2016 Edge Rusher thread

[JoeyFlex5]

2 minutes ago, Winchester said:

I only skimmed through it and I do not call that dominating Conklin. If he were the star of the defense and that is all he performed it wouldn't change the outcome of a playoff game or disrupt the offense very much. And in my opinion Conklin is very overrated and will be very mediocre in the NFL if that. However if ravens get Buckner it would be cool if you are correct.  But It looks as if Calais Cambell is his limit. Which isn't bad but also not a real game changer like Atkins  Donald  Watt or any game changing defensive player. But it does look as if he will be drafted top10 or better.

Atkins and Donald are completely different players, they are penetrating 1 gappers, buckner looks to be a more traditional 3-4 DE who plays a diverse role switching between 2 and 1 gap assignments regularly. Sometimes busting through the backfield instantly isn't the only indicator of success, if that were the case then ngata would have been a bust. 

[ALPHA]

13 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Atkins and Donald are completely different players, they are penetrating 1 gappers, buckner looks to be a more traditional 3-4 DE who plays a diverse role switching between 2 and 1 gap assignments regularly. Sometimes busting through the backfield instantly isn't the only indicator of success, if that were the case then ngata would have been a bust. 

Diversity, not just an old, old wooden ship that was used in the civil war era.

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, ALPHA said:

Diversity, not just an old, old wooden ship that was used in the civil war era.

Sorry champ, I think I ate your chocolate squirrel

[Ravensfan23]

@JacquouilleWe definitely saw it differently. Not saying he had a poor game nor am I saying he's not a strong talent, but I didn't see him "dominating" much. He certainly had his moments which any really good player will. Also he did impact the game in ways that didn't show up in the stat sheet.

To be fair I didn't watch that game in full, mostly watched YouTube. However if you go back and watch that YouTube clip vs MSU, the first play he abandons his gap and allows a huge run.

On the 3rd play of that clip he gets matched up 1on1 with Conklin and is handled because there was no secondary move after the bull rush. 

Getting blown off the ball is never good. Even if double teamed. Getting pushed out of you assignment is never good. Also there were a couple of times he was blown off the ball with a solo block. 

I did say that he was a 1st rounder and nothing in watching him says he's not. Also I think he'll be a really good pro, I just think it'll take a couple, maybe a few years and that's why I wouldn't touch him in the top 5. But 10-15 is a good range . Also too be fair I gave him a + grade for that game but I see more of a Chris Canty comparison then the JJ Watt/Campbell comparisons I've seen. I see his ceiling as a Trevor Pryce type and that's an heck of an career for anyone.

[PurpleCity5]

After watching Jaylon Smith more and more, and watching his interviews, the one's in which people tend to ask him about his play style and pass rushing techniques, I'm comfortable with him being a potential 3-4 OLB for us. Now its just the weight and where he falls. If we trade back to the 15-20 range and his weight checks out well, then I definitely say pick him. 

 

If he molds into a great weak-side edge rusher for us, then he can turn out to be our best draft pick since Jimmy Smith, or even Joe Flacco. I'm serious. I think he's that great. 

 

Obviously the weaknesses would be if how he would handle NFL LTs in space, but I think his quickness and agility could overwhelm them, I think he does a good job of transitioning speed to power. But man, off the line he's so explosive, that stands out to me the most. He's so quick to the back field. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by PurpleCity5

[Ravensfan23]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

I saw him anchoring well on double teams. He laterally pushed the direction of the line pretty well and on occasion got pushed off the ball but it's to be expected. In the rare occasion he was singled up on conklin, who is by all means a first round NFL tackle, he made absolute lightwork of him, that's exactly what you're looking for from a DT prospect, hold your ground against double teams and dominate in single matchup. I feel like some people expect perfection from every prospect and won't consider them if they don't see that

Not perfection. At least not on my end. I thought he played well that game. However when you see people compare him to JJ Watt or say he made light work of a fellow 1st rounder, you expect to see that when you watch that match-up and I certainly didn't. He won his fair share of matchups but he wasn't unblock able imo. 

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, Ravensfan23 said:

Not perfection. At least not on my end. I thought he played well that game. However when you see people compare him to JJ Watt or say he made light work of a fellow 1st rounder, you expect to see that when you watch that match-up and I certainly didn't. He won his fair share of matchups but he wasn't unblock able imo. 

Not unlockable but he played a very good game and handled his duties and performed up to expectations of a first round 5tech DE. That also is known as his worst game This season, so that also speaks volumes 

[Ravensfan23]

5 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Not unlockable but he played a very good game and handled his duties and performed up to expectations of a first round 5tech DE. That also is known as his worst game This season, so that also speaks volumes 

Yeah I never said he didn't play well. Just highlighted a few blemishes I saw in his game. He's definitely a 1st rounder but I just don't see his value at 6. Like I said I didn't actually watch that game, so when I read a lot of the comments about Bunkner on here, I went to draft breakdown to watch expecting to see the best 5tech I've seen in years and that's not what I saw. 

I saw a really good 5tech who could be dominate if he learned better technique but will find life in the NFL a lot tougher because he won't be able to over power better olineman. 

[ravensnation5220]

Ive been turning on Calhoun lately. I used to think he was stiff and slow in his pass rush but i watched again and he really turns the corner well at times, has a nice first step and uses his hands well although he can get into a slap fight at times.  He has a really impressive frame but he doesnt consistently overpower other players. He could probably have a wider base and add more muscle in his arms but hes already 250. From what ive heard from a lot of scouting reports on him is he shows he can do everything well they just have issues with his motor and demeanor, he needs to be more violent they say. I like the idea of having him in a rotation with the guys we have and let him develope behind suggs, have harbs light a fire under him like hes doing with jernigan and we could have a great player in the 2nd maybe even 3rd round, could be one of those guys who falls to round 3. Too soon to tell but i feel were gonna get a real good steal in round 3 like carl davis last year

[Jacquouille]

Yeah, based on how everyone has been souring on him (and not just here), Calhoun might be a 3rd round steal. I'll have to rewatch his tape but I'm glad someone finally brought him back in the discussion, I think we buried him a bit too early.

[JoeyFlex5]

Calhoun is often the last person off the ball. That's a trait that can't be coached up, and one that will just kill an NFL pass rushers potential. You need a first step to succeed in the NFL 

[ravensnation5220]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Calhoun is often the last person off the ball. That's a trait that can't be coached up, and one that will just kill an NFL pass rushers potential. You need a first step to succeed in the NFL 

Thats what i thought before hand, but then i went back to the tape and he does show a good first step. More impressive than i was expecting yet he isnt consistent with it. He seems hed rather fight with his hands, and gets too conservative with it. I think the problem is the lack of aggressiveness. I think he definitely has the ability and has showed production to prove his case. 

 

 

[ravensnation5220]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/shilique-calhoun?id=2555294&id=2555294

http://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Draft-Scouting-Reports/Scouting-Report-Shilique-Calhoun.asp

Pretty much sums up how i feel about calhoun.

[Winchester]

18 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Atkins and Donald are completely different players, they are penetrating 1 gappers, buckner looks to be a more traditional 3-4 DE who plays a diverse role switching between 2 and 1 gap assignments regularly. Sometimes busting through the backfield instantly isn't the only indicator of success, if that were the case then ngata would have been a bust. 

The elite could penetrate and 2 gap at a high level. A 3-4 end or Tackle that gets double digit sacks is far more rare and tougher than a space eater.  The mistaken notion that penetrators can not 2 gap is silly. It takes more than explosion to get 12-14 sacks as a 3-4 end or Tackle. Atkins and Donald are very crazy strong!! If asked, Atkins and Donald could play 3-4 end or 2 gap very effectively. I always say the greats are interchangeable and could play 3-4 defensive end or Tackle. As could Grady Jarrett who will get double digit sacks. To be honest, call me crazy but I would prefer Grady to Buckner. I was very upset the ravens drafted Davis over Grady. And yes he did overwhelm Conklin but Conklin although overwhelmed did often seal him from making a play. And I do not see Conklin as a better than average player in the NFL. In my opinion he is waaay overrated. And yes I do agree Buckner is a round one talent with pro bowl potential just not in the league of Watt Atkins or Donald. I do not yet see special burst or explosion. He closes nicely and that is most impressive thing about him so far along with his flexibility.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 hours ago, Winchester said:

The elite could penetrate and 2 gap at a high level. A 3-4 end or Tackle that gets double digit sacks is far more rare and tougher than a space eater.  The mistaken notion that penetrators can not 2 gap is silly. It takes more than explosion to get 12-14 sacks as a 3-4 end or Tackle. Atkins and Donald are very crazy strong!! If asked, Atkins and Donald could play 3-4 end or 2 gap very effectively. I always say the greats are interchangeable and could play 3-4 defensive end or Tackle. As could Grady Jarrett who will get double digit sacks. To be honest, call me crazy but I would prefer Grady to Buckner. I was very pi$$ed the ravens drafted Davis over Grady. And yes he did overwhelm Conklin but Conklin although overwhelmed did often seal him from making a play. And I do not see Conklin as a better than average player in the NFL. In my opinion he is waaay overrated. And yes I do agree Buckner is a round one talent with pro bowl potential just not in the league of Watt Atkins or Donald. I do not yet see special burst or explosion. He closes nicely and that is most impressive thing about him so far along with his flexibility.

asking aaron donald to play 3-4 end and 2 gap would be a ridiculous waste of talent, not saying he wouldnt be able to but you dont draft great players and force them to be average. 

 

the point is, you are comparing them but they are 2 very different types of players, dominant 3-4 ends are few and far between, buckner looks to be the next one, in a tier below jj watt, but in the same tier as calais campbell, derek wolfe, sheldon richardson, muhammed wilkerson etc. etc. i wouldnt even try to compare these guys to aaron donald because their style of play is so far apart and what makes one good isnt what makes the other good.

[GrimCoconut]

12 hours ago, ravensnation5220 said:

Thats what i thought before hand, but then i went back to the tape and he does show a good first step. More impressive than i was expecting yet he isnt consistent with it. He seems hed rather fight with his hands, and gets too conservative with it. I think the problem is the lack of aggressiveness. I think he definitely has the ability and has showed production to prove his case. 

 

Calhoun doesn't have a fast first step; rather, he's very good at timing the snap. I don't think his game translates well in the NFL because those type of players often find themselves getting encroachment/offsides penalties. 

[JoeyFlex5]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Calhoun doesn't have a fast first step; rather, he's very good at timing the snap. I don't think his game translates well in the NFL because those type of players often find themselves getting encroachment/offsides penalties. 

this. he anticipates as a crutch for his slow first step, and even great anticipation with a slow first step doesnt translate to the NFL because the tackles are too quick on their dropbacks, even if he can successfully anticipate, the LT hes facing wont even sweat it because he knows he can seal off the corner long before he even becomes a threat, which in turn allows the LT the comfort of knowing he doesnt have to overstep, letting him easily anticipate the inside move as well. 

 

if calhoun wants to make a living in the nfl, he needs to add a ridiculous amount of raw power and make a living as a bullrusher, which i actually dont think is far fetched because the guy has the hands and feet of an NFL veteran already and naturally plays with really violent rips and swipes, but his lack of a quality first step i think will really limit him until he can physically match up to NFL tackles on a consistent basis.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Winchester]

6 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

asking aaron donald to play 3-4 end and 2 gap would be a ridiculous waste of talent, not saying he wouldnt be able to but you dont draft great players and force them to be average. 

 

the point is, you are comparing them but they are 2 very different types of players, dominant 3-4 ends are few and far between, buckner looks to be the next one, in a tier below jj watt, but in the same tier as calais campbell, derek wolfe, sheldon richardson, muhammed wilkerson etc. etc. i wouldnt even try to compare these guys to aaron donald because their style of play is so far apart and what makes one good isnt what makes the other good.

That is what I was saying. Atkins and Donald do not occupy blocks cuz that is a waste of talent because Atkins skills are more dynamic,rare  and in demand.  I agree Campbell is about who Buckner is. Which is great but not sure top3 pick caliber pick. Would be nice to combine Bosa's and Buckner's talent then you would have jj watt!! lol. Even 3-4 ends have different roles. So!e are asked to penetrate far more often while some are asked to free up Linebackers and line mates. If Buckner can get double digit sacks as a 3-4 end while performing 2 gap responsibilities half the time he would be top 5 pick caliber. Richardson is more of a 1 gap penetrators role. Most 3-4 ends do not possess the skill to get to the QB like Aaron Donald which is the reason a player is not in that role of Donald. But Atkins and Donald could 2 gap. But just to good at penetrating to waste doing that. That role is for less skilled players.

[JoeyFlex5]

10 minutes ago, Winchester said:

That is what I was saying. Atkins and Donald do not occupy blocks cuz that is a waste of talent because Atkins skills are more dynamic,rare  and in demand.  I agree Campbell is about who Buckner is. Which is great but not sure top3 pick caliber pick. Would be nice to combine Bosa's and Buckner's talent then you would have jj watt!! lol. Even 3-4 ends have different roles. So!e are asked to penetrate far more often while some are asked to free up Linebackers and line mates. If Buckner can get double digit sacks as a 3-4 end while performing 2 gap responsibilities half the time he would be top 5 pick caliber. Richardson is more of a 1 gap penetrators role. Most 3-4 ends do not possess the skill to get to the QB like Aaron Donald which is the reason a player is not in that role of Donald. But Atkins and Donald could 2 gap. But just to good at penetrating to waste doing that. That role is for less skilled players.

most 3-4 ends dont play a role like donald because they are in a 3-4... 

 

asking a 3-4 end to get double digit sacks regularly is asking for disappointment, however i fully believe buckner is capable of 7-8 sacks, double digit TFL, and good number of batted passes, all the while occupying blockers regularly, which is an elite level performance from a 2 gapper. 

 

having a 3-4DE who never has to rotate and can 2 gap, pass rush, anchor, crash, and swat the ball all at a moderately high level is something that is becoming more valued by 3-4 defenses, and for good reason. a 3-4 usually calls for a versatile front, lots of moving parts and disguised intentions, having a guy who never has to come off the field and can perform any of those tasks well can really allow for more creativity and confusion, which is what the 3-4 is built on. you seem to have one specific prototype of DT and you just dislike any player that doesnt fit that prototype. for a 3-4 defense, a guy like buckner could be every bit as valuable as aaron donald is to a 4-3, because they are both perfect examples of what you look for in that position, that doesnt make one better than the other, just makes them different. 

[ALI624]

17 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

most 3-4 ends dont play a role like donald because they are in a 3-4... 

 

asking a 3-4 end to get double digit sacks regularly is asking for disappointment, however i fully believe buckner is capable of 7-8 sacks, double digit TFL, and good number of batted passes, all the while occupying blockers regularly, which is an elite level performance from a 2 gapper. 

 

having a 3-4DE who never has to rotate and can 2 gap, pass rush, anchor, crash, and swat the ball all at a moderately high level is something that is becoming more valued by 3-4 defenses, and for good reason. a 3-4 usually calls for a versatile front, lots of moving parts and disguised intentions, having a guy who never has to come off the field and can perform any of those tasks well can really allow for more creativity and confusion, which is what the 3-4 is built on. you seem to have one specific prototype of DT and you just dislike any player that doesnt fit that prototype. for a 3-4 defense, a guy like buckner could be every bit as valuable as aaron donald is to a 4-3, because they are both perfect examples of what you look for in that position, that doesnt make one better than the other, just makes them different. 

You really think Buckner can do all that because if he could I don't know how he falls to us at 6.  I personally believe that if Ramsey and Bosa are gone then we need to trade down and pick up at least 3 additional picks. 

[JoeyFlex5]

14 minutes ago, ALI624 said:

You really think Buckner can do all that because if he could I don't know how he falls to us at 6.  I personally believe that if Ramsey and Bosa are gone then we need to trade down and pick up at least 3 additional picks. 

buckner has been called a top 5 talent on more than one occasion, its not a consensus view though. i think the chargers are a big time sleeper to take him, he is the kind of guy who could usher in a new era for a struggling 3-4 defense and become the face of it. and that pick would certainly give us a better chance at landing one of the big names like bosa or ramsey. 

 

also, trading back is much easier said than done. if the niners make it clear theyre sticking with kaepernick then we have absolutely zero leverage, and as of now thats what it looks like.

Edited February 2, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[ALI624]

8 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

buckner has been called a top 5 talent on more than one occasion, its not a consensus view though. i think the chargers are a big time sleeper to take him, he is the kind of guy who could usher in a new era for a struggling 3-4 defense and become the face of it. and that pick would certainly give us a better chance at landing one of the big names like bosa or ramsey. 

 

also, trading back is much easier said than done. if the niners make it clear theyre sticking with kaepernick then we have absolutely zero leverage, and as of now thats what it looks like.

Chargers maybe, but if I had to bet it would be the Jags. Him and Fowler would be great for them and I see them signing Weddle or another veteran safety and the Chargers taking Ramsey as Weddle's replacement.  Can only see the Browns taking a QB in the top 5 and I hope it is Wentz leaving Goff to see if the Rams will panic and try to make a splash and keep a California boy at home.  Philly is a possible wildcard obviously depending on Bradford. 

[January J]

23 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

chargershas been called a top 5 talent o n more than one occasion, its not a consensus view though. i think the chargers are a big time sleeper to take him, he is the kind of guy who could usher in a new era for a struggling 3-4 defense and become the face of it. and that pick would certainly give us a better chance at landing one of the big names like bosa or ramsey. 

 

also, trading back is much easier said than done. if the niners make it clear theyre sticking with kaepernick then we have absolutely zero leverage, and as of now thats what it looks like.

If the titans take Bosa and the Chargers take Buckner There is a very good chance that Tunsil falls to us. 

[JoeyFlex5]

10 minutes ago, January J said:

If the titans take Bosa and the Chargers take Buckner There is a very good chance that Tunsil falls to us. 

i just dont see that happening though. if the titans were to pass on tunsil for bosa, then i think there is 0% chance he falls past SD. they want a DE/DT, and a safety to replace weddle, but LT is still hands down their biggest need i would think, that one would have to be a no brainer.

[PurpleCity5]

2 hours ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

i just dont see that happening though. if the titans were to pass on tunsil for bosa, then i think there is 0% chance he falls past SD. they want a DE/DT, and a safety to replace weddle, but LT is still hands down their biggest need i would think, that one would have to be a no brainer.

I wouldn't say there's a 0% chance of them passing on him since more surprising things have happened before, but I would probably say he doesn't get passed them either. I think that's a least-wanted scenario because Tunsil, Bosa, and Ramsey would likely be off and I'm sure Ozzie is banging on the door for one of them. 

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, PurpleCity5 said:

I wouldn't say there's a 0% chance of them passing on him since more surprising things have happened before, but I would probably say he doesn't get passed them either. I think that's a least-wanted scenario because Tunsil, Bosa, and Ramsey would likely be off and I'm sure Ozzie is banging on the door for one of them. 

There have been huge surprises before, but I don't know if anything would surprise me more than the tackle needy chargers passing on the best LT prospect since Walter Jones( and probably a better prospect than him as well)

[52520Andrew]

On 2/1/2016 at 1:37 PM, JoeyFlex5 said:

Atkins and Donald are completely different players, they are penetrating 1 gappers, buckner looks to be a more traditional 3-4 DE who plays a diverse role switching between 2 and 1 gap assignments regularly. Sometimes busting through the backfield instantly isn't the only indicator of success, if that were the case then ngata would have been a bust. 

Yeah completely different players if you ask me. Don't underestimate Ngata's burst though, he was big and double teamed a lot for obvious reasons but if you gave him a clear lane, you were paying for it.

 

Sorry for bad quality, only video I could find

Edited February 2, 2016 by 52520Andrew

[JoeyFlex5]

2 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

Yeah completely different players if you ask me. Don't underestimate Ngata's burst though, he was big and double teamed a lot for obvious reasons but if you gave him a clear lane, you were paying for it.

 

 

He was definitely a freak but He did a lot more anchoring and reading than he did penetrating in his days here, he waa so great for us though because he could do all of it, if the play called for him to bench press a guy and shoot in then he could do it, if it called for him to eat 2 blockers and clog up the throwing lane by jumping to swatt the ball then he could do that too. He was diverse and I think buckner us of the same mold but with meaaurables that basically give him no ceiling, he's got a high floor for any system but I think he can be special here in Baltimore 

[52520Andrew]

8 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

He was definitely a freak but He did a lot more anchoring and reading than he did penetrating in his days here, he waa so great for us though because he could do all of it, if the play called for him to bench press a guy and shoot in then he could do it, if it called for him to eat 2 blockers and clog up the throwing lane by jumping to swatt the ball then he could do that too. He was diverse and I think buckner us of the same mold but with meaaurables that basically give him no ceiling, he's got a high floor for any system but I think he can be special here in Baltimore 

I wouldn't compare Buckner to Ngata talent wise, only guy that is close this year is Nkemdiche and not sold on him outside that talent.

[JoeyFlex5]

3 minutes ago, 52520Andrew said:

I wouldn't compare Buckner to Ngata talent wise, only guy that is close this year is Nkemdiche and not sold on him outside that talent.

Ngata wasn't that highly touted coming out and went 12th overall. There were concerns about his motor and work ethic, and if the ravens didn't take him he quite possibly could have fell quite a bit more.