Who should we take at #6?

[JoeyFlex5]

For me, I have a tough time getting on board with Bosa for the sole fact that if this kid is going to be something in the NFL it is going to be in a JJ Watt type style. My question is if he can be that type of player. JJ is massive but he is also super technical with his moves and quick with his hands. Bosa is not overly athletic he is just massive and heavy. I think he can be solid and disruptive but I am just not so sure he is this cant miss defensive prospect bc he could possibly be the best defensive player in college ball. I just feel like he is the mainstream pick that everyone assumes is just going to be good bc he was in college.

except that watt and bosa wouldnt even be a comparison if they didnt "look" similar(as in big cornfed edge defenders).

watt is a DE in a 3-4, bosa would almost certainly be at OLB in our 3-4, and bosa isnt just some raw bullrusher, the guy is very technically sound, he has great leverage, timing, footwork, violent hands and he knows how to use them, and he can diagnose what is going on in the backfield very well. he can stack his blocker and them benchpress him to disrupt the play, he can push his man back and then knife through the gap to make the stop, he is close to unstoppable in 1v1 situations and he likely wont see a down in the passing game where he only draws 1 blocker, teams simply wont try to run the ball his way, like they wont even bother, that will allow mosley and williams to squeeze their playing field down to one side of the line and let them feast.

i feel like the new mainstream thing to do is go against bosa. he isnt some flawless prospect, but you certainly dont seem to be giving him enough credit.

[Club Sec. 217 Seat 2]

except that watt and bosa wouldnt even be a comparison if they didnt "look" similar(as in big cornfed edge defenders).

watt is a DE in a 3-4, bosa would almost certainly be at OLB in our 3-4, and bosa isnt just some raw bullrusher, the guy is very technically sound, he has great leverage, timing, footwork, violent hands and he knows how to use them, and he can diagnose what is going on in the backfield very well. he can stack his blocker and them benchpress him to disrupt the play, he can push his man back and then knife through the gap to make the stop, he is close to unstoppable in 1v1 situations and he likely wont see a down in the passing game where he only draws 1 blocker, teams simply wont try to run the ball his way, like they wont even bother, that will allow mosley and williams to squeeze their playing field down to one side of the line and let them feast.

i feel like the new mainstream thing to do is go against bosa. he isnt some flawless prospect, but you certainly dont seem to be giving him enough credit.

The way you opened this up basically states why I don't want to take him at 6. I would say that he would have to be LIKE JJ Watt and I didn't think he could do that. I am very concerned about him being a 3-4 OLB I just don't think he is that athletically sound to be able to play that position at a high level in the NFL. It would almost be like Kruger, now I expect Bosa to be better than Kruger but still. While I not be giving him enough love you seem to be giving him way too much. I mean you are stating before he hasn't played a down in the NFL that teams wont even try to run at him, that's a little ridiculous at this time. I think he does have pass rushing skills other than a bull rush you are right he can work with his hands well. But I really don't see him as an OLB, he might be able to cover the flat but I don't see him dropping into coverage. It is not that I don't like Bosa, I just really don't think he is the home run that everyone seems to think he is. To me he is very disruptive in the run game but he does not jump off the page at me. I am looking for more of the speed pass rusher at an OLB position.

[Clmraven]

i feel like the new mainstream thing to do is go against bosa.

Ive noticed that too, people seem to be souring on him whether it's because we're less likely to get him at 6 or he's not a great fit for the 3-4. I still think we'd be stupid to not take him if he's there.

If he's not there, Buckner is still my guy people say it's not a need but if he turns into a double digit sack guy like I think he can, then why does it matter where the sacks come from?

[GrimCoconut]

This may be a bad idea for a first post, but here it goes: 

I'm not much of a football guy.  I am much of a numbers guy.  And the number really jumping out at me right now is Kevin White's $4.1million salary after being taken 7th overall last year.  (a WR going 7th compared to our pick at 6 seems like a decent comparison). 

Steve Smith made around $3.5 million last year.

Perriman:  $2.17 million-ish

Aiken:  $585,000 (for 900 yards?  quite the bargain)

So if we're talking about taking a WR at sixth overall, for that money it seems like he has to be a starter right away, Day 1, from OTAs on.   He has to be a guy that could force Steve Smith to the bench this year.  $4.1 million is a lot for our #3 or 4 guy. 

I don't think Treadwell is that guy.  I'm not even sure there is a guy we'd value at $4.1 million, but based on how our team is built (from a cap point of view) it's not likely to be a WR.  Not even Treadwell. 

I understand Perriman can't be considered a starter for certain; he hasn't played a game yet.  But our coaches and FO have seen a lot more of him than any WR in the draft.  He's less of a variable at this point. 

This is a great point because we are investing both serious cap cash & draft position into whoever we take. That said, Ozzie won't pass on a player for salary alone, but he will expect immediate dividends. 

[GrimCoconut]

Ive noticed that too, people seem to be souring on him whether it's because we're less likely to get him at 6 or he's not a great fit for the 3-4. I still think we'd be stupid to not take him if he's there.

If he's not there, Buckner is still my guy people say it's not a need but if he turns into a double digit sack guy like I think he can, then why does it matter where the sacks come from?

Yeah. People seem to cope with grief by rationalizing that the player we want won't be there and they're just not good anyway so it's no big deal. Lol, it's funny.

[Jaybirds]

This is a great point because we are investing both serious cap cash & draft position into whoever we take. That said, Ozzie won't pass on a player for salary alone, but he will expect immediate dividends. 

Well, it looks like there's a few positions that could naturally fall to us where $4.5 million isn't such a crazy number.  It looks like that figure is what we should expect for #6.  But it's not outrageous for a starting cornerback, safety, or left tackle.  Dumerville and Suggs were both around $5million this year, so OLB could be the budget-y pick for pass rusher...... Unless we cut Canty???

[rmw10]

Ive noticed that too, people seem to be souring on him whether it's because we're less likely to get him at 6 or he's not a great fit for the 3-4. I still think we'd be stupid to not take him if he's there.

If he's not there, Buckner is still my guy people say it's not a need but if he turns into a double digit sack guy like I think he can, then why does it matter where the sacks come from?

 

I don't see Buckner as a premier pass rusher, personally.  I see him as a guy that is going to be best against the run.  I think he's one that will push the pocket and get to the QB on occasion, but I just don't see a double digit sack guy.

[GrimCoconut]

I don't see Buckner as a premier pass rusher, personally. I see him as a guy that is going to be best against the run. I think he's one that will push the pocket and get to the QB on occasion, but I just don't see a double digit sack guy.

Maybe but his first step is something special.

[Jaybirds]

I don't see Buckner as a premier pass rusher, personally.  I see him as a guy that is going to be best against the run.  I think he's one that will push the pocket and get to the QB on occasion, but I just don't see a double digit sack

It seems like A'Shawn Robinson disrupts the pocket at least as much as Buckner, if not more.  If we're going to try to convert a guy into what we need, like Buckner, then I think Robinson is worth a look as well. 

[Italian Raven]

Nah I don't think that's a new mainstream.
People tend to agree with the media hype and get overly excited about a prospect since the beginning of the season; same for the early NCAA rankings. However as the season progresses you have time to watch a player closely and start to have a bigger picture.
I, for instance, have always admitted to be skeptical about his "top 3 prospect/baby JJ Watt" tag but I can't deny his insane punch, probably the best in a 4-3 DE I've ever seen. 
He has a very good rip, a good pad level, but:
1) The amount of hype toward his double-triple teams has been ridiculous
2) He doesn't always direct his hips in the QB's direction, which leads to some easy blocks where the T simply pushes him off the pass-rushing line.
3) Has to work better with his hands to prevent the Olineman from getting to his chest, because he doesn't possess an insane ability to escape with spins or lateral moved when engaged.

Does this mean I'm dumping him? Surely not, he even has the arm lenght and strenght to stab his man and control 2 gaps imo, but he's far from being a certainty, especially if the intent is to use him as a pure 3-4OLB.
 

[rmw10]

Maybe but his first step is something special.

 

It is.  I view him as a lesser Calais Campbell, which of course is not a bad thing at all.  There's no doubt that Buckner has value.  I like him a lot.  I just don't know if he's the best pick for this team.

[GrimCoconut]

It is. I view him as a lesser Calais Campbell, which of course is not a bad thing at all. There's no doubt that Buckner has value. I like him a lot. I just don't know if he's the best pick for this team.

I think he has the potential to be better than Campbell. Like everything else, his future depends on whether he gets good coaching. I personally think he can takeover games. That said, I'd certainly prefer other positions. I just can't deny how good I think he can be.

[Clmraven]

I don't see Buckner as a premier pass rusher, personally.  I see him as a guy that is going to be best against the run.  I think he's one that will push the pocket and get to the QB on occasion, but I just don't see a double digit sack guy.

I don't know, his pass rush has come a long way, I was a fan of his last year and thought he could be a really good against the run. But after this season of his you could argue he was just as good or even better against the pass. He was always around the QB and put up good numbers against NFL caliber linemen. Even if he doesn't put up Watt/Wilkerson type numbers I think anything close to someone like Calais Campbell (7-9 sacks a year) would be worth taking at #6

[rmw10]

I think he has the potential to be better than Campbell. Like everything else, his future depends on whether he gets good coaching. I personally think he can takeover games. That said, I'd certainly prefer other positions. I just can't deny how good I think he can be.

 

Yeah I'm not trying to knock the guy or anything.  I still think he's a top 10 pick, but I'm not sure if I see his value being significantly greater than that of a player at a position of need.  If we take him, then yeah, I'll be happy because I do think he can be a very good player.  I'm just not confident that he's the best pick for the Ravens.  Of course, that's all depending on who is available.

[Boddiebroadus]

So is nkemdiche 100% off the board. Even as a trade down target. Just watched some more tape on dude and wow his first step is insane. He has his hands on the oline before they even react to the snap. Besides his off the field issues. What other concerns does he have?

[Italian Raven]

I don't know, his pass rush has come a long way, I was a fan of his last year and thought he could be a really good against the run. But after this season of his you could argue he was just as good or even better against the pass. He was always around the QB and put up good numbers against NFL caliber linemen. Even if he doesn't put up Watt/Wilkerson type numbers I think anything close to someone like Calais Campbell (7-9 sacks a year) would be worth taking at #6

Even Wilkerson "only" has 7.4 sacks per year.

Also, Suh and Dareus recorded 10 just once in their careers. They average rispectively 6.1 and 7. 

[Clmraven]

Even Wilkerson "only" has 7.4 sacks per year.

Also, Suh and Dareus recorded 10 just once in their careers. They average rispectively 6.1 and 7.

Wilkerson's started a bit slow his first 2 years but has really been developing into a double digit sack guy.

[rmw10]

I don't know, his pass rush has come a long way, I was a fan of his last year and thought he could be a really good against the run. But after this season of his you could argue he was just as good or even better against the pass. He was always around the QB and put up good numbers against NFL caliber linemen. Even if he doesn't put up Watt/Wilkerson type numbers I think anything close to someone like Calais Campbell (7-9 sacks a year) would be worth taking at #6

 

Yeah don't get me wrong.  I like Buckner a lot.  My biggest issue is that I don't have him ranked significantly higher than the other options, many of which would represent actually filling a true need.  If we take him, I won't be mad or anything.  I recognize that we're likely going to be getting a really good player.  I just see other really good players that I think could have a greater impact for where the Ravens are right now.

[Clmraven]

Yeah don't get me wrong.  I like Buckner a lot.  My biggest issue is that I don't have him ranked significantly higher than the other options, many of which would represent actually filling a true need.  If we take him, I won't be mad or anything.  I recognize that we're likely going to be getting a really good player.  I just see other really good players that I think could have a greater impact for where the Ravens are right now.

Yeah, I think CB is an obvious huge need and if Bosa fell to us I'd have a hard time passing, Buckner is my favorite guy but I understand that there's others that could probably help more I wouldn't be disappointed if we ended up with Bosa Buckner or even VH3 even though everyone has seemed to turn on him.

[JoeyFlex5]

Ive noticed that too, people seem to be souring on him whether it's because we're less likely to get him at 6 or he's not a great fit for the 3-4. I still think we'd be stupid to not take him if he's there.

If he's not there, Buckner is still my guy people say it's not a need but if he turns into a double digit sack guy like I think he can, then why does it matter where the sacks come from?

I'll take buckner over bosa anyway lol. Tunsil is the only player I'd take over buckner

[JoeyFlex5]

So is nkemdiche 100% off the board. Even as a trade down target. Just watched some more tape on dude and wow his first step is insane. He has his hands on the oline before they even react to the snap. Besides his off the field issues. What other concerns does he have?

vision, he can't find the ball carrier and gets lost in the sauce so often. He also just goes brain dead if he doesn't win on first effort, he does things like turn his back to the blocker, stand straight up for no reason and get rocked onto his back. He just doesn't look like a pro honestly

[terrynjulia03]

Bosa is obviously #1, BUT he's not lasting to 6. Thats a pipe dream. Really the discussion in VH3, who got worked in the later half the season against better teams and the bowl, Ramsey who is "projected" as a beast FS. And Treadwell. Honestly after watching tape of Treadwell thats my pick. Sr is coming off injury and this is his last ride anyway. Perriman has never playeda NFL down so essentially a rookie that most experts said wasnt a 1dt rounder to begin with. And than you have Aiken who is a low 2 at best but better as a 3. Treadwell already plays mad and aggressive. Under Sr. They called him MegaQuon in college. Leagues moving to offense. And with Peabrain still as DC we gotta score 35+ a game. All hands on deck.

[GrimCoconut]

Buckner could very well go ahead of Bosa. I personally think he'll have a better combine than Bosa. We've seen this story before. I'm not saying Bosa is a bad player or even not as good as Buckner; rather, I just think teams will like him more.

That said, I think some of these names change after the combine.

[GrimCoconut]

Yeah I'm not trying to knock the guy or anything. I still think he's a top 10 pick, but I'm not sure if I see his value being significantly greater than that of a player at a position of need. If we take him, then yeah, I'll be happy because I do think he can be a very good player. I'm just not confident that he's the best pick for the Ravens. Of course, that's all depending on who is available.

Yeah. I understand. What I like about Buckner is I think he can function as a 4-3 end as well. That really gives the DC a lot of room for creativity. Imagine us rushing 4 with Buckner | Williams | Jernigan | Suggs. I like it. You can even throw in Urban on there or Za'Darius. Edited January 18, 2016 by GrimCoconut

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

and Vick never came back as Kelly began to opt for one pocket passer after another. Foles, sanchez, bradford, barkley, while not even attempting to pursue a running qb.

Dennis Dixon.

[52520Andrew]

Dennis Dixon.

A guy who he took off our practuce squad and didn't give any significant snaps to.

[Mt. Crushmore]

Why does no one mention Robert Nkemdiche?  He looks like a big time game changer to me.  Has he taken a that big of a hit because of his character issues?  I think he is a player that will definitely blow people away at the combine.  

 

Yep

[allblackraven]

OJ Howard returns for senior season, too:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000624996/article/oj-howard-announces-alabama-return-via-twitter

[allblackraven]

Jeremiah's mock 1.0. I must say, this one makes sense to me and I'd be content if it pans out like that:

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/mock-drafts/daniel-jeremiah/275602

 

1] Titans - Bosa

2] Browns - Goff

3] Chargers - Tunsil

4] Cowboys - Wentz

5] Jaguars - Buckner

6] Ravens - Ramsey

 

Interesting to me (and I fully agree) - Apple ranked ahead of both Alexander and Hargreaves.

[52520Andrew]

Grim is sad