Elite Pass Rush is a MUST!

[sflegend89]

If Championship Sunday taught us anything it's the tremendous amount of value and game changing ability that an elite pass rush brings. We saw it first hand when Suggs went down and our pass rush went into the tank, it was easily the biggest contributing factor to the awful stretch of games we had prior to Flacco going down. 

 

Then we saw the flip side of that today with Von Miller and Ware making game altering plays that ultimately brought the Pats high powered offense to a screeching halt and propelled Denver into the SB. Forget Talib, Harris Jr, Ward, and all the great players they have in their secondary, it started with the pass rush and they don't win that game without their edge rushers despite having the best secondary in football.

 

We aren't in terrible position with a presumably healthy Suggs coming back opposite Doom. They're like a poor man's Ware/Miller. But both of them are getting up there in age and it's definitely time to add a young buck there to be groomed and bring us into the future as well as provide depth. Without an elite 3-4 Edge rusher in this years draft we will have to get creative to bring in talent at that position. 

 

What would you like to see us do there? Scour the FA market? Trade up for a blue chipper like Bosa and trust that his talent transcends the scheme? Personally I would like to see multiple mid round picks invested there. 

 

A: Because we need the depth

B: Because it helps our odds of striking gold (Yannick Ngakoue comes to mind as a high upside sleeper)

Edited January 25, 2016 by sflegend89

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I agree 100%

Look at the Panthers this year. You had a major stud in Kawann Short. But around him, you had guys who could straight up pin their ears back and get to the QB.

Mario Addison

Charles Johnson later on

Jared Allen

Kony Ealy

Star L

Dwan Edwards

Thomas Davis can get to the QB.

That's a ton of guys. None of them are amazing, but they have a ton of capable guys.

We have Doom. Doom is a very good pass rusher. But outside of him we basically have Jernigan, and at times Smith.

We need more depth here. Straight up.

[RaineV1]

We need passrushers and the ability to stop quick throws. A good passrush doesn't help as much if a QB can kill us with throwing a ton of quick slants and screens. Carolina's passrush is so good because their LBs are incredibly athletic and can stop those quick passes to the inside.

[sflegend89]

The Panthers give us a great template to work towards as far as building a pass rush. Denver's template is much harder to obtain because Miller was a top 3 pick and Ware was a premiere FA. We don't need to hit a home run there just yet with Doom still playing at a high level and Suggs still very capable even coming off an injury. But what we do need is talented depth behind them and right now that's something we severely lack.

 

As of right now if either Suggs or Doom miss any extended period of time next year the defense will be handicapped in a big way (like we saw this year). Time to make some big moves there, draft there early and sign a quality FA.. if we can't rush the passer it doesn't matter who's in the secondary.

Edited January 25, 2016 by sflegend89

[redrum52]

We had a pass rush just last year.  The problem was we couldn't cover across.  They go hand in hand.  The Broncos have the personnel to get pressure all along the their front, from outside pressure and interior.  They also have 3 great corners.  The only other team who can really do what they do, is a healthy Seahawks.

[PurpleCity5]

It's not just the pass rush, its the secondary as well which we need badly. Denver's secondary is #1 in the league and went a streak of like 5 games in which they had a pick 6, I'm sure Tom Brady thought of that every time he took a snap, it changed what their offense revolves around which is short passes and dink-and-dunks, it forced them to change their entire offense. Carolina pretty much leads the league in turnovers, in forces a QB to take more time in the pocket and of course, forces more sacks. Those teams are also allowed to blitz more because of their secondary.

 

In our case, we had a great pass rush in 2014, got to the Divisional round, and got dotted up by Brady. Why? Our secondary was awful. It doesn't matter if we have a great pass rush or not if our secondary is abysmal, I personally like more pass rush, but I don't want to go overboard and forget our secondary.

[sflegend89]

We need passrushers and the ability to stop quick throws. A good passrush doesn't help as much if a QB can kill us with throwing a ton of quick slants and screens. Carolina's passrush is so good because their LBs are incredibly athletic and can stop those quick passes to the inside.

 

Which is why I wouldn't be opposed to trading back and taking Jaylon Smith to pair with Mosley going forward with CJ being the run stopping thumper and Smith being the sideline to sideline cover guy. But make no mistake about the defense will live and die with our ability to rush the passer and we saw that first hand this season. It's a huge area of emphasis heading into FA/Draft and I really think Ozzie and Eric are going to make a concentrated effort to reload at Edge rusher with multiple new additions.

 

I think our absurdly bad lack of depth there is the reason Pees is still the DC, the front office saw that he was massively under equipped with pass rushers and it really ruined a lot of the stuff Pees wanted to do.

[AsianRice]

I totally agree with all the posts here; we really need more depth in our OLB roster.  We can't really depend on Suggs and Doom all the time cuz if one of them goes down, we have no legit pass rusher for substitute....

 

This year draft is very crucial for our future.....

[sflegend89]

We had a pass rush just last year.  The problem was we couldn't cover across.  They go hand in hand.  The Broncos have the personnel to get pressure all along the their front, from outside pressure and interior.  They also have 3 great corners.  The only other team who can really do what they do, is a healthy Seahawks.

 

I didn't see one after week 1. Upshaw had to start and got stone walled constantly. Brought in Babin, was so ineffective he wasn't worth the roster spot, put Za'Darius on the edge out of pure desperation and it was a very mixed bag, no consistency and clearly isn't his most natural position.

 

QB's held the ball all day on us and that was the source of an absurd amount of 3rd down conversions and chunk plays from coverage breakdowns, I know what you're saying about creating pressure all along the front and not just with the Edge rushers but it still was a fatal flaw with our personnel after Suggs went down. Doom did his thing but we might as well have had a sack of potatoes in Suggs old spot because nobody played consistently good football for us there for the remainder of the year. It's like we had no contingency plan in place if either Suggs/Doom went down and failed to realize the limitations of Upshaw as a pass rusher until it was already too late.

[PurpleCity5]

I didn't see one after week 1. Upshaw had to start and got stone walled constantly. Brought in Babin, was so ineffective he wasn't worth the roster spot, put Za'Darius on the edge out of pure desperation and it was a very mixed bag, no consistency and clearly isn't his most natural position.

 

QB's held the ball all day on us and that was the source of an absurd amount of 3rd down conversions and chunk plays from coverage breakdowns, I know what you're saying about creating pressure all along the front and not just with the Edge rushers but it still was a fatal flaw with our personnel after Suggs went down. Doom did his thing but we might as well have had a sack of potatoes in Suggs old spot because nobody played consistently good football for us there for the remainder of the year. It's like we had no contingency plan in place if either Suggs/Doom went down and failed to realize the limitations of Upshaw as a pass rusher until it was already too late.

He was talking about 2014, we had a great pass rush that year but it didn't matter when we ran into great teams because our secondary sucked.

[FlackAttack]

elite pass rush is a must? really? is this a new thing in the NFL??

 

 

SMH

[The Raven]

We need a better pass rush. We have nothing close to Denver or Carolina or Seattle. Our pass rush isn't even on Cincy's level. We need Tim Jernigan to step up and be a consistent interior rusher. We need Ozzie to enter 2015 and acquire linemen that can penetrate and rush the passer consistently. We need Carl Davis to step up and dominate next season. What we missed most was an interior rush. When you have that quarterbacks get scared. When you have an interior rush, your edge guys get more sacks. Interior pressure cripples offenses.

 

Also Pees really needs to actually some freaking stunts and loops. Jernigan and Zadarius would be lethal on a loop/drive stunt. People criticize Pees for everything except this. His philosophy on the dline is just horrible. His four man rush schemes are awful.

[ALPHA]

The Panthers and Broncos are well balanced teams you can't just put an overemphasis on pass rush, back when Jared Allen put up 22 sacks the Vikings still came last in pass defense. We need to improve in all three levels of the defense.

[sflegend89]

He was talking about 2014, we had a great pass rush that year but it didn't matter when we ran into great teams because our secondary sucked.

 

Gotcha. Not trying to understate the importance of a good secondary. I think we very well could end up picking Ramsey or Hargreaves for that very reason. But I still prioritize the pass rush over the secondary in terms of overall success on defense. Priorities aside it will always be a group effort, a great pass rush doesn't eliminate the need for good secondary play or vice versa.

 

The 2014 playoffs was an abnormally bad secondary for us, I mean you're talking about no Jimmy Smith and and a former PS player starting in Melvin opposite a hobbled Webb. Brady relentlessly attacked Melvin with the quick breaking routes and ultimately on the trick play that he got scorched on. I definitely see the value of a good secondary but in that particular game it was a vastly under-prepared corner just getting exposed in crunch time. 

 

Ideally let's get both the secondary and pass rush reloaded.

[redrum52]

We need a better pass rush. We have nothing close to Denver or Carolina or Seattle. Our pass rush isn't even on Cincy's level. We need Tim Jernigan to step up and be a consistent interior rusher. We need Ozzie to enter 2015 and acquire linemen that can penetrate and rush the passer consistently. We need Carl Davis to step up and dominate next season. What we missed most was an interior rush. When you have that quarterbacks get scared. When you have an interior rush, your edge guys get more sacks. Interior pressure cripples offenses.

 

Also Pees really needs to actually some freaking stunts and loops. Jernigan and Zadarius would be lethal on a loop/drive stunt. People criticize Pees for everything except this. His philosophy on the dline is just horrible. His four man rush schemes are awful.

 

This has been one of my beefs.  Earlier DCs utilized this a lot more.  It seems we rarely stunt, but when we do, it's effective.  Lack of stunts and our blitz timing, just seems off.  And by blitz timing, I mean he shows too early, giving the offense time to adjust.  I'm not asking for "Organized Chaos," just want to try and create more confusion at the line.

 

You're also right about interior pressure.  That's what devastates qbs.  Edge pressure doesn't mean much if the passer has even semi decent pocket presence or awareness.

[ALPHA]

I think it's worth mentioning that an elite pass rush is an ideal that very few teams actually have, it's not exactly something that a GM can make happen overnight.

[arnie_uk]

We need a better pass rush. We have nothing close to Denver or Carolina or Seattle. Our pass rush isn't even on Cincy's level. We need Tim Jernigan to step up and be a consistent interior rusher. We need Ozzie to enter 2015 and acquire linemen that can penetrate and rush the passer consistently. We need Carl Davis to step up and dominate next season. What we missed most was an interior rush. When you have that quarterbacks get scared. When you have an interior rush, your edge guys get more sacks. Interior pressure cripples offenses.

Also Pees really needs to actually some freaking stunts and loops. Jernigan and Zadarius would be lethal on a loop/drive stunt. People criticize Pees for everything except this. His philosophy on the dline is just horrible. His four man rush schemes are awful.

from what I've read, his rushing the qb tactics is everything people complain about.... well what i do anyway.

[sflegend89]

I think it's worth mentioning that an elite pass rush is an ideal that very few teams actually have, it's not exactly something that a GM can make happen overnight.

 

Definitely not an easy task or something that materializes overnight but it's no coincidence that 2 teams with an elite pass rush are playing in the SB (And the Patriots with a very good one were right there as well). It's something to strive towards and make a concentrated effort into achieving and that includes both the interior DL and Edge rushers.

 

We need a stable of guys who can create pressure up front. The rotation is way too top heavy on the outside, we have legit Edge rushers in Doom/Suggs but the depth behind them is pitiful. Hopefully Za'Darius will be more consistent and explosive in year 2 but we need more talent there BAD. I wouldn't bother bringing Upshaw back unless it's at a bargain price because we can spend that money on a guy who can pass rush in FA. It's not that Upshaw is a bad player or anything but his skill set just doesn't fit what we need out of that spot.

Edited January 25, 2016 by sflegend89

[usmccharles]

And now is the time to get a guy for Suggs to groom.  Be a situational pass rusher now and then take over when its time.  We dont know how Suggs will be after this injury, i still think he will make a difference, but i honestly think hes got two years left.  Having a great pass rush makes everyone's job easier, especially the secondary. 

[sflegend89]

And now is the time to get a guy for Suggs to groom.  Be a situational pass rusher now and then take over when its time.  We dont know how Suggs will be after this injury, i still think he will make a difference, but i honestly think hes got two years left.  Having a great pass rush makes everyone's job easier, especially the secondary. 

 

I think we had that in mind with Bud Dupree last year after Peters went off the board but Pitt took him ahead of us as these two teams are built very similarly and tend to like similar prospects (Like we saw in round 2 with Maxx as well). I recall a press conference in which Eric said there was a "Cornerback" (Peters), a Pass Rusher (Dupree), "and Breshad" when he was talking about how if Breshad was gone they would've traded out of the 1st round.

 

Of course we went on to pick his Kentucky teammate ZDS so I think we definitely were in on Dupree in round 1

Edited January 25, 2016 by sflegend89

[PurpleCity5]

Gotcha. Not trying to understate the importance of a good secondary. I think we very well could end up picking Ramsey or Hargreaves for that very reason. But I still prioritize the pass rush over the secondary in terms of overall success on defense. Priorities aside it will always be a group effort, a great pass rush doesn't eliminate the need for good secondary play or vice versa.

The 2014 playoffs was an abnormally bad secondary for us, I mean you're talking about no Jimmy Smith and and a former PS player starting in Melvin opposite a hobbled Webb. Brady relentlessly attacked Melvin with the quick breaking routes and ultimately on the trick play that he got scorched on. I definitely see the value of a good secondary but in that particular game it was a vastly under-prepared corner just getting exposed in crunch time.

Ideally let's get both the secondary and pass rush reloaded.

What happened in 2014 was the result in the FO over-confidence in players like Chykie Brown who are simply PS players. Letting Corey Graham go was a pretty dumb move and its killing us at the moment. If we had Graham, Webb could easily have been let go of by now. The CB position is honestly a huge hole on the roster and the secondary is just as big of a problem. The thing is, Denver and Carolina have a great secondary, which pretty much allows them to bring the Heat, and we all know Wade Philips isn't afraid to blitz. I think we need to prioritze the pass rush, but lets not forget that the secondary was a big reason Denver and Carolina is in the SB, we need a secondary in order to win and to your point, we need to prioritize both.

[usmccharles]

I think we had that in mind with Bud Dupree last year after Peters went off the board but Pitt took him ahead of us as these two teams are built very similarly and tend to like similar prospects (Like we saw in round 2 with Maxx as well). I recall a press conference in which Eric said there was a "Cornerback" (Peters), a Pass Rusher (Dupree), "and Breshad" when he was talking about how if Breshad was gone they would've traded out of the 1st round.

 

Of course we went on to pick his Kentucky teammate ZDS so I think we definitely were in on Dupree in round 1

Yea but i think we got the better value with Z. 

[Winchester]

What happened in 2014 was the result in the FO over-confidence in players like Chykie Brown who are simply PS players. Letting Corey Graham go was a pretty dumb move and its killing us at the moment. If we had Graham, Webb could easily have been let go of by now. The CB position is honestly a huge hole on the roster and the secondary is just as big of a problem. The thing is, Denver and Carolina have a great secondary, which pretty much allows them to bring the Heat, and we all know Wade Philips isn't afraid to blitz. I think we need to prioritze the pass rush, but lets not forget that the secondary was a big reason Denver and Carolina is in the SB, we need a secondary in order to win and to your point, we need to prioritize both.

Bad draft picks and terrible free agency decisions yet peeps continue to say his decisions are great. Sorry guys it takes drafts and salary cap space for signings to sculpt a great defense. It is not happening with one draft!! Suggs will not be elite at 34 coming off Achilles injury #2. Dumervil is no spring chicken either. The fastest way to a tough defense is for Mosley to craft his cover skills. He has the instincts speed and athleticism to do so. Then find him a running mate that can not only cover like a safety but a tough physical Linebacker as well. A LB tandem that covers like safety's is as much of a drag to offenses as a strong rush. QBs have acknowledged it before. When safety's can drop to positions that LBs usually can not get to, to the QB it feels like there are 12 or 13 players on defense!! That is what stumped the patsies!! Their top2 receivers are not long threats and LBs helped cover them and the extra players covering took Gronk and Edelman out of the game. The OLine and not having a legit speed receiver hurt the patsies. And by speed receiver I don't just mean a fast receiver but a fast viable receiver!! BTW the Broncos would not of done that to the current ravens OLine. The odds are stacked against the ravens finding a true stud edge rusher in this draft. And one defensive back is not changing the defenses fortunes like a powerball ticket. About as wishful thinking as a powerball. Ravens need to find some good rushers that will play better within the ravens system and motivated atmosphere. Players like Mike Neal as a 3-4 end or perhaps Nick Perry at rush Linebacker. Players underperforming on a poorly motivated Packer team. As well as cornerbacks about to breakout. Meanwhile the ravens offense is a #1 receiver from being elite as well as a #2, maybe a skilled receiver like Quick or Marqise with actually #1 breakout potential!! The OLine,QB and coaches are set in marble!! OLine is going to be great next year!!

[rmcjacket23]

Overreaction.

You know what's a must? A well rounded defense that has no huge weaknesses. Just because the two teams going to the SB have great pass rushes THIS YEAR doesn't mean it's a must. Last season it certainly wasn't a must.

Good, not great, pass rush is important. Secondary that forces turnovers and doesn't give up big plays is important. Stopping the run is important.

If you're weak in any one of those areas and great in the others, you'll get exposed.

See 2014 Ravens defense.

[usmccharles]

Overreaction.

You know what's a must? A well rounded defense that has no huge weaknesses. Just because the two teams going to the SB have great pass rushes THIS YEAR doesn't mean it's a must. Last season it certainly wasn't a must.

Good, not great, pass rush is important. Secondary that forces turnovers and doesn't give up big plays is important. Stopping the run is important.

If you're weak in any one of those areas and great in the others, you'll get exposed.

See 2014 Ravens defense.

This.  We dont need a Von Miller, clearly it would be nice but we dont HAVE to have one to be successful on defense.  I view it the same way as our offense when we won the SB: we didnt have an elite player at any position, but we had a very well rounded group of talent that fit together very well.  Suggs, Doom, Jimmy, Webb, ZDS, the front line, our draft pick which most think it will be defense, i think will be just fine.  I really think Jimmy is going to be back to a good corner, i wont say hes going to be a top shutdown corner but i think he will get the job done and make some plays. 

[January J]

It's not just the pass rush, its the secondary as well which we need badly. Denver's secondary is #1 in the league and went a streak of like 5 games in which they had a pick 6, I'm sure Tom Brady thought of that every time he took a snap, it changed what their offense revolves around which is short passes and dink-and-dunks, it forced them to change their entire offense. Carolina pretty much leads the league in turnovers, in forces a QB to take more time in the pocket and of course, forces more sacks. Those teams are also allowed to blitz more because of their secondary.

In our case, we had a great pass rush in 2014, got to the Divisional round, and got dotted up by Brady. Why? Our secondary was awful. It doesn't matter if we have a great pass rush or not if our secondary is abysmal, I personally like more pass rush, but I don't want to go overboard and forget our secondary.

We need passrushers and the ability to stop quick throws. A good passrush doesn't help as much if a QB can kill us with throwing a ton of quick slants and screens. Carolina's passrush is so good because their LBs are incredibly athletic and can stop those quick passes to the inside.

exactly. Pass rush is great, and we definitely need it, but if you don't have linebackers that can cover.. teams like New England that have quarterbacks with a quick release will dink and dunk their way down the field all day long. You have to disrupt their short and intermediate routes so they go to their second read and our pass rushers have time to get to them, teams had us figured out this year...they would just kill us with the short passes over the middle..and then soon as we brought everybody up to try and contain it..they would burn us deep with the home run. And it worked every time bc our safety's weren't disciplined. That's why teams like Carolina and Denver are so great..not only do they have a good pass rush, they have a strong secondary and LB corps that is Disciplined. When you the linebackers that can actually cover the short routes , more sacks will be made, and quarterbacks will be forced into bad decisions. This is exactly why I wouldn't be opposed to taking a guy like Myles jack at 6. Him and Mosley would be a phenomenal duo. May be a slight reach but so be it. Edited January 25, 2016 by January J

[Cillmatic]

We need a team.

[usmccharles]

exactly. Pass rush is great, and we definitely need it, but if you don't have linebackers that can cover.. teams like New England that have quarterbacks with a quick release will dink and dunk their way down the field all day long. You have to disrupt their short and intermediate routes so they go to their second read and our pass rushers have time to get to them, teams had us figured out this year...they would just kill us with the short passes over the middle..and then soon as we brought everybody up to try and contain it..they would burn us deep with the home run. And it worked every time bc our safety's weren't disciplined. That's why teams like Carolina and Denver are so great..not only do they have a good pass rush, they have a strong secondary and LB corps that is Disciplined. When you the linebackers that can actually cover the short routes , more sacks will be made, and quarterbacks will be forced into bad decisions. This is exactly why I wouldn't be opposed to taking a guy like Myles jack at 6. Him and Mosley would be a phenomenal duo. May be a slight reach but so be it.

This is my argument for taking Jack in my mock draft. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by usmccharles

[January J]

This is my argument for taking Jack in my mock draft.

yeah I've definitely come around to him being our pick even at 6..I was high on him a while back but never even considered him as a top ten prospect , but I'm starting to think he could be the steal of the draft. Props on the mock- you called it before alot of ppl did. Doesn't mean we will go that way obviously but I think it would be a wise choice, esp considering the state of our defense. If we could trade back and get him I'd be ecstatic. I think my dream draft at this point would be trading back to 15 for both of their seconds...take Myles jack. Trade back into the first for spence. Then take fuller/Apple or boyd/Coleman. But If spence was gone we could just stand pat with all 3 2nd round picks and take fuller, Boyd and yannick. Just imagine knocking out ILB, CB, WR, and pass rusher ALL before round 3!? Ozzie could just drop the Mic and walk off the stage. Ofcourse it takes two teams to trade and Might be a little farfetched but it could happen. Edited January 25, 2016 by January J

[usmccharles]

yeah I've definitely come around to him being our pick even at 6..I was high on him a while back but never even considered him as a top ten prospect , but I'm starting to think he could be the steal of the draft. Props on the mock- you called it before alot of ppl did. Doesn't mean we will go that way obviously but I think it would be a wise choice, esp considering the state of our defense. If we could trade back and get him I'd be ecstatic. I think my dream draft at this point would be trading back to 15 for both of their seconds...take Myles jack. Trade back into the first for spence. Then take fuller/Apple or boyd/Coleman. But If spence was gone we could just stand pat with all 3 2nd round picks and take fuller, Boyd and yannick. Just imagine knocking out ILB, CB, WR, and pass rusher ALL before round 3!? Ozzie could just drop the Mic and walk off the stage. Ofcourse it takes two teams to trade and Might be a little farfetched but it could happen.

thanks, it just makes the most sense to me. After D.Smith retires we will have a huge hole, what better way to fill a need than taking the top guy at the position and setting up the duo for years to come. Mostly can hone his skills better by focusing more up front and then we have our own version of a honeybadger.

I agree with you, I really want us to trade back into the first and hopefully grab a pass rusher. With those two pics, we could literally transform our defense and set it up for the future pretty well. And it's like BP is an extra pick we get this year. I get more excited the more I think about having myles and mosely. I really think our defense will surprise people as long as pees makes adjustments to scheme to his personal rather than using our personnel to scheme (if that made sense)