Mackensie Alexander v. VH3

[RavensDieHard21]

I know that there is already a DB thread that has 26 pages full of posts, but there is one looming question that I want to ask the Raven community and see if there is any developing consensus on who most think is better between the two corners. Being at #6 is interesting because we might luckily have one of the elite four fall to us--Tunsil, Bosa, Ramsey, or Buckner--but there is a chance that they don't and we may or may not trade back. Hypothetically speaking, if we were going to take a top corner outside of Ramsey, who would you pick between Alexander and VH3?

I have watched a lot of tape on both, read evaluations, and have looked up statistics on them as well, in addition to having watched quite a few games of both players. With that being said, I am undeniably on team Alexander. VH3 certainly practices a great deal on his technique and it does show Throughout a majority of his games, plus his ball skills are on a very high level, but there are a few red flags that I have, which some might be solved at the combine. Some pages declare he is 5'10-5'11, but standing next to WRs listed as 6'0, he looks as if he was at best 5'9. This scares me versus large receivers and in many games I've seen double moves and large receivers get the best of him. Nonetheless, he will most likely be a talented corner, but I don't think he will become an outside type of guy. 

Alexander to me is just too valuable of a talent to pass up, especially when we are desperate to find a top notch cover corner next to #22. I watched a lot of Clemson this year and Alexander showed an immense amount of talent and here are the benefits I see him providing for our team. 1.) he plays with that for lack of a better word, Raven Swagger, which can be described as being physical and possessing a strong personality that shines on defense. 2.) By far the best cover skills in the draft, he literally never gets beat or is out of position when the ball is in the air. 3.) he follows top team's #1 receiver around the field and never shies away from top notch competition. 4.) his speed I think is underrated and I wouldn't be surprised if he ran in the 4.3 range. 5.) he is more likely to play outside than HG3 right away. 6.) many scouts and analysts have said it, "he is just scratching the surface of his talent." Below are some articles that show how well Alexander has lived up to being a lock down corner, pre 2015 season and after.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150708/PC0312/150709486/1479/mackensie-alexander-shutdown-corner-with-the-lack-of-stats-to-back-it-up

http://nflmocks.com/2015/12/03/clemson-cb-mackensie-alexander-2016-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

http://www.ganggreennation.com/2016/1/10/10722780/mackensie-alexander-scouting-report-cb-clemson-2016-nfl-draft

Edited February 18, 2016 by RavensDieHard21

[thieverycorporation]

I'll take Hargreaves as he has actually shown his prowess and it translates well in a suitable scheme and with proper coaching and technique should be able to add us in turn overs. 

[RavensDieHard21]

1 minute ago, thieverycorporation said:

I'll take Hargreaves as he has actually shown his prowess and it translates well in a suitable scheme and with proper coaching and technique should be able to add us in turn overs. 

I love the upside of Hargreaves generating turnovers because 6 interceptions this year was ugly. But what you said about being in a suitable scheme is where I think Alexander gets the edge because he doesn't need over complicated schemes to operate. He is a pure me vs your top receiver kind of corner, plus Clemson coaches and players say he is an absolute film room junkie who studies just as much as he practices on the field.

[JoeyFlex5]

I still gotta go with vh3(btw, you are the only person who consistently gets his acronym wrong lol) 

 

Alexander has the same issues, except he may be an inch taller and finish maybe .03 seconds faster on the 40. However, I think vh3 Will have a better vertical and shuttle time. Also vh3 is far more proven against much better competition, he has great ankles and is able to break on a play in ways that would leave many corners stumbling, he keeps his eyes on the ball better than any corner I have ever seen in college, he is the rare off-man corner, it is hard to find a guy who really nails the concept of off coverage as well as he does. 

 

Alexander is a very similar corner only farrrrrrr less proven and visibly quite raw.

[thieverycorporation]

 

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I still gotta go with vh3(btw, you are the only person who consistently gets his acronym wrong lol) 

 

Alexander has the same issues, except he may be an inch taller and finish maybe .03 seconds faster on the 40. However, I think vh3 Will have a better vertical and shuttle time. Also vh3 is far more proven against much better competition, he has great ankles and is able to break on a play in ways that would leave many corners stumbling, he keeps his eyes on the ball better than any corner I have ever seen in college, he is the rare off-man corner, it is hard to find a guy who really nails the concept of off coverage as well as he does. 

 

Alexander is a very similar corner only farrrrrrr less proven and visibly quite raw.

Analysis is correct. He actually could mirror the Edelmans, Antonio Brown, the like. He doesn't need tweaking at all. I would hope Pee's doesn't damage him lol. I believe his abilities could be on par with Honey Badger's. If they were smart they'd actually take a real good look before moving back. Even though I favor it I'd like to see what he'd do on this team. I'm seriously torn about (1st round only) the best route to take so I can only imagine whats swirling around at the castle lol 

[thieverycorporation]

1 hour ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

I love the upside of Hargreaves generating turnovers because 6 interceptions this year was ugly. But what you said about being in a suitable scheme is where I think Alexander gets the edge because he doesn't need over complicated schemes to operate. He is a pure me vs your top receiver kind of corner, plus Clemson coaches and players say he is an absolute film room junkie who studies just as much as he practices on the field.

I understand what your saying. He has all of the intangibles however I haven't seen enough of him in situations that out way what I've seen of Hargreaves. Simply put COLLEGE QB's may have been scared of him but everyone in the NFL will test him. We all know the learning curve can be steep and I don't know that he succeds out the gate with because he wasn't targeted that much. If he comes here I won't be dismayed but a little antsy until proven otherwise. 

[Jacquouille]

I have yet to see a completion on Alexander, so he's my guy. I think the turnover problem gets solved with a guy like Frazier who coaches agressivity above anything else.

I have concerns with VH3, like the way he got burnt in the last few games, that was really horrible and against average college competition... His size doesn't worry me, he's covered Treadwell nicely, so I think it demonstrates he can deal with his size.

There's so much to like about Alexander, his potential, his talent, but also his attitude. I remember during the Oklahoma game, he showed a Sizzle-like attitude, trash talking the opponent and motivating his teammates. Something that I've missed this year.

[JoeyFlex5]

Alexander wasn't tested in college, but on the rare occasion a qb looked his way, he has shown to not know how to get his head turned around as he face guards. Now it's a small sample size but it is something he has shown to struggle with. What happens when he is tested by NFL qbs who don't overthrow him whenever they throw his way? Cb not turning their head is a problem that tends to take years to fix, if ever.

[Edgar]

Hargreaves

[Jacquouille]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Alexander wasn't tested in college, but on the rare occasion a qb looked his way, he has shown to not know how to get his head turned around as he face guards. Now it's a small sample size but it is something he has shown to struggle with. What happens when he is tested by NFL qbs who don't overthrow him whenever they throw his way? Cb not turning their head is a problem that tends to take years to fix, if ever.

I'll have to dig on the "turning head" part, but he successfully faced Sterling Shepard and Calvin Ridley for a half. That answered the competition question for me. One could also argue that he had a dominant pass rush to help him.

[jazz1988]

Considering The Ravens hired Leslie Frazier as their defensive back coach and that Dean Pees is the defensive coordinator it would seem VH3 would probably be better fit.Alexander would probably fit but I think The Ravens need a corner that can play right away,

[RaineV1]

I prefer Alexander. He's the best pure cover corner in the draft, and I love his work ethic and his film study habits.

[January J]

I somewhat prefer Alexander but I kind of look at them as equally talented. I know they are two different players but as far as who I'd rather have its just a toss up for me

[ALI624]

2 minutes ago, January J said:

I somewhat prefer Alexander but I kind of look at them as equally talented. I know they are two different players but as far as who I'd rather have its just a toss up for me

This is where I am with these two either one can turn into a shutdown CB or be a gigantic liability.

[rmw10]

I'm still in on VH3 (HG3 makes me laugh).  I still think he's one of the most developed CBs coming out in a long time.  I'm a fan of technique over raw ability.  I do like Alexander as well, but I can't help but have more questions on him.  I do wish VH3 would stop biting on routes at times.  He does play a little overly aggressive, but he has a very strong track record outside of that last game.  I can't let one poor game overshadow everything else that he's done very well.

That point aside, I would be happy with either of them.  I'd have no complaints if one of them was wearing purple come April.

Edited February 11, 2016 by rmw10

[JoeyFlex5]

6 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I'm still in on VH3 (HG3 makes me laugh).  I still think he's one of the most developed CBs coming out in a long time.  I'm a fan of technique over raw ability.  I do like Alexander as well, but I can't help but have more questions on him.  I do wish VH3 would stop biting on routes at times.  He does play a little overly aggressive, but he has a very strong track record outside of that last game.  I can't let one poor game overshadow everything else that he's done very well.

That point aside, I would be happy with either of them.  I'd have no complaints if one of them was wearing purple come April.

This. And to the comments about Ridley, vh3 actually played very well against him in man coverage, nearly all of his big plays came against zone as a result of poor safety play, and the one touchdown he gave up in the red zone was actually a great defense by vh3 but Ridley just made an absolutely spectacular catch, can't really fault vh3 for that. 

 

His entire negative track record consists of mostly misconceptions and a few bad bites, and let's face it, every elite man corner has more than just a few bites on doubles, it's part of the learning curve and you'll never defend a pass if you never cheat up on your man.

[PurpleCity5]

I'm still on the Hargreaves bandwagon and I still view him as an option for us at 6. I still think highly of him and I really like him a lot. I think I'll go with him, I think not only is he pro-ready but the fact that he can be a great CB for years to come. He's also a great fit here IMO. 

 

FWIW, I feel like his late-struggles are really overblown. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[ALI624]

Anyone else think that VH3's struggles may help him because he has been beat and has bit on routes and gave up touchdowns that he is more battle tested than Alexander who really never had to bounce back and in the NFL your going to get beat and have to forget about it and get back in the game? 

[rmw10]

3 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I'm still on the Hargreaves bandwagon and I still view him as an option for us at 6. I still think highly of him and I really like him a lot. I think I'll go with him, I think not only is he pro-ready but the fact that he can be a great CB for years to come. He's also a great fit here IMO. 

 

FWIW, I feel like his late-struggles are really overblown. 

Seems like the last couple of games are what has determined a prospect around here lately.  VH3 had a bad game.  Not many like him that much anymore.  Treadwell had a big game and all of the sudden vaulted up.  There's too much other him out there to base it off of one good or bad game, for me at least.

[PurpleCity5]

14 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Seems like the last couple of games are what has determined a prospect around here lately.  VH3 had a bad game.  Not many like him that much anymore.  Treadwell had a big game and all of the sudden vaulted up.  There's too much other him out there to base it off of one good or bad game, for me at least.

I think his performances before those games were consistently positive. Yeah, I'll be the first to admit his last game was bad, like awful, but the Alabama game was surely overblown. Hargreaves teammates played much worse defensively and Calvin Ridley is one of the most talented receivers in CF. He's fantastic and being hailed by many as the next Amari Cooper. I won't let one game define a prospect. I really think he'll be great player in the future if he allows himself to be. I also agree with your statements, it seems like the last couple of games have really defined guys here. 

Edited February 11, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[gabefergy]

Alexander by a nose. I think he's a better cover guy, and is more versatile in his coverage with better recovery speed. Hargreaves is extremely fluid and has great hips, but I'm worried about his lack of physicality. He also gets beat deep too often.

My one concern is Alexander is he can struggle to find the ball, and has 0 INTS compared to 10 for Hargreaves. Ballskills and playmaking do matter, but I have not seen that he has brick hands either.

[ravefan52]

VH3

[RAYvenFan20]

7 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

I'll have to dig on the "turning head" part, but he successfully faced Sterling Shepard and Calvin Ridley for a half. That answered the competition question for me. One could also argue that he had a dominant pass rush to help him.

That's my problem with Alexander. Not so much a knock on him but clemsons pass rush was so dominant that the opposing qb got one read and often had to hurry his throw. 

[RavensFanMania]

Everytime I read the title of this post it frustrates me.  It's VH3.  lol

 

BTW, give me VH3 everyday of the week.

[Mt. Crushmore]

5 hours ago, rmw10 said:

I'm still in on VH3 (HG3 makes me laugh).  I still think he's one of the most developed CBs coming out in a long time.  I'm a fan of technique over raw ability.  I do like Alexander as well, but I can't help but have more questions on him.  I do wish VH3 would stop biting on routes at times.  He does play a little overly aggressive, but he has a very strong track record outside of that last game.  I can't let one poor game overshadow everything else that he's done very well.

That point aside, I would be happy with either of them.  I'd have no complaints if one of them was wearing purple come April.

Makes me think of HGH 

[Wildabeast88]

19 hours ago, thieverycorporation said:

 

Analysis is correct. He actually could mirror the Edelmans, Antonio Brown, the like. He doesn't need tweaking at all. I would hope Pee's doesn't damage him lol. I believe his abilities could be on par with Honey Badger's. If they were smart they'd actually take a real good look before moving back. Even though I favor it I'd like to see what he'd do on this team. I'm seriously torn about (1st round only) the best route to take so I can only imagine whats swirling around at the castle lol 

Pees won't damage him he will be 30 yards away from the play 

[JoeyFlex5]

9 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

Pees won't damage him he will be 30 yards away from the play 

yeah, vh3 is what pees dreams of when he draws up schemes. if pees has a say im sure hed be pounding the table for vh3, maybe even over ramsey.

[BmoreBird22]

20 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I still gotta go with vh3(btw, you are the only person who consistently gets his acronym wrong lol) 

 

Alexander has the same issues, except he may be an inch taller and finish maybe .03 seconds faster on the 40. However, I think vh3 Will have a better vertical and shuttle time. Also vh3 is far more proven against much better competition, he has great ankles and is able to break on a play in ways that would leave many corners stumbling, he keeps his eyes on the ball better than any corner I have ever seen in college, he is the rare off-man corner, it is hard to find a guy who really nails the concept of off coverage as well as he does. 

 

Alexander is a very similar corner only farrrrrrr less proven and visibly quite raw.

Alexander does this extremely well. I'm always amazed at his ability to play the ball so well because it allows him to get away with a decent amount of grabbing and hand fighting that the Ravens current corners would assuredly draw a flag on because they do not get their heads around.

[PurpleCity5]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

yeah, vh3 is what pees dreams of when he draws up schemes. if pees has a say im sure hed be pounding the table for vh3, maybe even over ramsey.

For sure, I don't know what Pees is thinking but I'm guessing him and (maybe Frazier) are big fans of Hargreaves. I agree that he might even prefer him over Ramsey, can't say for sure. 

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, PurpleCity5 said:

For sure, I don't know what Pees is thinking but I'm guessing him and (maybe Frazier) are big fans of Hargreaves. I agree that he might even prefer him over Ramsey, can't say for sure. 

Honestly, I think Fuller will be one they really want. I know people are really into VH3's ball skills, but Fuller has, I believe, eight or nine interceptions in his two healthy seasons and 34 pass deflections, which leads the ACC during that timeframe. 

Not to mention the questions about his long speed, which are legitimate, coupled with his very aggressive play style and ball skills in the short to intermediate range lend themselves to a Tampa-2, heavy zone type scheme.