Why is everyone assuming guard is NOT a need?

[PurpleCity5]

3 hours ago, Halshayeji said:

Just my humble opinion,

1- Wagner worked for one year with a lot of help from C.Gilmore standing next to him most of the time. This previous season, Wagner looked like an average RT at best.

2- Unlike you, I have a lot of confidence in Urschel and Jensen developing into NFL starters one day. But I'm also a realist and understand that day is not today. They are not going to offset the loss of KO who in my books played at a probowl level but was never voted in because its a popularity contest these days.

3- Absolutely agree. This team in general needs a few playmakers not depth.

4- I say O-Line is more pressing need because at the moment, we have 2 guaranteed starters (Zuttah, Yanda) 2 average guys that need to step up or step away. (Wagner, Monroe) and 2 good developing backups (Jensen, Urschel). notice i left Hurst out because i don't see him on this team much longer. If we bring an above average lineman then he automatically starts in this rotation.

At WR its a different scenario. SSS and K.Aiken are #1 and 2 with perriman stretching the field and a few good young guns fighing for playing time. If we bring in an above average wr then he has to earn playing time and is not even guaranteed starting minutes.

Same thing can be said about OLB. Yes we need someone to eventually carry the batton after Suggs and Doom. But if we bring in an above average OLB then he wont even get playing time behind those guys. Pass rusher is a need but not necessarily for 2016. 

CB is probably the only position that is a more urgent need than Oline because Webb has now converted to FS leaving us extremely thin at CB. If we bring in 2 above average CB's they most likely would start at #2 and nickle by the end of training camp.

I don't see how Gilmore is supposed to be responsible largely for Wagner having the year he had. PFF focus and many analytical sites had high praise for Wagner. Not only that but Gilmore wasn't even a three-down starter at the early part of the last season none-the-less even stepped on the field much. This year Gilmore was the starter, so what exactly did he do for Wagner? Wagner is working himself back from the same injury that Jimmy had, I don't think its a coincidence both are struggling and I'd really point it to the injury he suffered, he started off the season really slow but improved as it went by.

 

I also know that Urschel and Jensen may not be favorable options, but this team has other needs to fill, some bigger than OG. 

 

If you have a realistic opinion on OL, than I don't see why you wouldn't on the WRs. You got a guy who has one year left, a guy who missed a whole year who we didn't see play at all, I'll give you Aiken but after that I don't see much talent on this team at all. 

 

OLB, cannot be toyed with. If you don't have a pass rush you will lose games and that's what happened this year. Against some of the best OLs in the league we couldn't even touch QBs, that's a serious problem, it speaks largely to the lack of depth you have there. 

 

I think you're being to hard on Wagner, I think with the foot injury behind him he'll return to dominance. I think the biggest question personally is at LT, you need to find a replacement there because Eugene Monroe just hasn't proven to stay on the field. That's the only position I'll be fine with prioritizing over CB, WR and OLB. 

[Halshayeji]

Was trying to imply that Wagner benefited from Gilmore being virtually a sixth lineman his rookie year. He played a lot actually but usually just blocked. I know that's a tough injury to come back from. Thus I'm not calling him a bust but calling him average and needs to step up in his contract year.

If we draft the best OLB in this draft he probably won't start unless doom or suggs go down. If we draft the best LT in this class he starts day one as a LG or LT. What's a bigger need?

SSS and K.Aiken are both projected 1000 yard receivers and perriman is a first rounder. So if we draft WR there's a good possibility he doesn't even start till 2017.

Thats why I think CB is the most pressing need, more than WR and OLB. Oline depends on KO staying or not but that becomes a priority as well if he leaves. 

[gtalk12]

I thought O-Line was fine, we were hurt and could not run the ball well. Injuries really caught up with us on all sides of the ball. I thought that was the real issue, this new system seemed to get in the way of Justin F, we need a running back that can move the chains and help the o-line out a bit. Less stress on them from being on their heals all the time protecting Flacco. Also WR's that get open fast enough helps out as well. To me the real needs are CB and LB's then WR and RB....We need to find some play makers to help Hill out in the backfield and assist in the development of Mosley who played well considering he was also dealing with some isses. Smith and Webb need to get it together, again, injuries slowed them down as well.

[The Raven]

I'd prefer that we pick up one more interior guy via the draft, especially since I think it'll be a contract year for Jensen, but don't be surprised if we rolled with just four interior guys (and three tackles) for a total of seven. It's not uncommon to only carry seven linemen during the regular season. I prefer keeping eight or nine but...

Edited February 5, 2016 by The Raven

[rmw10]

4 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I'd prefer that we pick up one more interior guy via the draft, especially since I think it'll be a contract year for Jensen, but don't be surprised if we rolled with just four interior guys (and three tackles) for a total of seven. It's not uncommon to only carry seven linemen during the regular season. I prefer keeping eight or nine but...

Yeah we went with 7 for the later parts of the season.  We only have 7 active on gameday so it is entirely possible.  We typically go with 8 or 9, but we stacked the practice squad with OL last season while going a bit shorter than normal on the active roster.

[GrimCoconut]

9 minutes ago, The Raven said:

I'd prefer that we pick up one more interior guy via the draft, especially since I think it'll be a contract year for Jensen, but don't be surprised if we rolled with just four interior guys (and three tackles) for a total of seven. It's not uncommon to only carry seven linemen during the regular season. I prefer keeping eight or nine but...

I think that we'll double dip at OL this year with Jensen and Wagner both potential free agents and the uncertainty that is Eugene Monroe. This is a strong OL class imo.

[The Raven]

32 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I think that we'll double dip at OL this year with Jensen and Wagner both potential free agents and the uncertainty that is Eugene Monroe. This is a strong OL class imo.

 

I forgot about Wagner also being a FA. Crap. We probably will double dip.

[PurpleCity5]

2 hours ago, The Raven said:

 

I forgot about Wagner also being a FA. Crap. We probably will double dip.

I think our cap situation will be much better by then. I can imagine Pitta's June 1st cut will clear up space by then along with Webb imminent 2017 FA, so I'm optimistic we'll keep him here, RTs don't typically break the bank. We'll have Brandon Williams, Ricky Wagner, and Will Hill as FAs, I honestly expect us to keep Williams and Wagner while letting Hill walk. However, we should have a back up plan. 

[Winchester]

On 2/4/2016 at 10:06 AM, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't see how Gilmore is supposed to be responsible largely for Wagner having the year he had. PFF focus and many analytical sites had high praise for Wagner. Not only that but Gilmore wasn't even a three-down starter at the early part of the last season none-the-less even stepped on the field much. This year Gilmore was the starter, so what exactly did he do for Wagner? Wagner is working himself back from the same injury that Jimmy had, I don't think its a coincidence both are struggling and I'd really point it to the injury he suffered, he started off the season really slow but improved as it went by.

 

I also know that Urschel and Jensen may not be favorable options, but this team has other needs to fill, some bigger than OG. 

 

If you have a realistic opinion on OL, than I don't see why you wouldn't on the WRs. You got a guy who has one year left, a guy who missed a whole year who we didn't see play at all, I'll give you Aiken but after that I don't see much talent on this team at all. 

 

OLB, cannot be toyed with. If you don't have a pass rush you will lose games and that's what happened this year. Against some of the best OLs in the league we couldn't even touch QBs, that's a serious problem, it speaks largely to the lack of depth you have there. 

 

I think you're being to hard on Wagner, I think with the foot injury behind him he'll return to dominance. I think the biggest question personally is at LT, you need to find a replacement there because Eugene Monroe just hasn't proven to stay on the field. That's the only position I'll be fine with prioritizing over CB, WR and OLB. 

I agree with all. Except I have confidence Jensen can be a very good guard and Urschel will be a top6 center. Not many centers can handle a nt man up like the 320lb Urschel. Urschel is nasty and csn turn opponents off the ball like zuttah can only dream. Listen to harbs talk. He wants Urschel to asjust at center and be the guy there. He likes Urschels strength and nasty agressive play. And Jensen is a 330 lb mauler with very underrated athleticism!! He has played on par with many early round guards like zeitler and Cooper. And is just scratching the surface as is Urschel at center.

[Ravenslifer]

On 2/3/2016 at 11:09 PM, ravenz2752 said:

Face it. KO is likely to leave. I know Ryan Jensen and John Urchel have played well, but does no one else see depth or competition a necessity? I see it as a bigger need than receiver

I would say define need in terms of draft position.  Yes we've taken guards with top 100 picks before, but for the most part solid starters can be found in later rounds.  Unless we're looking for an elite prospect at the position, it can be addressed later.  I think most of the players and positions people are discussing right now are guys they want the FO to target in the first 3 rounds. As an example, Jensen, Urschel, and Wagner were all later round picks.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Ravenslifer
spelling

[JoeyFlex5]

On 2/4/2016 at 6:03 AM, ALPHA said:

I think it's worth mentioning that the best guards in the league are converted undersized tackles, Yanda, Josh Sitton, Zach Martin, Joel Bitonio, Evan Mathis etc

And we have had moderate success with those guys. Its no coincidence that we've always been big on swing tackles and we pretty consistently have a good line

[balfan23]

On 2/3/2016 at 0:48 PM, Winchester said:

757 mcjacket and Charles I am very flattered you guys watch and remember everything about me. Would you guys like my Facebook so you can follow me closer?? It would be comical to really meet you guys!! Nearly $4mil in savings means a lot when there is a stronger more dominating center.

While their correction of your cap savings estimate was perhaps not stated as kindly as you would have liked.... the point is - Zuttah's savings is ~$1.3M, which is not by any definition "nearly" $4M.

I assume then you are quoting from the $3.5M number, which is post-June 1. That number should rarely even be looked at. It is not often that we use that cut designation (actually, I can't even remember when we've ever used it). The 2 main reasons: 1) you don't get to spend that money until after June 1, so you can't use the savings to prevent your own FAs from leaving or bring in FAs during the majority of the FA period and 2) it kicks dead money further down the road and causes future problems (like we don't already find ourselves with enough cap problems every off-season). 

This year it is even more unlikely that we'd use that designation for Zuttah, because IMO, if we were to use it, it would be for Pitta. His savings differential is large (bad news, of course means a larger chunk of dead money to push into the 2017 offseason). However, we may go that route with him, because the cost for us to sign our rookie class will be much higher this year than in years past. We should be able to use that money post-June 1. So I can't see Zuttah being anything more than the $1.3M savings. Given the cost to replace him and given there is a good chance we won't be able to retain KO, I just don't see that as being significant enough savings to warrant cutting him. 

 

[balfan23]

To the point of this thread ... we're talking about the need for depth, not the need for starting talent. If you look at things that way, virtually every position on the roster would be a position of "need". There is no question that we're going to need to pick someone up. Too bad that Myers flamed out. It would have been nice for him to be that depth. However, this is something that can be had off of the reasonable FA market (even the late cuts). 

To compare it with WR position is IMO inaccurate. At the 2 starting positions, we have great question marks: 1 is an aged vet coming off a serious injury and the other has promise, but is a complete unknown. A far greater position of need that G. 

[The Raven]

8 hours ago, Winchester said:

I agree with all. Except I have confidence Jensen can be a very good guard and Urschel will be a top6 center. Not many centers can handle a nt man up like the 320lb Urschel. Urschel is nasty and csn turn opponents off the ball like zuttah can only dream. Listen to harbs talk. He wants Urschel to asjust at center and be the guy there. He likes Urschels strength and nasty agressive play. And Jensen is a 330 lb mauler with very underrated athleticism!! He has played on par with many early round guards like zeitler and Cooper. And is just scratching the surface as is Urschel at center.

 

I like Urschel at center as much as the next guy but he got straight up beat by all of the bigger nose tackles he went up against. I like Jensen too but you are vastly overrating his ability.

[ALPHA]

14 minutes ago, The Raven said:

 

I like Urschel at center as much as the next guy but he got straight up beat by all of the bigger nose tackles he went up against. I like Jensen too but you are vastly overrating his ability.

I like Urschel he alway looks in shape and flashed some dominant ability at the point, but every center at this can flash ability the question is can he do it consistently? he's also chasing is PHD this offseason too so his mind is not on the game.

[rmcjacket23]

13 hours ago, balfan23 said:

While their correction of your cap savings estimate was perhaps not stated as kindly as you would have liked.... the point is - Zuttah's savings is ~$1.3M, which is not by any definition "nearly" $4M.

I assume then you are quoting from the $3.5M number, which is post-June 1. That number should rarely even be looked at. It is not often that we use that cut designation (actually, I can't even remember when we've ever used it). The 2 main reasons: 1) you don't get to spend that money until after June 1, so you can't use the savings to prevent your own FAs from leaving or bring in FAs during the majority of the FA period and 2) it kicks dead money further down the road and causes future problems (like we don't already find ourselves with enough cap problems every off-season). 

This year it is even more unlikely that we'd use that designation for Zuttah, because IMO, if we were to use it, it would be for Pitta. His savings differential is large (bad news, of course means a larger chunk of dead money to push into the 2017 offseason). However, we may go that route with him, because the cost for us to sign our rookie class will be much higher this year than in years past. We should be able to use that money post-June 1. So I can't see Zuttah being anything more than the $1.3M savings. Given the cost to replace him and given there is a good chance we won't be able to retain KO, I just don't see that as being significant enough savings to warrant cutting him. 

 

Don't waste your time. He already acknowledged his source for his $4M cap savings number was "heard it from a friend I know", by which numerous people confirmed his friends were morons and just flat wrong.

Kind of disheartening that he's allowed to post things that are just flat wrong and not have to substantiate something that isn't subject to opinion.

[cobrajet]

I think the bigger need would be for Tackle. I do not think Hurst is developing and I worry about him getting Joe re-injured. Monroe is coming off shoulder surgery and K.O. may sign with another team.

[Virginia 55]

Our o-line is one our weakest units. We need major help in the trenches. Our running backs will suffer this year as a result. 

[rmcjacket23]

To answer the OP question... because quality offensive line play is achieved in a group effort, not on an individual "name on the back of the jersey" effort.

We've seen no name lineman play extremely well as a unit annually, and we've seen big name lineman who couldn't block a baby as a unit.

 

[usmccharles]

6 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

To answer the OP question... because quality offensive line play is achieved in a group effort, not on an individual "name on the back of the jersey" effort.

We've seen no name lineman play extremely well as a unit annually, and we've seen big name lineman who couldn't block a baby as a unit.

 

This is key right here.  KO leaving is a big hit, but he himself doesn't make an offensive line dominant, its a group effort and the longer we can keep the same line the better they will be. 

[AnthonyGames]

We definitely need more depth at all O-line positions. I do think however that we need more help at tackle than we do at guard. Losing KO is tough because he is a top 5 or even top 3 guard in the NFL. However, we still have Yanda (the best guard in the NFL), Jensen who is a mauler, and Urschel who's showed a lot of promise (I like him better at center though). Both Jensen and Urschel could also play center to back up Zuttah. If we could add one more good guard to back them up, I'd feel really good. It's easier to find a guard than a tackle. Tackle you need ideal size, strength, athleticism, and intelligence- while a guard can lack some of these traits and still be effective.

I don't understand all this talk about Waggoner being ineffective. He was rated at one point a top 3 right tackle; he was hurt this past year, but I think he'll rebound to be a solid player for us. I've seen him provide stellar run blocking. Monroe is the true wild card. When healthy has he been good? Yeah. Sure. But, can we count on him to be healthy? Monroe claims he's 100% right now, but he probably just doesn't want to be cut. Say Monroe is healthy and is able to be the starting LT for us, who are our backups? Hurst? That's bad. We NEED more tackle depth. If we draft Stanley, I think it will solidify our line with depth and our future LT, but it wouldn't provide us an "instant coffee guy." I think we could find a solid tackle in the end of the second or third round. I didn't like us getting rid of Jah Reid. He showed glimpses of being good, but was hurt and penalized often; he went to the Chiefs and played very well for them. He was good depth for us.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

23 hours ago, Virginia 55 said:

Our o-line is one our weakest units. We need major help in the trenches. Our running backs will suffer this year as a result. 

 

 

Wagner,Yanda,Zuttah and Monroe sounds like a pretty strong O line to me as long as Monroe stays relatively healthy.They may not be top 5ish like they were with Osemele,but those four guys are all good football players and make for a strong core.Plus,we're high enough in the second round to either get the top rated OG in the draft on day 2 or trade up to the back half of the first and draft him.His name is Cody Whithair and he has experience playing LT in college too so there's a chance he could slide over and fill in for Monroe if he gets hurt.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Sign Vasquez who can play well at guard or tackle and be depth for both, and even push the young, potential starters for time at guard. 

Or, draft an athletic but raw tackle in the middle rounds that Castillo can work with and develop. 

I haven't heard much about DeOndre Wesley (think that's his name). He got injured in the PS game vs the Eagles but the team seemed really high on him. Think we carried him at times even with the injury to avoid losing him on the practice squad.

could be they know something we don't and they have confidence in him as a back up tackle, or at least see him as a legit internal candidate if there's not a better one brought in through the draft.

[BmoreBird22]

20 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Sign Vasquez who can play well at guard or tackle and be depth for both, and even push the young, potential starters for time at guard. 

Or, draft an athletic but raw tackle in the middle rounds that Castillo can work with and develop. 

I haven't heard much about DeOndre Wesley (think that's his name). He got injured in the PS game vs the Eagles but the team seemed really high on him. Think we carried him at times even with the injury to avoid losing him on the practice squad.

could be they know something we don't and they have confidence in him as a back up tackle, or at least see him as a legit internal candidate if there's not a better one brought in through the draft.

rmw was telling me, but Wesley is actually their second string right tackle and they view him as the backup plan to Wagner if Wagner is lost next year.

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Sign Vasquez who can play well at guard or tackle and be depth for both, and even push the young, potential starters for time at guard. 

Or, draft an athletic but raw tackle in the middle rounds that Castillo can work with and develop. 

I haven't heard much about DeOndre Wesley (think that's his name). He got injured in the PS game vs the Eagles but the team seemed really high on him. Think we carried him at times even with the injury to avoid losing him on the practice squad.

could be they know something we don't and they have confidence in him as a back up tackle, or at least see him as a legit internal candidate if there's not a better one brought in through the draft.

 

47 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

rmw was telling me, but Wesley is actually their second string right tackle and they view him as the backup plan to Wagner if Wagner is lost next year.

Yeah Zrebiec reported back in January (maybe?) that the team is really high on Wesley and view him as a future starter at RT.  I saw him echo those sentiments again the other day.  It sounds like they view him as a swing T for now, but it sounds like he could be plan B at some point.  Apparently Castillo pushed hard to sign him after the draft last year.

[GrimCoconut]

17 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

 

Yeah Zrebiec reported back in January (maybe?) that the team is really high on Wesley and view him as a future starter at RT.  I saw him echo those sentiments again the other day.  It sounds like they view him as a swing T for now, but it sounds like he could be plan B at some point.  Apparently Castillo pushed hard to sign him after the draft last year.

Interesting predicament. I wonder if we will legitimately play Wagner at LT. That sure would be something if we solved the LT dilemma using Wagner at LT. I'm not sure how I feel about such a move, because as we have all seen moving from RT to LT doesn't always yield great results even if the guy once looked good at RT. 

[rmw10]

7 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

Interesting predicament. I wonder if we will legitimately play Wagner at LT. That sure would be something if we solved the LT dilemma using Wagner at LT. I'm not sure how I feel about such a move, because as we have all seen moving from RT to LT doesn't always yield great results even if the guy once looked good at RT. 

Yeah I don't know that they're willing to put full trust in Wesley, or at least that's my understanding. It sounds like he's more of an option on the 'ifs' - if Wagner moves to the left side or if we can't re-sign him. Definitely sounds like he's purely plan B at this point. 

[GrimCoconut]

7 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Yeah I don't know that they're willing to put full trust in Wesley, or at least that's my understanding. It sounds like he's more of an option on the 'ifs' - if Wagner moves to the left side or if we can't re-sign him. Definitely sounds like he's purely plan B at this point. 

I think the more likely scenario is we stick with Monroe at LT & Wagner at RT and keep Wesley around as a reserve and then start him if we lose Wagner. Definitely agree with what you're saying here, just adding on to it.

[rmw10]

Just now, GrimCoconut said:

I think the more likely scenario is we stick with Monroe at LT & Wagner at RT and keep Wesley around as a reserve and then start him if we lose Wagner. Definitely agree with what you're saying here, just adding on to it.

Yep. Only way I see it being different is if we can find a way to add a LT somehow. If so, just swap out Monroe and the same principle applies. If Monroe does stick, I'd expect a backup somewhere in the draft, too. 

[Maryland]

Never really thought about Wesley as anything more than depth. Definitely something to watch in preseason for sure. Can't wait! 

The thought of Wagner at LT scares me a bit because I think he lacks the quickness to keep up with elite speed rushers, but maybe he can rebound from his Lisfranc injury 100% and show what he's made of. Before his final season at Wisc. he was thought of as a LT prospect, for what that's worth.