What changes do you want to see for next year? (Merged)

[Purple_City39]

What is his excuse this year besides the Sizzle injury?

I guess none.  A starting CB coming off one of the worst injuries a skill position player can have doesn't matter.  Having one talented pass rusher isn't really a problem either as no defense would look good with more than one pass rusher.  His #2 CB being inconsistent wouldn't impact the defense either.  It's only a passing league after all.  And then there's the many, and I mean many, first downs acquired by way of stupid penalty by players.  I'd mention the many missed tackles or corners getting burned on double moves, but Pees clearly coached that to happen also.

 

I guess there is no factor hurting the defense that is beyond Pees' control when you really think about it.......

[rmcjacket23]

That's what IR is for then if its so debilitating. Prior to any injury he wasn't anything to get excited about I have been pointing this very thing out out for years. Some folks even brought up how he "shutdown" AJ in a college match up...well terrific this is the NFL and he hasn't proven a thing as first rounder with that inflated contract. As soon as the FO understands he is just a an average schmuck then the secondary can move forward.

Yeah, I'm sure the fanbase will by more sympathetic to him if he's on IR not playing vs playing poorly.

 

Just like they were o so sympathetic to Breshad Perriman, calling him a bust before even watching him play.

 

The FO may already realize he is average, but that also doesn't change anything, because average corners are worth a good chunk of change in this league. Its pretty hard to find even average one's these days.

[52520Andrew]

I guess none. A starting CB coming off one of the worst injuries a skill position player can have doesn't matter. Having one talented pass rusher isn't really a problem either as no defense would look good with more than one pass rusher. His #2 CB being inconsistent wouldn't impact the defense either. It's only a passing league after all. And then there's the many, and I mean many, first downs acquired by way of stupid penalty by players. I'd mention the many missed tackles or corners getting burned on double moves, but Pees clearly coached that to happen also.

I guess there is no factor hurting the defense that is beyond Pees' control when you really think about it.......

Plenty of defenses are making do with worse, you wanna live in your own fantasy world and pretend we are the only defense that has problems be my guest. We still have Doom, Jernigan, Williams, Mosely, Buck, and Jimmy and Webb are both playing and Wright has been decent. I guess one injury and one player recovering from an injury is enough of an excuse for what should be a top defense on paper(like a lot of people were saying before the year started) to fall apart.

Also, penalties reflect on coaching, stupid penalty after stupid penalty is a coaching problem because the players aren't getting the message.

[Purple_City39]

That's what IR is for then if its so debilitating. Prior to any injury he wasn't anything to get excited about I have been pointing this very thing out out for years. Some folks even brought up how he "shutdown" AJ in a college match up...well terrific this is the NFL and he hasn't proven a thing as first rounder with that inflated contract. As soon as the FO understands he is just a an average schmuck then the secondary can move forward.

Prior to injury in 2014, AJ Green, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, and Kelvin Benjamin combined for 6 catches and 45 yards against Jimmy Smith.  But yeah, nothing to get excited about.  

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/2015-preview/bs-sp-ravens-jimmy-smith-20150908-story.html

[52520Andrew]

Lets take a look at a side that is really devestated by injuries in the offense.

The starting QB, top 2 RBs, top 2 WRs, Top TE with the other 3 being in and out, LT, C, and the LG being in and out.

[Purple_City39]

Plenty of defenses are making do with worse, you wanna live in your own fantasy world and pretend we are the only defense that has problems be my guest. We still have Doom, Jernigan, Williams, Mosely, Buck, and Jimmy and Webb are both playing and Wright has been decent. I guess one injury and one player recovering from an injury is enough of an excuse for what should be a top defense on paper(like a lot of people were saying before the year started) to fall apart.

Also, penalties reflect on coaching, stupid penalty after stupid penalty is a coaching problem because the players aren't getting the message.

Which defenses are succeeding with no pass rushers?  Also, I forgot to mention the many turnovers missed all season.  I guess defenders not catching is also Pees' fault.

 

Also, did you also blame the coaches when Billick and Rex fielded some of the most undisciplined Ravens defenses in history while Reed, Lewis, Suggs, etc were all starting?  Also, naming players doesn't make them great.  Doom is the only pass rusher but a liability in coverage and against the run.  I guess being good at 1 out of 3 things (his entire career), is Dean's fault too.  Jernigan has been inconsistent and was benched by John at one point.  Williams isn't a pass rusher but great against the run.  Buck and Mosely have been inconsistent, especially in the passing game.  

[DomMcRaven]

To answer the OP's question, the biggest change I want to see is on defense. While I'm done with Pees, we just need to have a secondary that we can rely on to stay healthy week by week. 

[OptimisticRaven]

Defense. It's not good enough to stop points from being scored - they have to score the points as well like Ed Reed and company used to do. I don't know how they get there - whether it be firing the DC or drafting exclusively defensive players or getting a bunch of quality FA's.... but I'd like to see that get done.

I feel like if that is patched and solid - we already have a good special teams group. The offense could revert back to game-management mode. Let's ride that into the playoffs. It's worked for us in the past.

[JoeyFlex5]

That's what IR is for then if its so debilitating. Prior to any injury he wasn't anything to get excited about I have been pointing this very thing out out for years. Some folks even brought up how he "shutdown" AJ in a college match up...well terrific this is the NFL and he hasn't proven a thing as first rounder with that inflated contract. As soon as the FO understands he is just a an average schmuck then the secondary can move forward.

his resume speaks for itself. he struggled as a rookie and dealt with injuries, in his 2nd year he became a little more consistent and caught fire in the playoffs, sparked some confidence, and he put together a hell of a 2013 season against a daunting list of wr's, and was continuing that same high level play before the lisfranc injury happened. he has been able to take the field, but its a long rehab process that requires reps to get back to playing comfortably. 

 

if it wasnt for his injury then everyone would be singing his praises just like they were in 2013 and the first half of 2014, he didnt just regress for no reason, and its not a coincidence he was putting together a brilliant couple of seasons and has regressed since the lisfranc, his regression is a direct result of the injury. but if you wanna continue to believe a guy who shut down brandon marshall, calvin johnson, antonio brown twice, josh gordon, and deandre hopkins all in the same season, is just a regular schmuck, than continue to be blinded by your hatred, youll just continue to be wrong. 

[Purple_City39]

Pees is an average DC in my eyes. Nothing more, nothing less. When he has quality players he looks good, when he has mediocre or worse players he looks mediocre or worse.

 

Ironically, based on what I've seen so far, I'd put Rex Ryan and Chuck Pagano in that same place as well. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be impressed by with either of those guys. Pagano has had a pretty bad defense since showing up in Indy, and Rex Ryan has the most talented defense in the league playing as badly as they possibly can.

Well, if you view them all on the same level (which I do too actually) then I don't disagree.  It just baffles me when people talk about how good other DCs where here but don't factor in how those DCs looked when they didn't have the ridiculous amount of defensive talent Ozzie gave them.  You'd swear they all fielded top 10 units with the level of talent Dean currently has the way people talk

[52520Andrew]

Which defenses are succeeding with no pass rushers? Also, I forgot to mention the many turnovers missed all season. I guess defenders not catching is also Pees' fault.

Also, did you also blame the coaches when Billick and Rex fielded some of the most undisciplined Ravens defenses in history while Reed, Lewis, Suggs, etc were all starting? Also, naming players doesn't make them great. Doom is the only pass rusher but a liability in coverage and against the run. I guess being good at 1 out of 3 things (his entire career), is Dean's fault too. Jernigan has been inconsistent and was benched by John at one point. Williams isn't a pass rusher but great against the run. Buck and Mosely have been inconsistent, especially in the passing game.

So now it is no pass rushers lol, which is it?

We haven't had turnovers for years, doubt that all comes down to drops.

Yeah I do, Billick lost the team in 2007 which is why he is gone. Don't try to paint me into a corner like that.

Those guys form a solid enough core. And since we all know what Doom can do, maybe use him as a pass rusher as opposed to dropping him into coverage? Using players to their strengths is what good coaches do.

[Drew P]

Prior to injury in 2014, AJ Green, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, and Kelvin Benjamin combined for 6 catches and 45 yards against Jimmy Smith.  But yeah, nothing to get excited about.  

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/2015-preview/bs-sp-ravens-jimmy-smith-20150908-story.html

 

Wonderful, 3 good games, (Benjamin, get real) I remember Frank Walker having at least 3 good games. Keep in mind they also had a decent rush with McPhee being literally unstoppable. Sorry, not buying into a guy that hasn't proven he can stay healthy in this league.

[52520Andrew]

And just for the record, here are my thoughts on bringing Rex or Pags back.

Rex is turning one of the best defenses on paper in the Bills into a pretty bad unit that gets beat by Cousins.

I shouldn't have to get into the Colts defense too much when bringing up Pagano, they have been terrible. Their talent isn't the best but they just let Weeden lead a game winning drive on them after giving up 50 to the Jags last week.

[Purple_City39]

So now it is no pass rushers lol, which is it?

We haven't had turnovers for years, doubt that all comes down to drops.

Yeah I do, Billick lost the team in 2007 which is why he is gone. Don't try to paint me into a corner like that.

Those guys form a solid enough core. And since we all know what Doom can do, maybe use him as a pass rusher as opposed to dropping him into coverage? Using players to their strengths is what good coaches do.

1. Adding an "lol" doesn't strengthen an argument.  Are you implying that you feel this defense has enough good pass rushers?

 

2.  The Ravens are boarding on NFL history worst turnovers numbers and you say we haven't had turnovers for years?  INT totals going back to 2010 in reverse order:  4, 11, 16, 13, 15, 19.  You're right, same as every year.....

 

3.  So Billick received blame for the 2007 undisciplined team while Rex stayed on, yet you're blaming Pees now?

 

4. A solid core?  In a passing league, you're pointing out how great the unit is because of a run stopping NT, 2 run stopping ILBs that struggle in coverage, and 1 pass rusher who also can't cover along with a CB coming off a serious injury and another CB who's inconsistent in coverage?  Is it even a surprise that this defense struggles against the pass?  

[DomMcRaven]

And just for the record, here are my thoughts on bringing Rex or Pags back.

Rex is turning one of the best defenses on paper in the Bills into a pretty bad unit that gets beat by Cousins.

I shouldn't have to get into the Colts defense too much when bringing up Pagano, they have been terrible. Their talent isn't the best but they just let Weeden lead a game winning drive on them after giving up 50 to the Jags last week.

Just curious: if Pees were to be let go, who would you consider as a replacement?

[Purple_City39]

Wonderful, 3 good games, (Benjamin, get real) I remember Frank Walker having at least 3 good games. Keep in mind they also had a decent rush with McPhee being literally unstoppable. Sorry, not buying into a guy that hasn't proven he can stay healthy in this league.

I'm pretty sure you refuse to be objective, but here's a link that covers 2013, 2014, and far more than 3 games and three opponents.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2516681-is-jimmy-smith-the-nfls-best-kept-secret-at-cornerback

 

P.S. interesting how you go from basically saying he's done nothing to get excited about to saying he didn't do enough.  Will you read the link and then say it was only a year and a half?  

[Purple_City39]

And just for the record, here are my thoughts on bringing Rex or Pags back.

Rex is turning one of the best defenses on paper in the Bills into a pretty bad unit that gets beat by Cousins.

I shouldn't have to get into the Colts defense too much when bringing up Pagano, they have been terrible. Their talent isn't the best but they just let Weeden lead a game winning drive on them after giving up 50 to the Jags last week.

So we agree any and all DCs need proper talent.  I just can't fathom that anyone thinks this defense has enough talent.

Again, a passing league.  Ignoring the d-line, Kendrick Lewis, CJ Mosely, Darryl Smith, Courtney Upshaw, and Elvis Dumervil can't cover, period.  Jimmy Smith is coming off a horrible injury for a CB and still showing lingering effects.  Lardarius Webb has been inconsistent his entire career outside of 2012.  That's the 7 starters who will drop into coverage.  It's all the DCs fault!!!!!

[52520Andrew]

1. Adding an "lol" doesn't strengthen an argument. Are you implying that you feel this defense has enough good pass rushers?

2. The Ravens are boarding on NFL history worst turnovers numbers and you say we haven't had turnovers for years? INT totals going back to 2010 in reverse order: 4, 11, 16, 13, 15, 19. You're right, same as every year.....

3. So Billick received blame for the 2007 undisciplined team while Rex stayed on, yet you're blaming Pees now?

4. A solid core? In a passing league, you're pointing out how great the unit is because of a run stopping NT, 2 run stopping ILBs that struggle in coverage, and 1 pass rusher who also can't cover along with a CB coming off a serious injury and another CB who's inconsistent in coverage? Is it even a surprise that this defense struggles against the pass?

Are you trying to say we have no pass rushers and then say Doom is only a pass rusher? Sorry but that is just funny

Jerniagn is a good interior pass rusher as well. We could use a compliment for sure but that is a decent tandem.

Yeah weird how they have dropped off from the 19 in 2010. We dropped ints back then too. If DBs were supposed to catch the ball everytime, they would be WRs.

I'd put blame on Rex as well for 2007 and I'd put blame on Pees and even Harbs for allowing these dumb penalties to happen. Whatever they are doing, it isn't enough. I just posted my thoughts on Rex earlier, are you obsessed with the guy or something?

Oh yeah because the 3-4 OLB is such an important coverage position lol. Great stuff. Daryl Smith is a decent coverage linebacker and while Mosely has struggled there, we have another guy in Hill who has shown to be able to hang with the TE(New Orleans last year). Lewis isn't a great safety but there are worse guys out there. And our corners this year are much better than last year. This defense was hailed as one of the top defenses on paper this year and everyone said this would be the year where the defense does something. And here we are.

You really think Pees is good enough to take a defense to another level like what we need or do you think he is just a guy? It is the job of a DC to get the best out of his guys, when a defense that was one of the top defenses on paper comes out and does awful, that is pretty telling.

[52520Andrew]

So we agree any and all DCs need proper talent. I just can't fathom that anyone thinks this defense has enough talent.

Again, a passing league. Ignoring the d-line, Kendrick Lewis, CJ Mosely, Darryl Smith, Courtney Upshaw, and Elvis Dumervil can't cover, period. Jimmy Smith is coming off a horrible injury for a CB and still showing lingering effects. Lardarius Webb has been inconsistent his entire career outside of 2012. That's the 7 starters who will drop into coverage. It's all the DCs fault!!!!!

Compared to what the Steelers are throwing out there, I'd take our guys. Or the Redskins. Did you see the Eagles secondary last night? Or the Dolphins defense? We just paid Jimmy big time money didn't we?

And where did I say anything about proper talent? Good coaches do more with less.

Edited December 21, 2015 by 52520Andrew

[Drew P]

I'm pretty sure you refuse to be objective, but here's a link that covers 2013, 2014, and far more than 3 games and three opponents.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2516681-is-jimmy-smith-the-nfls-best-kept-secret-at-cornerback

 

P.S. interesting how you go from basically saying he's done nothing to get excited about to saying he didn't do enough.  Will you read the link and then say it was only a year and a half?  

 

The article says he's been inconsistent and cant stay healthy. I already knew that what is your point that he kept Hakeem Nicks in check? The point is they cant be going into 2016 expecting him to be a lock down #1 CB.

[52520Andrew]

Just curious: if Pees were to be let go, who would you consider as a replacement?

Personally I would go to the college ranks. The Clemson DC is a guy who has impressed me(forget his name). A bit risky to go to the college ranks but we need a young guy who can bring a spark to the defense and maybe provide a wrinkle we haven't seen in the NFL. Lots of good guys out there to be frank, Steelers guy isn't doing bad with what they have. We just need a change in the defense, just gotten too stale.

[Deflated Football]

Prior to injury in 2014, AJ Green, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, and Kelvin Benjamin combined for 6 catches and 45 yards against Jimmy Smith. But yeah, nothing to get excited about.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/2015-preview/bs-sp-ravens-jimmy-smith-20150908-story.html

Right, but what he did in the past is not going to help us in the future. He's looked bad this year and he's always bit by the injury bug and his injury from last year could very well linger for his entire career.

[Purple_City39]

Are you trying to say we have no pass rushers and then say Doom is only a pass rusher? Sorry but that is just funny

Jerniagn is a good interior pass rusher as well. We could use a compliment for sure but that is a decent tandem.

Yeah weird how they have dropped off from the 19 in 2010. We dropped ints back then too. If DBs were supposed to catch the ball everytime, they would be WRs.

I'd put blame on Rex as well for 2007 and I'd put blame on Pees and even Harbs for allowing these dumb penalties to happen. Whatever they are doing, it isn't enough. I just posted my thoughts on Rex earlier, are you obsessed with the guy or something?

Oh yeah because the 3-4 OLB is such an important coverage position lol. Great stuff. Daryl Smith is a decent coverage linebacker and while Mosely has struggled there, we have another guy in Hill who has shown to be able to hang with the TE(New Orleans last year). Lewis isn't a great safety but there are worse guys out there. And our corners this year are much better than last year. This defense was hailed as one of the top defenses on paper this year and everyone said this would be the year where the defense does something. And here we are.

You really think Pees is good enough to take a defense to another level like what we need or do you think he is just a guy? It is the job of a DC to get the best out of his guys, when a defense that was one of the top defenses on paper comes out and does awful, that is pretty telling.

Wow.  So one pass rusher is enough in your eyes?  Gotcha

 

Yes, they dropped INTs when the year they ended the season with 19.  They currently have 4 with two games left.  Keeping acting like it's all the same.  This team has dropped more INTs this year than in any year in recent memory.  If they simply catch half the ones they dropped, we win many more games and the unit looks better.

 

I mention Rex a few times and I'm obsessed?  Does the same apply to your constant hate of Pees?  The point was simple, no DC fields a good unit without enough talent.  The fact that the Ravens are currently ranked 14th is amazing enough with the lack of talent outside of run defense.

 

You do realize that in 2015, 3-4 OLBs drop in coverage a lot right?  I mean, you really made that statement, wow.  "There are worse guys than Lewis", wow.  Compelling argument.  Hill had a good coverage game in 2014 (overblown since he gave up 2 TDs).  Name two other games he covered well in.  And have you watched D.Smith this season or you holding on to the past like you are with Hill?

 

Who thought the defense would be one of the best on paper?  Lost McPhee and Ngata.  J.Smith coming off a lisfranc.  L.Webb cleared slowing down to end last season.  Hoping K.Lewis would be decent.  Anybody that didn't come into this season thinking this defense had to prove itself was delusional.

 

I think Pees is on the level of most DCs.  With talent, he'll do well (see first 8 games of 2014).  Without talent, the unit will fail (see second half of 2014).  

[Purple_City39]

The article says he's been inconsistent and cant stay healthy. I already knew that what is your point that he kept Hakeem Nicks in check? The point is they cant be going into 2016 expecting him to be a lock down #1 CB.

Hakeem Nicks is your argument?  Ok so you'll let your bias shine through with no objectivity.  I guess we're done here

 

Right, but what he did in the past is not going to help us in the future. He's looked bad this year and he's always bit by the injury bug and his injury from last year could very well linger for his entire career.

Don't get me wrong, I agree.  That was in regards to someone saying Jimmy has never shown anything to be excited about.  A comment encompassing the player's entire career received a response in turn.  He's been average this year, but considering the injury I'm not surprised.

[ravensdfan]

And yet, to start 2014 with his better players healthy, the defense gave up a whopping 15.5 points per game the first 8 games.  For comparison's sake, the much acclaimed 2011 defense with Pagano (and healthy players) gave up 15.6 points per game the first 8 games.   Rex's 2008 defense (again mostly healthy), gave up 16.5 points per game over the first 8 games

 

So this terrible coordinator managed to do as well (actually better) with a healthy defense (that had freaking Matt Elam and Chykie Brown starting) as the much loved and praised Chuck Pagano and Rex Ryan did.  And then, apparently unlike any other DC anywhere, his defense became worse when critical players got injured.  FIRE PEES!11!!!1!

 

But we'll ignore how well his defense has played when he's had healthy and comparable talent to past DCs.  It's all his fault.......

Why you going back to last season? Why aren't you using this season? Nice cherry picking there. Still even that year, Chargers, Bengals, 2 14 pt leads given up in the playoffs, Cowboys.

 

Interesting. I used games from Pees entire time here - I didn't cherry pick seasons. The fact still remains his defense folds in the 4th quarter consistently since 2012 when he took over. The numbers are there. You can check them yourself. And that number doesn't even take into consideration 4th quarter leads the defense blew and the offense managed to take the lead a 2nd time and win.

Edited December 21, 2015 by ravensdfan

[wizard1]

Wow.  So one pass rusher is enough in your eyes?  Gotcha

 

Yes, they dropped INTs when the year they ended the season with 19.  They currently have 4 with two games left.  Keeping acting like it's all the same.  This team has dropped more INTs this year than in any year in recent memory.  If they simply catch half the ones they dropped, we win many more games and the unit looks better.

 

I mention Rex a few times and I'm obsessed?  Does the same apply to your constant hate of Pees?  The point was simple, no DC fields a good unit without enough talent.  The fact that the Ravens are currently ranked 14th is amazing enough with the lack of talent outside of run defense.

 

You do realize that in 2015, 3-4 OLBs drop in coverage a lot right?  I mean, you really made that statement, wow.  "There are worse guys than Lewis", wow.  Compelling argument.  Hill had a good coverage game in 2014 (overblown since he gave up 2 TDs).  Name two other games he covered well in.  And have you watched D.Smith this season or you holding on to the past like you are with Hill?

 

Who thought the defense would be one of the best on paper?  Lost McPhee and Ngata.  J.Smith coming off a lisfranc.  L.Webb cleared slowing down to end last season.  Hoping K.Lewis would be decent.  Anybody that didn't come into this season thinking this defense had to prove itself was delusional.

 

I think Pees is on the level of most DCs.  With talent, he'll do well (see first 8 games of 2014).  Without talent, the unit will fail (see second half of 2014).  

 

How's this for a defensive front next year. Jerrnigan, Williams and Bosa. YESSSS

[Purple_City39]

Why you going back to last season? Why aren't you using this season? Nice cherry picking there. Still even that year, Chargers, Bengals, 2 14 pt leads given up in the playoffs, Cowboys.

 

Interesting. I used games from Pees entire time here - I didn't cherry pick seasons. The fact still remains his defense folds in the 4th quarter consistently since 2012 when he took over. The numbers are there. You can check them yourself. And that number doesn't even take into consideration 4th quarter leads the defense blew and the offense managed to take the lead a 2nd time and win.

You are right.  Why would I go back to the last time Pees has had a pretty healthy and talented defense when making an argument about how he can field a top rated unit with healthy and talented players........

 

Let's ignore that and only look at the horribly injured/lack of talent teams he's had and act like doesn't make a difference.  My apologies

Edited December 21, 2015 by Purple_City39

[rmcjacket23]

Lets take a look at a side that is really devestated by injuries in the offense.

The starting QB, top 2 RBs, top 2 WRs, Top TE with the other 3 being in and out, LT, C, and the LG being in and out.

I mean, this is true, but again, the offense was largely healthy for about the first third of the season, and while I didn't think their offense played bad, the team itself wasn't very good.

 

At this point, we know what the offense is... its garbage. There's probably half the offense right now who is starting that for sure won't start next season and some of them may not even be on the roster. 

 

The defense, on the other hand, is arguably about as healthy as any defense can be at this point in the year. Its just not very good, or at least, is very inconsistent.

[ravensdfan]

You are right.  Why would I go back to the last time Pees has had a pretty healthy and talented defense when making an argument about how he can field a top rated unit with healthy and talented players........

 

Let's ignore that and only look at the horribly injured/lack of talent teams he's had and act like doesn't make a difference.  My apologies

Who is injured this season? That did not happen within the last 2 games.

 

You are still ignoring the obvious - his defense cannot close out games. Period. That relates directly to scheme, lack of creativity and just downright scared play calling. Which is directly on the DC.

Edited December 21, 2015 by ravensdfan

[Deflated Football]

Hakeem Nicks is your argument?  Ok so you'll let your bias shine through with no objectivity.  I guess we're done here

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree.  That was in regards to someone saying Jimmy has never shown anything to be excited about.  A comment encompassing the player's entire career received a response in turn.  He's been average this year, but considering the injury I'm not surprised.

My bad. Didn't see the other persons comment.