Realisticly What do you think happens to Tucker, K.O. and Upshaw this off season?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On February 1, 2016 at 11:17 AM, PurpleCity5 said:

I don't see K.O going into that mold of a LG who can play LT role, it doesn't sit well honestly considering the needs we have on this team, either he plays LT full time or he walks. We have too many options for us to pay him to be a LG, I don't see him returning as a LG. If he returns, it will be as our LT. In that sense, what role would Eugene have on this team? Absolutely none, he would sit on the bench, I don't think that will sit well with a player who doesn't see eye-to-eye with the organization.

 

As of now, there's no need to see if he can stay healthy because he's proven he cannot. One year, its an injury riddled season, but two years in a row and its a trend. As I reiterated, its not even the games he missed, its the ones he failed to finish, that tells a bigger story to me. 

 

I don't see Yanda and K.O situation in a comparable light simply because LT is the more important position on line. This isn't to understate the important of Right tackle, but if I can recall, our guard situation would've went downhill reguardless had Yanda switched to RT simply because of how awful the entire OL was. It wouldn't have made a big difference, we didn't have nearly as much flexibility, but K.O's situation is more flexable simply because of the guys we have right now. 

So we fundamentally disagree on KO's position as a player, and because of that any discussion on salaries, cap space, starting vs sitting, and Monroe don't matter. 

My question to you is - why do you think KO... A left guard, who has played that position his entire NFL career... Will only play next year as a LT? 

4 games of decent tackle play, only out of necessity due to injuries absolutely guarantees a career altering, permanent position switch?

i think I'm in the minority here but I just don't see it. Just from a GM's perspective - I can see the positional flexibility adding to KOs value as a guard if I'm looking to sign him... But if he's adamant on being viewed strictly as a LT I'd be extremely wary in signing him to franchise LT money based on a very small sample size playing amongst backups in borderline meaningless games. 

Leveraging himself that way IMO puts him at best in that 2nd tier of FA tackles with some really good ones on the market...

Or he can be far and away the best guard on the market with the added bonus of possibly playing LT if needed. 

Bc of that he may even stand to make more money by marketing himself as a guard as opposed to making the permanent switch. 

[rmcjacket23]

7 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

So we fundamentally disagree on KO's position as a player, and because of that any discussion on salaries, cap space, starting vs sitting, and Monroe don't matter. 

My question to you is - why do you think KO... A left guard, who has played that position his entire NFL career... Will only play next year as a LT? 

4 games of decent tackle play, only out of necessity due to injuries absolutely guarantees a career altering, permanent position switch?

i think I'm in the minority here but I just don't see it. Just from a GM's perspective - I can see the positional flexibility adding to KOs value as a guard if I'm looking to sign him... But if he's adamant on being viewed strictly as a LT I'd be extremely wary in signing him to franchise LT money based on a very small sample size playing amongst backups in borderline meaningless games. 

Leveraging himself that way IMO puts him at best in that 2nd tier of FA tackles with some really good ones on the market...

Or he can be far and away the best guard on the market with the added bonus of possibly playing LT if needed. 

Bc of that he may even stand to make more money by marketing himself as a guard as opposed to making the permanent switch. 

Well, if you are putting yourself in KO's agent's perspective... which position makes more money? A LT or a LG? The answer, by most standards, is a LT, even as an average one.

So you market yourself as a LT, a team signs you as a LT, and if you don't work out there, you go play Guard for that team and probably dominate, and at that point, you're just a highly paid Guard.

If you market yourself as a Guard, and you sign with a team and they want to play you at LT and you succeed there, then you are not maximizing your value at your position.

I think a team with a premium in cap space (of which there are plenty) could easily sign him to a large deal (combination of 2nd tier LT money and top tier Guard money... probably around $8M+ a year) and just figure out afterwards where he's going to play. If he works out at LT, great, he's probably playing below market value. If he doesn't, then your a team with a highly paid, high quality Guard, and you probably don't care about the price tag because you've got tons of cap space.

There's no shortage of teams that I see that fit this mold. Off the top of my head...Bears, Bucs, Giants, Browns, Rams, Chiefs, Chargers, etc. All figure to have plenty of cap space and all could certainly use upgrades on the Oline at multiple spots, including Guard and Tackle.

[PurpleCity5]

8 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

So we fundamentally disagree on KO's position as a player, and because of that any discussion on salaries, cap space, starting vs sitting, and Monroe don't matter. 

My question to you is - why do you think KO... A left guard, who has played that position his entire NFL career... Will only play next year as a LT? 

4 games of decent tackle play, only out of necessity due to injuries absolutely guarantees a career altering, permanent position switch?

i think I'm in the minority here but I just don't see it. Just from a GM's perspective - I can see the positional flexibility adding to KOs value as a guard if I'm looking to sign him... But if he's adamant on being viewed strictly as a LT I'd be extremely wary in signing him to franchise LT money based on a very small sample size playing amongst backups in borderline meaningless games. 

Leveraging himself that way IMO puts him at best in that 2nd tier of FA tackles with some really good ones on the market...

Or he can be far and away the best guard on the market with the added bonus of possibly playing LT if needed. 

Bc of that he may even stand to make more money by marketing himself as a guard as opposed to making the permanent switch. 

Of course I expect him to return at LT. Also are we paying him franchise LT money? I heavily doubt it, like you said, the sample size is small, so why would we pay up? Why would anyone do so? I see K.O getting offers that make him a top 5 highest paid LG because that's how people will and should view him.  Just because he played 4 games at LT doesn't mean we have to pay him to be one. 

 

Also, am I super confident at moving him to LT? Maybe not, but sometimes your only options are your best options. I don't feel like Eugene Monroe is a good option either, I'm just not ecstatic about him.

I also wouldn't call those games K.O played in meaningless, he knows that every game could alter his F.A, and he played against some stiff competition in K.C and Seattle. 

 

I'm sure K.O's agent also has in mind that seeing his guy as a LT could make him more money here and force Ozzie to pay up an added bonus for it. I don't think added flexibility matters when you have options at Guard and have other spots you need to fill badly. I personally think Ozzie wouldn't bring back K.O if it wasn't at LT. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

On February 3, 2016 at 8:58 AM, rmcjacket23 said:

Well, if you are putting yourself in KO's agent's perspective... which position makes more money? A LT or a LG? The answer, by most standards, is a LT, even as an average one.

So you market yourself as a LT, a team signs you as a LT, and if you don't work out there, you go play Guard for that team and probably dominate, and at that point, you're just a highly paid Guard.

If you market yourself as a Guard, and you sign with a team and they want to play you at LT and you succeed there, then you are not maximizing your value at your position.

I think a team with a premium in cap space (of which there are plenty) could easily sign him to a large deal (combination of 2nd tier LT money and top tier Guard money... probably around $8M+ a year) and just figure out afterwards where he's going to play. If he works out at LT, great, he's probably playing below market value. If he doesn't, then your a team with a highly paid, high quality Guard, and you probably don't care about the price tag because you've got tons of cap space.

There's no shortage of teams that I see that fit this mold. Off the top of my head...Bears, Bucs, Giants, Browns, Rams, Chiefs, Chargers, etc. All figure to have plenty of cap space and all could certainly use upgrades on the Oline at multiple spots, including Guard and Tackle.

That's what I was getting at. I know generally speaking LTs make more than guards... But will the 4th or 5th tackle make more than the top guard in this market??

as a guard I think he'd become the highest paid guard in the game... Or pretty dean close. 

As a tackle, I don't think that he'd make top 10 tackle money. 

That may still be more than the top guard... Idk. I could be wrong, but being paid as the top guard may be more than what he could earn as a tackle. 

[rmcjacket23]

13 hours ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

That's what I was getting at. I know generally speaking LTs make more than guards... But will the 4th or 5th tackle make more than the top guard in this market??

as a guard I think he'd become the highest paid guard in the game... Or pretty dean close. 

As a tackle, I don't think that he'd make top 10 tackle money. 

That may still be more than the top guard... Idk. I could be wrong, but being paid as the top guard may be more than what he could earn as a tackle. 

Given the current market, a mid-tier starting LT makes at least $7M a year. I said in an earlier post... there really aren't any starting LTs in the league that I see (excluding rookie contracts) making less than $7M a year except Michael Oher.

Monroe at $7.5M a year is the 12th highest paid LT right now. The Jared Veldheer, King Dunlap group is smack dab in the middle at the low end of veteran LT salaries, right at $7M a year. Consider that against the fact that there's only 5 Guards in the entire league making $7M or more, and there's a significant gap in value there.

Basically, average LTs make about as much as most of the great Guards in this league. The best Guards in the league wouldn't crack the top 10 in earnings for LTs.

[ALPHA]

Realistically I think Monroe gets one more shot to prove that he can get healthy, I would be very surprised if KO stays.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

9 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

Given the current market, a mid-tier starting LT makes at least $7M a year. I said in an earlier post... there really aren't any starting LTs in the league that I see (excluding rookie contracts) making less than $7M a year except Michael Oher.

Monroe at $7.5M a year is the 12th highest paid LT right now. The Jared Veldheer, King Dunlap group is smack dab in the middle at the low end of veteran LT salaries, right at $7M a year. Consider that against the fact that there's only 5 Guards in the entire league making $7M or more, and there's a significant gap in value there.

Basically, average LTs make about as much as most of the great Guards in this league. The best Guards in the league wouldn't crack the top 10 in earnings for LTs.

Thanks for putting some actual numbers to the thought process. 

For what it's worth, as a guard I think KO easily gets top 5 money especially with the cap acceleration. And I'd be surprised if as a LT he makes much more on average than Monroe/Veldheer did 2 offseasons ago since they were 2 of the top 3 on the market and had much more experience and a proven track record. 

So it looks like to me his value as a LT and guard are pretty comparable so it may be a moot point. 

[Winchester]

I guarantee if KO plays left tackle he will be top5!! I would bet money on it. Monroe is not to be counted on. If KO is let go it will leave Monroe hurst and a rookie. It would nullify any work oz and Decosta do at WR. Just because somebody is getting paid good money should not mean he is a viable option!! If KO walks and Monroe sucks which he will if he even plays that is!! Where would it leave the ravens at left tackle?? Joe Cool hurt again?? Why not just let Monroe play out his contract and wait for him to play well??!! He played 2 yrs and was mediocre when he even played.

16 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Realistically I think Monroe gets one more shot to prove that he can get healthy, I would be very surprised if KO stays.

 

[Mad Puppy]

I know I'm in the minority here but....

Most important Free agent:

 The Kicker is not a must resign.....There is little difference from top 5 to #15 in the Kicker department. Almost any kicker will do. Get one for a better price.

The offense must get the team in good field position to make the kicker effective. After all Tucker missed several over 50 yards. meaning he had to attempt an unusually large amount of extra long field goals. His FG percentage has been below 90% the past two seasons. He is not, I repeat NOT a priority. This team needs offensive weapons and OL help more than some over priced kicker.

[rmcjacket23]

48 minutes ago, Mad Puppy said:

I know I'm in the minority here but....

Most important Free agent:

 The Kicker is not a must resign.....There is little difference from top 5 to #15 in the Kicker department. Almost any kicker will do. Get one for a better price.

The offense must get the team in good field position to make the kicker effective. After all Tucker missed several over 50 yards. meaning he had to attempt an unusually large amount of extra long field goals. His FG percentage has been below 90% the past two seasons. He is not, I repeat NOT a priority. This team needs offensive weapons and OL help more than some over priced kicker.

Well its borderline impossible to be an overpaid kicker.

The difference between the best kicker and the tenth best kicker is less than $2M a year, and you aren't getting offensive weapons or Oline upgrades for that price difference.

 

[ellicottraven]

Jermon Bushrod has just been released by the Bears. He is a Towson player who we tried to get from NO a while back I think. Adding him to the roster would give us needed tackle depth I think and also not pressure us into having to select a tackle with our first pick...

[allblackraven]

18 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Jermon Bushrod has just been released by the Bears. He is a Towson player who we tried to get from NO a while back I think. Adding him to the roster would give us needed tackle depth I think and also not pressure us into having to select a tackle with our first pick...

He's been really bad in Chicago last couple seasons, though. Looked like he hit the wall after turning 30.

[rmcjacket23]

18 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

Jermon Bushrod has just been released by the Bears. He is a Towson player who we tried to get from NO a while back I think. Adding him to the roster would give us needed tackle depth I think and also not pressure us into having to select a tackle with our first pick...

Maybe, but the whole idea of selecting a tackle early is to attempt to solve the problem long term.

Bushrod doesn't solve anything long term. We'd likely be having this same conversation again in 12 months.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 hours ago, ellicottraven said:

Jermon Bushrod has just been released by the Bears. He is a Towson player who we tried to get from NO a while back I think. Adding him to the roster would give us needed tackle depth I think and also not pressure us into having to select a tackle with our first pick...

Will Beatty was let go by the giants a little bit ago as well. 

He missed a lot of time for a pectoral injury I believe and is aging, but was one of the better LTs in the league just a few years ago.

i wouldn't consider either a starter, and if any team in FA does then were out of the market, but I'd probably take either on the cheap for depth at the tackle positions. 

[usmccharles]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 5:43 PM, Mad Puppy said:

I know I'm in the minority here but....

Most important Free agent:

 The Kicker is not a must resign.....There is little difference from top 5 to #15 in the Kicker department. Almost any kicker will do. Get one for a better price.

The offense must get the team in good field position to make the kicker effective. After all Tucker missed several over 50 yards. meaning he had to attempt an unusually large amount of extra long field goals. His FG percentage has been below 90% the past two seasons. He is not, I repeat NOT a priority. This team needs offensive weapons and OL help more than some over priced kicker.

There is a huge difference between a top 5 kicker and a top 15 kicker in skill, but not too much in money.  Any kicker will do? See Cundiff, enough said.  Tucker kicked the most 50 yard FGs in the league last year, I think by at least 4.   Tucker has always been clutch for us and he would only cost another two mill than what he was making this last year.  Has tucker ever missed a game winning field goal? honestly Im asking because I cant think of one.  He is an offensive weapon and the dude is money inside 40, the guy made a 61 yard FG to win a game on the road.... One of 5 kickers not to miss an extra point.  You don't get better by not paying one of your players that are best at their position when he's affordable, if anything we would be stupid not to pay him.  

I broke down this position pretty well and compared his performance to money a couple pages back if you want to look at it.  You don't let a top 5 kicker go for 2 mill a year when that puts him in the pay bracket he deserves to be. 

[HoldingCall]

KO is an interesting conversation. Maybe there is no money but how is the depth at G and Tackle? We saw what happened when Suggs went down  after McPhee had to go elsewhere. So, what happens in the case KO's replacement or Monroe goes down? Is the team deep enough at LG and LT to protect Joe; the team's most expensive player? 

Second rate protection is the quickest way to shorten a QB's season or career. I watched Tom Brady get beat up by some teams, taking a lot of hits, are we ready to see the same with Joe? Which coach gets the blame if pockets collapse against the better teams next season? No one wants to see the team use insurance of a "Smart Car" (if KO's replacement goes down or Monroe goes down) to cover the BMW.

[rmcjacket23]

36 minutes ago, HoldingCall said:

KO is an interesting conversation. Maybe there is no money but how is the depth at G and Tackle? We saw what happened when Suggs went down  after McPhee had to go elsewhere. So, what happens in the case KO's replacement or Monroe goes down? Is the team deep enough at LG and LT to protect Joe; the team's most expensive player? 

Second rate protection is the quickest way to shorten a QB's season or career. I watched Tom Brady get beat up by some teams, taking a lot of hits, are we ready to see the same with Joe? Which coach gets the blame if pockets collapse against the better teams next season? No one wants to see the team use insurance of a "Smart Car" (if KO's replacement goes down or Monroe goes down) to cover the BMW.

In theory, we have solid players and depth on the interior of the Oline. Tackle is certainly a problem in terms of both starters and depth.

The thing with the offensive line, as we've seen, is its more about playing your best five lineman, regardless of position, then it is having depth at all spots.

For example, the backup RT is really Marshal Yanda, our starting RG. We also saw KO kick outside to LT instead of Hurst the latter part of the year, though that won't work if he's not here.

He have Yanda, Zuttah, Urschel and Jensen who can all play the interior line pretty well in my opinion, so unless we have multiple injuries in those spots, we have good depth there.

The only position on the Oline where I'm currently worried about depth (and maybe even starter) is LT. I think we will have suitable replacements for all other positions on the line, assuming we don't have 3-4 injuries at once. If we do, like most teams, we are screwed regardless.

[HoldingCall]

20 hours ago, rmcjacket23 said:

In theory, we have solid players and depth on the interior of the Oline. Tackle is certainly a problem in terms of both starters and depth.

The thing with the offensive line, as we've seen, is its more about playing your best five lineman, regardless of position, then it is having depth at all spots.

For example, the backup RT is really Marshal Yanda, our starting RG. We also saw KO kick outside to LT instead of Hurst the latter part of the year, though that won't work if he's not here.

He have Yanda, Zuttah, Urschel and Jensen who can all play the interior line pretty well in my opinion, so unless we have multiple injuries in those spots, we have good depth there.

The only position on the Oline where I'm currently worried about depth (and maybe even starter) is LT. I think we will have suitable replacements for all other positions on the line, assuming we don't have 3-4 injuries at once. If we do, like most teams, we are screwed regardless.

I think that's a pretty good assessment. If/when KO leaves, who's the likely successor at starting LG of those on the team? Also we can assume that due to Monroe's injury history, a LT with potential to become the starter is likely high on the list of priorities through draft or other means.

[cursona pirate]

Only see Tucker coming back, and maybe for only a year.

 

KO will get some sum Ravens wont have a chance of matching.

Upshaw will go to the Bills or something. 

[usmccharles]

29 minutes ago, cursona pirate said:

Only see Tucker coming back, and maybe for only a year.

 

KO will get some sum Ravens wont have a chance of matching.

Upshaw will go to the Bills or something. 

You think we tag tucker then let him Walk  after that? 

[POE]

I think if they see KO as a priority than they are going to have to restructure the Flacco deal to come even close to a new deal for KO. If they don't do anything to Joe's current deal than I think we can pretty much guarantee KO is a goner. I personally think keeping him should be the #1 priority but it's not going to be easy. 

I don't see any way we lose out on Tucker. Even at a #1, 2 or 3 contract for a kicker it shouldn't break the bank either way and Tucker is worth it IMO. He's reliable, has a great attitude, and some of his numbers he has put up are pretty telling as to what kind of career he has the potential to have. I was there for the Matt Stover years and it was nice to know your guy was going to make the kick more than not. 

Upshaw is solid and I think they make an offer but probably get outbid elsewhere. He's been an under the radar kind of player but nothing really stands out with they guy. It'll be interesting to see how his situation plays out. 

[cursona pirate]

23 hours ago, usmccharles said:

You think we tag tucker then let him Walk  after that? 

depends how good of a year Tucker has.

If he gets in the high 90s in made attempts, it could be a possiblity. I hope Tucker would stick to Bmore though for the team and fanbase. But I have been blind sided before and players leaving for crappy teams cause of $$$$

[ellicottraven]

On 2/17/2016 at 8:30 PM, rmcjacket23 said:

Maybe, but the whole idea of selecting a tackle early is to attempt to solve the problem long term.

Bushrod doesn't solve anything long term. We'd likely be having this same conversation again in 12 months.

I'm only thinking short term as a Hurst replacement. I really believe that Monroe will play a full season this year and be adequate. I don't think the Ravens cut him unless of course they find a desirable trading partner...

[rmcjacket23]

10 minutes ago, ellicottraven said:

I'm only thinking short term as a Hurst replacement. I really believe that Monroe will play a full season this year and be adequate. I don't think the Ravens cut him unless of course they find a desirable trading partner...

Signing a veteran as depth is certainly a possibility.

For what its worth, I don't think it will be Bushrod. He evidently needs shoulder surgery and may not be back until training camp or later, so while he could be a bargain in the late summer, I wouldn't expect him to get signed until quite a bit later than most FAs.

[gabefergy]

Tucker will be extended or tagged.

Upshaw will be allowed to walk, although I will wager they offer him something cheap.

K.O. I think is gone. 20% he re-signs, 80% he goes elsewhere. Not enough cap space and he will demand top money. $9-10M/year won't surprise me.

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

If they redo Flacco's contract I think KO has a better than average shot at staying.

[Sherly_Tebow]

Just saw ESPN say the Ravens will use the franchise tag on Tucker if a deal can't be reached. No surprise there.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Sherly_Tebow

[Moderator 3]

8 hours ago, Sherly_Tebow said:

Just saw ESPN say the Ravens will use the franchise tag on Tucker if a deal can't be reached. No surprise there.

Gee, you could have seen that on our own front page.

[Daft Classic]

Just got a Bleacher Report notification that the Ravens aren't going after KO because they feel he doesn't love football enough. Anyone else get this?

Edited February 25, 2016 by Daft Classic

[AsianRice]

4 hours ago, Moderator 3 said:

Gee, you could have seen that on our own front page.

I've first seen it from our web page.....I'm not sure what ESPN web site or channel looks like....

Edited February 25, 2016 by AsianRice