Who should we take at #6?

[Winchester]

3 hours ago, Clmraven said:

I disagree there's plenty of Interior lineman that go top ten that aren't even established pass rushers coming out of college, and based on Buckner's senior year I'd say he's a better pass rusher than Leonard Williams, and frankly he is a better prospect coming out of college than Watt was, you can't compare Buckner in college to Watt in the NFL, Watt is gonna go down as one of the best to ever play at any position, so just stop the whole "not in the same league as watt" thing because there is not one person in the NFL on the same level as Watt.

Some players are not great rushers yet but the team believes the player has the raw skill to become an elite sack producer. Some players are better coming out while some like watt have more raw skill. Buckner may be as good of a rusher as Williams coming out. But then again I think Williams was seriously overrated. I said he would fall outside top5 and he did. No player will be drafted top 5 without the drafting team thinking he has double digit sack potential. 3-4 defensive ends free up mates. Being a slightly better pressuring QBs is not enough playmaking to justify top5. Question with Buckner is how much can he get to the QB in the NFL  when he is not occupying blocks. Would you take Calais Campbell top 5?? In my opinion he will not get enough pressure on QBs to offset not having a dynamic speed edge rusher. So he will not offer enough of an upgrade over a good 3-4 defensive end to ignore speed edge rusher olb. A 3-4 defensive end that gets 8 sacks and is a little better than average at pressuring QBs is more of a luxury in my opinion after a team already fronts a dynamic rush olb.

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Some players are not great rushers yet but the team believes the player has the raw skill to become an elite sack producer. Some players are better coming out while some like watt have more raw skill. Buckner may be as good of a rusher as Williams coming out. But then again I think Williams was seriously overrated. I said he would fall outside top5 and he did. No player will be drafted top 5 without the drafting team thinking he has double digit sack potential. 3-4 defensive ends free up mates. Being a slightly better pressuring QBs is not enough playmaking to justify top5. Question with Buckner is how much can he get to the QB in the NFL  when he is not occupying blocks. Would you take Calais Campbell top 5?? In my opinion he will not get enough pressure on QBs to offset not having a dynamic speed edge rusher. So he will not offer enough of an upgrade over a good 3-4 defensive end to ignore speed edge rusher olb. A 3-4 defensive end that gets 8 sacks and is a little better than average at pressuring QBs is more of a luxury in my opinion after a team already fronts a dynamic rush olb.

ok, so which edge rusher are you gonna take 6th overall over buckner? 

 

also, a freaking space eating, line crashing, 6'7" ball swatting, massive mountain of a man that can get EIGHT SACKS while playing a position where players ALMOST NEVER see that kind of production... is a luxury? no my friend, that is an elite, game changing defender. you float further into lala land with each post.

Edited February 8, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Winchester]

6 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

ok, so which edge rusher are you gonna take 6th overall over buckner? 

 

also, a freaking space eating, line crashing, 6'7" ball swatting, massive mountain of a man that can get EIGHT SACKS while playing a position where players ALMOST NEVER see that kind of production... is a luxury? no my friend, that is an elite, game changing defender. you float further into lala land with each post.

The average for the position is 4 so yeah. You are out there in left field if you think that compares to an elite edge rusher. And his line crashing will not be so prevalent in the NFL. He may be somewhat rare for the position but like I said it doesn't compare to a rare rush olb. Not even close!! Take jj watt away and there is not ONE 3-4 defensive end anybody would trade for the top10 rush olb or 4-3 rush defensive ends in the league.

[Clmraven]

18 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Some players are not great rushers yet but the team believes the player has the raw skill to become an elite sack producer. Some players are better coming out while some like watt have more raw skill. Buckner may be as good of a rusher as Williams coming out. But then again I think Williams was seriously overrated. I said he would fall outside top5 and he did. No player will be drafted top 5 without the drafting team thinking he has double digit sack potential. 3-4 defensive ends free up mates. Being a slightly better pressuring QBs is not enough playmaking to justify top5. Question with Buckner is how much can he get to the QB in the NFL  when he is not occupying blocks. Would you take Calais Campbell top 5?? In my opinion he will not get enough pressure on QBs to offset not having a dynamic speed edge rusher. So he will not offer enough of an upgrade over a good 3-4 defensive end to ignore speed edge rusher olb. A 3-4 defensive end that gets 8 sacks and is a little better than average at pressuring QBs is more of a luxury in my opinion after a team already fronts a dynamic rush olb.

First things first there is no speed rusher worth taking at 6 there's no Von Miller or Vic Beasley in this draft, secondly just because Buckner looks similar Campbell doesn't mean he is gonna have a career just like him, Campbell was a second rounder so logically Buckner is seen as a better player coming out. 

 

Also I'm not sure how you think 8 sacks is a little above average? I'd take 8 sacks from a DE every day of the week, and im really not sure why you think he can't get pressure on the QB, he was always around the QB with a ton of hurries this year and often finished with a sack. And I'm not sure why you're rambling about going in the top 5 cause we're picking at 6.

 

i think the only thing that will limit Buckner is how he's used, if we were to draft him and only use him to free up LBs then Pees should be fired.

[Winchester]

If he can not get to the QB what else would he be good for??

[allblackraven]

2 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

I don't rate him above Ramsey, personally. I really do like Spence a lot, though. Every time I watch him I am impressed with the speed at which he plays. He plays so fast and violent. 

Yeah, violent is the right description. I don't buy for a second that he is just a speed rusher. Dude is seriously good as it is and has room to improve. Whether he'll ever come close to Miller/Mack level, we are all about to find out in next few years. However, if he didn't mess up and played the entire college career at Ohio State, I'm pretty sure he would be heavily discussed as a top pick this year.

Players that you can even start comparing to NFL monsters don't grow on trees and aren't available in every class. Ravens are lucky they had really bad 2015 season and are now in a position to pick Spence. I hope they don't screw this chance and select DB whose real spot in the team nobody knows yet.

Edited February 8, 2016 by allblackraven
z

[Winchester]

The smarter posters are getting off work I see lol votes for Spence.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Winchester

[jazz1988]

12 minutes ago, Winchester said:

If he can not get to the QB what else would he be good for??

I personally haven't watch enough game of Buckner but according to Pro football focus he had 12 sack with the total of 68 total pressure. 

[jazz1988]

12 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

Yeah, violent is the right description. I don't buy for a second that he is just a speed rusher. Dude is seriously good as it is and has room to improve. Whether he'll ever come close to Miller/Mack level, we are all about to find out in next few years. However, if he didn't mess up and played the entire college career at Ohio State, I'm pretty sure he would be heavily discussed as a top pick this year.

Players that you can even start comparing to NFL monsters don't grow on trees and aren't available in every class. Ravens are lucky they had really bad 2015 season and are now in a position to pick Spence. I hope they don't screw this chance and select DB whose real spot in the team nobody knows yet.

I like Spence  but not sure if he's 6th overall worthy

[allblackraven]

5 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

I like Spence  but not sure if he's 6th overall worthy

That's always debatable but for the current Ravens team, I just don't see anybody else in this draft who is more worthy of a pick as high as #6

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I think Bosa is going to fall to us and we take him. 

I like Buckner a lot, but if Ramsey and Bosa are off the board (which I don't think happens) and Buckners there for us, or we can trade back grab an extra 2nd and 1st next year and still probably grab Spence I'm doing that all day. 

[L.A.Ravens]

No talk on ucla linebacker jack? To many mock drafts have him taken before 6 but with the injury that he had if he did drop to 6 how would you guys feel if the Ravens drafted him. He is really fast. I think he would be a star in this league but ucla did use him way to much and his body might not hold for 12yrs or so in the league but I think he would be good for as up to if he's good enough for us a 2nd contact but don't see him lasting long enough to finish it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

24 minutes ago, jazz1988 said:

I like Spence  but not sure if he's 6th overall worthy

I think by the time the pre draft process is done he might be in that conversation. 

Word is when he was at Ohio State he was viewed internally as better than Bosa. 

After combine and pro days, and after seeing what Von Miller and Ware did in the Super Bowl I have a feeling that the character concerns are going to fade some and he's going to rise to the top 10. 

Still hope we can trade back just a few spots and still get him. I'm starting to develop a man crush on him. Just think with him here around Suggs and Doom the sky is the limit with him. 

Learn a counter move or 2, and get better at converting that insane speed to power and you've got a monster. 

Plus I love a guy whose dealt with controversy/made mistakes and lost it all only to turn it around and get on the right path. He's learned what it means to lose the dream and he didn't fade away, he focused in and used it as motivation.

thats usually a big question mark for me with a lot of these kids who have always been the best and most talented - how will they deal with controversy or something not going their way. 

He's proven he deals with it the right way and that's a huge part in trusting a guys pro potential for me. 

[PurpleCity5]

27 minutes ago, L.A.Ravens said:

No talk on ucla linebacker jack? To many mock drafts have him taken before 6 but with the injury that he had if he did drop to 6 how would you guys feel if the Ravens drafted him. He is really fast. I think he would be a star in this league but ucla did use him way to much and his body might not hold for 12yrs or so in the league but I think he would be good for as up to if he's good enough for us a 2nd contact but don't see him lasting long enough to finish it.

There's just guys I'd rather have over him. I like Tunsil, Ramsey, Smith, Bosa, Stanley, and Buckner all better than Jack. Obviously one of them will end up at 6, I just think that they are all better options and I think most do as well.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, Winchester said:

The average for the position is 4 so yeah. You are out there in left field if you think that compares to an elite edge rusher. And his line crashing will not be so prevalent in the NFL. He may be somewhat rare for the position but like I said it doesn't compare to a rare rush olb. Not even close!! Take jj watt away and there is not ONE 3-4 defensive end anybody would trade for the top10 rush olb or 4-3 rush defensive ends in the league.

You sound like you really struggle to grasp how a front seven works. First of all you just said a de with 8 sacks is a luxury, then you talk about the average for the position... But buckner doesn't look average and we were never discussing the average. 

 

So let's stop changing numbers here to fit your silly arguments.. 8 sacks from a 34 DE is no luxury, it's an elite performance. And if your 34de gets 8 snacks then your olb is feeling the effects as the gameplan is shifted to another player. If you think getting suggs in prime matchups and making his later years much easier isnt important then you are flat out wrong. 

 

And once again, what rush olb do you suggest at 6th? Because unless you're talking about a reach on spence then You won't be finding one there. That's the end of this, you can't even stick to a hypothetical scenario that YOU created lol.

[Edgar]

1 hour ago, allblackraven said:

That's always debatable but for the current Ravens team, I just don't see anybody else in this draft who is more worthy of a pick as high as #6

I agree one hundred percent. Tremendous ceiling and opportunity for this guy, (Spence) to change games and inspire fear. That's what I want from our first round pick: a fear inducing,game changing all pro. Some other guys I like but most seem like nice pieces or hopeful projections.

incidentally,draft breakdowns latest mock has us taking Ezekiel Elliot(with Spence going to jags).

[ravensnation5220]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

its no secret that i like buckner. the way i look at it, he is a safe bet. if we are looking to be certain that we get a good player with this high pick, buckner i think is our guy, i think his floor is sort of like a cameron heyward on his absolute best day, and his ceiling is.. well he has none, sky is the limit for a guy as massive and athletic as him, his high character and great motor and work ethic make him look like his upside is very realistic. 

 

at 6th overall the last thing you want is a bust, but you also dont want a low impact guy, ideally you want a player with a high floor and high ceiling to ensure you get a quality starter but also have a chance to have an elite player, buckner perfectly fits that category, i dont see how ravens fans could argue against him.

I have caught up on a lot of film on this kid and i see where your comming from. Id be hard pressed to pass on a guy like that, hes a game wrecker and really impressed me with his tape. However i do think he has some flaws and im not truly convinced on his ceiling being as high as you say. On the tape i see him tend to stand too tall at times but thats understandable at 6'7 lol. His base needs to be wider at times and he can get thrown off his feet and leveled on double teams as well as turning his back on blocks, however i dont see any of those as setbacks as he can get coached up in that area.  Now my biggest question is whether or not he has good or great athleticism. He seems stiff on tape and its hard to tell if he can bend a corner. He just seems tight in his hips on film and i want to see the numbers he will put up at the combine because that will really show if he has any physical limitations. If he really does have great athleticism than all those combine numbers should be somewhere near the top in his position. Then ill be really sold on his upside. Still i wouldnt defer the idea of picking him at 6

[JoeyFlex5]

29 minutes ago, ravensnation5220 said:

I have caught up on a lot of film on this kid and i see where your comming from. Id be hard pressed to pass on a guy like that, hes a game wrecker and really impressed me with his tape. However i do think he has some flaws and im not truly convinced on his ceiling being as high as you say. On the tape i see him tend to stand too tall at times but thats understandable at 6'7 lol. His base needs to be wider at times and he can get thrown off his feet and leveled on double teams as well as turning his back on blocks, however i dont see any of those as setbacks as he can get coached up in that area.  Now my biggest question is whether or not he has good or great athleticism. He seems stiff on tape and its hard to tell if he can bend a corner. He just seems tight in his hips on film and i want to see the numbers he will put up at the combine because that will really show if he has any physical limitations. If he really does have great athleticism than all those combine numbers should be somewhere near the top in his position. Then ill be really sold on his upside. Still i wouldnt defer the idea of picking him at 6

All these flaws are present, but are more inconsistencies in his game than real problems. And if I trust anyone I. The top 10 to hit their ceiling on our team under our coaches, it's buckner. That's the kind of guy Clarence Brooks dreams of.

[ravensnation5220]

17 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

All these flaws are present, but are more inconsistencies in his game than real problems. And if I trust anyone I. The top 10 to hit their ceiling on our team under our coaches, it's buckner. That's the kind of guy Clarence Brooks dreams of.

Ya thats what i was kinda going for. He doesnt really show the inability to do something, he just lacks consistency at times and in shows in more areas than some. I think clarence will turn that kid into a monster, he still has room to grow in his frame as well, his lower half is still a little slim but hes a phenomenal prospect. Hes waves ahead of arik from last year, instant contributor for sure and could give us flexibility with our scheme cause he could probably rush against tackles with his length 

[ravefan52]

2 hours ago, Edgar said:

I agree one hundred percent. Tremendous ceiling and opportunity for this guy, (Spence) to change games and inspire fear. That's what I want from our first round pick: a fear inducing,game changing all pro. Some other guys I like but most seem like nice pieces or hopeful projections.

incidentally,draft breakdowns latest mock has us taking Ezekiel Elliot(with Spence going to jags).

It's definitely early to take Elliot, but I would love to have him here. I think he'd have a huge impact on our offense.

[PurpleCity5]

2 minutes ago, ravefan52 said:

It's definitely early to take Elliot, but I would love to have him here. I think he'd have a huge impact on our offense.

I think I would be pretty heated if we picked Elliot, I like him but I just can't ride with the idea. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[Underdogsontop!]

I like treadwell, but not at 6th in the 1st round. I'd rather keep Kamar Aiken around then draft treadwell at 6th overall. IMO 

[Winchester]

4 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You sound like you really struggle to grasp how a front seven works. First of all you just said a de with 8 sacks is a luxury, then you talk about the average for the position... But buckner doesn't look average and we were never discussing the average. 

 

So let's stop changing numbers here to fit your silly arguments.. 8 sacks from a 34 DE is no luxury, it's an elite performance. And if your 34de gets 8 snacks then your olb is feeling the effects as the gameplan is shifted to another player. If you think getting suggs in prime matchups and making his later years much easier isnt important then you are flat out wrong. 

 

And once again, what rush olb do you suggest at 6th? Because unless you're talking about a reach on spence then You won't be finding one there. That's the end of this, you can't even stick to a hypothetical scenario that YOU created lol.

You can not grasp what I am referring to. I would love to meet you in person!!!!!!! A 3-4 end that can get a little extra pressure over the slightly better than average 3-4 end is a luxury!! Because your edge rusher is your primary sack producers. If a team is that stacked at edge rushers that it can skip edge rusher for a 3-4 defensive end that pressures QBs better than the position average then yeah it is a luxury. A team can not worry about getting some extra heat from the 3-4 end before finding a dynamic edge rusher or rushers first. With declining edge rushers the ravens need a dynamic young speed rusher first before thinking hmmmm I wish I got more pressure from my 3-4 end when the edge rushers barely produced 10 sacks combined!! Unless that 3-4 end is jj watt or vlose to it. Oh and BTW dude,Suggs is finished!! You would have to put him outside jj watt to help him. And even then I bet any money he would not hit 5 sacks!! I will bet anybody $5000 to $500 he will not hit 6 sacks!!  Is that how you are thinking?? How can the ravens get Suggs in matchups he could actually win and make it seem he is worth the $$ he is counted against the cap. Is that your goal?? Get Suggs to the QB unobstructed??  You can get Suggs in "prime" matchups but he still has to win. When watt took the QB down 21 times his olbs barely combined for double digits. You can not handle anybody not agreeing with you on Buckner at #6. And being a little better at pressuring QBs than the average 3-4 end is not saying much. Most 3-4 defensive ends is playing that role because he is terrible at sacking the QB. Penetrators are not 3-4 defensive ends very often because it is a waste of the rare  talent to get to QBs.

 

As for the answer to your question. I would trade down and draft Spence that is if he is not going top10 anyways. If he runs 4.60 or better he could go top6 even. That is if going defense. I would draft Rankins or NKemdiche before Buckner in .05 seconds!! I'm actually a fan of trading for Mingo and roiding him up to 255-260!! (slang for billing him up with quality muscle)

[JoeyFlex5]

Lol. Ok Winchester. I give up. You are absolutely ridiculous. But continue with your wall of texts built out of conjecture and exaggerations and personal guarantees as if you know these guys on a first name basis lol. I guess You overheard some "peeps" talking about how rankins is a top 10 DE and buckner is a bust so we should all take your word for it.

[usmccharles]

1 hour ago, Winchester said:

Oh and BTW dude,Suggs is finished!! You would have to put him outside jj watt to help him. And even then I bet any money he would not hit 5 sacks!! I will bet anybody $5000 to $500 he will not hit 6 sacks!!  

 

 

This is absolutely one of the funniest things I have read on here....You seriously must say stuff for just shock value.  Your like Skip Bayless, just less informed. 

[Winchester]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

You sound like you really struggle to grasp how a front seven works. First of all you just said a de with 8 sacks is a luxury, then you talk about the average for the position... But buckner doesn't look average and we were never discussing the average. 

 

So let's stop changing numbers here to fit your silly arguments.. 8 sacks from a 34 DE is no luxury, it's an elite performance. And if your 34de gets 8 snacks then your olb is feeling the effects as the gameplan is shifted to another player. If you think getting suggs in prime matchups and making his later years much easier isnt important then you are flat out wrong. 

 

And once again, what rush olb do you suggest at 6th? Because unless you're talking about a reach on spence then You won't be finding one there. That's the end of this, you can't even stick to a hypothetical scenario that YOU created lol.

You can not grasp what I am referring to. I would love to meet you in person!!!!!!! A 3-4 end that can get a little extra pressure over the slightly better than average 3-4 end is a luxury!! Because your edge rusher is your primary sack producers. If a team is that stacked at edge rushers that it can skip edge rusher for a 3-4 defensive end that pressures QBs better than the position average then yeah it is a luxury. A team can not worry about getting some extra heat from the 3-4 end before finding a dynamic edge rusher or rushers first. With declining edge rushers the ravens need a dynamic young speed rusher first before thinking hmmmm I wish I got more pressure from my 3-4 end when the edge rushers barely produced 10 sacks combined!! Unless that 3-4 end is jj watt or vlose to it. Oh and BTW dude,Suggs is finished!! You would have to put him outside jj watt to help him. And even then I bet any money he would not hit 5 sacks!! I will bet anybody $5000 to $500 he will not hit 6 sacks!!  Is that how you are thinking?? How can the ravens get Suggs in matchups he could actually win and make it seem he is worth the $$ he is counted against the cap. Is that your goal?? Get Suggs to the QB unobstructed??  You can get Suggs in "prime" matchups but he still has to win. When watt took the QB down 21 times his olbs barely combined for double digits. You can not handle anybody not agreeing with you on Buckner at #6. And being a little better at pressuring QBs than the average 3-4 end is not saying much. Most 3-4 defensive ends is playing that role because he is terrible at sacking the QB. Penetrators are not 3-4 defensive ends very often because it is a waste of the rare  talent to get to QBs.

 

As for the answer to your question. I would trade down and draft Spence that is if he is not going top10 anyways. If he runs 4.60 or better he could go top6 even. That is if going defense. I would draft Rankins or NKemdiche before Buckner in .05 seconds!! I'm actually a fan of trading for Mingo and roiding him up to 255-260!! (slang for billing him up with quality muscle)

[Winchester]

14 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

This is absolutely one of the funniest things I have read on here....You seriously must say stuff for just shock value.  Your like Skip Bayless, just less informed. 

Would you like to test drive that statement?? So why dont you Tell us!! If 6 sacks is the funniest things you read on here then How many sacks is Suggs going to get at going on 35 coming off an Achilles?? If 6 is soooooo funny then you must predict at least twice that!! I will bookmark this and rub your nose in it when Suggs fails to eclipse 6 sacks.  You say you ran a 4.5 in highschool?? If you seriously think Suggs will be anything in the zip code of an impact player at his age coming off his injury I do not think you know ANYTHING about athletic performance. If you truly believe players carry peak athletic performance into mid 30s. That is what is funny!! Because allow me to INFORM you something. There is not a single renowned  trainer I know of that says Suggs will be a double digit sack producer or even close!!  And many who have saw him train for his comeback when he even trains think there is a chance he will retire. Let me guess you ran 4.50 in highschool then 4.55 at 35 yrs old correct??

[Winchester]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Lol. Ok Winchester. I give up. You are absolutely ridiculous. But continue with your wall of texts built out of conjecture and exaggerations and personal guarantees as if you know these guys on a first name basis lol. I guess You overheard some "peeps" talking about how rankins is a top 10 DE and buckner is a bust so we should all take your word for it.

No it is my opinion. Never said a bust just not a playmaker reminiscent of a top5 pick. I would love to meet up for drinks and apps and talk football. I will buy.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Winchester
Add on.

[usmccharles]

42 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Would you like to test drive that statement?? So why dont you Tell us!! If 6 sacks is the funniest things you read on here then How many sacks is Suggs going to get at going on 35 coming off an Achilles?? If 6 is soooooo funny then you must predict at least twice that!! I will bookmark this and rub your nose in it when Suggs fails to eclipse 6 sacks.  You say you ran a 4.5 in highschool?? If you seriously think Suggs will be anything in the zip code of an impact player at his age coming off his injury I do not think you know ANYTHING about athletic performance. If you truly believe players carry peak athletic performance into mid 30s. That is what is funny!! Because allow me to INFORM you something. There is not a single renowned  trainer I know of that says Suggs will be a double digit sack producer or even close!!  And many who have saw him train for his comeback when he even trains think there is a chance he will retire. Let me guess you ran 4.50 in highschool then 4.55 at 35 yrs old correct??

I wish I still ran a sub 5 second 40.  That has nothing to do with anything though. 

You make so many claims about the strangest stuff but never use info to back that up.  From Camps insane new workout routine that's going to catapult him to the best slot wr in the NFL to now every trainer saying Suggs is done.  Obviously the older a player gets he becomes less productive.  Suggs has basically had a year off to rehab and really think about this coming year.  Last time he tore his Achilles he came back too early and it was obvious, but still got a sack in that first game.  He has never been known to be a work out warrior so hopefully he takes a better approach this year.  I wont make a prediction on how many sacks he gets, but I wouldn't be shocked at all to see double digit.  But who knows, what if we draft someone and give him more rest throughout the season, we don't know.  I guess you could be right, I just highly disagree that if Suggs plays 16 games he only notches 5 sacks.  Also, just because he doesn't get double digit sacks doesn't mean he isn't effective.  Agree to disagree.

[JoeyFlex5]

5 hours ago, Winchester said:

No it is my opinion. Never said a bust just not a playmaker reminiscent of a top5 pick. I would love to meet up for drinks and apps and talk football. I will buy.

I would agree to but that sounds like the worst time ever lol. I can't bear people who don't know when to stop talking out off their rear end.

Edited February 9, 2016 by JoeyFlex5