socially accepted illegal substance, if there's such a thing, which is now legal. Jimmy also had issues with getting girls pregnant in college with subsequent abortions, so his concerns weren't strictly related to marijuana abuse. 

Still, I think there are similarities and differences but I think what must not go unnoticed is we do give chances if we feel the prospect has reformed or if they can avoid those issues. The pick investment is less, but this isn't the 2011 or 2014 drafts here. It's not like there's a bevy of extremely talented prospects at the top of the class..

This is a debate that none of us will really know the details of unless Spence is drafted or media can uncover specifics of what is said in interviews. If we are talking about the #6 pick and not a trade back situation , I can think of a number of players that will be available that have similar talent level to Spence.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

Noah Spence looks like he could be awesome if he's truly clean. I still think about the fact that we could of had Justin Houston he fell due to drug issues and I believe we passed on him twice when he came out. Let's hope we do our research and not make that mistake again. lol 

[RaineV1]

Right now, I'd put Spence as the 4th best option for our pick. Buckner and Bosa are 1A and 1B (it's hard to chose a true top guy between those two), with Myles Jack as the next best pick after them.

Edited February 19, 2016 by RaineV1