[News] Funny Pages: So ... When Can We Challenge Penalties?

[BR News]

And, congratulations! the Ravens are officially the NFL's leading team in players on injured reserve.

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[Mike B]

The more I look at the Daniel Brown play, the madder I get.

[jravens13]

You should be able to challenge PI's. You can in the CFL. Coaches will not waste challenges because they might need them later and they cost a timeout. More things should be reviewable by coaches.

[balfan23]

I'd like to say that allowing PI to be reviewed would solve the problems on officiating, but it is only the tip of the iceberg. There is just something fundamentally wrong with the officials and I have no idea what is at play here. I will normally first blame incompetence rather than malice to such things, but it has been so far out of whack, I don't know what to make of it.

 

Just listen to Elvis' comments in the press conference. Across the board, fans, players and coaches all feel like we're at the center of some screw job. No idea how we got here or how we get out, but this CAN'T continue into next year or it will become very challenging to continue to watch this game.

[chuchu707]

if it werent for the refs ravens will be 7-5 smh

[OnlyRavensFanInFlorida]

..... I just submitted 5 votes for Justin Tucker and Sam Koch, I hope they make the pro-bowl and don't end up on IR like the other half of our team. GO RAVENS!!!

[rmcjacket23]

If PI were challengable, you will see an INCREASE in PI penalties being called.

 

I don't understand why people don't get this. 

 

The only calls that coaches will win when challenging a PI penalty is, quite literally, when there is absolutely no contact between the two players. 

 

This solves nothing, and causes more problems. Naturally, fans love it.

[mendii]

I was at the game Sunday, and from where I was sitting in the stands I knew as soon as the flag was thrown that they were calling OPI, but I also disagreed with the call immediately. What that camera angle (the only one we are shown here) doesn't show is the extension of Brown's right arm into the Dolphin defender. Upon replay, even at the best angle it was clear that Brown's "interference" has little to nothing to do with the Dolphin defender falling over, or even that it was useful in gaining separation on the play, to me it looked like the defender flopped. But hey, that's the nature of the game now, if we were on defense in that situation we'd show the camera angle that makes it look most blatant and cry that the world was against us too. That call didn't cost us the game, can we talk about bad Schaub actually is?

[reed20fence]

If PI were challengable, you will see an INCREASE in PI penalties being called.

I don't understand why people don't get this.

The only calls that coaches will win when challenging a PI penalty is, quite literally, when there is absolutely no contact between the two players.

This solves nothing, and causes more problems. Naturally, fans love it.

At this stage it's not about increased PI calls in favor of the offense (we also play offense), it's about having some form, any form, of help for the refs to slow things down and get the call right. It's gotten to the point where the last straw that'll break this camels back is Balndino himself saying that PI should be reviewable, regardless of who it favors.

Think about it, everyone admits that these players are getting bigger, stronger, and most importantly, FASTER. Everything from protection rules to combine times are evidence to this fact. But what's the one aspect of this game that's stubbornly refusing to evolve and use all the tools available to us to protect the integrity of game outcomes? Officiating.

The CFL has evolved. The NCAA has evolved. Why can't the NFL evolve?

Make it challengable and put the onus on the coaches to save their challenges.

Edited December 10, 2015 by reed20fence

[ciro]

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2015/12/10/9860970/blind-sight-in-hindsight-a-look-back-at-a-season-of-phantomcalls

baltimore beatdown actually walks you through 6 game changing blown calls against the ravens with video and gifs if you want to have a good cleansing cry, go ahead and read it

[NCMan]

I, like others, also agree that something is up w/the officiating this season and even into last season. I'm not sure what to do to make it better, but the NFL is going to lose viewers. I happen to know a few people that have stopped watching. They have more than a few choice words when it comes to that subject, but that kind of language is frowned upon on here, as it should be. I do think it's time for the refs to be full time and to be held much more accountable for the job they do. Enough is enough.

Edited December 10, 2015 by NCMan

[Jokerraven]

Two games lost to the refs and a horrific amount of injuries equals one bad season. I'm a fan thick and thin. I look forward to this post every week its hilarious.

[rmcjacket23]

At this stage it's not about increased PI calls in favor of the offense (we also play offense), it's about having some form, any form, of help for the refs to slow things down and get the call right. It's gotten to the point where the last straw that'll break this camels back is Balndino himself saying that PI should be reviewable, regardless of who it favors.

Think about it, everyone admits that these players are getting bigger, stronger, and most importantly, FASTER. Everything from protection rules to combine times are evidence to this fact. But what's the one aspect of this game that's stubbornly refusing to evolve and use all the tools available to us to protect the integrity of game outcomes? Officiating.

The CFL has evolved. The NCAA has evolved. Why can't the NFL evolve?

Make it challengable and put the onus on the coaches to save their challenges.

Sure, but that comes at a cost. That cost, in particular, is time, something the NFL and fans aren't interested in expanding. 

 

I personally think a lot of this is overblown. I think you are seeing some bad calls at key spots in the game, which amplifies the problem, but we already have confirmation that officials aren't really making any more mistakes than they previously have been, so its not a case where the officials are really getting worse.

 

You could actually, and I've seen a couple websites outline this, make an argument that the solution to this problem is to eliminate instant replay all together. If you really think about it, instant replay sort of launched this whole concept of "the refs suck" anyway, because prior to that, officials were still making mistakes. 

 

The two biggest pushes for this largely are 1. TV networks showing 10 versions of replay for literally every play, something that didn't exist previously and 2. Instant replay.

 

At the end of the day, they shouldn't really be considering the fans opinions on this to begin with. Ask coaches, players, and people in the business. I think you'd find, overall, that players and coaches would complain more about the rules themselves than the actual enforcement of them. I think they generally understand how difficult the job is for the officials, and certainly more so than fans do.

 

Fans expect perfection, because they can get it from their couch without having to do anything to get it. They can just watch a TV network show them replay after replay after replay of the same play from dozens of angles, and they can get that within seconds.

 

Nobody on that playing field has that capability, which is something I think fans forget all too often.

[Crusader]

Stop with the injuries. Ravens were losing long before the injuries started. Keep making excuses and you never face the facts.

[FloridalovesRavens]

The facts are that this team has been snake bitten with injuries to most of our starters. They have also been targeted by the refs in a bias and unfair manner all season long. Some fans do not want to face these facts and would never have a good thing to say of this team regardless. Whether you believe it or not this team has courage and guts with a never give up attitude. I for one applaud them. Go Ravens.

[reed20fence]

http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2015/12/10/9860970/blind-sight-in-hindsight-a-look-back-at-a-season-of-phantomcalls baltimore beatdown actually walks you through 6 game changing blown calls against the ravens with video and gifs if you want to have a good cleansing cry, go ahead and read it

Like the author says, he could have cited more examples from each of those games but he limited himself to one. The interesting thing to note here is that while the non-PI/illegal contact examples vary vastly, 4 out of the 7 examples he provides are essentially PI or defensive holding penalties. Which just further goes to demonstrate that it's these "judgment call" type scenarios by the refs that are causing the most consternation and having the largest impact on swaying outcomes.

Ravens fans should be honest and upfront about this issue, for the last few years we all sat back and cheered and lauded the fact that Torrey would lead the league in drawn PI flags... now that we're the victims we're the loudest advocates against ticky-tacky PI flagging.

Also if you want to take a more Machiavellian look at whether things could change going forward, consider that the Competition Committee responsible for bringing these rule changes to all the teams to vote on consists of Front Office staff from the Falcons (who have Julio Jones), Giants (ODB), Cowboys (Bryant), Packers (Rodgers and crew), Bengals (AJ Green) and Steelers (Antonio Brown et al) in addition to Ozzie representing us. He is vastly outnumbered by those who have no interest in weakening the position of their marquee playmakers at the WR position.

Our best bet is to get Perriman back and pray that he can still run a 4.24 40, and add some more weapons for Joe. That way we can take advantage of the ticky-tacky just like everyone else.  

[poescrows]

That gif of the dog checking to make sure he was in hell made me laugh out loud......thanx Ben!

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Stop with the injuries. Ravens were losing long before the injuries started. Keep making excuses and you never face the facts.

So we were losing before training camp? Perriman in TC, Suggs 1st game, Jernigan was hurt early. SSS was hurt a cpl games into the season, then returned for a bit before ending his season entirely. By the Browns game we had Jimmy Smith and then the next 4 corners were out injured. 

 

Gillmore was injured early as was Pitta. Tali was injured early. Brooks injured. 

 

Yea we were losing long before Flacco and Forsett went down. But we lost the most irreplaceable and important player on defense in the 1st game, and arguably one of the most important offensive pieces before the season began. And then we lost an important player almost every game after that.

[Dorota]

I advise the last one to a lot of the fans.

[dollyssara]

Amen!!!! Uncle Buck...Raven Fan to the end..... and then a Zombie Raven Fan...

[RicknRoll]

The system really needs to be fixed. The technology is available. I don't mind loosing a game fair and square. But on on some bogus call when a Ref threw a flag on what he thought he saw. I mean we see 40 yard penalties on judgement calls, and they are not reviewable. That is outrageous! No one is worried about time. If they are they are not real fans of the sport anyway. Make the Refs full time, pay them well and make them accountable. Too many game are decided by the Refs and not the players.

[RicknRoll]

Come to think of it, the Detroit Lions got Ripped Off from going to the playoffs Two Years in a row directly by Poor Officiating. Now that's Outrageous!

[rmcjacket23]

The system really needs to be fixed. The technology is available. I don't mind loosing a game fair and square. But on on some bogus call when a Ref threw a flag on what he thought he saw. I mean we see 40 yard penalties on judgement calls, and they are not reviewable. That is outrageous! No one is worried about time. If they are they are not real fans of the sport anyway. Make the Refs full time, pay them well and make them accountable. Too many game are decided by the Refs and not the players.

I can assure yout that the overwhelming majority of fans care very, very, very much about time. Having enough free time to spend watching a 5 or 6 hour football game doesn't in any way make you a "real fan". In fact, I'd argue a "real fan" is the type of fan smart enough to know that reviewing every play for accuracy doesn't benefit literally anyone.

[reed20fence]

I can assure yout that the overwhelming majority of fans care very, very, very much about time. Having enough free time to spend watching a 5 or 6 hour football game doesn't in any way make you a "real fan". In fact, I'd argue a "real fan" is the type of fan smart enough to know that reviewing every play for accuracy doesn't benefit literally anyone.

No one is talking about reviewing every play. That's why it makes sense to link replay-ability to coaches challenges, which by their nature are limited in number.

Also, the idea that fans don't want to spend more than 3.5 hours watching football is bunk. If that were the case every single game would be on at the same mid-day time slot with people only tuning in to watch their own team play. The NFL knows that's not how fans watch football. People start at noon eastern and can (and millions do) literally have games on or playing in the background until the final whistle of Sunday Night Football -- thats 10 hours. And then they tune in again for MNF which, aside from the Super Bowl, tends to have some of the year's highest Nielsen ratings. ESPN doesn't spend a billion dollars to secure exclusive rights to a game every week because they expect just the fans of some dinky small market teams to tune in. They know they have a captive national audience every Monday. Also, if it were true that only the fans of the teams involved tune in to watch the games, and they don't watch multiple games a weekend, then the entire concept of "flexing" crappy teams out of prime time slots wouldn't have any logic.

I'm sorry but this idea that people only want to be entertained for a couple of hours one day a week just doesn't hold any water. If that were the case the NFL wouldn't be an mutli billion dollar, vastly expanding business.

Edited December 11, 2015 by reed20fence

[stampedehero]

The IR count and the Uncle Buck  John Candy skit with our issue are the best.   Hey ........at least we are first at something.....like players on IR.  

[stampedehero]

I can assure yout that the overwhelming majority of fans care very, very, very much about time. Having enough free time to spend watching a 5 or 6 hour football game doesn't in any way make you a "real fan". In fact, I'd argue a "real fan" is the type of fan smart enough to know that reviewing every play for accuracy doesn't benefit literally anyone.

Rmc...... Could a real fan also expect and predict the play that benefits or in our case deflects success.  For example in the Miami game, I sat there in the hot humid sun thinking we have to punch in a 3rd Q TD or the tide is against us since we spotted them 15 at the end of the 2nd Q. Then with comparison I thought, "Why do other teams have success and we screw it up"  The bottom line: We know the situation, we expect the coaching staff to institute the obvious and then we as fans, envision what happens next.   Whats your opinion?  Thnx

[Moderator 3]

Rmc...... Could a real fan also expect and predict the play that benefits or in our case deflects success.  For example in the Miami game, I sat there in the hot humid sun thinking we have to punch in a 3rd Q TD or the tide is against us since we spotted them 15 at the end of the 2nd Q. Then with comparison I thought, "Why do other teams have success and we screw it up"  The bottom line: We know the situation, we expect the coaching staff to institute the obvious and then we as fans, envision what happens next.   Whats your opinion?  Thnx

If you two would like to discuss this in depth, please take it to PM.

[rmcjacket23]

No one is talking about reviewing every play. That's why it makes sense to link replay-ability to coaches challenges, which by their nature are limited in number.

Also, the idea that fans don't want to spend more than 3.5 hours watching football is bunk. If that were the case every single game would be on at the same mid-day time slot with people only tuning in to watch their own team play. The NFL knows that's not how fans watch football. People start at noon eastern and can (and millions do) literally have games on or playing in the background until the final whistle of Sunday Night Football -- thats 10 hours. And then they tune in again for MNF which, aside from the Super Bowl, tends to have some of the year's highest Nielsen ratings. ESPN doesn't spend a billion dollars to secure exclusive rights to a game every week because they expect just the fans of some dinky small market teams to tune in. They know they have a captive national audience every Monday. Also, if it were true that only the fans of the teams involved tune in to watch the games, and they don't watch multiple games a weekend, then the entire concept of "flexing" crappy teams out of prime time slots wouldn't have any logic.

I'm sorry but this idea that people only want to be entertained for a couple of hours one day a week just doesn't hold any water. If that were the case the NFL wouldn't be an mutli billion dollar, vastly expanding business.

Yes, but there's a big difference in me watching a Ravens game and me watching a Lions game. I spend actual attention on watching the Ravens play. I watch every play and am engage in what's going on. Whether I have another game on in the background all day and am doing 12 different other things while occasionally looking at it isnt the same as watching it.

 

Yes, I understand that TV networks view it the same with their ratings, but I could be laying on my couch dead for 12 hours with CBS on and the network would count me as a viewer. 

 

The average fan doesn't want to commit 5-6 hours of time to watch a single game in depth. You and I may be fine doing that, but we are in the minority, not the majority. The average fan doesn't have excess free time to post on blog boards and discuss Ravens football all day and all week long.

 

The reason I'm not interested in opening up all penalties to being challenged is because I don't think it really solves a problem. I think there's MAYBE a half dozen calls all season long for this team that would be overturned or ruled differently with being able to challenge any penalty or play, and for me, that's simply not enough to justify a rule change. 

 

The overwhelming majority of complaints about officiating is due to the follow things:

 

1. Lack of consistency with enforcement. This largely can't be fixed, because unless you have the same officials for every game, you'll never get consistency from human beings. Every sport has this problem, and there's no way to fix it.

 

2. Subjective calls being interpreted as incorrect or differently by fans and media. Again, not fixable. The concept of replay is to overturn definitive, non-debatable mistakes, not subjective one's. Replay isn't going to make officials rule Chris Johnson to have forward progress stopped on that play against Arizona. That's a subjective call that is debatable based on the on-field official. I'd guarantee that if those calls were challenged, nearly 100% of those calls would be upheld as called on the field.

 

I mean what we are really talking about here is 2-3 plays over the course of a season that the officials largely missed.  That's it. Is that sufficient enough to make a radical change to instant replay? In my judgment, no. I understand we fans spend an entire game saying "o the official missed the OLineman holding there" or "o look they called PI but it was really tangled feet" and all of this other stuff. Those are the calls we complain about the most, and those are the calls that can't and won't be changed by replay, because they are inherently subjective.

[Bigjon5477]

Yes, but there's a big difference in me watching a Ravens game and me watching a Lions game. I spend actual attention on watching the Ravens play. I watch every play and am engage in what's going on. Whether I have another game on in the background all day and am doing 12 different other things while occasionally looking at it isnt the same as watching it.

 

Yes, I understand that TV networks view it the same with their ratings, but I could be laying on my couch dead for 12 hours with CBS on and the network would count me as a viewer. 

 

The average fan doesn't want to commit 5-6 hours of time to watch a single game in depth. You and I may be fine doing that, but we are in the minority, not the majority. The average fan doesn't have excess free time to post on blog boards and discuss Ravens football all day and all week long.

 

The reason I'm not interested in opening up all penalties to being challenged is because I don't think it really solves a problem. I think there's MAYBE a half dozen calls all season long for this team that would be overturned or ruled differently with being able to challenge any penalty or play, and for me, that's simply not enough to justify a rule change. 

 

The overwhelming majority of complaints about officiating is due to the follow things:

 

1. Lack of consistency with enforcement. This largely can't be fixed, because unless you have the same officials for every game, you'll never get consistency from human beings. Every sport has this problem, and there's no way to fix it.

 

2. Subjective calls being interpreted as incorrect or differently by fans and media. Again, not fixable. The concept of replay is to overturn definitive, non-debatable mistakes, not subjective one's. Replay isn't going to make officials rule Chris Johnson to have forward progress stopped on that play against Arizona. That's a subjective call that is debatable based on the on-field official. I'd guarantee that if those calls were challenged, nearly 100% of those calls would be upheld as called on the field.

 

I mean what we are really talking about here is 2-3 plays over the course of a season that the officials largely missed.  That's it. Is that sufficient enough to make a radical change to instant replay? In my judgment, no. I understand we fans spend an entire game saying "o the official missed the OLineman holding there" or "o look they called PI but it was really tangled feet" and all of this other stuff. Those are the calls we complain about the most, and those are the calls that can't and won't be changed by replay, because they are inherently subjective.

I'm not sure what games you have been watching as you say 2-3 calls that officials largely missed over a season. I could think of 2-3 in one game.

[mikeld42]

Sorry NFL, selling my PSL after holidays.

Your combination of arrogance and intransigence is ruining the game especially for the fans.

You had a great product but you lack vision and leadership.

Your part time officials have cost my team 2 games and who knows what chances to salvalge the season before the injuries.

Your weak response is to offer a Mea Culpa on Mondays and continue counting your receipts instead of addressing the issues which confront the NFL.

Im back to the college game for any number of reasons.

Hope you somehow get the message that serious change is needed.