2016 Edge Rusher thread

[Jacquouille]

13 hours ago, allblackraven said:

That's pretty much how I view this class, too. I figure we might double-dip here, taking one of these guys early and then seriously consider Ngakoue and Dadi Nicholas in mid rounds.

From what I've seen, Nicholas is a 3/4DE, not an OLB, though that doesn't rule him out of the conversation I wouldn't put him in the same mold as Ngakoue.

 

I'm starting to consider taking an Edge in the 3/4th round, I think there is a large group of talents there. Also, let's be realistic, apart from Spence and Bosa, no Rusher will have an impact in Year One, juste look at the 2015 class. I don't think any of them got more than 3 sacks... I like guys like Ngakoue, Schobert, Ochi or Fackrell more than Ogbah or Lawson. We have time to developp them, we aren't in a hurry like the medias make it seem.

[ALPHA]

Lawson to me looks like a solid base end, a 6-8 sack guy. I'm not a fan of Nkemdiche, he has freak ability but he's a low effort type, I think he's a quitter once he's blocked.

Edited February 6, 2016 by ALPHA

[allblackraven]

1 hour ago, Jacquouille said:

From what I've seen, Nicholas is a 3/4DE, not an OLB, though that doesn't rule him out of the conversation I wouldn't put him in the same mold as Ngakoue.

No way he can play end at just over 220 lbs. He's undersized even for OLB.

[Jacquouille]

57 minutes ago, allblackraven said:

No way he can play end at just over 220 lbs. He's undersized even for OLB.

Have you watched the tape? Anytime I look at him he's lined up on the inside, hands in the dirt. That's a 3/4DE to me, even though your argument is right (and a reason why I don't like him)

[gabefergy]

16 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I agree on all fronts but I think nkemdiche has more than just technique issues. His awareness and vision is really horrible. I think he is gonna really frustrate his fans when they see him busting through the line over and over but leaving running lanes wide open and Missing tackles because he can't find the ball carrier. He will create mismatch problems but still be a liability

I don't really see the issues you do with missed tackles or locating the ball-carrier. My concerns are about technique, staying square to the blocker, and being able to disengage to make the tackle. His anchor is very inconsistent against the run. At times he will flash excellent technique, but he often turns his shoulder and he gets washed out.

[gabefergy]

2 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Lawson to me looks like a solid base end, a 6-8 sack guy. I'm not a fan of Nkemdiche, he has freak ability but he's a low effort type, I think he's a quitter once he's blocked.

Disagree with this regarding effort. He's always chasing down plays from the backside. 

[gabefergy]

16 hours ago, allblackraven said:

That's pretty much how I view this class, too. I figure we might double-dip here, taking one of these guys early and then seriously consider Ngakoue and Dadi Nicholas in mid rounds.

Ngakoue has some athletic limitations imo, but I wouldn't be against taking him in the 4th round. He has a strong motor.

[JoeyFlex5]

12 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I don't really see the issues you do with missed tackles or locating the ball-carrier. My concerns are about technique, staying square to the blocker, and being able to disengage to make the tackle. His anchor is very inconsistent against the run. At times he will flash excellent technique, but he often turns his shoulder and he gets washed out.

i definitely have noticed the shoulder turn, and he gets upright really quick if he doesnt win on initial burst. and i dont really see any missed tackles, i do see a lack of vision and general awareness though, i was just saying that his lack of awareness in the NFL could lead to missed tackles. 

 

i think the fact that he penetrates as well as he does but only has, what.. 5 sacks in his entire college career? i think that speaks a lot to what im saying, he gets lost.

[BmoreBird22]

3 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

From what I've seen, Nicholas is a 3/4DE, not an OLB, though that doesn't rule him out of the conversation I wouldn't put him in the same mold as Ngakoue.

I graduated from Virginia Tech when he actually played there and I'm gonna tell you right now, this is one of the lesser educated things that I have read. In no way, shape, or form does he fit the mold of a defensive end in the 3-4. I doubt he could even play DE in the 4-3 because he's way too small.

[RavensFanMania]

26 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I don't really see the issues you do with missed tackles or locating the ball-carrier. My concerns are about technique, staying square to the blocker, and being able to disengage to make the tackle. His anchor is very inconsistent against the run. At times he will flash excellent technique, but he often turns his shoulder and he gets washed out.

and he does this alot in his tape.  I've never seen a player turn away from his blocker as much as he does. 

[Jacquouille]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

I graduated from Virginia Tech when he actually played there and I'm gonna tell you right now, this is one of the lesser educated things that I have read. In no way, shape, or form does he fit the mold of a defensive end in the 3-4. I doubt he could even play DE in the 4-3 because he's way too small.

Well then, maybe I didn't watch the good part of the tape, but I will ask you to educate me on how is he playing on the edge here:

 

I did stop watching after less than 2min, and I am by no means a football expert, but I'm pretty sure he's lined up as a DL

[BmoreBird22]

36 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Well then, maybe I didn't watch the good part of the tape, but I will ask you to educate me on how is he playing on the edge here:

I did stop watching after less than 2min, and I am by no means a football expert, but I'm pretty sure he's lined up as a DL

Maybe that was too rude on my part, but he definitely plays defensive end at Virginia Tech, but Tech utilizes a very diverse scheme that puts heavy emphasis on the ability to rush the passer/stop the run by overwhelming the line of scrimmage and utilize the secondary to play man to man, single coverage. They don't utilize a lot of double coverage or two high safety looks. They'll often even use zero coverage over the top. Bud Foster uses a base 4-3, but a lot of the time, it's better to call it a 5-2, or his "Bear defense" (Foster loves to use that against OU because of their heavy run potential). 

It's a defense that's utilized to put a lot of bodies up front so that you can't double and it asks the guys up front to win their match up flat out. Nicolas prime means of winning is going to be off the edge with an explosive first step and speed. He's definitely strong for his size, but no where near strong enough to play inside as a DT. If he looks like he's playing inside, it's probably due to them bringing in a fifth lineman or bringing down a linebacker to play beside him.

He's gonna have to bulk up a good 20, 25 pounds to be a consistent player in the NFL, but he's got all the traits of a 3-4 OLB: Long, explosive, fast, quick, smart. He's one of the most natural edge rushers of the draft, but he's just flat out too small at this point in time. If he were simply bigger, he would have first round pass rush potential, but he's tiny.

Edited February 6, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[allblackraven]

43 minutes ago, BmoreBird22 said:

I graduated from Virginia Tech when he actually played there and I'm gonna tell you right now, this is one of the lesser educated things that I have read. In no way, shape, or form does he fit the mold of a defensive end in the 3-4. I doubt he could even play DE in the 4-3 because he's way too small.

To be fair, he is surprisingly strong for his size but definitely needs to hit the gym hard for 34 OLB.

39 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Well then, maybe I didn't watch the good part of the tape, but I will ask you to educate me on how is he playing on the edge here
I did stop watching after less than 2min, and I am by no means a football expert, but I'm pretty sure he's lined up as a DL

Where he lined up at Tech has more to do with their defensive scheme. Put enough players up front and you can't double team anybody.

[BmoreBird22]

Just now, allblackraven said:

To be fair, he is surprisingly strong for his size but definitely needs to hit the gym hard for 34 OLB.

Where he lined up at Tech has more to do with their defensive scheme. Put enough players up front and you can't double team anybody.

See my above post.

[allblackraven]

Just now, BmoreBird22 said:

See my above post.

Oh, lol

*note to self - refresh before you post

[rmw10]

49 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Well then, maybe I didn't watch the good part of the tape, but I will ask you to educate me on how is he playing on the edge here

I did stop watching after less than 2min, and I am by no means a football expert, but I'm pretty sure he's lined up as a DL

Once thing I'd caution is that where a player lines up in college is not necessarily their best fit in the NFL.  You can get away with a lot more of that in college because of the difference in talent level.  The talent gap between the two levels is astronomical.

[Willbacker]

46 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Well then, maybe I didn't watch the good part of the tape, but I will ask you to educate me on how is he playing on the edge here:

 

I did stop watching after less than 2min, and I am by no means a football expert, but I'm pretty sure he's lined up as a DL

Lol he's definitely playing 3-4DE and that's a great call but its mainly cuz of his body size he'd have to come in as an OLB since 3-4 DE's in the pros weigh at least 280 lbs with their main job being occupying blockers, Even McPhee and Upshaw who did double duty on the line(in pass rush situations) and OLB weighed between 265-270 lbs. Nicolas does seem to have pretty decent strength with some push and he was playing against The Ohio St University. Looks to be a project who would have to perform SpTeam duties with some spot snaps.

[RavensFan34950]

On 2/6/2016 at 8:56 PM, gabefergy said:

A few thoughts on the edge rushers in this class:

- Not great in terms of traditional OLB type. Spence is the only top guy that fits the mold. Maybe Calhoun later.

- Bosa is a special talent, and if he is there at #6 he has to be the pick. I'd strongly consider trading up if he falls outside of the top 3.

- Shaq Lawson is good, but even more of a stretch to play OLB than Bosa. Similar feelings about Dodd.

- Not a big fan of Ogbah. Flashes impressive traits, but too inconsistent. Needs a lot of work.

- Starting to come around to Calhoun as a nice 2nd round option. Some questions regarding anchor vs the run and ability to convert speed to power. Good bend

- Not an "edge" rusher, but I would take Buckner at #6. Great anchor against the run. Not explosive, but uses length exceptionally well. Overpowering at times.

- Nkemdiche is one of the best athletes I have ever watched play on the DL. Obvious character concerns and needs a lot of technical refinement, but when he is clicking he is borderline unblockable. 

According to some on this board Nkemdiche is as dumb as bricks and has no hope in the NFL. Now I don't believe that at all. I don't think I have seen a player with his explosion at that position in a long time and he would instantly help our pass rush from the inside. But would you take a chance on him with the 6th pick?

[RaineV1]

To bring up a couple edge guys beyond the first 2 rounds, how about Joe Schobert from Wisconsin and Kamalie Correa from Boise State? Reading up on Schobert he really sounds like a great midround player to pick. Very good instincts, quick, and decent in coverage. He also could play ILB. Correa is the better athlete of the two showing amazing speed, and probably has the higher ceiling, but he'll be more of a work in progress; though that isn't bad since he can sit behind Suggs, Doom, and ZDS for his rookie season. Both players are high motor guys, which is always a plus.

[Maryland]

12 hours ago, RavensFanMania said:

I am one that does have a bit of concern.  He has an awesome first step, high motor, great bend, but teams will be able to adjust to that, considering he can't or hasn't learned yet how to convert speed to power.  At this point, I'm not interested in him at number 6.  I have no issues trading back and taking him, but definitely not at 6.

I wasn't advocating him at #6, but if he was taken at 6 I would be alright with it. He seems better than Leonard Floyd, who strikes me as a pure DPR, and I've already seen him mocked to us in several drafts.

[RavensFanMania]

2 hours ago, RavensFan34950 said:

According to some on this board Nkemdiche is as dumb as bricks and has no hope in the NFL. Now I don't believe that at all. I don't think I have seen a player with his explosion at that position in a long time and he would instantly help our pass rush from the inside. But would you take a chance on him with the 6th pick?

not a chance.

[Mt. Crushmore]

Remember when Ogbah was all the rage here at No. 6 overall?

[gabefergy]

18 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i definitely have noticed the shoulder turn, and he gets upright really quick if he doesnt win on initial burst. and i dont really see any missed tackles, i do see a lack of vision and general awareness though, i was just saying that his lack of awareness in the NFL could lead to missed tackles. 

 

i think the fact that he penetrates as well as he does but only has, what.. 5 sacks in his entire college career? i think that speaks a lot to what im saying, he gets lost.

The produciton question is a fair one, but it has nothing to do with getting lost. Most of the time others are cleaning up his work or the QB is throwing the ball away. I don't think I have seen him get into the backfield and not have some impact on the play.

[gabefergy]

On 2/5/2016 at 0:53 AM, Jacquouille said:

Just saw a mock having Sheldon Rankins in the top 10, haven't seen any of him, opinions?

He's really good. I could see it happening

[gabefergy]

13 hours ago, RavensFan34950 said:

According to some on this board Nkemdiche is as dumb as bricks and has no hope in the NFL. Now I don't believe that at all. I don't think I have seen a player with his explosion at that position in a long time and he would instantly help our pass rush from the inside. But would you take a chance on him with the 6th pick?

Yes, absolutely I would take a chance if I had the opportunity to meet with him, bring him in to work out, and he passed the test. If he is dumb as bricks and doesn't get it then no. 

From a talent perspective he's a top 3 player in this draf.

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, Mt. Crushmore said:

Remember when Ogbah was all the rage here at No. 6 overall?

Yeah. I admittedly bought the hype but then I watched him more and realized he's not as good as his hype. 

[RavensFanMania]

Spence was measured at the senior bowl and came in an inch shorter, but, and I'm hoping this is a typo though nfl.com reports it this way, spence's arms are listed at 2.5 inches shorter than von's. I had seen him listed at 32 previously, but if 31 is right then that is freakishly short. Even dumervil has 32 from what I can dig up. It's one of those things that can seem trivial, but the number of top pass rushers in the league with sub 32 arms is probably zero. All I'm seeing for success stories are guys like brandon graham at 32.25 and dumervil at 32.75.  It's not as big an issue for a 3-4 OLB as it is for a 4-3 DE, but i'd much rather him have 32 inch plus arms.

Not it's not impossible for him to succeed, but it's a red flag for sure.

Edited February 7, 2016 by RavensFanMania

[gabefergy]

39 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

Spence was measured at the senior bowl and came in an inch shorter, but, and I'm hoping this is a typo though nfl.com reports it this way, spence's arms are listed at 2.5 inches shorter than von's. I had seen him listed at 32 previously, but if 31 is right then that is freakishly short. Even dumervil has 32 from what I can dig up. It's one of those things that can seem trivial, but the number of top pass rushers in the league with sub 32 arms is probably zero. All I'm seeing for success stories are guys like brandon graham at 32.25 and dumervil at 32.75.  It's not as big an issue for a 3-4 OLB as it is for a 4-3 DE, but i'd much rather him have 32 inch plus arms.

Not it's not impossible for him to succeed, but it's a red flag for sure.

I don't see arm length as a big problem, but why do you think it makes any difference for a 4-3 DE vs a 3-4 OLB? They both have to beat OTs off the edge.

[RavensFanMania]

10 minutes ago, gabefergy said:

I don't see arm length as a big problem, but why do you think it makes any difference for a 4-3 DE vs a 3-4 OLB? They both have to beat OTs off the edge.

pass rush is an advantage, but less so for pass rushing, then for run defense and imo 4-3 DE in college and has shorter arms (not the only reason) will most likely be better suited as a 3-4 OLB at the next level.  ie Tamba Hali was sub 32 and Clay Matthews, Jared Allen, James Harrison, Joey Porter, and Terrell Suggs all had 32 inch arms.  Length would be great, but more so as a 4-3 DE than a 3-4.  We are in nickel defense a lot and are lined up in 3-4 base less than half the time. 

[gabefergy]

5 minutes ago, RavensFanMania said:

pass rush is an advantage, but less so for pass rushing, then for run defense and imo 4-3 DE in college and has shorter arms (not the only reason) will most likely be better suited as a 3-4 OLB at the next level.  ie Tamba Hali was sub 32 and Clay Matthews, Jared Allen, James Harrison, Joey Porter, and Terrell Suggs all had 32 inch arms.  Length would be great, but more so as a 4-3 DE than a 3-4.  We are in nickel defense a lot and are lined up in 3-4 base less than half the time. 

I just don't see much difference between 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. OLBs still have to set the edge against bigger OTs and TEs just like DEs do.