Snap distribution for the young guys

[xxDarby]

So I found this article from baltimorebeatdown that showed the exact snap count for players. One thing I found really interesting was that Brooks had 1 snap on defense. Its ridiculous that Harbaugh refuses to play the young safety we just drafted! Here is the link so you can check it out yourselves: http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2015/12/21/10633060/baltimore-ravens-vs-kansas-city-chiefs-final-score-player-snap-counts?_ga=1.167887777.140968338.1450748471

[Clmraven]

As much as i hate to see Brooks on the sideline when we really have nothing to play for, I'm a little more disappointed about Tray Walker not playing any defense I'd much rather see him out there than Jumal Rolle, Walker must be pretty far from a finished product but I'm not sure why we're treating him like a rookie QB do they think it will stunt his development or what?

[52liveforever]

I'm not among the masses that are calling for harbs to be fired. I think to be consistently successful you can't be rotating at head coach every 3-5 years. With that said harbs has really driven me crazy this season. The whole Perriman situation, the constant defending of pees. Not giving certain players any chance. Him being totally inconsistent with players. He needs to take a look at himself because he has made a lot of boneheaded decisions this year and some questionable calls.

[Cillmatic]

Harbaugh REALLY gave Brooks ONE snap?!?!? Does he still think we're in the playoff race?

[xxDarby]

I'm not among the masses that are calling for harbs to be fired. I think to be consistently successful you can't be rotating at head coach every 3-5 years. With that said harbs has really driven me crazy this season. The whole Perriman situation, the constant defending of pees. Not giving certain players any chance. Him being totally inconsistent with players. He needs to take a look at himself because he has made a lot of boneheaded decisions this year and some questionable calls.

I love Harbs, but like you mentioned, that is my biggest gripe with him. He gives pretty much all his players (outside of the first round) no snaps. It is so frustrating to have players on the bench that we don't really get to assess because of him!

[BirdWatcher]

Harbaugh REALLY gave Brooks ONE snap?!?!? Does he still think we're in the playoff race?

I don't think Harbs is setting the personnel packages during the game. The coordinators/assistants are sending in the players. I do think he should raise the issue with them, though.

[Clmraven]

Harbaugh REALLY gave Brooks ONE snap?!?!? Does he still think we're in the playoff race?

I think that's more Pees than Harbs, it just seems like Dean absolutely despises Brooks I really don't get it, at some point you have to see what you have in a higher draft pick, I think it's clear Kendrick Lewis is not the future.

[PurpleCity5]

I really hope Pees can get Brooks involved. 

[Ravenseconbeast]

So I found this article from baltimorebeatdown that showed the exact snap count for players. One thing I found really interesting was that Brooks had 1 snap on defense. Its ridiculous that Harbaugh refuses to play the young safety we just drafted! Here is the link so you can check it out yourselves: http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2015/12/21/10633060/baltimore-ravens-vs-kansas-city-chiefs-final-score-player-snap-counts?_ga=1.167887777.140968338.1450748471

 

Certain guys just aren't doing their due to top other players to be on the field.   Im sure there is a good reason why.   Coaches are in the field and know whats going on more than us.   

[spitfire418]

I'm getting tired of Harbaugh man. He said in his press conference last week that the young defensive guys would be getting a good chance to play, BUT that did not happen at all. Harbaugh's words are hardly ever true it seems. The young guy that got the most snaps was Brent Urban with 11, ONLY 11. Pretty sure he was getting that many the previous weeks. Guys like Brooks, Walker, A. Brown, even Sheldon Price who he mention didn't even get ONE snap (not counting Brooks' one snap because Lewis went down). This is just ridiculous when we have a 4-10 record with so many injuries. You don't always get a chance to play and evaluate the young guys during the regular season, but this is a situation that we could do that. Sadly we only have two games left in the season. PLAY THE YOUNG GUYS!

[52liveforever]

Certain guys just aren't doing their due to top other players to be on the field. Im sure there is a good reason why. Coaches are in the field and know whats going on more than us.

Brooks has looked good enough to earn more reps. Urban has been a major impact and still not getting very many reps.

[Sunday QB]

I want to see Carl Davis and Tray Walker player the majority of snaps the next two weeks.

[spitfire418]

I want to see Carl Davis and Tray Walker player the majority of snaps the next two weeks.

Too bad that won't happen. Coaches are blind to the fact that they are 4-10.

[baltimorefan328]

Brooks has looked good enough to earn more reps. Urban has been a major impact and still not getting very many reps.

Can't remember if I saw it on this website or somewhere else, but I thought I saw an article saying Urban got like 25 snaps against the Seahawks and only 12 or so against the Chiefs even though Chris Canty is on IR.  I don't know if Harbs had some reasoning behind that but at least just from an outside observer, I don't see any good reason for reducing a guys snap count who seems like he's only done things to earn more time

Edited December 23, 2015 by baltimorefan328

[BSHU_Miami]

This is really frustrating. We have rookies and we don't play them hell we cut John Simon before he even got a chance to play. Why are we wasting time and talent, if they can't play SO WHAT. WERE 4-10. Pees is treating these rooks like shanahan treated Rg3

[Tru11]

Can't remember if I saw it on this website or somewhere else, but I thought I saw an article saying Urban got like 25 snaps against the Seahawks and only 12 or so against the Chiefs even though Chris Canty is on IR.  I don't know if Harbs had some reasoning behind that but at least just from an outside observer, I don't see any good reason for reducing a guys snap count who seems like he's only done things to earn more time

 

different opponents who do different things on offense.

 

its not really that hard to understand TBH.

[spitfire418]

This is really frustrating. We have rookies and we don't play them hell we cut John Simon before he even got a chance to play. Why are we wasting time and talent, if they can't play SO WHAT. WERE 4-10. Pees is treating these rooks like shanahan treated Rg3

Exactly.

[Purple_City39]

Wow, that's a lot of overreacting.  As stated, Coordinators set the personnel packages, and Harbaugh is not a hands on coach so if anyone should get blame for who does or doesn't play on defense, that's Pees.

 

Second, Urban is fresh off a serious injury.  Not a single person here knows whether or not he felt some pain or discomfort after the Seahawks game or during practice before the Chiefs game but you just want to assume Harbaugh is keeping him off the field for the fun of it.
 

And then someone even went as far as to say Harbaugh doesn't give players any snaps unless they first rounders.  How can this be when some of the biggest complaints in recent years have been how Tandon Doss (4th), Asa Jackson (5th), David Reed (5th) and Chykie Brown (5th) were getting too many snaps and chances?  When Pernell McPhee (5th) and Arthur Jones (5th) played so much and so well they were able to price their way out of town?   Nick Boyle (5th) was placed ahead of Maxx Williams (2nd).  

 

This season sucks.  On many levels.  But looking for reasons to be angry/upset and people to blame isn't going to make it better

[Purple_City39]

This is really frustrating. We have rookies and we don't play them hell we cut John Simon before he even got a chance to play. Why are we wasting time and talent, if they can't play SO WHAT. WERE 4-10. Pees is treating these rooks like shanahan treated Rg3

Like this statement.  Johnson Simon was behind known commodities like Terrell Suggs, Elvis Dumervil, Courtney Upshaw and a very versatile although not spectacular Albert McClellan.  Simon was picked up off the practice squad by Houston his second season, he was just cut and sent into free agency.  Considering all 4 players ahead of Simon in 2014 are still on the team, it's a safe bet to assume they weren't just throwing Simon to the side for the sake of it.

[757RavensFan]

Can't remember if I saw it on this website or somewhere else, but I thought I saw an article saying Urban got like 25 snaps against the Seahawks and only 12 or so against the Chiefs even though Chris Canty is on IR.  I don't know if Harbs had some reasoning behind that but at least just from an outside observer, I don't see any good reason for reducing a guys snap count who seems like he's only done things to earn more time

 

If Harbs is deciding snap counts for Urban, then he doesn't trust his coaching staff.  I understand Harbs making the call to bench Buck Allen after the fumble, but aside from that, I'm pretty sure he leaves it to his OC/DC to put the best players in the game that give them the best chance to win. Besides a player screwing up royally, I don't think Harbs interferes w/ who plays and how many plays they get. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by 757RavensFan

[RaineV1]

I think that's more Pees than Harbs, it just seems like Dean absolutely despises Brooks I really don't get it, at some point you have to see what you have in a higher draft pick, I think it's clear Kendrick Lewis is not the future.

Yeah, the DC probably has a lot more say in number of snaps per player than the HC. It's generally a good thing to have a headcoach that doesn't try to micromanage the offense or defense. The problem is that Harbs will continue to defend Pees, even when he's messing up.

[Clmraven]

Yeah, the DC probably has a lot more say in number of snaps per player than the HC. It's generally a good thing to have a headcoach that doesn't try to micromanage the offense or defense. The problem is that Harbs will continue to defend Pees, even when he's messing up.

And it seems he messes up quite a bit I might be biased because I really hope Pees gets gone this year, but he's just not getting it done I truly believe we enough good guys to at least be a decent defense. Pees can call some great games but then the next week he just blows it, the inconsistency is killing us. Frankly I'd rather go back to losing a DC every year or two than stay complacent and stick with a mediocre DC.

[52liveforever]

Wow, that's a lot of overreacting. As stated, Coordinators set the personnel packages, and Harbaugh is not a hands on coach so if anyone should get blame for who does or doesn't play on defense, that's Pees.

Second, Urban is fresh off a serious injury. Not a single person here knows whether or not he felt some pain or discomfort after the Seahawks game or during practice before the Chiefs game but you just want to assume Harbaugh is keeping him off the field for the fun of it.

And then someone even went as far as to say Harbaugh doesn't give players any snaps unless they first rounders. How can this be when some of the biggest complaints in recent years have been how Tandon Doss (4th), Asa Jackson (5th), David Reed (5th) and Chykie Brown (5th) were getting too many snaps and chances? When Pernell McPhee (5th) and Arthur Jones (5th) played so much and so well they were able to price their way out of town? Nick Boyle (5th) was placed ahead of Maxx Williams (2nd).

This season sucks. On many levels. But looking for reasons to be angry/upset and people to blame isn't going to make it better

I agree with a lot of this. I personally am a fan of Harbaughs as mentioned, but this season in my mind he has done some questionable things. He's been very inconsistent and has given Pees so many passes.

[Willbacker]

I'd like to see more snap distribution for the younger guys but lets save it for the last game whereas we face more mediocre offense plus I'd like to do everything we can to hurt the Steelers chances for a playoff berth.

[baltimorefan328]

different opponents who do different things on offense.

 

its not really that hard to understand TBH.

I didn't mean to make that a slight on Harbs I like him as a coach a lot.  I didn't know the OC/DC had as much say but still, then there's some disconnect between Harbs and the coordinators. Also I know it's different opponents but good players play against anyone, so I think it would be good to see if the young guys can dominate the player in front of them.  I don't think starters in the NFL change very often depending on the opponent, but that could be wrong.

[Tru11]

I didn't mean to make that a slight on Harbs I like him as a coach a lot.  I didn't know the OC/DC had as much say but still, then there's some disconnect between Harbs and the coordinators. Also I know it's different opponents but good players play against anyone, so I think it would be good to see if the young guys can dominate the player in front of them.  I don't think starters in the NFL change very often depending on the opponent, but that could be wrong.

 

depends on who you are talking and what their strengths are, not to mention what the opponent is doing.

 

a team like the hawks run a lot from base formations which means you yourself will be in base formations yourself and usually put in the guys who are good run stoppers.

 

then you have a team like the chiefs who loves to run PA and throw short passes and love 3 WR sets and such.

you are going to be in nickle more which means you will probably sacrifice 1 Dliners for a nickle corner.

 

just simple examples though.

 

also HC usually let their coordinators do the game planning and such and  they both rely on the position coaches to say who is ready to play and who aint.

 

harbaugh from what i know was a special teams coach so i dont think he is going to mingle alot with the offense and defense other then say lets go for it on 4th down and such.

[PurpleCity5]

Urban has done very well since his debut against Cleveland. Oz surely found a gem in him.

[Filmstudy]

The Urban snap counts have a pretty simple explanation.  My totals vary from other published sources, because they don't include penalties, kneels, spikes, or ST plays.  These are strictly meaningful, defensive snaps by game:

 

Cle: 11

Mia: 6

Sea: 29

KC: 11

 

Two things effect Urban's playing time significantly:

 

1.  The amount of snaps played in the nickel.  Urban doesn't typically play those yet, because Guy and Jernigan or just Jernigan among linemen get those snaps.

2.  The injury to Canty came in the Seattle game.  Urban's snap count was fairly normal until halftime, but 16 of his snaps came after Canty left the game in Q3.  The Seattle game was also an outlier because the Ravens played 4 DBs on 45 of 66 meaningful snaps. 

 

Honestly, I don't see a reason to be complaining about his playing time.  Carl Davis and Kapron have been the victims (in terms of playing time) of a very healthy set of defensive linemen.  In KLM's case, he's wasted his 3rd year in the league with just 49 snaps to date.

 

As to Brooks' playing time, that's more strange, but it doesn't directly relate to Brooks.

 

Hill and Lewis had not been playing every snap in the 2 games prior to last week, with each surrendering snaps to Webb at safety.  Harbaugh said Webb would move to safety and slot CB, but no longer play on the outside, where he was twice beaten for Seattle TD's.  However, when Jimmy Smith went down, Webb returned to outside corner (or SCB in the nickel) for every snap and Lewis/Hill played every snap at safety.  The one exception was a play where Brooks was in for Lewis after he went down and had to take a play off.

 

Looking at Brooks' season, the club is obviously unconvinced he can help on the back end, because they've pretty clearly demonstrated by action that they don't trust Hill and Lewis there.  

 

All of Brooks' snaps have come in a specialist role.  He played nickel (SCB) when the Ravens corner situation was most dire earlier in the year (36 snaps vs. Cle).  He spied Wilson for 6 snaps vs. Seattle, and he's played a handful of other snaps in injury relief.  But the key is that he hasn't really got a shot as a FS (his draft position) since his awful TD allowed to Colston at NO last season.  It wasn't JUST that play, or some lingering doghouse impact.  The guy is 4th among players trusted to play FS and I can only surmise that's what the coaches keep seeing in practice.

 

One thing holding back Brooks is the lack of 6 and 7-DB alignments by the Ravens.  If they played more dime and quarter, he'd get more chances, but Pees has just started to play a few such snaps (including 6 quarter sets versus Sea, all with Brooks as spy).

 

For those not familiar, I write a regular column on the defense each week.  Here is a link to the most recent, which has a heavy component on snaps played by young players:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/12/21/filmstudy/knowing-when-to-fold-em/

Edited December 26, 2015 by Filmstudy

[spitfire418]

The Urban snap counts have a pretty simple explanation.  My totals vary from other published sources, because they don't include penalties, kneels, spikes, or ST plays.  These are strictly meaningful, defensive snaps by game:

 

Cle: 11

Mia: 6

Sea: 29

KC: 11

 

Two things effect Urban's playing time significantly:

 

1.  The amount of snaps played in the nickel.  Urban doesn't typically play those yet, because Guy and Jernigan or just Jernigan among linemen get those snaps.

2.  The injury to Canty came in the Seattle game.  Urban's snap count was fairly normal until halftime, but 16 of his snaps came after Canty left the game in Q3.  The Seattle game was also an outlier because the Ravens played 4 DBs on 45 of 66 meaningful snaps. 

 

Honestly, I don't see a reason to be complaining about his playing time.  Carl Davis and Kapron have been the victims (in terms of playing time) of a very healthy set of defensive linemen.  In KLM's case, he's wasted his 3rd year in the league with just 49 snaps to date.

 

As to Brooks' playing time, that's more strange, but it doesn't directly relate to Brooks.

 

Hill and Lewis had not been playing every snap in the 2 games prior to last week, with each surrendering snaps to Webb at safety.  Harbaugh said Webb would move to safety and slot CB, but no longer play on the outside, where he was twice beaten for Seattle TD's.  However, when Jimmy Smith went down, Webb returned to outside corner (or SCB in the nickel) for every snap and Lewis/Hill played every snap at safety.  The one exception was a play where Brooks was in for Lewis after he went down and had to take a play off.

 

Looking at Brooks' season, the club is obviously unconvinced he can help on the back end, because they've pretty clearly demonstrated by action that they don't trust Hill and Lewis there.  

 

All of Brooks' snaps have come in a specialist role.  He played nickel (SCB) when the Ravens corner situation was most dire earlier in the year (36 snaps vs. Cle).  He spied Wilson for 6 snaps vs. Seattle, and he's played a handful of other snaps in injury relief.  But the key is that he hasn't really got a shot as a FS (his draft position) since his awful TD allowed to Colston at NO last season.  It wasn't JUST that play, or some lingering doghouse impact.  The guy is 4th among players trusted to play FS and I can only surmise that's what the coaches keep seeing in practice.

 

One thing holding back Brooks is the lack of 6 and 7-DB alignments by the Ravens.  If they played more dime and quarter, he'd get more chances, but Pees has just started to play a few such snaps (including 6 quarter sets versus Sea, all with Brooks as spy).

 

For those not familiar, I write a regular column on the defense each week.  Here is a link to the most recent, which has a heavy component on snaps played by young players:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/12/21/filmstudy/knowing-when-to-fold-em/

Brooks is not getting snaps at FS because of Kendrick Lewis is there. It's that simple. Lewis has a bigger contract (one that counted against comp picks), more experience than Brooks does. They didn't sign him and all that to bench the guy, even with how bad he's playing, which ruined Brooks' chance to see the field unless of injuries. Brooks came in when Lewis is down because he's the 2nd string FS and possibly SS if Hill went down. So it's not like Webb is the backup, it's just they like him back there on certain plays and want to see how he does back there. The coaches committed to Lewis and Hill at safety which basically gave Brooks no shot at playing time this season unless of injury which has happened, but very little. He only got to play last year because we had a safety rotation thing going on which was pretty stupid and I'm glad they changed that system. All I hope is that it's Brooks in Hill that are locked in as the starting safeties one day.

[Filmstudy]

Brooks is not getting snaps at FS because of Kendrick Lewis is there. It's that simple. Lewis has a bigger contract (one that counted against comp picks), more experience than Brooks does. They didn't sign him and all that to bench the guy, even with how bad he's playing, which ruined Brooks' chance to see the field unless of injuries. Brooks came in when Lewis is down because he's the 2nd string FS and possibly SS if Hill went down. So it's not like Webb is the backup, it's just they like him back there on certain plays and want to see how he does back there. The coaches committed to Lewis and Hill at safety which basically gave Brooks no shot at playing time this season unless of injury which has happened, but very little. He only got to play last year because we had a safety rotation thing going on which was pretty stupid and I'm glad they changed that system. All I hope is that it's Brooks in Hill that are locked in as the starting safeties one day.

 

You're saying some of the same things, but there are some important differences.  Pees has clearly demonstrated by action the exact pecking order at FS.  It's:

 

1.  Webb

2.  Lewis

3.  Hill

4-6.  Trawick, Levine, Brooks in an order not demonstrated recently.

 

First of all, Lewis' contract is not being considered as a reason to play him now.  The Ravens have some option value there, but will cut bait if they have to.  How do I know?  Because they've recently signed Hill to a much larger contract and have already started sitting him for a number of passing snaps.  If they'll ignore that sunk cost, they'll certainly ignore it for a smaller contract like Lewis'.

 

Hill played just 47 of 66 meaningful snaps versus Seattle and Lewis just 57.  When Webb moved to safety, who was replacing Hill?  It was effectively Kyle Arrington, who entered at corner for 14 snaps (6 quarter where both safeties were on and 8 nickel with Hill out).  The other snaps missed by the Lewis and Hill went to Wright when Webb moved to safety in a standard alignment with one of the other safeties and Smith/Wright at corner.

 

I suspect Pees and Harbaugh are upset with the safeties for the absurd total of 0 tip-drill interceptions (no interceptions where the first Ravens to touch the ball didn't do the intercepting) this season for the whole team.  It's a serious weakness of both players that they can't anticipate or position for tips/overthrows and those 2 have the largest responsibility for such plays.  And that weakness comes despite the fact they have been far from the worst defensive players on the team.