A Humbling Reminder

[MKdave]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126327' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:09 PM']Personally, I still think that the Ravens have something left to prove. To be an "elite" team, you have to leave no question marks, and at this point, people definitely have qualms with the team. I realize that all this is arbitrary, but that is just my take.[/quote]

NO team has no question marks. Not even the Giants.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='MKdave' post='126337' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:12 PM']NO team has no question marks. Not even the Giants.[/quote]

Some have less than others. It's obviously a subjective thing, but you could make the argument that there actually aren't ANY elite teams in the NFL this years, sans maybe the Giants.

[MKdave]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126351' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:18 PM']Some have less than others. It's obviously a subjective thing, but you could make the argument that there actually aren't ANY elite teams in the NFL this years, sans maybe the Giants.[/quote]
I think 2 things about this:

Firstly, I believe there, by definition, have to be numerous elite teams every year, because of the magnitude of player turnover in the offseason. Every year there are new teams, and the best ones are the elite ones, you can't look at it from an all time perspective, IMO.

Secondly, I believe that the Giants were the cream of the NFL sans 'Burress shooting incident'. Now they're just one of the best teams, not the undisputed best.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='MKdave' post='126358' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:23 PM']Firstly, I believe there, by definition, have to be numerous elite teams every year, because of the magnitude of player turnover in the offseason. Every year there are new teams, and the best ones are the elite ones, you can't look at it from an all time perspective, IMO.[/quote]

I'll buy that, and by that standard, the Ravens are probably right on the cusp.

[MKdave]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126365' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:28 PM']I'll buy that, and by that standard, the Ravens are probably right on the cusp.[/quote]

I agree. With a good defensive display yesterday we could've been the team to beat. Especially given that the Giants are having a really hard time staying with the Eagles.

[Bullrush]

What planet are you guys from that you expect us to flat out dominate everybody and everything, every single down in every single game? What are we? Transformers? The one time we don't put up 1.500 yards on offense people start complaining. The one time our defense can't hit the QB on every single down people start complaining.

Newsflash: We played a tough team yesterday. Our guys couldn't get to Collins on every down? Well i guess now you know why they had more wins than any other team in football this season: It's because they don't suck. They can actually play. They know how to block. Let's not even consider the fact that our best and pretty much only pass rusher (Suggs) left the game after the first quarter. He still managed to get a sack. He still managed to beat Pro Bowl LT Roos for a sack, the guy hasn't allowed a sack in 16 games this season.

They completely outplayed us? In what area? If having more total yards on offense automatically means you win the game then the Saints would win the superbowl every year. Unfortunately they can't even make the playoffs. So please spare us this "they had more yards, they outperformed us" crap. We outplayed Tennessee in the regular season, but they made the plays when it really mattered. Using your logic i guess the Titans weren't elite when they beat us even though they were unbeaten.

Everytime we needed our offense to step up, they did. We left a lot of plays out there. A couple of huge plays (Clayton & Mason out of bounds on 2 bombs). The only negative thing i'll say is this: the playcalling was terrible. Way too conservative. This time it went well because the defense forced some turnovers, but had we lost this game it would've been on Cam, 100%. I already mentioned this yesterday, i hope somebody straightens him out during the week. To put Flacco in those 3rd and long situations everytime we get the ball on offense that's just unbelievable. Maybe Brian Billick stole his headset and called the plays from the booth, i don't know.

But that's about it. Don't trash our team, that's what you're doing when you say Tennessee completely outperformed us at everything. They did not. Completing those short throws is not exactly the hardest thing in the world. Anybody can do that. The bad thing about those short throws is that at some point you will make mistakes. Don't expect to complete those passes over and over again without turning the ball over at some point, especially not when you play an aggressive defense. At some point you will fumble, you will get sacked, you will make mistakes. And that's what happened yesterday. That's what "Bend but don't break" is all about. At some point your opponent will make mistakes, you just have to be patient. But i really don't want to hear anything about how they outperformed us or how we're not elite yet, that's just bull.

[Moderator 2]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126285' date='Jan 11 2009, 02:47 PM']I'm trying to play devil's advocate and ground a pretty ecstatic fan base. There aren't many threads similar to this one, so I think it's legitimate.

I don't get why I have to be subjected to criticism when I am doing nothing wrong.[/quote]
Maybe because you admitted to being a Steelers fan? The other posters don't forget that kind of stuff.

[PuRock]

[quote name='MKdave' post='126318' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:05 PM']That's unfair. We're in the last four of the playoffs. Your definition of elite must consist of an exceptionally small sample.
We've lost on great teams on contentious decisions, freak plays, and a couple of dominant displays by great players.

But every game we've won, (N. Inc yesterday) we've won comprehensively. We're better than our 11-5 record. We slaughtered a team with that record, we beat a team with a better record, the best in the league. I don't see how we can't be among the elite at this point in time.[/quote]

What is an elite team this year? There are 0. Giants are about to lose. There are not Patriots, no Colts, no Cowboys. There's a bunch of "on the rope" teams left. So we are as elite as any of the other teams this year. And that's good enough to win. One game at a time. Tennessee was a tough game as expected. But we did a lot of things right. Like not turning the ball over or recording a sack.

[MKdave]

[quote name='PuRock' post='126386' date='Jan 11 2009, 08:51 PM']What is an elite team this year? There are 0. Giants are about to lose. There are not Patriots, no Colts, no Cowboys. There's a bunch of "on the rope" teams left. So we are as elite as any of the other teams this year. And that's good enough to win. One game at a time. Tennessee was a tough game as expected. But we did a lot of things right. Like not turning the ball over or recording a sack.[/quote]

Why are you quoting me? That's pretty much what I was saying.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='PuRock' post='126386' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:51 PM']What is an elite team this year? There are 0. Giants are about to lose. There are not Patriots, no Colts, no Cowboys. There's a bunch of "on the rope" teams left. So we are as elite as any of the other teams this year. And that's good enough to win. One game at a time. Tennessee was a tough game as expected. But we did a lot of things right. Like not turning the ball over or recording a sack.[/quote]

That's what I've been saying; there isn't a true elite team this year. However, if you think that there HAS to be a few elite teams in any given season, we're probably on the verge of that status.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Moderator 2' post='126383' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:49 PM']Maybe because you admitted to being a Steelers fan? The other posters don't forget that kind of stuff.[/quote]

...what are you talking about?

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126241' date='Jan 11 2009, 02:13 PM']I hate to be the one to make this post, but I just want to keep us grounded. Although we left Nashville with the win, the Titans severely outplayed us in nearly every facet of the game, sans redzone efficiency. I know it was all for naught because we won, but the fact remains that they not only beat us statistically, but they were clearlly the more dominating team even from the naked eye.

Looking at [url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/media_library/Videos/Ravens_13_Titans_10_Game_Highlights.aspx"]this[/url] video, it's shocking how well the Tennessee offensive line picked up our blitzes, and as a result, how inefficient our entire defense became. Our traditional weaknesses shone through as the secondary could not cover average receivers without pressure on the quarterback.

Nearly every single time we rushed six, even with Sizzle in the game, the Titans' linemen were able to easily eat up five, with White/Johnson cutting the sixth blitzer. With absolutely no pressure, it was painful having to watch Collins sit back in an intact pocket, survey his options, and then hit one of his pretty bad receivers in stride. To be honest, their line was actually pushing back our guys...

Furthermore, our open field tackles were just atrocious. Both Fabian Washington and Bart Scott completely whiffed on Chris Johnson for huge gains, and guys like Ray and Suggs weren't able to finish off tackles.

I understand that this game was a rare occurrence, but it is nonetheless troubling. I also get that we were tired coming off of another short week, but that is just the way it goes in the playoffs. Fatigue is a valid justification, but the Titans were pretty banged up as well; we're going to need the guys to play at an even higher level should they want to go to the Super Bowl, because that's what championship teams do. Playing 19 straight contests, and four playoff games on the road, is no easy feat, but quite simply, the Ravens need to perform at a higher level.

Our offense was neither prolific nor abysmal, but if the Titans had been able to convert at a higher rate, we would have needed to see Flacco actually take charge. The rushing statistics don't concern me as McClain was battling an injury most of the game, and Willis just isn't very good/consistent. Overall, the offensive line did an adequate job, but they weren't comparable to their counterparts on the Tennessee sidelines.

I'm hoping that we get Pittsburgh next week because even though their line has improved, it still isn't very good. A San Diego victory would take us all the way over to California, to play in a warm, pass happy environment, against a team with another quick, elusive running back, and a good passer at the helm. As much as it hurts to say it, let's root for the Steelers today.[/quote]

The only thing that truly concerned me yesterday was our inability to generate consistent pressure.

Yes, our open field tackling was far below our standards. But I think Ray and crew have earned the benefit of the doubt to simply attribute it to fatigue, an off game or whatever excuse I feel like giving them. It was abnormal, not very likely to repeat itself over the next two games, should we make it that far.

Offensively, I agree, we were neither very effecient, or that bad. We played more or less as we expected to play against one of the very best defenses in their house. The key factor was that we did not turn the ball over.

Defensively, we gave up yards. But we do not play the game to put up glossy numbers (just ask Brees). We play the game to outscore our opponents. We were absolutely phenomenal when they had the ball on our side of the field, which is all that matters.

Bottom line is, this is who we are. This is Ravens football. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[STL Raven]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' post='126280' date='Jan 11 2009, 01:44 PM']Oh, I'll respond.... If you read my post, I didn't write in all caps to tell you to shut up, I wrote in all caps to point out that your analysis is moot because we won, and I'm pretty sure our coaches know A LOT more than you and will gameplan accordingly. I know you like to think of yourself as the voice of reason or whatever, but you're not because I can't recall you ever posting anything positive, thus seeing things from both sides.[/quote]
Just because we won doesn't make Ravnet's points "moot." And if you think for one minute that we can keep winning if we keep playing like that, I've got a bridge to sell you...

[PuRock]

[quote name='MKdave' post='126398' date='Jan 11 2009, 03:57 PM']Why are you quoting me? That's pretty much what I was saying.[/quote]

Just reinforcing your point Dave. You know I'm your #1 fan.

[Ravnet]

[quote]The one time we don't put up 1.500 yards on offense people start complaining.[/quote]
You see I like your argument, the problem is that it's completely invalid. We haven't impressed against a single good defense; we've had adequate games, but at some point, you have to figure that our offense is going to need to take control.

[quote]So please spare us this "they had more yards, they outperformed us" crap.[/quote]
Please quote my post where I stated that.

[quote]Using your logic i guess the Titans weren't elite when they beat us even though they were unbeaten.[/quote]

I don't believe they were elite.

[quote]Everytime we needed our offense to step up, they did. We left a lot of plays out there. A couple of huge plays (Clayton & Mason out of bounds on 2 bombs). The only negative thing i'll say is this: the playcalling was terrible. Way too conservative.[/quote]

The part that concerns me is that they didn't experience any success even when they were not conservative. In the redzone, Cam tries to call some exotic blocking packages on the run, and isolation routes on the pass, yet the plays still don't work out. I'll agree, though, that Cameron waits far too long to start passing on regular drives.
[quote]But that's about it. Don't trash our team, that's what you're doing when you say Tennessee completely outperformed us at everything. They did not. Completing those short throws is not exactly the hardest thing in the world. Anybody can do that.[/quote]
You'd think that a team with a rookie quarterback would utilize the slant then, because anyone can do it, right? I do seem to remember, though, that Flacco overthrew Mason on a quick slant which resulted in a batted down ball.

[quote]But i really don't want to hear anything about how they outperformed us or how we're not elite yet, that's just bull.[/quote]

If you believe that we're elite, then that's fine; I just disagree. However, I'm not sure how you can argue with the fact that the Titans outperformed us. I'm not talking statistically, I just haven't seen many, if any, teams sustain drives repeatedly on this defense. It wasn't just one drive either, Tennessee kept on passing the ball down our throats, and made the point that our great run defense doesn't mean anything if we can't get pressure.

[macbrak]

And our elite defense kept stealing easy points from them.

[Ravnet]

[quote]Yes, our open field tackling was far below our standards. But I think Ray and crew have earned the benefit of the doubt to simply attribute it to fatigue, an off game or whatever excuse I feel like giving them. It was abnormal, not very likely to repeat itself over the next two games, should we make it that far.[/quote]
The troubling part is that the guys are going to be even more tired next week.

[quote]Defensively, we gave up yards. But we do not play the game to put up glossy numbers (just ask Brees).[/quote]

I'd agree with you, but it's not just the statistics; most people who watched the game would agree that the Titans were the most dominating team. Although it's fine to have one off game, I'm just disturbed by the fact that our traditional problems (ie secondary, pass rush) are still present.

[MKdave]

[quote name='PuRock' post='126409' date='Jan 11 2009, 09:09 PM']Just reinforcing your point Dave. You know I'm your #1 fan.[/quote]

Ah, excellent.
I had momentary doubts about that. They're gone now.

[rvngirl]

I'm willing to bet if you canvas all 32 teams, you will not find one of them to be "elite."

WE may not be elite, but we can run with the best of them.

[macbrak]

Well his elite team just choked. Bye bye Eli!

[ravensfan2430]

i hate all of this elite team garbage..... what does being elite even mean? this is no defintition for an elite football team. The only thing that makes a team elite in my opinion is if the win the superbowl. im sure you would consider the 18-1 pats an elite team, but so what. they lost the only game that mattered last year.

the only thing that matters is the W at the end of the day. if we get 2 more W's then were are the ONLY elite team in the NFL.



As far as the yardage differential last game.... our guys have played a lot of games in a row all banged up..... the great teams find a way.

[flynismo]

[quote name='STL Raven' post='126406' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:07 PM']Just because we won doesn't make Ravnet's points "moot." And if you think for one minute that we can keep winning if we keep playing like that, I've got a bridge to sell you...[/quote]

Playing like what? Dominating them in the redzone defensively, and forcing three turnovers while giving up none? I'm in the market for a new bridge too....

[Ravnet]

[quote name='rvngirl' post='126427' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:25 PM']I'm willing to bet if you canvas all 32 teams, you will not find one of them to be "elite."

WE may not be elite, but we can run with the best of them.[/quote]

I'll agree with that and ravensfan2430's post.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='flynismo' post='126430' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:29 PM']Playing like what? Dominating them in the redzone defensively, and forcing three turnovers while giving up none? I'll take my chances...[/quote]

This is an assumption, but you just have to think that the Ravens will run into trouble if they give the other team as many opportunities again. Although the Ravens did force the turnovers themselves, the Titans left themselves exposed, and you can't count on redzone turnovers to win a game.

[macbrak]

I agree with Ravnet that we can only get by with the skin of our teeth so many times...unless the defense scores.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126435' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:31 PM']This is an assumption, but you just have to think that the Ravens will run into trouble if they give the other team as many opportunities again. Although the Ravens did force the turnovers themselves, the Titans left themselves exposed, and you can't count on redzone turnovers to win a game.[/quote]

I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything, I do realize that this game could have very easily ended up differently. I mean, I don't think that the gameplan was to let them murder us offensively to lull them into a false sense of security, then once they hit our 35 WHAM! Obviously we wanted to play as well on their side as we did on our side of the field.
But I also look at it like this. IMO, you're better off scoring on a short drive against us; say a drive of 6 plays or less. The longer you take to score, the more opportunites you are giving our defense to do what it does better than anyone else in the league. And that is to mug you, pick your pockets and win the game for us.
Move the ball in small chunks all you want. At your own risk.

[Ravnet]

[quote name='flynismo' post='126445' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:39 PM']I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything, I do realize that this game could have very easily ended up differently. I mean, I don't think that the gameplan was to let them murder us offensively to lull them into a false sense of security, then once they hit our 35 WHAM! Obviously we wanted to play as well on their side as we did on our side of the field.
But I also look at it like this. IMO, you're better off scoring on a short drive against us; say a drive of 6 plays or less. The longer you take to score, the more opportunites you are giving our defense to do what it does better than anyone else in the league. And that is to mug you, pick your pockets and win the game for us.
Move the ball in small chunks all you want. At your own risk.[/quote]

I'll agree with this, but you have to think that if they had just been more careful with the ball, it would've gotten very ugly. The reason our defense is great is because they confuse other teams and don't allow them to figure out our schemes; the Titans, though, were able to completely dissect our "exotic" packages. Taking care of the football is one thing, but completely exposing a team is another.

[Moderator 2]

[quote name='Ravnet' post='126402' date='Jan 11 2009, 04:01 PM']...what are you talking about?[/quote]
[url="http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/index.php?showtopic=6340&st=20&p=117944&#entry117944"]Gamethread[/url]

[macbrak]

Remember Ravnet in cyberspace no one can hear you <sarcasm></sarcasm>...

[Ravnet]

[quote name='Moderator 2' post='126548' date='Jan 11 2009, 05:22 PM'][url="http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/index.php?showtopic=6340&st=20&p=117944&#entry117944"]Gamethread[/url][/quote]

...

Alright, you either cannot detect sarcasm at all, or I'm very bad at getting my point across.

I've also admitted to being a ten year season ticket holder, which you either may not have ever gotten the chance to read, or just chose to think that I attended every Baltimore game, yet still supported the Steelers...