Myles Jack - LB (merged)

[52520Andrew]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

Because I believe that Jaylon Smith can be an OLB. I brought this up over a month ago (not sure the exact time frame), but reports are he might weigh in at 240+, which would start pushing him into the 3-4 OLB conversation.

You trust him to set the edge? 

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, 52520Andrew said:

You trust him to set the edge? 

If he gets heavier, I do. I think pre-injury that he was the best player in the draft.

[gabefergy]

34 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

You trust him to set the edge? 

I have more concerns about him being a consistent pass-rusher, you know the most important aspect of the 3-4 OLB. It's a minor part of Smith's skill-set, it isn't close to being his strength.

[gabefergy]

1 hour ago, BmoreBird22 said:

Inside linebackers are important, as is every single position, but the inside linebacker is the least important. Sure, Jack could cover tight ends or running backs, but so could Will Hill. He showed that he could effectively line up against the Jimmy Graham's and Antonio Gates' in 2014. He's a much better man cover safety than deep safety, if you ask me. 

Sure, he probably will do better, just like how CJ Mosley has done better, but even CJ Mosley wouldn't be the make or break difference for an elite 3-4 defense the way a Joey Bosa, DeForest Buckner, or Jalen Ramsey could be. 

So, you're telling me you saw a noticeable difference in the defense if Mosley or Daryl Smith subbed out? Probably not, honestly. You probably didn't even notice they did sub out the majority of the time.

Okay, so let's say the Ravens had a NT rated as a 9.0 and a DE as 8.9. Who are you taking? BPA clearly says NT, but oh wait, they already have a great NT, but hey, they can't take need into consideration with BPA. They're likely to get an elite player or one at the very top of their board (considering they will likely exclude quarterbacks) regardless if he's BPA or just an elite prospect. 

I tend to agree that ILB isn't an overly important position in a 3-4 defense, but having great ILBs can be a gamechanger, especially ILBs with the skills that Jack possesses. He's the best LB prospect to come out since Kuechly and he's been a DPOY candidate pretty much from the get go. I completely believe that Jack can have that kind of impact.

Having Hill cover TEs is an option, but that stretches the secondary thinner. That means single high safety and we don't have a good single high safety. 

Jack allows 2 high man while still having a dynamic coverage guy in the middle. If Mosley can improve which he still could, a huge weakness becomes a very big strength. Even if Mosley continues to stink in coverage, having a guy next to him that can take on the majority of coverage responsibilities makes a huge difference.

I think we can all agree that we need an upgrade at ILB next to Mosley. Daryl Smith showed his age last year, and he isn't getting any younger. Whether that answer is Jack or someone else, it needs to happen.

[BmoreBird22]

15 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I tend to agree that ILB isn't an overly important position in a 3-4 defense, but having great ILBs can be a gamechanger, especially ILBs with the skills that Jack possesses. He's the best LB prospect to come out since Kuechly and he's been a DPOY candidate pretty much from the get go. I completely believe that Jack can have that kind of impact.

Having Hill cover TEs is an option, but that stretches the secondary thinner. That means single high safety and we don't have a good single high safety. 

Jack allows 2 high man while still having a dynamic coverage guy in the middle. If Mosley can improve which he still could, a huge weakness becomes a very big strength. Even if Mosley continues to stink in coverage, having a guy next to him that can take on the majority of coverage responsibilities makes a huge difference.

I think we can all agree that we need an upgrade at ILB next to Mosley. Daryl Smith showed his age last year, and he isn't getting any younger. Whether that answer is Jack or someone else, it needs to happen.

I believe he can, too, but I don't think it'll be on the Ravens. If a that runs the Tampa 2 takes him, he's gonna tear it up. He's gonna be another Derrick Brooks. However, I just woulnd't pass up on Bosa, Buckner, or Ramsey for Jack. I think Jack is supremely talented, but I view him as being best in a 4-3.

I'm in a fairly wait and see approach on Webb. Hill was allowed to cover tight ends with Stewart on the backend, who I'd say is not a single high safety at all. I'd say it's gonna be more dependent on the corner play. If Jimmy returns 100% healthy (which he should) and if Wright gets re-signed and plays anywhere near the post 49ers level, I think that'll allow Hill to play more man. 

I'm still very high on Mosley. I don't know about you, but I felt his ability to flow sideline to sideline and cover tight ends/running backs was a huge strength at Alabama. Corners usually take a few years to develop, so I wasn't worried about Mosley taking a little longer to develop in coverage. If he struggled this year, I'd lose hope, but I'm still high on his potential.

I would agree that they need something better than Daryl Smith, however, I don't think that needs to come through pick 6 overall. I think there are more pressing needs that can't easily be filled later, whereas starting linebackers are usually easy to find for the Ravens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Jack is one of the premiere talents in the draft and I think the Jags and Cowboys will have a tough time passing on him, but I'm not sure I like the value for the Ravens.

[Sizzlebshu]

30 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I tend to agree that ILB isn't an overly important position in a 3-4 defense, but having great ILBs can be a gamechanger, especially ILBs with the skills that Jack possesses. He's the best LB prospect to come out since Kuechly and he's been a DPOY candidate pretty much from the get go. I completely believe that Jack can have that kind of impact.

Having Hill cover TEs is an option, but that stretches the secondary thinner. That means single high safety and we don't have a good single high safety. 

Jack allows 2 high man while still having a dynamic coverage guy in the middle. If Mosley can improve which he still could, a huge weakness becomes a very big strength. Even if Mosley continues to stink in coverage, having a guy next to him that can take on the majority of coverage responsibilities makes a huge difference.

I think we can all agree that we need an upgrade at ILB next to Mosley. Daryl Smith showed his age last year, and he isn't getting any younger. Whether that answer is Jack or someone else, it needs to happen.

See I kinda disagree with some of this

Jack reminds me more of Anthony Barr (no UCLA thing intended), in that he is a fantastic athlete and okay football player that can develop into a great player. 

Keuchley was not only a phenomenal athlete, but a fantastic football player. Unlike Jack, there was really nothing to nitpick with his game or tape imho. 

Jack's strengths are obvious, but he does have weaknesses that have caused linebackers to drop. Eric Kendricks (again see Barr. No UCLA intended) was a first rounder to me last yr and while he isn't Jack in coverage (no one is) he was exceptional in that area and fell to the 2nd. 

I question Jack's pass rushing ability, ability to sort through traffic (altho I will admit you'd want him at WILB so why would you want to waste the skill set here), and if he is able to disengage from blocks after being engaged (very few examples of this - likely because of positions he was asked to play). 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Sizzlebshu

[Sizzlebshu]

1 hour ago, 52520Andrew said:

You trust him to set the edge? 

Why would he have to? Thats the OLB's job no? He would be there to clean up plays and make plays in the backfield similar to Sean Lee. 

[52520Andrew]

1 minute ago, Sizzlebshu said:

Why would he have to? Thats the OLB's job no? He would be there to clean up plays and make plays in the backfield similar to Sean Lee. 

Looks like someone didn't read the quote I was responding to

[gabefergy]

8 minutes ago, Sizzlebshu said:

See I kinda disagree with some of this

Jack reminds me more of Anthony Barr (no UCLA thing intended), in that he is a fantastic athlete and okay football player that can develop into a great player. 

Keuchley was not only a phenomenal athlete, but a fantastic football player. Unlike Jack, there was really nothing to nitpick with his game or tape imho. 

Jack's strengths are obvious, but he does have weaknesses that have caused linebackers to drop. Eric Kendricks (again see Barr. No UCLA intended) was a first rounder to me last yr and while he isn't Jack in coverage (no one is) he was exceptional in that area and fell to the 2nd. 

I question Jack's pass rushing ability, ability to sort through traffic (altho I will admit you'd want him at WILB so why would you want to waste the skill set here), and if he is able to disengage from blocks after being engaged (very few examples of this - likely because of positions he was asked to play). 

 

 

I think Jack's ability in coverage as a LB is an extremely unique skill-set. I don't recall ever seeing a LB be able to cover in man how he can. In part that is due to his athleticism, but he's not just an athlete. He has great instincts and he makes a ton of plays all over the field because of it. Kendricks isn't close to his level of athleticism which is probably the main reason he dropped.

In the Ravens scheme, they keep the ILBs pretty clean, and the weakside LB in particular is free to attack gaps because the DT plays over the weakside OG with the OLB/Leo playing the OT.

[gabefergy]

19 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I believe he can, too, but I don't think it'll be on the Ravens. If a that runs the Tampa 2 takes him, he's gonna tear it up. He's gonna be another Derrick Brooks. However, I just woulnd't pass up on Bosa, Buckner, or Ramsey for Jack. I think Jack is supremely talented, but I view him as being best in a 4-3.

I'm in a fairly wait and see approach on Webb. Hill was allowed to cover tight ends with Stewart on the backend, who I'd say is not a single high safety at all. I'd say it's gonna be more dependent on the corner play. If Jimmy returns 100% healthy (which he should) and if Wright gets re-signed and plays anywhere near the post 49ers level, I think that'll allow Hill to play more man. 

I'm still very high on Mosley. I don't know about you, but I felt his ability to flow sideline to sideline and cover tight ends/running backs was a huge strength at Alabama. Corners usually take a few years to develop, so I wasn't worried about Mosley taking a little longer to develop in coverage. If he struggled this year, I'd lose hope, but I'm still high on his potential.

I would agree that they need something better than Daryl Smith, however, I don't think that needs to come through pick 6 overall. I think there are more pressing needs that can't easily be filled later, whereas starting linebackers are usually easy to find for the Ravens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Jack is one of the premiere talents in the draft and I think the Jags and Cowboys will have a tough time passing on him, but I'm not sure I like the value for the Ravens.

Don't get me wrong, I would take Ramsey or Bosa over Jack for sure. I think Buckner would be the more interesting question. I'd lean towards Jack because I think he helps the team more on passing downs. A predominantly Tampa 2 scheme is frankly wasting Jack's ability imo. He's better served in a defense that uses their LBs in man coverage.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, gabefergy said:

Don't get me wrong, I would take Ramsey or Bosa over Jack for sure. I think Buckner would be the more interesting question. I'd lean towards Jack because I think he helps the team more on passing downs. A predominantly Tampa 2 scheme is frankly wasting Jack's ability imo. He's better served in a defense that uses their LBs in man coverage.

I could see another Kuechly in a Tampa 2. You're right in that he can definitely cover man to man, but he's got instincts in coverage and he can really cover ground. He'd be a real terror roaming the middle.

[Sizzlebshu]

2 hours ago, gabefergy said:

I think Jack's ability in coverage as a LB is an extremely unique skill-set. I don't recall ever seeing a LB be able to cover in man how he can. In part that is due to his athleticism, but he's not just an athlete. He has great instincts and he makes a ton of plays all over the field because of it. Kendricks isn't close to his level of athleticism which is probably the main reason he dropped.

In the Ravens scheme, they keep the ILBs pretty clean, and the weakside LB in particular is free to attack gaps because the DT plays over the weakside OG with the OLB/Leo playing the OT.

Well like I said I don't disagree with Jack's natural talent nor his would be position and the requirements of that position. 

Also like I said, I acknowledge Kendricks isn't the athlete Jack is ( I think i said cover guy but w/e). However, they are roughly the same skill set. Jack is just a freak athlete when it comes down to it. This skill set (on its own) was not valued as it should have been by 32 franchises. I really don't see that much difference in the skill set of Kendricks vs Jack. Jack is a supremely rare athlete that can excel in coverage but Kendricks is far from a slouch in that area and is also athletic (just not to the degree Jack is). Seriously Jack is a once in a decade athlete at the position. Keuchley probably isn't on a comparable level of athleticism. Not being as athletic as Jack shouldn't be a knock on Kendricks or reason why he dropped and its definitely not an indicator of Kendricks ability in coverage. So Jack gets a bump for the athleticism, but you still wonder how much that athleticism bumps him up. 

Basically what I am trying to say here is that while Jack is a rare athlete who can excel in coverage, how much is that actually worth to franchises? We saw with Kendricks it wasn't much and almost every franchise missed. Obv teams running a 43 scheme value that highly given thats the linebackers role and those responsibilities do no require him to be a great pass rusher or to sift through piles. 

For a comp

Eric Kendrick combine: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/eric-kendricks?id=2552312

 

Keuchley's combine: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/luke-kuechly?id=2533056

 

Pretty similar except for strength and obviously the tape. Obv Keuchley is taller and a little heavier, but the point still stands. 

 

For fun here is Mychael Kendricks who is probably more athletic than either of them 

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/mychal-kendricks?id=2532890

 

For some reason, the NFL doesn't value solely coverage linebackers extremely high unless they run a 4-3. If I had to guess why, it's probably due to the fact that they'd rather address it via scheme with slot corners and nickel and dime packages (probably easier and more effective).

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Sizzlebshu

[ALPHA]

Jack and Smith suit how the game has changed, how many linebackers can actually cover? not many when you see how them getting abused on a weekly basis. 

[PurpleCity5]

4 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I feel like he's a very talented player and he could be a great linebacker for a team, but I don't see it being Baltimore. I think Jaylon Smith might be my number one pick for the Ravens, honestly, if he can play at any point during the regular season. If not, then it's Mackensie Alexander for me.

I do think Jack is very talented but he's just an ILB here. I agree with what you said on Smith, this guy works hard. I really think he has the best work ethic in this entire draft. I mean, this guy is out of a walking boot six weeks after his bowl game injury, that's crazy. It gives me more confidence that he'll be able to make that jump. 
 

Personally, I think our board could be set-up with 

1. Tunsil

2. Ramsey

3. Bosa

4. Smith

5. Buckner

6. Jack 

[RavensFanMania]

On 2/17/2016 at 10:26 PM, CalvinSmoke said:

If we where able to grab him I'd be so freaking happy. I pray he bombs his limited combine so we can nab him in the 2nd.

Yeah, he could end up being the best player from this draft class.   There are a lot of players I'd be happy with, which is why I don't have a problem with the Ravens drafting 6th.  One of my guys is going to end up in our lap.

[RavensFanMania]

On 2/17/2016 at 0:52 PM, January J said:

I would have no issue with takin jack In the first. Would be nice to trade back and grab him but either way. It also doesnt Really bother me that he wont Be participatin In the combine. 

If we want Jack and trade back, we won't be able to draft him.  He's a top 5 guy. 

On 2/17/2016 at 6:37 PM, Jacquouille said:

I don't think we could grab Myles Jack with a trade back, honestly. Miami seems like a team that would take him without hesitation.

 

[gabefergy]

49 minutes ago, Sizzlebshu said:

Well like I said I don't disagree with Jack's natural talent nor his would be position and the requirements of that position. 

Also like I said, I acknowledge Kendricks isn't the athlete Jack is ( I think i said cover guy but w/e). However, they are roughly the same skill set. Jack is just a freak athlete when it comes down to it. This skill set (on its own) was not valued as it should have been by 32 franchises. I really don't see that much difference in the skill set of Kendricks vs Jack. Jack is a supremely rare athlete that can excel in coverage but Kendricks is far from a slouch in that area and is also athletic (just not to the degree Jack is). Seriously Jack is a once in a decade athlete at the position. Keuchley probably isn't on a comparable level of athleticism. Not being as athletic as Jack shouldn't be a knock on Kendricks or reason why he dropped and its definitely not an indicator of Kendricks ability in coverage. So Jack gets a bump for the athleticism, but you still wonder how much that athleticism bumps him up. 

Basically what I am trying to say here is that while Jack is a rare athlete who can excel in coverage, how much is that actually worth to franchises? We saw with Kendricks it wasn't much and almost every franchise missed. Obv teams running a 43 scheme value that highly given thats the linebackers role and those responsibilities do no require him to be a great pass rusher or to sift through piles. 

For a comp

Eric Kendrick combine: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/eric-kendricks?id=2552312

 

Keuchley's combine: http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/luke-kuechly?id=2533056

 

Pretty similar except for strength and obviously the tape. Obv Keuchley is taller and a little heavier, but the point still stands. 

 

For fun here is Mychael Kendricks who is probably more athletic than either of them 

 

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/mychal-kendricks?id=2532890

 

For some reason, the NFL doesn't value solely coverage linebackers extremely high unless they run a 4-3. If I had to guess why, it's probably due to the fact that they'd rather address it via scheme with slot corners and nickel and dime packages (probably easier and more effective).

 

Kuechly is an elite athlete for the ILB position http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/164/

Kendricks, not so much. http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/4925/

Kendricks also didn't run the shuttles or 3C, but based off his 10yd split, it's probably not great. He has good coverage instincts, but the speed, quickness and fluidity isn't there.

Neither are close to what Jack is in terms of coverage ability. He's played 100+ of snaps as a slot CB and covered everyone he's seen exceptionally well. That's unique and despite what you are trying to suggest, Jack is far from "just a coverage LB". He's physical in the run game and has better range as a tackler than pretty much anyone at the position.

[RaineV1]

Jack reminds me of Deone Bucannon of the Cardinals. A guy who technically plays linebacker, but is really just a big safety that covers the middle of the field. So far switching out one of their ILBs for what's essentially a safety has really payed off for them. And I think Jack can actually be better than Bucannon.

[JoeyFlex5]

Kendricks and kuechly are good coverage linebackers, Jack is a DB in the front seven. They are different breeds, I don't think you can compare Jack's coverage skills with any linebacker, that conversation should start by comparing his coverage skills to the best nickel backs in the league, then his skills as a real LB at the next level are yet to be seen but id predict he is in the 2nd tier with the mosleys and Sean Lee's at the least

Edited February 26, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Sizzlebshu]

1 hour ago, gabefergy said:

Kuechly is an elite athlete for the ILB position http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/164/

Kendricks, not so much. http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/4925/

Kendricks also didn't run the shuttles or 3C, but based off his 10yd split, it's probably not great. He has good coverage instincts, but the speed, quickness and fluidity isn't there.

Neither are close to what Jack is in terms of coverage ability. He's played 100+ of snaps as a slot CB and covered everyone he's seen exceptionally well. That's unique and despite what you are trying to suggest, Jack is far from "just a coverage LB". He's physical in the run game and has better range as a tackler than pretty much anyone at the position.

For kendricks, watch his tape from college. He is pretty damn good coverage 

You can't grade him on what he didn't do. If that's the case, then I can say none of Jack's measurements will matter since they wont be graded on the same field as the combine participants (not electrically timed)

Im not suggesting he is just a coverage linebacker. I am suggesting that the thing that makes him valuable is his coverage ability an idk how much teams value that based on other linebackers with above average to very good coverage ability have faired. Jack is special, but idk if the nfl values that enough given past experience with athletic linebackers who excelled in coverage (see mychael kendricks)

Edited February 26, 2016 by Sizzlebshu

[ravefan52]

On February 17, 2016 at 10:47 AM, GrimCoconut said:

The point is if it didn't affect Gurley then I hardly see how it affects Jack, who suffered a less severe injury and suffered it earlier at that.

Just playing devils advocate here, but it only takes one team to take a chance on a guy. It's possible the Rams were that one team and others after pick 10 weren't comfortable with the injury. Again, I don't think thats the case, but it could be.

[ellicottraven]

Just heard on NFL Network combine coverage that Myles Jack is the alpha amongst alphas out there. He is the leader that everyone seems to gravitate towards. After that, I want him to be a Raven in the 1st.

[January J]

16 hours ago, RavensFanMania said:

If we want Jack and trade back, we won't be able to draft him.  He's a top 5 guy. 

 

If we just swap with san Fran he will be. Kaepernicks requesting a trade.

[trevorsteadman]

In my opinion with the desperate teams on top of this draft and Jack possibly being the most athletically gifted guy in this class I don't see him dropping past 5. I could be wrong and I hope he does for our sake... But I see a high rise and people will be surprised he is taken early. People are looking for those fast versatile players that can take their team to the next level right away even if it is not the safest pick or best fit. Everyone looks and they see versatile guys like Bucannon, Mathieu, Gronkowski I can go on... If one guy can fill multiple roles in multiple formations then he is a pick. This is why I also see Ramsey going before us... But if I am correct at least someone should fall such as Bosa or somebody else projected higher. In the end we may get those guys I am not a fortune teller I just see desperate teams. 

[ellicottraven]

38 minutes ago, January J said:

If we just swap with san Fran he will be. Kaepernicks requesting a trade.

Agreed. And SF may be inclined to trade if one of two QBs are still on the board when we are picking. They would love to subvert a trade with us by another team.

[gabefergy]

16 hours ago, Sizzlebshu said:

For kendricks, watch his tape from college. He is pretty damn good coverage 

You can't grade him on what he didn't do. If that's the case, then I can say none of Jack's measurements will matter since they wont be graded on the same field as the combine participants (not electrically timed)

Im not suggesting he is just a coverage linebacker. I am suggesting that the thing that makes him valuable is his coverage ability an idk how much teams value that based on other linebackers with above average to very good coverage ability have faired. Jack is special, but idk if the nfl values that enough given past experience with athletic linebackers who excelled in coverage (see mychael kendricks)

I went to UCLA so trust me, I'm well aware that Kendricks was good in coverage. I'm just pointing out that limited athleticism will drop a LB because even if his instincts and skills are really good at the college level, he will be facing much bigger and faster competition. 

FWIW, the older Kendricks is super athletic, but he has struggled throughout his career in coverage. Athleticism =/= good in coverage. It's those special players that possess both the skill and the athleticism like Jack.

[gabefergy]

Jack's measurables: 6'1/245 lbs. 33 5/8" arms. 10 1/4" hands.

Can we just draft him already?

[gabefergy]

On the other hand we have Jaylon Smith: 6'2/223 lbs. 33" arms. 9 1/2" hands.

Let's just let that sink in. Maybe a couple poster on here want to re-evaluate some things?

[GrimCoconut]

6 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

Jack's measurables: 6'1/245 lbs. 33 5/8" arms. 10 1/4" hands.

Can we just draft him already?

Those are awesome measurements. Hands, arms, height-weight ratio are excellent. 

[dpatrickguy]

Not to make a comparison as a player necessarily, but just for the fun of size comparisons: Von Miller measured 6'3"/246. 33 1/2" arms. 9 1/4" hands.