Next up: Pro-bowl, Free Agency, Draft and the Salary Cap

[rmcjacket23]

28 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

I personally dont think the cash matters at all. They've built a plan that includes spending it. 

Now, like i said, if they need it to fill a more pressing need like at MLB by signing a vet - ok. But, if they go into the season mostly as is, i dont think they'll care what a backup is making as long as the best player is starting and theyre comfortable the backup can step in and perform.

I mean, i doubt theyd make a decision based on cash. Like, hey hurst is gonna get our QB killed but we only have to pay him $800k! I know Monroe would give us a back up better than many starters so we dont miss a beat if Stanley gets hurt or isnt ready... but we cant pay a back $6m!

I know that's not exactly what youre saying.... i just dont think money has anything to do with it. They're comfortable spending it - heck we have plenty of open cap and cash to do whatever they need to - except make a huge trade for a high paid player. If they're planning something like that, fine, get rid of Monroe.

But, going into the season with either a lesser starting LT or no LT depth... and then having to stare at $13-15m in open cap/cash just sitting there - im gonna be ticked. Theres just no reason to, other than some hurt feelings maybe. Or that he didnt put the Ravens above his family. Which, fine, he's not going to be here next year anyways. But, admitting that you need the guy here to be the best team we possibly can be is the right thing to do.

And the fact that other NFL teams dont prioritize having a very capable LT is irrelevant imo. It's not because they dont want one, its because thats a luxury and one thats often impossible to afford if you want a well-rounded team. We happen to be in a position where we can easily afford it. Using the fact that no other team is keeping a back up of Monroe's caliber around just in case, isnt a good reason to get rid of him. Its a big advantage to know that if one of the most important positions goes down to injury we can keep right on rolling without missing a beat.

The excess cap space doesn't mean anything to me, because you can just roll it over. Its not a "use it or lose it" scenario. It can be used for in-season or next season extensions to guys like Williams and Wagner. I get that we usually spent up to the cap every year, and we probably will this year as well, but I don't think we need to spend it just for the sake of spending it.

If they cut Monroe, it will likely be because 1. Stanley wins the battle and/or he's about the same player as Monroe. Therefore, you go with the cheaper guy... and 2. they don't want to have somebody looking over Stanley's shoulder if he struggles. Stanley is the future LT of this franchise, and the idea of having him being worried that 1 or 2 bad weeks means he gets benched for Monroe isn't good for him short term or long term.

I wouldn't call depth at LT a luxury item... I'd call it an item nobody can find. Like I said, I'd have a tough time naming 25 respectable LTs in the entire league. Some teams don't even have a respectable starter, let alone depth there. In order for everybody to have a good backup, there would have to be a good 60+ respectable LTs in this league, and I don't even see half that many. That's why teams don't have one, because there aren't any. There's plenty of teams that could afford to pay a backup LT $3-5M a year if they wanted to with just the excess cap space they have now. That's not the issue. The issue is supply. 

He could still be traded for all we know. One camp injury to a significant tackle (particularly a contender), and I bet you'll start seeing 5th round pick offers for Monroe in August/September. Still plenty of time left to see what happens.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

4 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Is he helping this team achieve their goals though?  He's been on the trainer's table more than he's been on the field.  That, in conjunction with all of the other reported issues, don't paint him in a good light as far as staying on this team goes.

I get the desire for depth, but we can't treat Monroe like a sure thing that automatically makes this team better.  He's rarely on the field and he's been decent at best for us since we gave him that contract.  Remember that his inability to stay on the field is a big reason why our season played out (at least as far as the Flacco injury goes) as it did.

I'm still not entirely disagreeing with what you're saying.  I just think you need to realize it's not as cut and dry as him playing decently on the field so it makes no sense to cut him.  It makes a ton of sense if we choose to do so for many different reasons.

Remember that this wouldn't even be a discussion if he was a good player.  The fact that there even is a debate over whether he stays or goes says all it really needs to say.

Injuries he cant control... and as far as im concerned the rest is irrelevant. Could he get injured again? Sure. 

But is that any bigger a question than Stanley being a quality starting LT his rookie year? I dont think so. At least by having both, which are admittedly both question marks, you greatly increase the odds that at least one is a good option.

Pointing at that his injury issues are part of the reason why last season happened doesnt make sense as a reason to cut him... if the lesson learned was that having a question mark at your starting LT (whether injury or bc its an unproven rookie) without a good back up option is a mistake; then cutting Monroe to go with Stanley is proving you didnt learn the lesson. Youre putting an unproven rookie at LT with no viable back up.

And im not saying there arent some valid situations in which you would cut Monroe. I just dont think his prior injuries, not wanting to take a paycut (which Ngata refused for years while chronically injured), or not liking his public stance on marijuana are worthy or valid reasons to let him go. Unless its something that impacts play on the field (upgrading another position, Monroe not being healthy enough for the year, etc..) i dont and wont like it.

 

And Monroe is a good player. His only issue has been availability... which yes is a big issue but its not one you can project onto this coming season. When he played he was good and at times very good. And, even if you dont think he was very good hes at least the most proven option on the team. Stanley may prove better, but he hasnt yet.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

9 minutes ago, rmcjacket23 said:

The excess cap space doesn't mean anything to me, because you can just roll it over. Its not a "use it or lose it" scenario. It can be used for in-season or next season extensions to guys like Williams and Wagner. I get that we usually spent up to the cap every year, and we probably will this year as well, but I don't think we need to spend it just for the sake of spending it.

If they cut Monroe, it will likely be because 1. Stanley wins the battle and/or he's about the same player as Monroe. Therefore, you go with the cheaper guy... and 2. they don't want to have somebody looking over Stanley's shoulder if he struggles. Stanley is the future LT of this franchise, and the idea of having him being worried that 1 or 2 bad weeks means he gets benched for Monroe isn't good for him short term or long term.

I wouldn't call depth at LT a luxury item... I'd call it an item nobody can find. Like I said, I'd have a tough time naming 25 respectable LTs in the entire league. Some teams don't even have a respectable starter, let alone depth there. In order for everybody to have a good backup, there would have to be a good 60+ respectable LTs in this league, and I don't even see half that many. That's why teams don't have one, because there aren't any. There's plenty of teams that could afford to pay a backup LT $3-5M a year if they wanted to with just the excess cap space they have now. That's not the issue. The issue is supply. 

He could still be traded for all we know. One camp injury to a significant tackle (particularly a contender), and I bet you'll start seeing 5th round pick offers for Monroe in August/September. Still plenty of time left to see what happens.

The fact that most teams cant find even a decent starter, and we have an opportunity to have one as a backup imo is more an argument to keep him. Of course, if the trade offers come in as you suggest - sure I consider it.

But, thats not the case now which is what we're discussing. The comments i was referring to when this back and forth began were those saying it was a foregone conclusion and that the FO probably has their mind made up already to let him go.

All im saying if thats the case, the process is flawed. Until he's beaten out, or theres a more valuable alternative (acquiring a valuable pick in a trade, Stanley proves at least capable if not the better option, someone steps up as a steady inexpensive backup, Monroes injury is worse than expected and appears not ready to go for the season, the money is need to sign a vet a MLB, etc..) then i dont think you can have that decision made.

Right now hes the starter. Hes the best option at LT until proven otherwise. Hes on track to be healthy this coming year until known otherwise. Hes definitely one of the best 5 lineman on the team, and probably gives us the best back up LT in the league if Stanley wins the job.... and imo if youre starting a rookie you want a viable back up. If theres another, cheaper vet on the market and they cut Monroe with signing him in mind - ok.

All im saying is its irresponsible to say, we dont like monroe, hes been injured.... so we're cutting him regardless. If stanleys not ready and needs a year, oh well play him and cut monroe.

The outside stuff is just noise - if hes the best LT on the team he hsould be the starter. id like the depth, but if we can improve in other ways im on board with it... but if its cut just to cut, no.

[rmcjacket23]

11 minutes ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

The fact that most teams cant find even a decent starter, and we have an opportunity to have one as a backup imo is more an argument to keep him. Of course, if the trade offers come in as you suggest - sure I consider it.

But, thats not the case now which is what we're discussing. The comments i was referring to when this back and forth began were those saying it was a foregone conclusion and that the FO probably has their mind made up already to let him go.

All im saying if thats the case, the process is flawed. Until he's beaten out, or theres a more valuable alternative (acquiring a valuable pick in a trade, Stanley proves at least capable if not the better option, someone steps up as a steady inexpensive backup, Monroes injury is worse than expected and appears not ready to go for the season, the money is need to sign a vet a MLB, etc..) then i dont think you can have that decision made.

Right now hes the starter. Hes the best option at LT until proven otherwise. Hes on track to be healthy this coming year until known otherwise. Hes definitely one of the best 5 lineman on the team, and probably gives us the best back up LT in the league if Stanley wins the job.... and imo if youre starting a rookie you want a viable back up. If theres another, cheaper vet on the market and they cut Monroe with signing him in mind - ok.

All im saying is its irresponsible to say, we dont like monroe, hes been injured.... so we're cutting him regardless. If stanleys not ready and needs a year, oh well play him and cut monroe.

The outside stuff is just noise - if hes the best LT on the team he hsould be the starter. id like the depth, but if we can improve in other ways im on board with it... but if its cut just to cut, no.

Well, for starters, we and every other team in the league cut players for being injured every year. Not being reliable and not being able to get on the field consistently really isn't that much different than just not being that good, because in both scenarios, the team simply can't count on you.

We also know, because again, 32 NFL teams do this, is that teams will cut players in favor of guys they've drafted who are largely "unproven". There's numerous reasons this happens, including a teams desire to get an immediate ROI, not wanting to stunt the growth of a player, having the ideology of letting them "suffer in order to get better", etc.

As I said already... there's virtually no scenario where Monroe is a Raven in 2017. He can play great all year, and it won't matter. He will be gone. Knowing this... why wait? Where's the benefit to waiting? If we put Stanley at LG for 2016... isn't he still basically just a rookie LT in 2017? The only benefit there is he gets a year of experience at a position that is very different. He gets acclimated to "game speed", but not acclimated to pass blocking the best of the best pass rushers in the World on a snap by snap basis. There's only one way to prepare for that... do it live. In games, in real time. I'm all for letting him play Guard to get "up to speed". That doesn't do much harm, and its low risk. But that's a one year deal

So why wait? So what if Monroe is better than Stanley this year? Isn't that like the ultimately slap in the face to him if he's not?  

The elephant in the room here is the outlook for this team THIS YEAR. Depending on who you ask, expectations are either really high or really low. Me, I tend to be in the middle. If you believe what Ozzie says, his expectations are actually probably lower than most fans are, in which case, why not throw Stanley out there week 1 and let the growing pains happen? If I think the 2017 Ravens are going to be better than the 2016 Ravens (I think by a wide margin based on the "core" players we have and what we are trying to build), why do I want to wait until 2017 to watch Stanley struggle?

Again, just some considerations that I bet the FO looks at. 

[Winchester]

Do not forget Monroe at times has and can play dominant. If he and Ron Stanley play well, Monroe could concoct a web of trade interest and considerable value. He is under 30 and if he impresses substantially he would generate interest. 

[Jacquouille]

Best case scenario would probably have Monroe start at LT while letting Stanley learn as a backup. If Eugene plays well we can trade him for a draft pick and let Ronnie start the next season.

Again, I don't believe Stanley will be able to play guard so the best for him would be to serve as a back up gaining the needed strength.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Jacquouille

[rmw10]

1 hour ago, BOLDnPurPnBlacK said:

Injuries he cant control... and as far as im concerned the rest is irrelevant. Could he get injured again? Sure. 

But is that any bigger a question than Stanley being a quality starting LT his rookie year? I dont think so. At least by having both, which are admittedly both question marks, you greatly increase the odds that at least one is a good option.

Pointing at that his injury issues are part of the reason why last season happened doesnt make sense as a reason to cut him... if the lesson learned was that having a question mark at your starting LT (whether injury or bc its an unproven rookie) without a good back up option is a mistake; then cutting Monroe to go with Stanley is proving you didnt learn the lesson. Youre putting an unproven rookie at LT with no viable back up.

And im not saying there arent some valid situations in which you would cut Monroe. I just dont think his prior injuries, not wanting to take a paycut (which Ngata refused for years while chronically injured), or not liking his public stance on marijuana are worthy or valid reasons to let him go. Unless its something that impacts play on the field (upgrading another position, Monroe not being healthy enough for the year, etc..) i dont and wont like it.

 

And Monroe is a good player. His only issue has been availability... which yes is a big issue but its not one you can project onto this coming season. When he played he was good and at times very good. And, even if you dont think he was very good hes at least the most proven option on the team. Stanley may prove better, but he hasnt yet.

I'll make this my last post on the matter since it's starting to turn into a rehash and I don't care to go in circles.  Agree to disagree.  Good debate though.  I respect it...

I really couldn't care less if Monroe is here or not here come week 1.  If he's here, fine.  If he's gone, fine.  I think he's a decent (not good) player when healthy but that's a rarity it seems.  I don't care if he can control it or not.  When he's hurt as often as he is, it becomes a problem.  Consistently hurt is never a good thing.

Of course Stanley is a question mark but that doesn't automatically mean we need or even want Monroe.  Again, the problem is deeper than that.  You keep looking at it from an on field perspective which is all fine and dandy, but it's not as simple as that.

Prior injuries, especially the amount he's had, is absolutely a valid reason to let him go.  I'm still going a step further in saying that they aren't even the main reason why I think he could be gone.  It's not just not accepting a restructure.  It wasn't pay cut, mind you.  It was a restructure which would have actually given him more guaranteed money up front, and it has been reported as such.  It's been reported that the issues are deeper than that.  The denied restructure was reported to be one of only several issues, disagreements, what have you at the time the story broke.  We don't know the other things of course, but it's not too terribly difficult to read between the lines.  I think his stance for marijuana only paints him in a bad light.  I don't even disagree with him but a guy that is already on thin ice shouldn't be focusing so heavily on an outside cause that is starkly opposed to what everything the NFL stands for.

At the end of the day, I think signs are pointing to him finding himself out of Baltimore rather than staying.  We drafted 2 lineman and have added a veteran at G.  If Stanley was a real possibility at G, I don't think we'd be adding guys to a position that is already "settled" if the idea was to start Stanley out at G.  I think this summer will be telling.  If Stanley doesn't get many reps at G, I think we know Monroe's fate as I don't believe for 1 second that he's hanging around as a backup.

In summary, I don't even disagree with everything you're saying.  From a pure football standpoint, it makes sense to keep him.  This decision isn't solely about football though.  Sides in disarray have to part ways all the time.  It's a nature of business in general, and while the ultimate goal is to win football games, that doesn't weed out the other issues that are part of a business.

Edited May 26, 2016 by rmw10

[Deflated Football]

39 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Best case scenario would probably have Monroe start at LT while letting Stanley learn as a backup. If Eugene plays well we can trade him for a draft pick and let Ronnie start the next season.

Again, I don't believe Stanley will be able to play guard so the best for him would be to serve as a back up gaining the needed strength.

Can he play RT? He's good enough in run blocking, and when Monroe has a toothache and is sent to IR, Ronnie can swing over to the left. 

[Jacquouille]

11 minutes ago, Deflated Football said:

Can he play RT? He's good enough in run blocking, and when Monroe has a toothache and is sent to IR, Ronnie can swing over to the left. 

He definitely could! However as Flex said, Wagner is in a contract year and back in full shape so we should let him handle this spot, show him trust so we can secure our Right Side for the next 8 years with him. Stanley could swing between the two T spots in case, have, say 50/100 snaps in 2016 and then take off the next year.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Jacquouille

[Deflated Football]

29 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

He definitely could! However as Flex said, Wagner is in a contract year and back in full shape so we should let him handle this spot, show him trust so we can secure our Right Side for the next 8 years with him. Stanley could swing between the two T spots in case, have, say 50/100 snaps in 2016 and then take off the next year.

True, but I just don't know how I would feel if our number six overall pick sat on the bench.

[RavensDieHard21]

6 hours ago, Deflated Football said:

True, but I just don't know how I would feel if our number six overall pick sat on the bench.

He never would lol 

[Jacquouille]

Say all you want, that would be for the best. That's how the intelligent franchises do it. The bengals are giving Ogbuehi all the time he wants, while the Giants let Flowers get humiliated all season long.

[Somerset Ravens]

2 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

Say all you want, that would be for the best. That's how the intelligent franchises do it. The bengals are giving Ogbuehi all the time he wants, while the Giants let Flowers get humiliated all season long.

I would think intelligent franchises put their best players on the field. If Stanley earns the LT job in training camp it should  be his.

[usmccharles]

Just a thought, I could see Boldin going to NE sadly.

[Jacquouille]

9 minutes ago, Somerset Ravens said:

I would think intelligent franchises put their best players on the field. If Stanley earns the LT job in training camp it should  be his.

Okay there's this possibility. In that case okay, you can let him play. But I don't see him performing better than Eugène, who's a top10 LT when healthy imo.

[usmccharles]

9 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Okay there's this possibility. In that case okay, you can let him play. But I don't see him performing better than Eugène, who's a top10 LT when healthy imo.

,,,,,

[Edgar]

Start Stanley at LT this year. Give him all the snaps at that position straight away.

There is little sense in having him groomed to play guard only to be moved to tackle one series into the first game. 

Perhaps Monroe can win the LG battle. At least in this case we have experienced and capable players who can start when he goes down.

 

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Start Stanley at LT this year. Give him all the snaps at that position straight away.

There is little sense in having him groomed to play guard only to be moved to tackle one series into the first game. 

Perhaps Monroe can win the LG battle. At least in this case we have experienced and capable players who can start when he goes down.

 

Implying Monroe gets injured?

[Kinda_Dante]

2 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Just a thought, I could see Boldin going to NE sadly.

I don't think I could take that kind of heartbreak.

[usmccharles]

2 minutes ago, Kinda_Dante said:

I don't think I could take that kind of heartbreak.

Right.  But cant deny it makes perfect sense, old vet with diminished skills, most likely sign decently cheap and for a contender....no reason not to

[Kinda_Dante]

6 minutes ago, usmccharles said:

Right.  But cant deny it makes perfect sense, old vet with diminished skills, most likely sign decently cheap and for a contender....no reason not to

Yea he'd be an excellent weapon for Brady, I could totally see it but I don't want to.

[Jacquouille]

That is so true, but if Anquan scores against us this year in that damned jersey, I couldn't bear it.

[Cillmatic]

10 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

That is so true, but if Anquan scores against us this year in that damned jersey, I couldn't bear it.

Hell, I'd sign him just so that couldn't happen. 

[Deflated Football]

4 hours ago, usmccharles said:

Just a thought, I could see Boldin going to NE sadly.

no, no, no, NO

[ravensdan]

I don't see why it would be a big deal for Boldin to go to New England?  He would be a fourth option likely and I look at his tone here as largely. Disappointment. 

[OldToby]

I'm all for starting the best player at LT. If Monroe walks into training camp with a good attitude, and performs better than Stanley start him. Let Stanley sit back and watch the game, make sure he is studying, and if Monroe gets injured we'll have a player ready.

  I don't think Stanley will be able to dethrone Wagner at RT. Wagner had a Serious foot injury late in 2014, before the injury he was a top 10 tackle. He wasn't playing at 100% last year. I expect him to play at a much higher level now that he has had time to recover. I would rather find another capable starter at G, and let Stanley focus on Tackle in case an injury were to happen, and start him next year when Monroe is packing. 

[GrimCoconut]

It's going to be interesting who's the LT. We have two large investments into Stanley and Monroe. There's rumors that the Ravens are upset with Monroe, and we did just draft a franchise LT. I think it's clear Monroe isn't currently seen as a long-term solution to LT. I can see it play out both ways in that Monroe leaves or stays. The only reason I think he'll stay is I think the team will hope to get a ROI (return on investment) & hope to flip Monroe this year or next. I doubt he'll be our LT next year. 

The one issue is locker room politics in that you could upset Wagner by giving Stanley his job. Best guy plays and I'm all for that, but I don't know Wagner personally: however, he could become upset if he loses his job in a contract year. That'll cause hard feelings and is the kind of thing that could cause issues on your OL. 

[OldToby]

Before injury, Wagner played at a pro bowl level, so I hope he returns to that level of play. I think the big question is who do we plug in at Left Guard? Alex Lewis? He has been getting positive reports in OTAs.

Edited May 29, 2016 by OldToby

[Deflated Football]

11 hours ago, OldToby said:

Before injury, Wagner played at a pro bowl level, so I hope he returns to that level of play. I think the big question is who do we plug in at Left Guard? Alex Lewis? He has been get positive report in OTAs?

I believe so. In one of the more recent Mailbag episodes, either Mink or Downing said that Lewis could be a stud at LG because of how well he's doing in OTAs. Stanley-Lewis-Zuttah-Yanda-Wagner could be a great line for Flacco. Not sure where Monroe fits in though. Maybe a trade or just keep him as depth. I feel like his time here is just about up. I get the feeling that Harbaugh is getting wary of his demeanor. 

 

Quick edit, but wouldn't it be awesome if we drafted two starting offensive linemen in the same draft and they both turn out to be studs on the left side? I feel like we haven't done that before with two rookies. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Deflated Football

[Jacquouille]

According to the Sun, Stanley's strength issue was evident at OTA'S, he got pushed around by ZDS. So he will need time, and we will need Monroe until Stanley's matured.