JJ's Final mock before combine ( no, really)

[52520Andrew]

I saw Cill's video live so I'll fill you in on the details when I get home but Logan Thomas is not your typical QB.

[ravefan52]

because our ILBs require a certain amount of physicality and shedding and weaving ability and without those characteristics they will be relegated to a part time role consisting of either designed blitzes or coverage, not saying jack is incapable but he obviously is not on the same level as a cj mosley in those regards, the simple fact is that myles jack is undersized as an ILB in our system and we simply dont see successful undersized ILBs playing for us, the smallest ILB we had was dannell ellerbe and he had a staggering 20 lbs more than jack who is estimated to weight in at 220.. i dont trust it with a 6th overall pick.

and by predictable i mean jack would be doing one thing and mosley would be doing another and teams would petty much always know who is doing what, they would know that jack wont be thumping anyone and gap integrity will never be a thing for him. id prefer an ILB who can cover and thump and blitz and roam altogether so that we can be creative and not predictable

Okay, well Jack is listed at 245. We'll have to see what he is at the combine, but for now I'm not going off some estimate. If his listed measurables are correct then he's basically the same exact size as Ellerbe and Ray Lewis was. Also Mosley is listed at 235. And even if Jack is smaller it's fine. We haven't had successful undersized ILB's here, but we've only drafted one such player in the first 4 rounds (Arthur Brown) and I don't believe that's nearly enough of a sample size to determine that.

Jack's not your traditional Ravens linebacker, but the game is changing. Freak athletes who are great in coverage are so valuable nowadays. I do kind of understand being worried about him in the run game. He's obviously not the biggest guy. But I think he's underrated in that aspect and I've seen him blow up olinemen before. He's good enough there into. I also understand not wanting to take an ILB at 6 (I actually hate taking them early), but for me Jack is a rare exception with his athleticism, instincts and overall coverage ability.

[JoeyFlex5]

Okay, well Jack is listed at 245. We'll have to see what he is at the combine, but for now I'm not going off some estimate. If his listed measurables are correct then he's basically the same exact size as Ellerbe and Ray Lewis was. Also Mosley is listed at 235. And even if Jack is smaller it's fine. We haven't had successful undersized ILB's here, but we've only drafted one such player in the first 4 rounds (Arthur Brown) and I don't believe that's nearly enough of a sample size to determine that.

Jack's not your traditional Ravens linebacker, but the game is changing. Freak athletes who are great in coverage are so valuable nowadays. I do kind of understand being worried about him in the run game. He's obviously not the biggest guy. But I think he's underrated in that aspect and I've seen him blow up olinemen before. He's good enough there into. I also understand not wanting to take an ILB at 6 (I actually hate taking them early), but for me Jack is a rare exception with his athleticism, instincts and overall coverage ability.

i have not seen anywhere that states mosley is 235 but ok. so youre telling me you think myles jacks playing weight in college is 10lbs higher than mosleys nfl playing weight? thats just a prime example of colleges fudging measurables. i will take comparisons and projections over organizations that have been proven to blatantly lie consistently.

 

also, i have seen jack get decleated by a qb, washed near the front seven, and take bad angles through clutter because he cant flow strong to the ball too often for me to think he can play in our front seven, no matter how much the game may be shifting towards a more athletic game, the winningest teams can still pound the ball/control the clock, i dont want an ILB who cant defend that consistently. i just dont look for slot coverage as my primary asset from my top 10 ILB lol. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Cillmatic]

I saw Cill's video live so I'll fill you in on the details when I get home but Logan Thomas is not your typical QB.

I know but he's still a QB and besides, I don't see MLB's get bounced off THAT badly.

[GrimCoconut]

I know but he's still a QB and besides, I don't see MLB's get bounced off THAT badly.

Every prospect in this class has holes in their game and bad moments except probably Tunsil.

[ravefan52]

i have not seen anywhere that states mosley is 235 but ok. so youre telling me you think myles jacks playing weight in college is 10lbs higher than mosleys nfl playing weight? thats just a prime example of colleges fudging measurables. i will take comparisons and projections over organizations that have been proven to blatantly lie consistently.

 

also, i have seen jack get decleated by a qb, washed near the front seven, and take bad angles through clutter because he cant flow strong to the ball too often for me to think he can play in our front seven, no matter how much the game may be shifting towards a more athletic game, the winningest teams can still pound the ball/control the clock, i dont want an ILB who cant defend that consistently. i just dont look for slot coverage as my primary asset from my top 10 ILB lol. 

Baltimoreravens.com, NFL.com, ESPN and Rotoworld all have Mosley at 235. I acknowledged Jack's listed weight may not be right and we'll have to wait till the combine, but I still don't think he's like miniature. I'm no physical trainer or anything, but he also looks like he has room to add a decent amount of muscle and bulk up, something he has probably been doing with his knee keeping him sidelined. Shaq Thompson played great this season at linebacker, albeit in a 4-3, at only 230.

 

That doesn't sound as bad when you consider it was Logan Thomas, the guy who's 6'6 250 lbs, which by the way is bigger than Cam Newton. It was a bad play, but those just happen sometimes. I've seen him show power as a linebacker (Here's one example) and as a running back (I know it's different, but still you can see he has it). I think he has great instincts against the run and has the ability to shed blocks - example. Also interesting to note that both of those plays came when he was lined up as a traditional linebacker. Seems like we just disagree on him as a prospect which is fine, but he does a lot more than just cover the slot.

[GrimCoconut]

Baltimoreravens.com, NFL.com, ESPN and Rotoworld all have Mosley at 235. I acknowledged Jack's listed weight may not be right and we'll have to wait till the combine, but I still don't think he's like miniature. I'm no physical trainer or anything, but he also looks like he has room to add a decent amount of muscle and bulk up, something he has probably been doing with his knee keeping him sidelined. Shaq Thompson played great this season at linebacker, albeit in a 4-3, at only 230.

That doesn't sound as bad when you consider it was Logan Thomas, the guy who's 6'6 250 lbs, which by the way is bigger than Cam Newton. It was a bad play, but those just happen sometimes. I've seen him show power as a linebacker (Here's one example) and as a running back (I know it's different, but still you can see he has it). I think he has great instincts against the run and has the ability to shed blocks - example. Also interesting to note that both of those plays came when he was lined up as a traditional linebacker. Seems like we just disagree on him as a prospect which is fine, but he does a lot more than just cover the slot.

Another quality making Jack a great fit is he helps us disguise our formations. We can show a 3-4 look, then bring an OLB forward to have a four man front and potentially drop Jack into coverage on a WR, RB, or TE, which as others stated have killed us lately. We could also bring five guys forward on the DL to have a 5-1 formation with Mosley at MLB and Jack back as a safety or CB, potentially. He'd be a real chess piece and certainly an every down player.

[ravefan52]

Another quality making Jack a great fit is he helps us disguise our formations. We can show a 3-4 look, then bring an OLB forward to have a four man front and potentially drop Jack into coverage on a WR, RB, or TE, which as others stated have killed us lately. We could also bring five guys forward on the DL to have a 5-1 formation with Mosley at MLB and Jack back as a safety or CB, potentially. He'd be a real chess piece and certainly an every down player.

Exactly, it'd be the opposite of predictable. That is however, if Pees is creative enough to use him like that.

Edited January 21, 2016 by ravefan52

[JoeyFlex5]

Baltimoreravens.com, NFL.com, ESPN and Rotoworld all have Mosley at 235. I acknowledged Jack's listed weight may not be right and we'll have to wait till the combine, but I still don't think he's like miniature. I'm no physical trainer or anything, but he also looks like he has room to add a decent amount of muscle and bulk up, something he has probably been doing with his knee keeping him sidelined. Shaq Thompson played great this season at linebacker, albeit in a 4-3, at only 230.

 

That doesn't sound as bad when you consider it was Logan Thomas, the guy who's 6'6 250 lbs, which by the way is bigger than Cam Newton. It was a bad play, but those just happen sometimes. I've seen him show power as a linebacker (Here's one example) and as a running back (I know it's different, but still you can see he has it). I think he has great instincts against the run and has the ability to shed blocks - example. Also interesting to note that both of those plays came when he was lined up as a traditional linebacker. Seems like we just disagree on him as a prospect which is fine, but he does a lot more than just cover the slot.

i was exaggerating when i said he just covers the slot lol, just a generalization to get my point across. and i know he has shown his fair share against the run, but i also think he has shown his fair share of bad play against the run as well. and you mentioned shaq thompson, but you admitted he was in a 4-3, its just a whole different ball game playing 4-3 olb.

 

he may be able to bulk up, ill admit he doesnt look maxed out, but if were talking about a LB who makes a living on his speed and explosion, then i dont think you can bank on him being able to bulk up 15 lbs and retain all of that same skill set at 6th overall, i mean we know that underweight ILBs can very well struggle in our system, im just not sold on spending a 6 on a guy who may be a liability on first and 2nd down. 

 

but for those who do like him, i totally understand, just not my cup of tea.

[Cillmatic]

Kinda tired of us looking at these Tiny MLB's. Whatever happened to the big guys?

[52520Andrew]

Kinda tired of us looking at these Tiny MLB's. Whatever happened to the big guys?

They are the guys who can't cover and only bring value as a 2 down player unless you get a freak athlete on your hands.

[52520Andrew]

I know but he's still a QB and besides, I don't see MLB's get bounced off THAT badly.

The guy was around the same size as Cam Newton at QB and routinely was tough to bring down. That was a good play by him and a bad one by Jack no doubt but it was also more than 2 years ago and Jack has no doubt gotten stronger since then. The big thing with Logan Thomas is that he wasn't a great passer even though he had a big arm but he still ended up getting drafted and I think is being developed down in Arizona.

[GrimCoconut]

i was exaggerating when i said he just covers the slot lol, just a generalization to get my point across. and i know he has shown his fair share against the run, but i also think he has shown his fair share of bad play against the run as well. and you mentioned shaq thompson, but you admitted he was in a 4-3, its just a whole different ball game playing 4-3 olb.

 

he may be able to bulk up, ill admit he doesnt look maxed out, but if were talking about a LB who makes a living on his speed and explosion, then i dont think you can bank on him being able to bulk up 15 lbs and retain all of that same skill set at 6th overall, i mean we know that underweight ILBs can very well struggle in our system, im just not sold on spending a 6 on a guy who may be a liability on first and 2nd down. 

 

but for those who do like him, i totally understand, just not my cup of tea.

I don't think the issue with Arthur Brown is his weight. I think it's in his head. 

 

Bart Scott wasn't exactly heavy here. I think he played around 240ish & he was taller than Ray. IIRC, I think Bowman was considered a 4-3 OLB but he ended up doing well in the 3-4. I know he weighed a bit more, but we'll have to see how that goes. Since we run a mix of schemes & use the two-gap a lot when defending the run, theoretically, the OL shouldn't be able to get a hand on him. That said, even when I saw the OL get a hand on him he's able to make guys miss, possibly why he can be an effective RB. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by GrimCoconut

[January J]

More speculation on my part but I think we are shifting towards more of a 4-3. And when we are in subpackages for 60% of our snaps, I really don't see it as that big of a deal.

I have no doubts that Ramsey could help us over the middle but you have said you aren't a fan of him anyways so you trying to argue for him is a little odd considering you would rather see us go another direction.

And with that, I have said this multiple times but the middle of the field is our biggest weakness on defense. Ignoring that for a player who I don't think is as talented as Jack(unless Tunsil or Bosa falls) doesn't seem like a smart move. Go watch Buckner against Ohio State and tell me how sold you are on him handling 2 gaps in a base 3-4. How about a guy who can't separate in Treadwell? Have you seen Stanley run block? What Jack brings to the table to me is better.

I also think Jack can hold an edge very well. I don't think he is a guy to engage blockers and set one to avoid confusion but runners do not get around him to the outside and I think this is something that could help us a lot as well with our lack of speed in the front 7. In fact him keeping runners from getting around him can be almost as exciting as watching him in coverage as he can make it look easy. You could move a guy like him over the slot and the offense has to respect the ability of him to blitz, especially with Webb able to step up and take the slot guy. He is far from a 1 dimensional player and could help our front 7 quite a bit. It also lets Mosely do what he is better at in stopping the run as opposed to watching him get torched over and over in coverage and lets us drop our safeties deep as opposed to having to move Hill up to account for our lack of coverage from the LB position.

gotta agree here..You make some strong points. Watching runners get around the edge this year absolutely drove me crazy. And a ILB who's main strength is in coverage is kind of questionable but that was a huge weakness of ours and we got absolutely killed over the middle. We will be playing the east next season and nothing would frustrate me more than watching Brady dink and dunk his way down the feild and us not being able to do anything about it. Certainly not the sole reason to draft a player..and def not that high. But I agree that he could be used as a real chess peice if we utilized him properly. I would consider him as a strong trade back target..and if he slipped into the mid 20s I would trade back in to the first and pounce.

[JoeyFlex5]

I don't think the issue with Arthur Brown is his weight. I think it's in his head. 

 

Bart Scott wasn't exactly heavy here. I think he played around 240ish & he was taller than Ray. IIRC, I think Bowman was considered a 4-3 OLB but he ended up doing well in the 3-4. I know he weighed a bit more, but we'll have to see how that goes. Since we run a mix of schemes & use the two-gap a lot when defending the run, theoretically, the OL shouldn't be able to get a hand on him. That said, even when I saw the OL get a hand on him he's able to make guys miss, possibly why he can be an effective RB. 

all good points, and i agree about arthur brown. and for the jack and bowman comparison, well arthur brown was getting that same comparison lol, not saying theyre the same as jack looks far more talented, but theyre both tradition 4-3 OLBs who are fast and undersized and its just always a concern to expect them to successfully convert, i just wouldnt wanna bet on it at 6th overall. if we ran a power-man blocking scheme i wouldnt want us to take stanley at 6th and expect him to succeed in a system that could expose him, if we ran a tampa 2 i wouldnt want us to take alexander and ask him to zone cover. the whole idea of it just worries me, i think taking prospects and telling them to play a role that they are not built for is a good way to blow a 6th overall pick. am i saying it will certainly happen? not at all, but id feel safer taking a guy who is diverse or is a scheme fit.

[ravensnation5220]

all good points, and i agree about arthur brown. and for the jack and bowman comparison, well arthur brown was getting that same comparison lol, not saying theyre the same as jack looks far more talented, but theyre both tradition 4-3 OLBs who are fast and undersized and its just always a concern to expect them to successfully convert, i just wouldnt wanna bet on it at 6th overall. if we ran a power-man blocking scheme i wouldnt want us to take stanley at 6th and expect him to succeed in a system that could expose him, if we ran a tampa 2 i wouldnt want us to take alexander and ask him to zone cover. the whole idea of it just worries me, i think taking prospects and telling them to play a role that they are not built for is a good way to blow a 6th overall pick. am i saying it will certainly happen? not at all, but id feel safer taking a guy who is diverse or is a scheme fit.

i honesly do believe linebackers dont need to be all that big anymore. Not all of them at least. They just need to be able to cover a lot of ground and that is exactly what we need. We were getting killed across the middle all season because we dont truly have a WILL linebacker, mosely plays that roll but hes better used as a blitzer or against the run. I dont think weight is the issue here or the scheme, because in a 4-3 you have 2 edge guys, usually one to stuff the run and one to blitze, he could also be used there to cover tight ends or running backs to the flat. You put him at middle and let him fly sideline to sideline as either mosely or smith eat up blocks or pulling gaurds, hes a 3 down linebacker in any scheme and thats something thats very hard to find nowadays

[ravefan52]

The guy was around the same size as Cam Newton at QB and routinely was tough to bring down. That was a good play by him and a bad one by Jack no doubt but it was also more than 2 years ago and Jack has no doubt gotten stronger since then. The big thing with Logan Thomas is that he wasn't a great passer even though he had a big arm but he still ended up getting drafted and I think is being developed down in Arizona.

He got cut by AZ, on the Dolphins now.

[52520Andrew]

He got cut by AZ, on the Dolphins now.

 

Ah did not know that. Definitely one of those guys who needs to find the right place to develop though to have any shot in the NFL.

[Prino61]

If we end up with LEONARD FLOYD and DEFOREST BUCKNER I will be one happy camper

Edited January 26, 2016 by Prino61