2016 Edge Rusher thread

[ALPHA]

11 hours ago, gabefergy said:

Okay, we have a difference of opinion in how to gauge effort. That's fine. He's about 1000x more athletic than Hageman. He's more athletic and has better size than Donald, but he isn't as refined as Donald either. I don't really have a great comp for him, Sheldon Richardson is probably the closest I can think of in terms of explosive movement skills.

He's got that freaky burst but I'll be very surprised if he can match Donalds 10 yard split and 40

[RaineV1]

16 hours ago, ngatainmyhouse said:

Red flags aside... who is the better prospect Buckner or Spence?

I'm going with Buckner. I think he'll be better from day 1 and have higher potential. He's not quite on Watt's level, but Buckner has the chance to be one of the best 3-4 linemen in the league. Maybe even the 2nd best.

[Valid1]

If we're ignoring red flags I don't see a real argument for Buckner as the superior prospect.  Spences speed and power put it in the caliber rusher as the best in the league. And honestly I think we should totally ignore the drug concerns for Spence.  Ecstasy it is a party drug that doesn't have the routine ritualized use of marijuana or the addictive properties of something like Coke. He was just a kid having fun in college.  I don't see that projecting to be any real reasonable concerns as a pro .

[JoeyFlex5]

25 minutes ago, Valid1 said:

If we're ignoring red flags I don't see a real argument for Buckner as the superior prospect.  Spences speed and power put it in the caliber rusher as the best in the league. And honestly I think we should totally ignore the drug concerns for Spence.  Ecstasy it is a party drug that doesn't have the routine ritualized use of marijuana or the addictive properties of something like Coke. He was just a kid having fun in college.  I don't see that projecting to be any real reasonable concerns as a pro .

What power are you referring to though? The kid has a lot of work to do before he can be considered any type of powerful. He gets washed when engaged with blockers and can only win on plays when he is able to keep hands off of him completely. 

 

Btw I respect that someone understands the difference between a party drug and a everyday abuse drug. Most on the boards seem to think ecstasy is on par with crack lol

[gabefergy]

6 hours ago, RaineV1 said:

I'm going with Buckner. I think he'll be better from day 1 and have higher potential. He's not quite on Watt's level, but Buckner has the chance to be one of the best 3-4 linemen in the league. Maybe even the 2nd best.

Calais Campbell is an obvious and apt comparison imo. He does a lot of the same things Campbell does. 

[Clmraven]

1 hour ago, Valid1 said:

If we're ignoring red flags I don't see a real argument for Buckner as the superior prospect.  Spences speed and power put it in the caliber rusher as the best in the league. And honestly I think we should totally ignore the drug concerns for Spence.  Ecstasy it is a party drug that doesn't have the routine ritualized use of marijuana or the addictive properties of something like Coke. He was just a kid having fun in college.  I don't see that projecting to be any real reasonable concerns as a pro .

If we're ignoring red flags I still see Buckner as a better prospects, I like Spence but he still has a lot of red flags for me. I don't really see the speed and power your talking about he's got above average speed but he lacks power IMO. And I hate to use production as an excuse for a prospect but he didn't exactly set the world on fire even with the lower competition he faced 11.5 sacks isn't terrible but when you look at guys like Suggs and Von Miller coming out, they absolutely dominated, they truly warranted top 10 status and right now I don't see that with Spence I'd love it if we traded back into the first round for him or if he fell to the second though.

[JoeyFlex5]

15 minutes ago, Clmraven said:

If we're ignoring red flags I still see Buckner as a better prospects, I like Spence but he still has a lot of red flags for me. I don't really see the speed and power your talking about he's got above average speed but he lacks power IMO. And I hate to use production as an excuse for a prospect but he didn't exactly set the world on fire even with the lower competition he faced 11.5 sacks isn't terrible but when you look at guys like Suggs and Von Miller coming out, they absolutely dominated, they truly warranted top 10 status and right now I don't see that with Spence I'd love it if we traded back into the first round for him or if he fell to the second though.

he also did play with a supporting cast of nobodies lol. watching his film you can just see how hard that made life for him, he actually played better vs B1G competition because he had SOMETHING around him to help him out. you can see how losing a running-mate affected joey bosa as well. its rare to see one edge rusher be able to blow all competition away with no help whatsoever. 11.5 sacks when you can see on tape the entire blocking scheme is dedicated to stopping him, is impressive. 

 

and this is coming from an avid buckner fan

Edited February 10, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Valid1]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

What power are you referring to though? The kid has a lot of work to do before he can be considered any type of powerful. He gets washed when engaged with blockers and can only win on plays when he is able to keep hands off of him completely. 

 

Btw I respect that someone understands the difference between a party drug and a everyday abuse drug. Most on the boards seem to think ecstasy is on par with crack lol

 To be sure Spence's main attribute is speed. He's slippery with great pursuit. Actually that's probably my main problem with him. He doesn't pace himself and can run a little low on gas in the 4th quarter. His power shows up in brief flashes with punch and on the rare occasion a tackle squares him up. He also got great reportrs of getting to RBs and pushing through blocks at the senior bowl which tells me that the power part of his game may be more undeveloped than non existent. Hopefully playing next to guys like Suggs and Doom would teach him how to use the strength I think he has.

[Clmraven]

44 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

he also did play with a supporting cast of nobodies lol. watching his film you can just see how hard that made life for him, he actually played better vs B1G competition because he had SOMETHING around him to help him out. you can see how losing a running-mate affected joey bosa as well. its rare to see one edge rusher be able to blow all competition away with no help whatsoever. 11.5 sacks when you can see on tape the entire blocking scheme is dedicated to stopping him, is impressive. 

 

and this is coming from an avid buckner fan

Thats true, Bosa had more help around him than almost anyone in recent memory with Michael Bennett, Adolphus Washington, Darron Lee, Hubbard, Lewis etc and a great secondary, but my whole point of comparing Spence to other top ten guys like Suggs and Miller was that they didn't have really any help either Suggs had 24 sacks and Miller had 17 in 2009 with no great help around them.

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, Valid1 said:

 To be sure Spence's main attribute is speed. He's slippery with great pursuit. Actually that's probably my main problem with him. He doesn't pace himself and can run a little low on gas in the 4th quarter. His power shows up in brief flashes with punch and on the rare occasion a tackle squares him up. He also got great reportrs of getting to RBs and pushing through blocks at the senior bowl which tells me that the power part of his game may be more undeveloped than non existent. Hopefully playing next to guys like Suggs and Doom would teach him how to use the strength I think he has.

I fully agree with all this I'm not calling Spence weak just saying that right now he has no power to his game so it's hard to tout him for his power

[outkast1]

7 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I fully agree with all this I'm not calling Spence weak just saying that right now he has no power to his game so it's hard to tout him for his power

Spence has all the tools he needs , unlike the one trick pony Joey Bosa !

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, outkast1 said:

Spence has all the tools he needs , unlike the one trick pony Joey Bosa !

right because having a great first step, nimble feet, hand usage of an NFL veteran, incredible brute strength, great backfield vision, stack and shed technique, violent yet refined pass rush moves, strong swipes to keep blockers hands off, strong rips to create pass rushing lanes on the inside, and the ability to play 34OLB, 34DE, 43DE, and 43DT, equates to a one trick pony, unlike spence who has a great first step and burst and a high effort play style... good analysis man

[gabefergy]

1 hour ago, outkast1 said:

Spence has all the tools he needs , unlike the one trick pony Joey Bosa !

This is so much wrong

[Valid1]

9 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I fully agree with all this I'm not calling Spence weak just saying that right now he has no power to his game so it's hard to tout him for his power

That's totally fair. I'm just really excited about the guy. It's rare for someone to even show the potential to play up to the caliber of a Miller or Mack.

 

For me the only pass rush options at 6 are Spence and Bosa. Spence is a brilliant scheme fit with a sky high ceiling but Bosa is Amari Cooper levels of safe pick. 

[JoeyFlex5]

What round does Joe schobert go? I think the 2 most natural scheme fits in This class are schobert and Spence. Spence for obvious reasons, and schobert because he does it all. Great short range coverage and great movements and reads in space suggests he can zone drop very often, he has great edge rushing technique and burst off the line, and seems to do everything very smart and efficient. He could stand to pack on a few pounds but man is he underrated as a 34OLB. I'd take him one the 3rd without question. He's the kind of mid round guy with a high floor and low ceiling that ends up a full time starter and key player for us after some learning and bulking up.

[Clmraven]

35 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

What round does Joe schobert go? I think the 2 most natural scheme fits in This class are schobert and Spence. Spence for obvious reasons, and schobert because he does it all. Great short range coverage and great movements and reads in space suggests he can zone drop very often, he has great edge rushing technique and burst off the line, and seems to do everything very smart and efficient. He could stand to pack on a few pounds but man is he underrated as a 34OLB. I'd take him one the 3rd without question. He's the kind of mid round guy with a high floor and low ceiling that ends up a full time starter and key player for us after some learning and bulking up.

He's one of my favs aswell plus I love that he was a walk on, usually means they have a good work ethic, I still think depending on the combine, we could grab him with one of our 4th rounders, also he's bulked up to 247lbs already, depending on what we'd ask him to do I think he's good where he's at. 

[RaineV1]

1 hour ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

What round does Joe schobert go? I think the 2 most natural scheme fits in This class are schobert and Spence. Spence for obvious reasons, and schobert because he does it all. Great short range coverage and great movements and reads in space suggests he can zone drop very often, he has great edge rushing technique and burst off the line, and seems to do everything very smart and efficient. He could stand to pack on a few pounds but man is he underrated as a 34OLB. I'd take him one the 3rd without question. He's the kind of mid round guy with a high floor and low ceiling that ends up a full time starter and key player for us after some learning and bulking up.

Probably the 4th round. I really like him as a fit for the Ravens.

[Jacquouille]

3 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

What round does Joe schobert go? I think the 2 most natural scheme fits in This class are schobert and Spence. Spence for obvious reasons, and schobert because he does it all. Great short range coverage and great movements and reads in space suggests he can zone drop very often, he has great edge rushing technique and burst off the line, and seems to do everything very smart and efficient. He could stand to pack on a few pounds but man is he underrated as a 34OLB. I'd take him one the 3rd without question. He's the kind of mid round guy with a high floor and low ceiling that ends up a full time starter and key player for us after some learning and bulking up.

1000 times agreed that Schobert is a good fit. He's got good vision and versatility, and nice moves as a rusher. I see him as a 4th round guy.

I also like Fackrell, he's got this impressive bully factor, seems unstoppable at times.

Maybe Correa could fit, but I'm not a huge fan. 

[JoeyFlex5]

Schobert really is a guy I see as a career raven, he just seems like that kind of player through and theough, blue collar guy who plays hard and smart and comes here as a mid rounder and I think He becomes a starter and for a very long time. He just seems like a quality linebacker in general

[usmccharles]

Dont know if ts been mentioned yet, but Noah Spence has spoken to the Ravens already. 

[gabefergy]

I'd like someone to explain to me how Noah Spence is appreciably better than Shilique Calhoun, because I see a lot of similar things from them.

[ravensnick]

29 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I'd like someone to explain to me how Noah Spence is appreciably better than Shilique Calhoun, because I see a lot of similar things from them.

I think Spence has more natural athletic ability and a quicker get off than Calhoun. 

[gabefergy]

8 minutes ago, ravensnick said:

I think Spence has more natural athletic ability and a quicker get off than Calhoun. 

I think this is probably true, but it's not a big difference imo. Both are speed guys off the edge, neither have great counters if that doesn't work. Neither have a consistent power move/bullrush. Calhoun I think is a little bendier and has a little more length. 

[Sizzlebshu]

1 hour ago, gabefergy said:

I'd like someone to explain to me how Noah Spence is appreciably better than Shilique Calhoun, because I see a lot of similar things from them.

Not a one trick pony for one thing. 

[gabefergy]

37 minutes ago, Sizzlebshu said:

Not a one trick pony for one thing. 

Actually, he is. He uses his speed off the edge the vast majority of his rush attempts. I've seen a handful of times he uses a speed move to the inside, but he doesn't have a counter. He doesn't have a bull-rush. His one trick is a very good one, but he needs to learn some better moves when it doesn't work, because it won't be as effective in the NFL as in college.

[RavensFanMania]

32 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

Actually, he is. He uses his speed off the edge the vast majority of his rush attempts. I've seen a handful of times he uses a speed move to the inside, but he doesn't have a counter. He doesn't have a bull-rush. His one trick is a very good one, but he needs to learn some better moves when it doesn't work, because it won't be as effective in the NFL as in college.

agree, learning to convert speed to power would be very beneficial for him. 

[gabefergy]

30 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

agree, learning to convert speed to power would be very beneficial for him. 

I think some of the technique can be learned and getting stronger should help as well, but his lack of length concerns me a bit. I'm not sure it's something that is talked about enough.

[RavensFanMania]

1 minute ago, gabefergy said:

I think some of the technique can be learned and getting stronger should help as well, but his lack of length concerns me a bit. I'm not sure it's something that is talked about enough.

I absolutely have mentioned  his lack of arm length and feel it could very well hurt him.

[gabefergy]

I do think speed to power is an a lot of ways a natural skill. You can see it with Von Miller. You can see it with Joey Bosa. Length helps create leverage, but a lot of it comes from the hips as well. Not every player has it in them.

[RavensFanMania]

1 minute ago, gabefergy said:

I do think speed to power is an a lot of ways a natural skill. You can see it with Von Miller. You can see it with Joey Bosa. Length helps create leverage, but a lot of it comes from the hips as well. Not every player has it in them.

I agree and this lack of ability in Spence and knowing the multitude of moves that Bosa has and his ability to convert speed to power and rush from anywhere on the field is a big reason he's my number 1 defensive player in this draft.  I still like Ramsey and Buckner and they are all pretty close, but Bosa has the edge....no pun intended.