2016 Edge Rusher thread

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, GrimCoconut said:

I love Floyd's speed and I never like the idea of using fit as an excuse against someone, but I just don't know if I like him here. I try to not get caught up on the details but I don't know many if any successful edge defenders that have such a height-weight combination. I'll support Floyd if we draft him because I trust the Ravens; however, Calhoun posted a very good 3-cone drill and he is plenty fast. I may have been wrong about Calhoun more than others, but we'll see. I think I was perhaps a bit too hard on him and his first step and perhaps didn't evaluate him enough. After watching him a bit more, I owe that guy (whoever said he had a good first step) an apology because Calhoun is a better, faster athlete than I originally believed. 

I'd prefer Calhoun to Floyd, personally. Not just scheme fit but as a whole, I like him [Calhoun] better. I just don't like my edge defenders taller than 6-3 unless they have the height-weight combination. Bosa is a bit of an exception but he tests very well athletically and he has much better height-weight combo.

Floyd reminds me of Barkevious Mingo a lot, in that he's so tall and lanky.  His size has never played well, especially in the tough AFC North.

[GrimCoconut]

Just now, rmw10 said:

Floyd reminds me of Barkevious Mingo a lot, in that he's so tall and lanky.  His size has never played well, especially in the tough AFC North.

Yeah, I do see a lot of Mingo in Floyd. I just don't think Floyd can become a good OLB for us. He's a guy where I just don't know where he fits. If he was able to be an ILB I'd say cool, go for it. I just don't like pass rushers above 6-4, especially if those guys are light as well. I haven't seen many if any successful guys that can do that at that height. I've seen DEs function at that height-weight combo, but they're also few and far between as well. 

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Floyd reminds me of Barkevious Mingo a lot, in that he's so tall and lanky.  His size has never played well, especially in the tough AFC North.

I see a high character aldon smith, personally. 

[GrimCoconut]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I see a high character aldon smith, personally. 

What's your rationale there? Someone else here said that, and Floyd is certainly disruptive in college but I worry he may not be able to continue such disruption in the NFL. Aldon Smith is also 6-4 and weighed much more than Floyd does even now, which means he has the height-weight combo to be successful. That's a very big difference. 

[rmw10]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I see a high character aldon smith, personally. 

Aldon Smith is much bigger.  My concerns with Floyd are that he's tall and lanky.  Not exactly great traits to take on OTs consistently.  I like him but I just can't help but put him in that Mingo realm.

[ravensdan]

22 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I love Floyd's speed and I never like the idea of using fit as an excuse against someone, but I just don't know if I like him here. I try to not get caught up on the details but I don't know many if any successful edge defenders that have such a height-weight combination. I'll support Floyd if we draft him because I trust the Ravens; however, Calhoun posted a very good 3-cone drill and he is plenty fast. I may have been wrong about Calhoun more than others, but we'll see. I think I was perhaps a bit too hard on him and his first step and perhaps didn't evaluate him enough. After watching him a bit more, I owe that guy (whoever said he had a good first step) an apology because Calhoun is a better, faster athlete than I originally believed. 

I'd prefer Calhoun to Floyd, personally. Not just scheme fit but as a whole, I like him [Calhoun] better. I just don't like my edge defenders taller than 6-3 unless they have the height-weight combination. Bosa is a bit of an exception but he tests very well athletically and he has much better height-weight combo.

What do you think Floyd really translates in to the pros?  Is he a true edge rusher?  Georgia didn't play him there for a reason. Is he more of an Ogletree?

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, ravensdan said:

What do you think Floyd really translates in to the pros?  Is he a true edge rusher?  Georgia didn't play him there for a reason. Is he more of an Ogletree?

That's my biggest problem with him.  I don't really know where he fits.  I was considering him in the forum mock but I just couldn't decide what to do with him.  If I had to guess, I'd think he'd be best in a 4-3 as a SAM rusher.

[52520Andrew]

Yeah Aldon Smith's combine weight was 263 vs. 244 for Floyd. Big difference

[allblackraven]

1 minute ago, 52520Andrew said:

Yeah Aldon Smith's combine weight was 263 vs. 244 for Floyd. Big difference

And that was Floyd after putting weight on for combine.

[JoeyFlex5]

7 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Aldon Smith is much bigger.  My concerns with Floyd are that he's tall and lanky.  Not exactly great traits to take on OTs consistently.  I like him but I just can't help but put him in that Mingo realm.

I can definitely understand that. There are edge rushers who win with speed and I know they're a rare breed but I could see Floyd being in that category, the guy has absolutely freakish burst and he is very instinctive and high iq, he is more of a football player than mingo who was more of a raw athlete

[rmw10]

It's tough because I like Floyd but I just can't find a spot for him.

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

What's your rationale there? Someone else here said that, and Floyd is certainly disruptive in college but I worry he may not be able to continue such disruption in the NFL. Aldon Smith is also 6-4 and weighed much more than Floyd does even now, which means he has the height-weight combo to be successful. That's a very big difference. 

Maybe i thought aldon Smith was skinnier than He is because he appears to be lanky on the field. I've never looked into his measurements, I typically only do that for college players and I haven't done the digging to make that comparison, just an eye test

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I can definitely understand that. There are edge rushers who win with speed and I know they're a rare breed but I could see Floyd being in that category, the guy has absolutely freakish burst and he is very instinctive and high iq, he is more of a football player than mingo who was more of a raw athlete

I just don't see him bending well enough to take on Ts consistently.  It's hard for a tall guy to get that low and underneath a T.  There's definitely a lot to like but he's one of the more interesting cases for me.  Usually you can find somewhere to put a guy but I'm honestly at a loss for him.

[GrimCoconut]

10 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

What do you think Floyd really translates in to the pros?  Is he a true edge rusher?  Georgia didn't play him there for a reason. Is he more of an Ogletree?

See rmw's post for my thoughts. I honestly don't know where he fits. 

[GrimCoconut]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Maybe i thought aldon Smith was skinnier than He is because he appears to be lanky on the field. I've never looked into his measurements, I typically only do that for college players and I haven't done the digging to make that comparison, just an eye test

I like to go back and compare Combine measurements when I like a prospect to see how other prospects developed.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I just don't see him bending well enough to take on Ts consistently.  It's hard for a tall guy to get that low and underneath a T.  There's definitely a lot to like but he's one of the more interesting cases for me.  Usually you can find somewhere to put a guy but I'm honestly at a loss for him.

I understand all of this. I had soured on Floyd for these reasons but I've watched a good bit of tape on him and I just kinda disregard the concerns because his tape is so good. I just think He will find a way to make an impact, if he wasn't so aware and smart on the field I would be concerned more but I just think He makes it work 

[JoeyFlex5]

2 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I like to go back and compare Combine measurements when I like a prospect to see how other prospects developed.

I do sometimes, sometimes I don't lol. sometimes I just don't get around to digging into other players

[Edgar]

Something I do like about Floyd when I watch him is that I feel like I'm watching a football player and not just an athlete. If he could put on weight and really use those long arms he could be a very good linebacker.

He can certainly collapse the pocket quickly and win the edge before he gets carried past the QB, unlike a lot of prospects in this draft.

i don't like him as much as Noah Spence that's for sure but I like him.

[rmw10]

2 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I understand all of this. I had soured on Floyd for these reasons but I've watched a good bit of tape on him and I just kinda disregard the concerns because his tape is so good. I just think He will find a way to make an impact, if he wasn't so aware and smart on the field I would be concerned more but I just think He makes it work 

I don't think you can disregard concerns like that, though.  Remember that he's now facing the best of the best.  Lack of strength and struggles with bend are almost death wishes for edge rushers.  I think he can make an impact but I struggle seeing it in anything larger than a situational role.  Again, there's a lot to like, but there are some heavy concerns as well.

[Clmraven]

31 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

I love Floyd's speed and I never like the idea of using fit as an excuse against someone, but I just don't know if I like him here. I try to not get caught up on the details but I don't know many if any successful edge defenders that have such a height-weight combination. I'll support Floyd if we draft him because I trust the Ravens; however, Calhoun posted a very good 3-cone drill and he is plenty fast. I may have been wrong about Calhoun more than others, but we'll see. I think I was perhaps a bit too hard on him and his first step and perhaps didn't evaluate him enough. After watching him a bit more, I owe that guy (whoever said he had a good first step) an apology because Calhoun is a better, faster athlete than I originally believed. 

I'd prefer Calhoun to Floyd, personally. Not just scheme fit but as a whole, I like him [Calhoun] better. I just don't like my edge defenders taller than 6-3 unless they have the height-weight combination. Bosa is a bit of an exception but he tests very well athletically and he has much better height-weight combo.

I'm in the same boat, I like him alright but I'm not sure if he fits. The only height weight combo I can think of off the top of my head that was successful as a pass rusher was Jason Taylor but he was a 4-3 DE, and these lighter pass rusher rarely turn into quality players, I really can't think of anyone recently who played edge rusher at under 240lbs in college who made a difference in the pros.

 

glad to see people coming around on Calhoun too, I think he'd be a really good complementary pass rusher, if we could grab Bosa then trade back into the mid to late second round with our 3rd rounder for Calhoun I'd be very happy.

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

I don't think you can disregard concerns like that, though.  Remember that he's now facing the best of the best.  Lack of strength and struggles with bend are almost death wishes for edge rushers.  I think he can make an impact but I struggle seeing it in anything larger than a situational role.  Again, there's a lot to like, but there are some heavy concerns as well.

I'm not sure he's a pure edge rusher though, because he's very solid in coverage and you can see room for improvement still. Everyone was so high on jaylon Smith but I personally see a lot of similarities in Floyd's game, he is less of a run defender but There looks to be very little drop off in coverage ability and his edge rush and blitz game are through the roof compared to him. I get a lot of flack for saying I see a similar and possibly better player in Floyd but I don't really care and I'll keep saying it lol. He could be a new hybrid type of coverage and rushing OLB who basically plays in space as much as possible and he could get his hands on the ball and the qb quite a bit.

[RaineV1]

Actually, the best Floyd comparison I've seen is to Jason Taylor, who is about the same size. And we saw what he was able to do.

[Clmraven]

9 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

Actually, the best Floyd comparison I've seen is to Jason Taylor, who is about the same size. And we saw what he was able to do.

Yeah they are almost identical sizes, and I really like Floyd but he could also compare to Dion Jordan, and we saw what he was able to do.

 

would definitely take Floyd in the 2nd if he fell though.

[RaineV1]

1 hour ago, Clmraven said:

Yeah they are almost identical sizes, and I really like Floyd but he could also compare to Dion Jordan, and we saw what he was able to do.

 

would definitely take Floyd in the 2nd if he fell though.

Yeah, in the 2nd round he'd be a no brainer. I'd consider taking him anywhere past pick 14 (in the case of a tradeback).

[ravensdan]

11 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

Actually, the best Floyd comparison I've seen is to Jason Taylor, who is about the same size. And we saw what he was able to do.

You know who I could see taking and utilizing Floyd to his max. Rex and the Bills. 

[RaineV1]

11 minutes ago, ravensdan said:

You know who I could see taking and utilizing Floyd to his max. Rex and the Bills. 

He would definitely fit Rex's style of defense. Though I think the Falcons will take him before the Bills get the chance to. They badly need more athletic players in their front 7, whether they use him as a DE or OLB.

[Italian Raven]

Ok i just finished to watch few Floyd tapes.
Some days ago I did the same with Fackrell and made some GIFs out of some specific plays in order to highlight his best skills and to make a case for him being on the same tier of the Georgia prospect.  
I don't know whether Floyd pure athleticism or his big name college helped to improve his 'hype' most, but I find unjustified the silence surrounding the Utah State OLB.
Floyd is faster off the LOS.. I mean, he's easily the fastest (and with probably the most explosive first step) OLB in this class; that definitely helped his versatility, allowing him to occasionally play with his hands in the dirt. This said, given the lack of functional strenght I doubt he will be able to do the same at the next level. Fackrell on the other hand needs some time and enough ground to take off and translate that speed into power. That's why I think they are both better suited as stand-up 3-4 OLBs or as MikeLBs.  
 
Just like for Shaq Lawson I didn't want to give you guys a GIF-headache but we're talking bout prospects and I don't see a better way to stressing someones' thought if not providing actual proofs.
So:
-here's showcased his ability to be the first putting his hands on the opponent, mantaining a good leverage and direction toward the QB.
He could've had a strip had he started his QB pursue 0.1 seconds earlier, but he still got a hit and forced an incompletion.
(If the GIFS were slower you'd appreciate them more but I'm no internet master..that's all I could do :D)


Here he was very quick off the LOS and even if his pass-rushing lane was quite wide he showed a good body control and wasn't pushed off the play but continued to pursue the QB.. That reminded me of Bosa's probably biggest weakness.. he gets too easily neutralized when tries to get a too aggressive angle. This will never happened to Fackrell (careful, I'm not saying that he's better than Bosa.. just that while his speed rush, helped by his hips, is more effective around the edge).
 

Pretty similar play; sudden acceleration and good finish. 


Here again, very quick get off, dip and pursue. 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Italian Raven

[Italian Raven]

We could go on an entire day highlighting his effectiveness as a speed-rusher.
He just wasn't asked to do so as much as Floyd. For most of the times he had to drop in zone coverage, which didn't really help him develope a good set of moves other than counters.
However, here he he blitzes as a MLB and displays good hands strenght by bull-jerking the C

...and he's able to improvise; here he takes few inside steps and makes an effective spin to hit the gap. He's dragged by the collar (which shoul've drown a flag) but he created a play thank to his instinct.

He uses his hands pretty well and naturally.


Floyd is not known for being a good tackler, and even though Kyler might not be the very best either he's solid when reads the play, disengages from blocks and finishes. He does his job without getting overly aggressive and giving up big plays.

 

What I mean with this is that I don't see such a talent gap between the two players to have me saying "there's 2-3 rounds between them".
Floyd is considered a top 20, early second rounder at very best.. and even if he's a crazy athlet he does have some inconsistencies and limits.
Fackrell has a big ground imo. Measurables? Check. Edge speed/bending? check. Coverage? check. Awarness, can he read plays? Check. Tackling? Check. He does have all the tools to be a solid player and develope in something more.
His only cons are his age: he'll be 25 when the season begins; the lack of a pure bull-rush (well.. same problem of Floyd, but at least he has stronger hands); that he's partially unproven since he was under-utilized as blitzer imo.. the Georgia schedule is also not much harder than Utah St's so I can't say he had an easier life.

Let me know what you guys think.

[GrimCoconut]

I like Fackrell more than Floyd, personally. The issue I have with Fackrell is he won't be able to play in a 3-point stance from day one, but I agree that he should fit well as a 3-4 standing OLB. I think that is his best role, but he could develop into more than that with some time and polish and weight room sessions. 

[JoeyFlex5]

Fackrell has really grown on me. If we took him round 2 I'd be excited. Even more so if we traded back into the mid to late 2nd for him.