Arthur Brown - Is his time up?

[757RavensFan]

Per OverTheCap, his cap hit for 2016 is $1.1M.  His dead money is roughly $240k w/ a cap savings of $890k (pre June 1st cut). 

Is it time to let him go, to free up some cap money?  To say he's under performed is an understatement.  

[Willbacker]

Its gonna be hard for the Ravens to admit they made a mistake by trading 3 draft picks for a complete and total bust but they did. No time on defense and no value to SpTeams. Move on.

[Jacquouille]

I have difficulties figuring out how to turn his career around. He's had opportunities and just couldn't take advantage of it. The fact that Orr was used more and more while he was staying on the bench just sums it up, he just can't seem to translate to the next level. And if we could save nearly 1M by cutting him, I would tend to let him go.

[757RavensFan]

A comment that stood out to me during the State of the Union is when Harbaugh said they're not keeping anymore project players. 

IMO, Brown is definitely one of the guys he's talking about.  They're not waiting around any longer for a player to "get it".  They're not saving

any roster spots based on potential.  You either produce and contribute immediately or you're outta here.  

[Willbacker]

6 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

A comment that stood out to me during the State of the Union is when Harbaugh said they're not keeping anymore project players. 

IMO, Brown is definitely one of the guys he's talking about.  They're not waiting around any longer for a player to "get it".  They're not saving

any roster spots based on potential.  You either produce and contribute immediately or you're outta here.  

Patriots have been doing it that way for years.

[rmw10]

I think he very well could be gone, but it won't be for cap reasons.  With the replacement on the roster at $435K, you're looking at a whopping $455K in savings, which is negligible in NFL terms.  If he's gone, it's because he lost the battle in camp.  I don't see any reason to get rid of him before then unless we think there's just nothing there to work on anymore.

[rmcjacket23]

11 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I think he very well could be gone, but it won't be for cap reasons.  With the replacement on the roster at $435K, you're looking at a whopping $455K in savings, which is negligible in NFL terms.  If he's gone, it's because he lost the battle in camp.  I don't see any reason to get rid of him before then unless we think there's just nothing there to work on anymore.

I actually think he legitimately gets a chance to compete for a starting job in camp. I don't think he wins that job and may ultimately be released, but I agree he makes it until at least training camp.

[usmccharles]

42 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

A comment that stood out to me during the State of the Union is when Harbaugh said they're not keeping anymore project players. 

IMO, Brown is definitely one of the guys he's talking about.  They're not waiting around any longer for a player to "get it".  They're not saving

any roster spots based on potential.  You either produce and contribute immediately or you're outta here.  

Then shouldnt Elam be gone too?

Edited February 2, 2016 by usmccharles

[rmcjacket23]

Just now, usmccharles said:

Then shouldnt Elam be gone to?

Perhaps, though take into account that the FO was generally "content" with Elam's rookie season, and he missed all of last season with an injury.

He basically has one mediocre season, one bad season (though some would argue he was playing out of position) and one injured season. I wouldn't consider that to be a "project" in that sense.

Art Brown basically has never played because he never showed he was good enough to get on the field. That's a "project" in my eyes.

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Perhaps, though take into account that the FO was generally "content" with Elam's rookie season, and he missed all of last season with an injury.

He basically has one mediocre season, one bad season (though some would argue he was playing out of position) and one injured season. I wouldn't consider that to be a "project" in that sense.

Art Brown basically has never played because he never showed he was good enough to get on the field. That's a "project" in my eyes.

valid points.  I hope he could at least become depth

[rmcjacket23]

1 minute ago, usmccharles said:

valid points.  I hope he could at least become depth

But, conversely, I'd say Elam is at best competing for a backup safety role, since it looks like we are set at FS and SS. Given that, if for some reason he is to lose that job to a veteran or draft pick and falls down to 4th or 5th on the depth chart at safety, I'd certainly consider his roster spot in jeopardy due to the cost of it.

Could save roughly $1M in cap space, and you could sign a veteran who is cut for close to that price in July/August.

[berad]

Not that big of a savings, he'll probably play his contract out

[757RavensFan]

15 minutes ago, berad said:

Not that big of a savings, he'll probably play his contract out

 

If Joe's contract is not done before free agency, all savings will be considered important. 

[berad]

14 minutes ago, 757RavensFan said:

 

If Joe's contract is not done before free agency, all savings will be considered important. 

I'd be surprised if that's not the case but you're right

[thieverycorporation]

Per Haubaugh there is no more waiting and wanting. He's probably gone IMHO.

[JoeyFlex5]

the difference between brown and elam is that elam still has some value as a depth guy, obviously a bust as he does not seem to be worth a first round selection, but still brings secondary depth to a team that desperately needs it, i think if he is on a snap count and given assignments that he doesnt have to overthink than he could be solid. 

 

arthur brown on the other hand, needs his hand held, he has zero anticipation, zero awareness, he gets flat out embarrassed everytime he tries to cover a route, the only thing he has ever looked good at was the delayed blitz, and he cant even make the active roster let alone get a spot on the field. i hate to say it, because i was a huge fan of his, but i think hes done in this league. maybe a 4-3 team takes him and it clicks for him but i doubt it

[Deflated Football]

4 hours ago, 757RavensFan said:

A comment that stood out to me during the State of the Union is when Harbaugh said they're not keeping anymore project players. 

IMO, Brown is definitely one of the guys he's talking about.  They're not waiting around any longer for a player to "get it".  They're not saving

any roster spots based on potential.  You either produce and contribute immediately or you're outta here.  

I don't want to hijack your thread, but this got me thinking. Who else on the active roster would be considered a project player? 

[Wildabeast88]

3 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

But, conversely, I'd say Elam is at best competing for a backup safety role, since it looks like we are set at FS and SS. Given that, if for some reason he is to lose that job to a veteran or draft pick and falls down to 4th or 5th on the depth chart at safety, I'd certainly consider his roster spot in jeopardy due to the cost of it.

Could save roughly $1M in cap space, and you could sign a veteran who is cut for close to that price in July/August.

The real question with Elam becomes does he stay around because next year is Hill's last year under contract so we need to figure what s going on with Hill otherwise I say let Elam play out the year if we resign Hill maybe Elam turns into a comp pick

[757RavensFan]

8 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

I don't want to hijack your thread, but this got me thinking. Who else on the active roster would be considered a project player? 

Off the top of my head:

Kapron Lewis-Moore

Brent Urban

Mike Campanaro

Tray Walker

Darren Waller

Cam Worthy

Nick Perry 

Edit:

Daniel Brown

Edited February 2, 2016 by 757RavensFan

[rmw10]

5 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

I don't want to hijack your thread, but this got me thinking. Who else on the active roster would be considered a project player? 

Pretty much every late round WR we've ever drafted lol

Tray Walker might fall under the "project" label.

[The Raven]

15 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Pretty much every late round WR we've ever drafted lol

Tray Walker might fall under the "project" label.

 

There ain't no "might" about it. A fourth round DB who might've played five defensive snaps - if that - on a team that desperately needed DBs is a project. He was a bad pick.

[rmcjacket23]

18 minutes ago, Wildabeast88 said:

The real question with Elam becomes does he stay around because next year is Hill's last year under contract so we need to figure what s going on with Hill otherwise I say let Elam play out the year if we resign Hill maybe Elam turns into a comp pick

Well, not sure what kind of comp pick Elam would fetch at this point. He'd probably have to settle for bottom-barrel deals on the open market, meaning he probably wouldn't net a comp pick at all. We are getting a late round comp pick for Owen Daniels, and he signed for over $4M a year. No chance Elam gets that on the open market right now.

But yes, in theory, if Elam bounces back, he'd be cheaper to extend than Hill, but my guess is that they'd like to keep Hill around long-term. He would be 27-28 when his contract expires, so still playing at a high level age-wise.

Looking way too far ahead to 2017, Hill, Brandon Williams, and Rick Wagner are the "big three" UFAs. Williams will likely get a strong contract, still too early to tell what Wagner's price range will be. The good news is that SS price tags aren't really that high, so Hill should be largely affordable.

[GrimCoconut]

I'm not so sure we stop drafting project players. That sounds like some statement that's been exaggerated. 

That said, I think what Harbaugh meant was we're not keeping dead weight, which are guys who don't contribute whether it's as depth or special teams. Arthur Brown sure sounds like this kind of player. 

He'll get a chance to prove himself but he won't stick if he can't play on ST and can't make an impact on defense. He's got to put it together. He's been a bigger bust than Elam imo. 

[rmw10]

12 minutes ago, The Raven said:

 

There ain't no "might" about it. A fourth round DB who might've played five defensive snaps - if that - on a team that desperately needed DBs is a project. He was a bad pick.

Definitely think it was a reach, but they apparently really liked him.  Tough to say what his future holds.  On one hand, I get that you expect more from a 4th round pick at such a weak position.  On the other hand, he did come from a tiny school so it's a big jump.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, rmw10 said:

Definitely think it was a reach, but they apparently really liked him.  Tough to say what his future holds.  On one hand, I get that you expect more from a 4th round pick at such a weak position.  On the other hand, he did come from a tiny school so it's a big jump.

A shame we missed out on Diggs for him in hindsight; however, I was personally clamoring for Diggs. I do understand why we passed on him, though, since we needed a CB and didn't get one yet. Walker was a pure needs pick. 

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

A shame we missed out on Diggs for him in hindsight; however, I was personally clamoring for Diggs. I do understand why we passed on him, though, since we needed a CB and didn't get one yet. Walker was a pure needs pick. 

Loved Diggs as well.  Feisty little slot CB.  I think Walker ended up being the choice because the bigger, outside CBs were bare at that point.  It seems that's what we really wanted all along.

[BmoreBird22]

38 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Loved Diggs as well.  Feisty little slot CB.  I think Walker ended up being the choice because the bigger, outside CBs were bare at that point.  It seems that's what we really wanted all along.

He meant Stephon

[BmoreBird22]

5 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

But, conversely, I'd say Elam is at best competing for a backup safety role, since it looks like we are set at FS and SS. Given that, if for some reason he is to lose that job to a veteran or draft pick and falls down to 4th or 5th on the depth chart at safety, I'd certainly consider his roster spot in jeopardy due to the cost of it.

Could save roughly $1M in cap space, and you could sign a veteran who is cut for close to that price in July/August.

I wouldn't consider the Ravens set at either safety spot. Will Hill's play trailed off considerably as the season went on and Hill was often the one subbing out for Lardarius Webb, which should really say something since Webb was coming in to play FS, not SS. Hill just had way too many mental lapses in deep zones. I felt like when he played that FS role in 2014 he was much better, he just lacked the range for the job, but if 2015 showed anything, it was that he didn't have the mental aspect of it down. 

Also, this is completely assuming that Webb agrees to take a pay cut and doesn't end up flat out cut. His base salary would only rank him 17th overall in the NFL, but the cap hit of $9.5M would be 400k short of Earl Thomas and would rank third in the NFL. The Ravens would have to find a way to cut that down if he has any hope of staying.

As far as Elam goes, I at least have hope for him because in 2013, his two best games (Chicago, Detroit) were games were he was actually utilized in that traditional strong safety role. 2014 was a bit of a disappointment for me because I felt that more often than not he was in a position to make a really big play for a loss or make the pass deflection, he just didn't get his head around or he missed a tackle. Nothing was more frustrating than watching him have perfect coverage on Jericho Cotchery, but fail to defend the pass because he didn't get his head around. Elam at least has a potential if he can clean up his technique.

But for the sake of the thread, I don't see any reason to keep hanging onto Arthur Brown. I was excited to land him, but he's clearly too undersized to be taking on these guards and centers. I feel like his confidence is probably shot at this point in time and he'd be far better suited to play the WILL in the 4-3. No reason to hang onto him and have him take up a roster spot.

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, rmw10 said:

Loved Diggs as well.  Feisty little slot CB.  I think Walker ended up being the choice because the bigger, outside CBs were bare at that point.  It seems that's what we really wanted all along.

 

39 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

He meant Stephon

Yeah, I meant Stefon but I did like Quandre a lot. Sucks Walker didn't pan out.

[GrimCoconut]

35 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

But for the sake of the thread, I don't see any reason to keep hanging onto Arthur Brown. I was excited to land him, but he's clearly too undersized to be taking on these guards and centers. I feel like his confidence is probably shot at this point in time and he'd be far better suited to play the WILL in the 4-3. No reason to hang onto him and have him take up a roster spot.

I think his confidence is shot and that's why he's amounting to nothing. I really believe that's a big part of player success and I can't think of many players who missed multiple early years and became something.