[News] Eisenberg: Fact & Opinion On Leslie Frazier, Joe Flacco, Playoffs

[EdBallhawkReed20]

One thing to consider with Joe, and yes I do defend him, is almost every game it felt like he was losing a target. He was playing with a different core of guys every week. And even Steve Smith with how many fractured ribs was still starting over healthy younger players. Right there that speaks volumes. You can argue that Schuab, Mallett, and Clausen moved the ball decently with those same depth guys, but they practice with those guys on 2nd and 3rd string teams every day. Just looking at how Aaron Rodgers looked all year without Jordy Nelson alone proves that targets a huge part of an offense. Sure Flacco makes mistakes, but I don't think it has been enough like Kaepernick or several of the other quarterbacks in the NFL to get benched. If he can get 11 touchdowns and zero interceptions with AnQuan Boldin, Torrey Smith, and Jacoby Jones, all of which are now 2nd or lower on each respective roster, think if we actually got him an AJ Green, Antonio Brown, or another receiver he can rely on. Yes Steve Smith was high in the league in yardage and he played well before going down but after that the offense all bogged down and no one else can get open. Aiken did well in his time in a #1 role but how much did he actually get open before Steve Smith Sr. went down? A 37 year old should not be our #1 target going into next season.

 I disagree with you in some regards and agree with you in certain areas. I would say that Joe Flacco has been and still is being treated like a baby for a majority of his career and its finally starting to show. Hear me out on this... Do you honestly believe Flacco makes the playoffs majority of those seasons without Ray Rice, Ray Lewis, Ed, Reed etc... The only offense we really had was Ray Rice in the ground game. Your statement about Flacco not being able to connect with other receivers makes him seem worse. Who fault is it that Flacco can't connect with other receivers that he is at practice with him everyday. The backups in my mind honestly have better accuracy than Flacco mainly Mallett and Clausen throwing the ball down field. They are just younger and don't have his experience on the field. Schaub like Flacco in my mind was spoiled with having Arian Foster on play action passes. That's why he can't throw without it. Kamar Aiken started playing better when Steve Smith got hurt. Kamar on one hand could've started playing better believing he had to step up, but on the other hand is it possible he just wasn't being targeted very much by Joe Flacco. I believe Flacco locks on to one receiver for majority of the season outside of a burner he occasionally throws down field too when defenses try to shut down his primary. I say draft Laquon Tradwell (that is the guy for Flacco to succeed  moving forward look at his highlights) and stop getting veteran receivers after Smith period. Flacco has to learn to play with young talent and not develop tunnel vision everytime Baltimore brings a veteran receiver. He is not developing because he is not being taken out of his comfort zone he has been since day one with Derrick Mason. If he can't he will never be elite, but a mediocre QB. I feel like not only you, but many other fans are riding Flacco's success over the years but forget key factors. 1. You probably wouldn't be saying these things if those players were still on the team. The records he broke is the equivalent of Maxx Williams with the tightened record. Not impressive considering your breaking records for a franchise that is 19 years old. Max is a little bit more impressive considering the TE we have had in the past if he continues but Flacco look at the QB's that came before him. Some of you make it seem like Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, etc was our QB before him. The others QB's total had 11 compared to Flacco who has had 8 years. Flacco should have broke nearly every record if you look at it realistically.  If Flacco doesn't improve next year. I say give Mallett a shot because he has proven he doesn't need veterans (Steelers game). I have nothing against Flacco, but I believe in having the best player on the field. He may not be it.

[rmcjacket23]

I disagree with you in some regards and agree with you in certain areas. I would say that Joe Flacco has been and still is being treated like a baby for a majority of his career and its finally starting to show. Hear me out on this... Do you honestly believe Flacco makes the playoffs majority of those seasons without Ray Rice, Ray Lewis, Ed, Reed etc... The only offense we really had was Ray Rice in the ground game. Your statement about Flacco not being able to connect with other receivers makes him seem worse. Who fault is it that Flacco can't connect with other receivers that he is at practice with him everyday. The backups in my mind honestly have better accuracy than Flacco mainly Mallett and Clausen throwing the ball down field. They are just younger and don't have his experience on the field. Schaub like Flacco in my mind was spoiled with having Arian Foster on play action passes. That's why he can't throw without it. Kamar Aiken started playing better when Steve Smith got hurt. Kamar on one hand could've started playing better believing he had to step up, but on the other hand is it possible he just wasn't being targeted very much by Joe Flacco. I believe Flacco locks on to one receiver for majority of the season outside of a burner he occasionally throws down field too when defenses try to shut down his primary. I say draft Laquon Tradwell (that is the guy for Flacco to succeed moving forward look at his highlights) and stop getting veteran receivers after Smith period. Flacco has to learn to play with young talent and not develop tunnel vision everytime Baltimore brings a veteran receiver. He is not developing because he is not being taken out of his comfort zone he has been since day one with Derrick Mason. If he can't he will never be elite, but a mediocre QB. I feel like not only you, but many other fans are riding Flacco's success over the years but forget key factors. 1. You probably wouldn't be saying these things if those players were still on the team. The records he broke is the equivalent of Maxx Williams with the tightened record. Not impressive considering your breaking records for a franchise that is 19 years old. Max is a little bit more impressive considering the TE we have had in the past if he continues but Flacco look at the QB's that came before him. Some of you make it seem like Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Brett Favre, etc was our QB before him. The others QB's total had 11 compared to Flacco who has had 8 years. Flacco should have broke nearly every record if you look at it realistically. If Flacco doesn't improve next year. I say give Mallett a shot because he has proven he doesn't need veterans (Steelers game). I have nothing against Flacco, but I believe in having the best player on the field. He may not be it.

So if you play well without veterans for one game, you've proven you're a starting caliber QB in this league?

Why no reference to the Cincinnati game? Why no reference to any of the games he played in Houston?

Do none of those matter all of the sudden?

I have a sneaky suspicion that numerous NFL teams don't share your sentiments regarding their accuracy. If they did, something tells me that Clausen would be starting over easily one of the less accurate QBs in the league, Jay Cutler, and that Mallett wouldn't be on his third team, particularly when his last team hasn't had QB stability in years.

The NFL generally does an exceptional job of telling fans who is good and who is not. All you have to do is follow their actions.

In short, Malletts going to have to give a Steelers game like performance at a dozen or more times before he's worth to stand next to Joe in the huddle, because Joe's got dozens of games just like that (and in bigger spots) on his resume. Mallett simply hasn't done nearly enough to earn that.

Edited January 20, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[EdBallhawkReed20]

So if you play well without veterans for one game, you've proven you're a starting caliber QB in this league?

Why no reference to the Cincinnati game? Why no reference to any of the games he played in Houston?

Do none of those matter all of the sudden?

I have a sneaky suspicion that numerous NFL teams don't share your sentiments regarding their accuracy. If they did, something tells me that Clausen would be starting over easily one of the less accurate QBs in the league, Jay Cutler, and that Mallett wouldn't be on his third team, particularly when his last team hasn't had QB stability in years.

The NFL generally does an exceptional job of telling fans who is good and who is not. All you have to do is follow their actions.

In short, Malletts going to have to give a Steelers game like performance at a dozen or more times before he's worth to stand next to Joe in the huddle, because Joe's got dozens of games just like that (and in bigger spots) on his resume. Mallett simply hasn't done nearly enough to earn that.

Let me answers these questions in the order received...

1. I'm not saying that your an all star caliber QB if you don't play with veterans, but I am saying Mallett may have more potential than our current QB Joe Flacco. For instance, I thought Ray Rice should have started over Willis McGahee for years considering the amount of yards he gained when given a chance and all McGahee did was clean up at the end of drives getting TD's that in all honesty belong to Ray Rice. I am just looking at the potential each player has and assessing based on what I see.

2. Mallett almost won that game in Cincinnati and in all honesty didn't look bad. Especially for a player who was only on the team for 19 days... As far as him in Houston I don't know and never followed him before he came to Baltimore. In any case he has played extremely well since he got here hitting multiple receivers in both games. Thats more than I can say for Flacco who has one receiver with more catches than the entire WR core combined!

3. No none of what Mallett did before he got here matters. if what you did yesterday mattered Jacoby Jones would still be on the team... He had his shot as a wide receiver and cracked under the pressure of being a starter and lost confidence his final year after being hit by a rookie safety who happens to play for our team(he never was the same player). Now he has lost his confidence returning punts even when there is no chance of returning or making it beyond the twenty yard line. The name of the game is what have you done for me lately. I felt that Brandon Williams would be as big a star as he is and I have not heard one Raven fan push for Haloti Ngata. We have younger talent and are capable of making the move of letting him go.

4.Mallett is not going to get the chance to play to give you those performances for a while unless Flacco is hurt again or at the start of the season, so essentially that isn't even fair. I see that Mallett is hitting multiple receivers in both games. A lot of fans are making the excuse Flacco never got to play with some of the receivers Mallett was throwing to, but Flacco has never played well withering multiple receivers outside of playoffs where he has the highest QB rating of any QB. 

 

My problem is people treating Flacco like he is playing at the level he did when we won the Super Bowl. Clearly, he is not... You ignore all the things I say about Flacco and his gameplay. There are QB's playing through injuries that made the playoffs this year. That's not an acceptable excuse that he can't win with the players put around him all the time. That's like Justin Forsett saying I can't run the ball if its not behind Marshall Yanda or Kelechi Osemele. Elite QB's find ways to win games! If you want to help Flacco to another ring get Laquon Treadwell. Looking at his highlights he is going to be great no matter where he goes. You need that type of receiver to catch the passes like Anquain did in crucial situations aside from ensuring Steve Smith doesn't getting hurt by being over used majority of the game. That should be the No. 6 pick hands down if still on the board. Everything else Ozzie has proven can be gained over the draft. 

 

Answer these questions in regards to Joe Flacco...

1.Why did the Baltimore Ravens lead the league in defensive pass interference penalty yardage the last year of Torrey Smith's contract?

2.Do you honestly feel Joe Flacco has those six playoffs seasons without Ray Rice bailing him out on check downs (Plus the outstanding future hall of famers he had on defense)?

3.Do you think without Anquain Boldin catching those 3rd down jump ball throws by the QB you praise so highly we win the Super Bowl?

4. What player actually has great chemistry with Joe Flacco within his eight year career on this team outside of Dennis Pitta (I can explain why he has that if you like Ray Rice is a running back and he made his own career. Torrey don't count clearly because he got traded. If he was that valuable we would have kept him)?  

5. Did you ever take into account Flacco may have played better at first when Torrey Smith got here because we did not have a speedy receiver and other teams had to adapt to Baltimore being able to stretch the field more (Which nobody did by the way. Thats why we dominated the Steelers after Torrey came to the team and went to the Super bowl shortly after. People are adapting now especially after we won the SB. Matter of fact the year before Torrey got here we lost to the Steelers three times that year.)?

[Ravensfansince03]

Wouldn't it be clever if.. the NFL added a new Head Referee position.. with the head referee always being in the box with the announcers, and having to watch the same screen and chat with the announcers. This referee wouldn't be forced to confirm or overturn a call made on the field by the "On the field refs", but does have the power to overturn a call/play at his or her own will based on evidence that we all see.

Seems like the only way to fix this poor officiating problem we have.

[Halshayeji]

Joes gonna love what he sees when he plays with the new K Aiken. Ravens most improved player!

[Minionhunter]

Mallet can be a streaky good qb his production comes in streaks. There was a very good reason he wasn't a first round pick when his arm and talent level all suggested he should be. Million Dollar arm, 50 cent head. Hopefully he is turning it around, I always route for people to overcome personal issues, but whoever said he will have to give a dozen steelers game performances to get there is right on. Plus I have a feeling that the steelers completely underestimated is that game and we just flat out beat their game plan and they couldn't adapt in game because their new guy does not have lebeau's experience. Also did you not observe mallet melting down during the Bengals game, it was getting ugly and he was showing up his receivers in the game, that is bad form and a way to loose your team mates. He learned that bad habit from Brady.

[rmcjacket23]

Let me answers these questions in the order received...

1. I'm not saying that your an all star caliber QB if you don't play with veterans, but I am saying Mallett may have more potential than our current QB Joe Flacco. For instance, I thought Ray Rice should have started over Willis McGahee for years considering the amount of yards he gained when given a chance and all McGahee did was clean up at the end of drives getting TD's that in all honesty belong to Ray Rice. I am just looking at the potential each player has and assessing based on what I see.

2. Mallett almost won that game in Cincinnati and in all honesty didn't look bad. Especially for a player who was only on the team for 19 days... As far as him in Houston I don't know and never followed him before he came to Baltimore. In any case he has played extremely well since he got here hitting multiple receivers in both games. Thats more than I can say for Flacco who has one receiver with more catches than the entire WR core combined!

3. No none of what Mallett did before he got here matters. if what you did yesterday mattered Jacoby Jones would still be on the team... He had his shot as a wide receiver and cracked under the pressure of being a starter and lost confidence his final year after being hit by a rookie safety who happens to play for our team(he never was the same player). Now he has lost his confidence returning punts even when there is no chance of returning or making it beyond the twenty yard line. The name of the game is what have you done for me lately. I felt that Brandon Williams would be as big a star as he is and I have not heard one Raven fan push for Haloti Ngata. We have younger talent and are capable of making the move of letting him go.

4.Mallett is not going to get the chance to play to give you those performances for a while unless Flacco is hurt again or at the start of the season, so essentially that isn't even fair. I see that Mallett is hitting multiple receivers in both games. A lot of fans are making the excuse Flacco never got to play with some of the receivers Mallett was throwing to, but Flacco has never played well withering multiple receivers outside of playoffs where he has the highest QB rating of any QB. 

 

My problem is people treating Flacco like he is playing at the level he did when we won the Super Bowl. Clearly, he is not... You ignore all the things I say about Flacco and his gameplay. There are QB's playing through injuries that made the playoffs this year. That's not an acceptable excuse that he can't win with the players put around him all the time. That's like Justin Forsett saying I can't run the ball if its not behind Marshall Yanda or Kelechi Osemele. Elite QB's find ways to win games! If you want to help Flacco to another ring get Laquon Treadwell. Looking at his highlights he is going to be great no matter where he goes. You need that type of receiver to catch the passes like Anquain did in crucial situations aside from ensuring Steve Smith doesn't getting hurt by being over used majority of the game. That should be the No. 6 pick hands down if still on the board. Everything else Ozzie has proven can be gained over the draft. 

 

Answer these questions in regards to Joe Flacco...

1.Why did the Baltimore Ravens lead the league in defensive pass interference penalty yardage the last year of Torrey Smith's contract?

2.Do you honestly feel Joe Flacco has those six playoffs seasons without Ray Rice bailing him out on check downs (Plus the outstanding future hall of famers he had on defense)?

3.Do you think without Anquain Boldin catching those 3rd down jump ball throws by the QB you praise so highly we win the Super Bowl?

4. What player actually has great chemistry with Joe Flacco within his eight year career on this team outside of Dennis Pitta (I can explain why he has that if you like Ray Rice is a running back and he made his own career. Torrey don't count clearly because he got traded. If he was that valuable we would have kept him)?  

5. Did you ever take into account Flacco may have played better at first when Torrey Smith got here because we did not have a speedy receiver and other teams had to adapt to Baltimore being able to stretch the field more (Which nobody did by the way. Thats why we dominated the Steelers after Torrey came to the team and went to the Super bowl shortly after. People are adapting now especially after we won the SB. Matter of fact the year before Torrey got here we lost to the Steelers three times that year.)?

1. Why does this matter? Its not like teams draft WRs so that they can lead the league in pass interference yardage. That's  not a skill set... that's just being inept on defense, which is why you see significant fluctuations in statistics like this. Its like measuring WRs by TD catches... people think because you catch 10 TDs one year that you'll catch 10 TDs every year. Go look at Calvin Johnson's numbers and how large the fluctuations are in statistics like TDs. 

 

2. No, I don't. I don't think any QB in this league can consistently win games and be productive without good players around him. Is Tom Brady impressive when he doesn't have Edelman and Gronk? Go back and watch and tell me what I'm supposed to be impressed by. Aaron Rodgers lost ONE WR this season... Jordy Nelson. How'd that offense to on a week to week basis? If you put a good defense against them, they literally struggled to convert 10 yards.

 

There is not a single QB in NFL history who has ever been productive without quality players around him. Whether that's a RB, WR, OL, defense, etc. It doesn't matter. Teams win SBs and playoff games, not QBs. 

 

3. See #2. Same exact answer.

 

4. He had great chemistry with Boldin, despite the fact that he wasn't here very long. Quite literally dozens examples of this.

 

5. Well, yes, he did play better when Torrey was here. So what does that mean? You mean he plays better when he has better players to play with? O, what a radical concept. You just described 100% of QBs in NFL history. Ever wonder why Brady breaks records when he has Randy Moss to throw to? 

 

I can literally copy and paste your entire post above, and change the words Flacco to Brady, or Rodgers, or any of the other great QBs in this league. When they have better players around them, amazingly, they play better. What a novel concept.

[Bat-mite]

Nice article, Mr. E. I appreciate your insight.

[EdBallhawkReed20]

1. Why does this matter? Its not like teams draft WRs so that they can lead the league in pass interference yardage. That's  not a skill set... that's just being inept on defense, which is why you see significant fluctuations in statistics like this. Its like measuring WRs by TD catches... people think because you catch 10 TDs one year that you'll catch 10 TDs every year. Go look at Calvin Johnson's numbers and how large the fluctuations are in statistics like TDs. 

 

2. No, I don't. I don't think any QB in this league can consistently win games and be productive without good players around him. Is Tom Brady impressive when he doesn't have Edelman and Gronk? Go back and watch and tell me what I'm supposed to be impressed by. Aaron Rodgers lost ONE WR this season... Jordy Nelson. How'd that offense to on a week to week basis? If you put a good defense against them, they literally struggled to convert 10 yards.

 

There is not a single QB in NFL history who has ever been productive without quality players around him. Whether that's a RB, WR, OL, defense, etc. It doesn't matter. Teams win SBs and playoff games, not QBs. 

 

3. See #2. Same exact answer.

 

4. He had great chemistry with Boldin, despite the fact that he wasn't here very long. Quite literally dozens examples of this.

 

5. Well, yes, he did play better when Torrey was here. So what does that mean? You mean he plays better when he has better players to play with? O, what a radical concept. You just described 100% of QBs in NFL history. Ever wonder why Brady breaks records when he has Randy Moss to throw to? 

 

I can literally copy and paste your entire post above, and change the words Flacco to Brady, or Rodgers, or any of the other great QBs in this league. When they have better players around them, amazingly, they play better. What a novel concept.

1. It matters can't hit receivers in stride deep down the field. At least not in stride anyway. He hasn't in a long time. Torrey would have had more TD if not more yards his last season. It does matter because production influences the players you keep and the players you let go.

2. Tom Brady has given up a number of players Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Aaron Hernandez, etc... Everybody knows Brady can virtually play with almost anybody. Aaron Rodgers is not crying about not having Greg Jennings. Besides Flacco lost Steve Smith which in this case is Jordy Nelson would be an equivalent. Joes throws this season mainly went to Steve Smith so I feel this is a valid argument Aaron Still won games, plus went to the playoffs. Thats more than I can say for Flacco if you want to make that comparison.

3. I'm hinting to Boldin making Flacco seem better than he actually is as a QB! Before Boldin it was Ray Rice on check downs and Derrick Mason.

4. Boldin didn't really get open and gain separation. He just out jumped defenders for the ball. That isn't chemistry when you are not able to hit receivers down the field with ball. That is more convenience. Analysts even said Flacco throwing to Boldin worked out considering Boldin wasn't fast enough to out run receivers. Flacco lack of accuracy throwing in stride didn't matter as it did with other receivers outside of Boldin (that relationship just worked out) making plays. Anyway I mean that we actually drafted and the fact that you didn't name any, but another veteran receiver proves what i am saying about Joe Flacco to be true. He has never played well with any of the Ravens receivers in 8 years that we drafted! That is a problem...

5. I am saying this... Be a great QB simply because you make plays not just when the dynamics change. Its hinting to what I said earlier in #2. Ravens never had a speedy receiver dynamic changed on offense and all of a sudden the Ravens  offense played better. Tom Brady no longer has Randy Moss and does not need that caliber of player to make it to the post season. Rodgers with Greg Jennings. They continue to make plays. They don't need a speedy receiver (really any particular type) and work with the talent around them and make plays to win games.  Flacco is not that talented and needs all those pieces just for him to make a run. Whoever the veteran receiver specifically gets the bulk of his passes. He does that every year and never really spreads the ball around to his receivers. This year the NFL finally shined light on it. I don't get how other people can't see that.

[rmcjacket23]

1. It matters can't hit receivers in stride deep down the field. At least not in stride anyway. He hasn't in a long time. Torrey would have had more TD if not more yards his last season. It does matter because production influences the players you keep and the players you let go.

2. Tom Brady has given up a number of players Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Aaron Hernandez, etc... Everybody knows Brady can virtually play with almost anybody. Aaron Rodgers is not crying about not having Greg Jennings. Besides Flacco lost Steve Smith which in this case is Jordy Nelson would be an equivalent. Joes throws this season mainly went to Steve Smith so I feel this is a valid argument Aaron Still won games, plus went to the playoffs. Thats more than I can say for Flacco if you want to make that comparison.

3. I'm hinting to Boldin making Flacco seem better than he actually is as a QB! Before Boldin it was Ray Rice on check downs and Derrick Mason.

4. Boldin didn't really get open and gain separation. He just out jumped defenders for the ball. That isn't chemistry when you are not able to hit receivers down the field with ball. That is more convenience. Analysts even said Flacco throwing to Boldin worked out considering Boldin wasn't fast enough to out run receivers. Flacco lack of accuracy throwing in stride didn't matter as it did with other receivers outside of Boldin (that relationship just worked out) making plays. Anyway I mean that we actually drafted and the fact that you didn't name any, but another veteran receiver proves what i am saying about Joe Flacco to be true. He has never played well with any of the Ravens receivers in 8 years that we drafted! That is a problem...

5. I am saying this... Be a great QB simply because you make plays not just when the dynamics change. Its hinting to what I said earlier in #2. Ravens never had a speedy receiver dynamic changed on offense and all of a sudden the Ravens offense played better. Tom Brady no longer has Randy Moss and does not need that caliber of player to make it to the post season. Rodgers with Greg Jennings. They continue to make plays. They don't need a speedy receiver (really any particular type) and work with the talent around them and make plays to win games. Flacco is not that talented and needs all those pieces just for him to make a run. Whoever the veteran receiver specifically gets the bulk of his passes. He does that every year and never really spreads the ball around to his receivers. This year the NFL finally shined light on it. I don't get how other people can't see that.

1. It's a huge myth that Brady can play with garbage. Go check the gigantic drop in productivity that occurs when Gronk isn't on the field the last couple years. It's eye dropping. For about the last decade, he's one way or another had a lot of really great people to throw to, and when he didn't for short periods of time, it was a pedestrian offense.

2. OK, if Jordy Nelson is the Steve Smith of the Packers, then who is the Randall Cobb for the Ravens that Joe had to throw to? Who's the James Jones of this team that Joe had to throw to this season? Where are those experienced, high producing guys?

If we are going to talk about winning vs not winning, might help to also point out the 5 PPG difference in defense as well, which is a gigantic difference. Not coincidentally, that's larger than the offensive output difference between the two teams.

3. If the argument is that Torrey could have had bigger numbers with Joe, then I'd surely expect him to go elsewhere and have similar productivity. But he didnt, because as the league now knows and as the Ravens already knew, Torrey isn't really the route tree kind of guy. He's the run one route and hope the QB hits him guy, which isn't a good mark for a WR. The league stops that easily.

4. As far as WRs we've drafted, there's Torrey, who Joe almost single handedly made him a huge contract that now looks silly, there's Perriman, Camp, and Waller who are all hurt or late rounders, and then there's a long list of guys who were out of the league before their rookie deal expired. If they were talented and it was Joe's fault...then why are they out of the league? Pretty easy to not get chemistry with guys who weren't good to begin with. That's called wasting time.

Edited January 20, 2016 by rmcjacket23

[EdBallhawkReed20]

1. It's a huge myth that Brady can play with garbage. Go check the gigantic drop in productivity that occurs when Gronk isn't on the field the last couple years. It's eye dropping. For about the last decade, he's one way or another had a lot of really great people to throw to, and when he didn't for short periods of time, it was a pedestrian offense.

2. OK, if Jordy Nelson is the Steve Smith of the Packers, then who is the Randall Cobb for the Ravens that Joe had to throw to? Who's the James Jones of this team that Joe had to throw to this season? Where are those experienced, high producing guys?

If we are going to talk about winning vs not winning, might help to also point out the 5 PPG difference in defense as well, which is a gigantic difference. Not coincidentally, that's larger than the offensive output difference between the two teams.

3. If the argument is that Torrey could have had bigger numbers with Joe, then I'd surely expect him to go elsewhere and have similar productivity. But he didnt, because as the league now knows and as the Ravens already knew, Torrey isn't really the route tree kind of guy. He's the run one route and hope the QB hits him guy, which isn't a good mark for a WR. The league stops that easily.

4. As far as WRs we've drafted, there's Torrey, who Joe almost single handedly made him a huge contract that now looks silly, there's Perriman, Camp, and Waller who are all hurt or late rounders, and then there's a long list of guys who were out of the league before their rookie deal expired. If they were talented and it was Joe's fault...then why are they out of the league? Pretty easy to not get chemistry with guys who weren't good to begin with. That's called wasting time.

1. I get that but Brady finds his way to the playoffs no matter the case which I am still waiting for you to explain to me. Flacco had receivers that produced at this point or another that he had chemistry with... I doubt Marlon Brown all of a sudden forgot how to play football.

2. He had Randall Cobb in Torrey Smith. He has James Jones in Kamar Aiken or Marlon Brown take your pick. Receivers that Flacco at some point had great numbers with all of them. It took Steve Smith for him to realize he ad another receiver on the other side of the field.

3. Put Torrey Smith with Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc... I guarantee his numbers are way better than with Flacco. His numbers may increase this year with Chip Kelly in all honesty. Colin Kapernick hasn't played well in a long time and they are debating whether or not to give him up.

4. Hey I'm not trying to disrespect you in any way when I say this, but c'mon how many times does Joe Flacco under throw balls to speed receivers. Torrey Smith had to go back and fight for the ball on most of those calls he got. Thats why a lot of people thought he would be kept because its not his fault. That has 100% percent to do with Flacco. I don't know if you watch the games but Flacco did that consistently week to week. Like I said we led the league in that statistic. If you want to over look Flacco weakness as a QB and blame the players around him you can do that. As I said in #3 Torrey just didn't go to a team with a good QB. Flacco did the same thing to Chris Givens this season. Flacco will more than likely under throw Breshad Perriman as well. Mallett on the other hand 39 yard strike to Givens (Steelers game). Beyond just that game the problems with Flacco are not the same with Mallett. I never saw Mallett be predictable and throw to one guy majority of the game(s). For the first time in a long time our receivers as a unit made plays. Flacco will throw majority of his passes to Steve Smith next season, and it will be another season of blaming WR's unless we draft Laquon Treadwell (I pray we do).     

[rmcjacket23]

1. I get that but Brady finds his way to the playoffs no matter the case which I am still waiting for you to explain to me. Flacco had receivers that produced at this point or another that he had chemistry with... I doubt Marlon Brown all of a sudden forgot how to play football.

2. He had Randall Cobb in Torrey Smith. He has James Jones in Kamar Aiken or Marlon Brown take your pick. Receivers that Flacco at some point had great numbers with all of them. It took Steve Smith for him to realize he ad another receiver on the other side of the field.

3. Put Torrey Smith with Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc... I guarantee his numbers are way better than with Flacco. His numbers may increase this year with Chip Kelly in all honesty. Colin Kapernick hasn't played well in a long time and they are debating whether or not to give him up.

4. Hey I'm not trying to disrespect you in any way when I say this, but c'mon how many times does Joe Flacco under throw balls to speed receivers. Torrey Smith had to go back and fight for the ball on most of those calls he got. Thats why a lot of people thought he would be kept because its not his fault. That has 100% percent to do with Flacco. I don't know if you watch the games but Flacco did that consistently week to week. Like I said we led the league in that statistic. If you want to over look Flacco weakness as a QB and blame the players around him you can do that. As I said in #3 Torrey just didn't go to a team with a good QB. Flacco did the same thing to Chris Givens this season. Flacco will more than likely under throw Breshad Perriman as well. Mallett on the other hand 39 yard strike to Givens (Steelers game). Beyond just that game the problems with Flacco are not the same with Mallett. I never saw Mallett be predictable and throw to one guy majority of the game(s). For the first time in a long time our receivers as a unit made plays. Flacco will throw majority of his passes to Steve Smith next season, and it will be another season of blaming WR's unless we draft Laquon Treadwell (I pray we do).     

1. When did Marlon Brown ever know how to play football? Wait until he's no longer on this team next season and see what he does elsewhere. I'll make a not-so-bold prediction and say he's out of the league shortly. How does that happen with a receiver who apparently is so talented and being held back by a QB who allegedly can't develop chemistry?

 

2. Umm, lord no. There's is quite literally no similarities between Cobb and Torrey. I can't recall one time where Torrey lined up in the slot and run routes in the middle of the field at the sticks. Cobb is a dependable WR a QB can throw to when he needs a conversion and when he needs to attack the middle of the field. Torrey isn't anything like that.

 

And comparing Aiken to James Jones is laughable, considering Flacco played less than a half a season with Aiken this season and he barely played last season because he wasn't good enough to. Expect Aiken's production to decline next season, regardless of the QB. At his peak, his talent levels probably won't be anywhere near any of the three receivers in GB.

 

3. If you put Torrey with Brady, Torrey would do nothing, because Brady doesn't throw down the field and that's all Torrey knows in his route running. He MIGHT do better with Rodgers, but Rodgers, like Brady, over and under throws deep receivers on a weekly basis, but that just doesn't fit the narrative.

 

4. I'm not blaming Flacco's short comings on his receivers... I"m just destroying this notion that Joe has had supremely talented guys to throw to throughout his career, because he hasn't. He's not the most accurate QB, but that also doesn't matter, because there's only a small handful of QBs in this league that I'm actually impressed with their accuracy at this point. That's just the nature of the sport.

 

As far as Mallett, he has some serious limitations from an accuracy standpoint that shouldn't go overlooked, and it was evident in the games against Pittsburgh and especially Cincinnati. He also averaged over 10 targets a game to Aiken, and if you go look at where his passes were going in those two games, it was Aiken, Maxx Williams and RBs making up the majority of those throws, over 2/3 of them in fact. So its not like he's really spreading it around that much.

 

Plus, though we didn't run that ball that well in either game, spreading the ball around didn't really do much for us, considering we average 18PPG in those two games, which is highly unimpressive.

[757RavensFan]

1. When did Marlon Brown ever know how to play football? Wait until he's no longer on this team next season and see what he does elsewhere. I'll make a not-so-bold prediction and say he's out of the league shortly. How does that happen with a receiver who apparently is so talented and being held back by a QB who allegedly can't develop chemistry?

 

2. Umm, lord no. There's is quite literally no similarities between Cobb and Torrey. I can't recall one time where Torrey lined up in the slot and run routes in the middle of the field at the sticks. Cobb is a dependable WR a QB can throw to when he needs a conversion and when he needs to attack the middle of the field. Torrey isn't anything like that.

 

And comparing Aiken to James Jones is laughable, considering Flacco played less than a half a season with Aiken this season and he barely played last season because he wasn't good enough to. Expect Aiken's production to decline next season, regardless of the QB. At his peak, his talent levels probably won't be anywhere near any of the three receivers in GB.

 

3. If you put Torrey with Brady, Torrey would do nothing, because Brady doesn't throw down the field and that's all Torrey knows in his route running. He MIGHT do better with Rodgers, but Rodgers, like Brady, over and under throws deep receivers on a weekly basis, but that just doesn't fit the narrative.

 

4. I'm not blaming Flacco's short comings on his receivers... I"m just destroying this notion that Joe has had supremely talented guys to throw to throughout his career, because he hasn't. He's not the most accurate QB, but that also doesn't matter, because there's only a small handful of QBs in this league that I'm actually impressed with their accuracy at this point. That's just the nature of the sport.

 

As far as Mallett, he has some serious limitations from an accuracy standpoint that shouldn't go overlooked, and it was evident in the games against Pittsburgh and especially Cincinnati. He also averaged over 10 targets a game to Aiken, and if you go look at where his passes were going in those two games, it was Aiken, Maxx Williams and RBs making up the majority of those throws, over 2/3 of them in fact. So its not like he's really spreading it around that much.

 

Plus, though we didn't run that ball that well in either game, spreading the ball around didn't really do much for us, considering we average 18PPG in those two games, which is highly unimpressive.

 

I would say that was probably due to Caldwell calling a simple game plan to give Mallet the best opportunity to succeed.  

 

BTW, I didn't see the last game, (my daughter's indoor soccer game took priority) did Cinci rest their starters? 

[Drew P]

No doubt the AFC North is garbage.

[OUravensfan]

1. I get that but Brady finds his way to the playoffs no matter the case which I am still waiting for you to explain to me. Flacco had receivers that produced at this point or another that he had chemistry with... I doubt Marlon Brown all of a sudden forgot how to play football.

2. He had Randall Cobb in Torrey Smith. He has James Jones in Kamar Aiken or Marlon Brown take your pick. Receivers that Flacco at some point had great numbers with all of them. It took Steve Smith for him to realize he ad another receiver on the other side of the field.

3. Put Torrey Smith with Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc... I guarantee his numbers are way better than with Flacco. His numbers may increase this year with Chip Kelly in all honesty. Colin Kapernick hasn't played well in a long time and they are debating whether or not to give him up.

4. Hey I'm not trying to disrespect you in any way when I say this, but c'mon how many times does Joe Flacco under throw balls to speed receivers. Torrey Smith had to go back and fight for the ball on most of those calls he got. Thats why a lot of people thought he would be kept because its not his fault. That has 100% percent to do with Flacco. I don't know if you watch the games but Flacco did that consistently week to week. Like I said we led the league in that statistic. If you want to over look Flacco weakness as a QB and blame the players around him you can do that. As I said in #3 Torrey just didn't go to a team with a good QB. Flacco did the same thing to Chris Givens this season. Flacco will more than likely under throw Breshad Perriman as well. Mallett on the other hand 39 yard strike to Givens (Steelers game). Beyond just that game the problems with Flacco are not the same with Mallett. I never saw Mallett be predictable and throw to one guy majority of the game(s). For the first time in a long time our receivers as a unit made plays. Flacco will throw majority of his passes to Steve Smith next season, and it will be another season of blaming WR's unless we draft Laquon Treadwell (I pray we do).

Oh no I thought we were done with the Ryan Mallet rhetoric, fine with him as our backup, if he's our starter than we're in trouble.

Yea Flacco's never hit a WR in stride particularly Chris Givens a mid season acquisition, please spare me the Ryan Mallet is a better QB talk. Speculation about Torrey doing better in another system is just that, but Brady?, has Torrey really showed mastery of the short routes? We do have facts on how Torrey actually did do in another system, and pretty sure 3 years ago the anti-Flacco crowd was talking about how much better Keap is.

I'm with you on Treadwill, let's see if we can finally get a true #1 in here. But then we can debate if Treadwill is a bust or if Flacco is inhibiting his progression.....I'm just kidding, this forum would never do such a thing.

And path to the playoffs for Brady is a lot easier than our path, that one really isn't debatable.

http://youtu.be/Nung9QftTD8

Edited January 21, 2016 by OUravensfan

[Mold-remediation-Baltimore]

looking forward to the new coach staff!

[ellicottraven]

It also means that for Flacco to catch up to Ben, he needs to make the SB next 2 consecutive years and he'll be 33 just like Ben at that point.