JoeyFlex5

Eating my words, giving props where its due- kamar aiken

276 posts in this topic

Man it's hard to find someone who is positively neutral around here lol. Aiken may be a physical receiver, but boldin has hof credentials and took the league by storm as a 6th round rookie. They may have comparable styles, but you can't realistically compare the 2. And on the other hand, it's not really fair to hold it against him that he's being force fed the ball, don't make that a bashing point and just appreciate that he has responded pretty well when being force fed. Aiken is no super star but he has shown some nice things this year and deserves recognition for it.

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Man it's hard to find someone who is positively neutral around here lol. Aiken may be a physical receiver, but boldin has hof credentials and took the league by storm as a 6th round rookie. They may have comparable styles, but you can't realistically compare the 2. And on the other hand, it's not really fair to hold it against him that he's being force fed the ball, don't make that a bashing point and just appreciate that he has responded pretty well when being force fed. Aiken is no super star but he has shown some nice things this year and deserves recognition for it.

I think its a perfectly fair point.  He never made a case for himself when given the oppurtunity before, now that he is basically the only one to throw the ball to, of course hes going to put up some yards.  I would hope any WR on any roster thrown into the number one spot could catch a pass when targeted 10+ times.  Like i said, i think he is just fine as a number 3 but i think thats all he is.  This comparison to Boldin is just insane, the eye test alone tells a completely different story.  I am glad he is producing, but you have to remember the context of the thread.  If he was doing this say if SSr and BP was on the field, id tip my hat, but imo his numbers are just by default.  Plug a healthy Camp in that spot (which doubtful he will ever be healthy) and i think we see a completely different result, albeit different style of players, but you get my point

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Career

 

Garcon

5864 yards in 114 games

51.4 avg yards a gmae

31 TDs

 

Aiken

1031 yards in 32 games

32.2 avg yards a game

4 Tds

 

Aiken has played in 29 games for Baltimore and hasnt put up 1000 yards...Stats are fun

 

What does the past have to do with the present or near-future?

If we're talking the past or career, then yes, Garcon's has been better.

But then, his has been longer, so naturally it would be better. Clearly, he has the edge in experience.

 

However, Garcon will be 30 next year, the age when WRs often start to decline (see Jacoby Jones).

Aiken will be 27, which is typically when WRs reach their physical, athletic peak.

Garcon himself had his best season, by far, at age 27.

How can you be so confident that Aiken won't do the same?

Especially when this season, he's already shown that he may have developed to Garcon's level, since again for this season their production has been very comparable.

 

Btw, Garcon never had a season like his age 27 one prior or since. So, it's a complete outlier.

His typical season throughout his career matches up with the season Aiken is currently having.

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What does the past have to do with the present or near-future?

If we're talking the past or career, then yes, Garcon's has been better.

But then, his has been longer, so naturally it would be better. Clearly, he has the edge in experience.

However, Garcon will be 30 next year, the age when WRs often start to decline (see Jacoby Jones).

Aiken will be 27, which is typically when WRs reach their physical, athletic peak.

Garcon himself had his best season, by far, at age 27.

How can you be so confident that Aiken won't do the same?

Especially when this season, he's already shown that he may have developed to Garcon's level, since again for this season their production has been very comparable.

Btw, Garcon never had a season like his age 27 one prior or since. So, it's a complete outlier.

His typical season throughout his career matches up with the season Aiken is currently having.

I like how you used Jacoby as an example lol. I could name a whole lot of WR's still playing at a high level who are way north of 30 (like someone on our team). And Pierre Garçon was really the only viable playmaker available for Washington in 2013 and all he did was catch 113 passes for 1,346 yards and 5 TD's. And before you bring up the age or experience excuse, Boldin had a similar stat line his rookie year but Kamar can't top 100 yards in a single game this season lol.

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What does the past have to do with the present or near-future?

If we're talking the past or career, then yes, Garcon's has been better.

But then, his has been longer, so naturally it would be better. Clearly, he has the edge in experience.

 

However, Garcon will be 30 next year, the age when WRs often start to decline (see Jacoby Jones).

Aiken will be 27, which is typically when WRs reach their physical, athletic peak.

Garcon himself had his best season, by far, at age 27.

How can you be so confident that Aiken won't do the same?

Especially when this season, he's already shown that he may have developed to Garcon's level, since again for this season their production has been very comparable.

 

Btw, Garcon never had a season like his age 27 one prior or since. So, it's a complete outlier.

His typical season throughout his career matches up with the season Aiken is currently having.

Yea i see what your saying.  But you kind of eluded to my point.  Aiken is getting to the age that Garcon had his best year, be he also was producing before hand, for numerous seasons.  Aiken has had chances to win starting jobs, hes been on numerous teams.  Im not dogging the guy i just think we have seen what he has to offer and theres nothing wrong with that.  Is it possible he just starts lighting it up and puts up better numbers, possibly, i just dont think it will happen.  And to help your point, im sure his numbers would look much better with Joe continously out there with him, maybe not though.   Garcon may be 30, but SSr is about 37 and he was playing like one of the best WRs in the leauge, not putting them in the same convo by any means, just making a statement age doesnt always matter.  BTW, Jacoby was a return specialst, for the love of god please tell me you know that Jacoby meant more to this team than Aiken has/will. 

 

We have a very young WR corps and Garcon would bring a veteran presence which is always nice to have for young WRs to learn from.  I guess you could call Aiken a veteran but you really think he is in the position to be a leader in the WR corps when he couldnt even win a job without injuries? Its like asking your friend to tutor you in math when he is barely passing....

 

I havent followed your posts at all, but whats your gameplan going in to next season? especially if SSr retires? you want to roll with BP, Aiken, Camp, Butler, D Brown? that is going to be scary.  Or do you suggest we draft a WR (wha round) or sign a FA (who).

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I like how you used Jacoby as an example lol. I could name a whole lot of WR's still playing at a high level who are way north of 30 (like someone on our team). And Pierre Garçon was really the only viable playmaker available for Washington in 2013 and all he did was catch 113 passes for 1,346 yards and 5 TD's. And before you bring up the age or experience excuse, Boldin had a similar stat line his rookie year but Kamar can't top 100 yards in a single game this season lol.

Glad to see someone else is on the same thought process

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What does the past have to do with the present or near-future?

If we're talking the past or career, then yes, Garcon's has been better.

But then, his has been longer, so naturally it would be better. Clearly, he has the edge in experience.

 

However, Garcon will be 30 next year, the age when WRs often start to decline (see Jacoby Jones).

Aiken will be 27, which is typically when WRs reach their physical, athletic peak.

Garcon himself had his best season, by far, at age 27.

How can you be so confident that Aiken won't do the same?

Especially when this season, he's already shown that he may have developed to Garcon's level, since again for this season their production has been very comparable.

 

Btw, Garcon never had a season like his age 27 one prior or since. So, it's a complete outlier.

His typical season throughout his career matches up with the season Aiken is currently having.

Garcon was the number one receiver when he was 27.  When he was 28 the Skins signed Djax.  If they hadn't signed Djax he would have continued to be the number 1 wideout on the team and would have had more  targets.  I'm not saying he would have caught over 100 balls like he did a couple years ago, but he probably would have caught 70-80. 

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Garcon was the number one receiver when he was 27.  When he was 28 the Skins signed Djax.  If they hadn't signed Djax he would have continued to be the number 1 wideout on the team and would have had more  targets.  I'm not saying he would have caught over 100 balls like he did a couple years ago, but he probably would have caught 70-80. 

He also played as a number two to Reggie Wayne in Indi

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Yea i see what your saying.  But you kind of eluded to my point.  Aiken is getting to the age that Garcon had his best year, be he also was producing before hand, for numerous seasons.  Aiken has had chances to win starting jobs, hes been on numerous teams.  Im not dogging the guy i just think we have seen what he has to offer and theres nothing wrong with that.  Is it possible he just starts lighting it up and puts up better numbers, possibly, i just dont think it will happen.  And to help your point, im sure his numbers would look much better with Joe continously out there with him, maybe not though.   Garcon may be 30, but SSr is about 37 and he was playing like one of the best WRs in the leauge, not putting them in the same convo by any means, just making a statement age doesnt always matter.  BTW, Jacoby was a return specialst, for the love of god please tell me you know that Jacoby meant more to this team than Aiken has/will. 

 

We have a very young WR corps and Garcon would bring a veteran presence which is always nice to have for young WRs to learn from.  I guess you could call Aiken a veteran but you really think he is in the position to be a leader in the WR corps when he couldnt even win a job without injuries? Its like asking your friend to tutor you in math when he is barely passing....

 

I havent followed your posts at all, but whats your gameplan going in to next season? especially if SSr retires? you want to roll with BP, Aiken, Camp, Butler, D Brown? that is going to be scary.  Or do you suggest we draft a WR (wha round) or sign a FA (who).

 

We can't count on Perriman or SSS at the moment.

So, we need to either sign or draft another potential starter to play alongside Aiken, who will be the other starter by default because: he's earned it, he's the best option, and he and Flacco have already started to build a rapport that hopefully they can continue to improve upon.

Forget about having a, for sure, bona fide #1 WR. Unless he comes cheap because of baggage (Josh Gordon), age (Roddy White) or injury (SSS?).

We don't have the cap space for anyone better and we can't be certain that we already have one or that we can draft one who will play at that #1WR level immediately as a rookie.

But if we can get 2 starters, with our TEs and RBs along with complimentary WRs who are productive in that role like Butler and D. Brown seem to be (maybe Camp too if he finally gets healthy) we should be solid with our passing game.

Just need Trestman to continue to help scheme these guys open, and play to their strengths, which he's shown a willingness and capability to do.

It isn't ideal, but as long as it's good enough to compliment a strong running game--which Trestman will have to use more of--then it should be enough.

 

As for who I think we should draft, I haven't looked at any film on draftbreakdown yet, nor watched much college ball.

And until we see how our cap shakes out, and who gets cut. it's impossible to list any potential FA signings.

We're not getting Alshon, that much I do know.

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I like how you used Jacoby as an example lol. I could name a whole lot of WR's still playing at a high level who are way north of 30 (like someone on our team). And Pierre Garçon was really the only viable playmaker available for Washington in 2013 and all he did was catch 113 passes for 1,346 yards and 5 TD's. And before you bring up the age or experience excuse, Boldin had a similar stat line his rookie year but Kamar can't top 100 yards in a single game this season lol.

 

Then, why don't you do it.

 

Garcon caught 113 passes, but on 181 targets.

That's why he's never duplicated those numbers, before or since, because he's never duplicated those targets.

 

However, 181 targets is roughly double the 94 targets Aiken currently has.

 

So, if we double Aiken's targets, double his receptions and double his yards, we get these numbers.

188 targets, 108 passes, 1348 yards.

 

Numbers which are very similar to what Garcon produced in the only season where he had that many targets.

Because that's about what Aiken would produce if he ever had that many targets in any season.

Because Aiken is now that type of WR: not much of a deep threat, but a tough, reliable chain mover who can be productive over the short/intermediate/middle of the field. And you can't sleep on him entirely, because he can get behind you and beat you deep if he sets you up for it first.

He got open deep a few times this year, but Joe underthrew him, and now that Givens is here, that's his role, not Aiken's.

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We can't count on Perriman or SSS at the moment.

So, we need to either sign or draft another potential starter to play alongside Aiken, who will be the other starter by default because: he's earned it, he's the best option, and he and Flacco have already started to build a rapport that hopefully they can continue to improve upon.

Forget about having a, for sure, bona fide #1 WR. Unless he comes cheap because of baggage (Josh Gordon), age (Roddy White) or injury (SSS?).

We don't have the cap space for anyone better and we can't be certain that we already have one or that we can draft one who will play at that #1WR level immediately as a rookie.

But if we can get 2 starters, with our TEs and RBs along with complimentary WRs who are productive in that role like Butler and D. Brown seem to be (maybe Camp too if he finally gets healthy) we should be solid with our passing game.

Just need Trestman to continue to help scheme these guys open, and play to their strengths, which he's shown a willingness and capability to do.

It isn't ideal, but as long as it's good enough to compliment a strong running game--which Trestman will have to use more of--then it should be enough.

 

As for who I think we should draft, I haven't looked at any film on draftbreakdown yet, nor watched much college ball.

And until we see how our cap shakes out, and who gets cut. it's impossible to list any potential FA signings.

We're not getting Alshon, that much I do know.

The problem with going the draft route and SSr retires is we are stuck with BP, Aiken, Draft selectoin, D Brown, Butler, Camp....That is a very unproven group with out any veteran guy to show them the ropes on being a WR in the NFL which imo is very important. 

 

If you have ever seen me post, ive always stated we didnt need a elite #1 guy, Boldin was our number one OPTION but he wasnt a elite WR to the rest of the league those years, but when playoff time came he was another animal.  We succeeded because we had awesome role players, numerous ones, a very well rounded offense and thats what i think we need again. 

 

Trestman has done a great job with wha the has to work with and im a fan of his, i think we could have an explosive offense, i just think it will be a mistake to rely on Aiken as a 2, i think hes a good 3, thats all i have been trying to say, He's a JAG.  We wont have much cap room and i believe we will sign a veteran WR and im starting to lean more towards Nate Washington, not that im advocating for him, just a hunch. 

 

Do you think we draft/sign a WR to be a starter?

 

Sidenote, i would love for you to be right and Aiken prove me wrong. 

Edited by usmccharles
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Garcon was the number one receiver when he was 27.  When he was 28 the Skins signed Djax.  If they hadn't signed Djax he would have continued to be the number 1 wideout on the team and would have had more  targets.  I'm not saying he would have caught over 100 balls like he did a couple years ago, but he probably would have caught 70-80. 

 

Why do you think they signed DJax?

Because Garcon's yards per reception of 11.9 that year preclude him from being a true #1 WR.

He was the #1 WR that year, purely by default, just like Aiken now is.

You can disagree all you want, I'm telling you, the numbers and the tape both point to Aiken being very similar to Garcon.

That's who he reminds me of.

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The problem with going the draft route and SSr retires is we are stuck with BP, Aiken, Draft selectoin, D Brown, Butler, Camp....That is a very unproven group with out any veteran guy to show them the ropes on being a WR in the NFL which imo is very important. 

 

If you have ever seen me post, ive always stated we didnt need a elite #1 guy, Boldin was our number one OPTION but he wasnt a elite WR to the rest of the league those years, but when playoff time came he was another animal.  We succeeded because we had awesome role players, numerous ones, a very well rounded offense and thats what i think we need again. 

 

Trestman has done a great job with wha the has to work with and im a fan of his, i think we could have an explosive offense, i just think it will be a mistake to rely on Aiken as a 2, i think hes a good 3, thats all i have been trying to say, He's a JAG.  We wont have much cap room and i believe we will sign a veteran WR and im starting to lean more towards Nate Washington, not that im advocating for him, just a hunch. 

 

Do you think we draft/sign a WR to be a starter?

 

Sidenote, i would love for you to be right and Aiken prove me wrong. 

 

If you're OK with Garcon as a #2, then you should be OK with Aiken in that role.

I think we sign somebody to compete with Perriman and a draft pick as our other starter, though I hope it isn't Nate Washington who as a smaller WR at 33 probably won't be an improvement over Butler at that point.

 

But why do you think Aiken is nothing but a JAG?

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If you're OK with Garcon as a #2, then you should be OK with Aiken in that role.

I think we sign somebody to compete with Perriman and a draft pick as our other starter, though I hope it isn't Nate Washington who as a smaller WR at 33 probably won't be an improvement over Butler at that point.

 

But why do you think Aiken is nothing but a JAG?

I just dont see anything special that transcends him, like its been stated: theres a reason why he was undrafted and theres a readson why hes bounced around the league for 5 years or whatever its been.  I would be curious to know of any WR that took 5 years to become a legit playmaker.  The reason why im more ok with Garcon than Aiken as a number 2 is because we have seen Garcon put up good numbers, hes done things, hes been reliable.  I feel like Garcon in our system with Joe, would be great. 

 

This is also assuming BP can be a number 1 which we still dont know

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The problem with going the draft route and SSr retires is we are stuck with BP, Aiken, Draft selectoin, D Brown, Butler, Camp....That is a very unproven group with out any veteran guy to show them the ropes on being a WR in the NFL which imo is very important. 

 

If you have ever seen me post, ive always stated we didnt need a elite #1 guy, Boldin was our number one OPTION but he wasnt a elite WR to the rest of the league those years, but when playoff time came he was another animal.  We succeeded because we had awesome role players, numerous ones, a very well rounded offense and thats what i think we need again. 

 

Trestman has done a great job with wha the has to work with and im a fan of his, i think we could have an explosive offense, i just think it will be a mistake to rely on Aiken as a 2, i think hes a good 3, thats all i have been trying to say, He's a JAG.  We wont have much cap room and i believe we will sign a veteran WR and im starting to lean more towards Nate Washington, not that im advocating for him, just a hunch. 

 

Do you think we draft/sign a WR to be a starter?

 

Sidenote, i would love for you to be right and Aiken prove me wrong.

its actually possible we bring boldin back in for a 1 or 2 year deal. We all know how Ozzie likes bringin in them older receivers. Plus he has a history with joe. I wouldn't hate it. Boldin Perriman Aiken camp Daniel brown and butler/Waller or another draftee wouldn't be a bad wr corps at all. And that's if SSS doesn't return. Imagine that list with him. The only thing is that would be a lot of possession type chain movers and if Perriman went down we'd once again be in the same boat with no deep threat. But if we drafted another burner or kept givens it could work.
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its actually possible we bring boldin back in for a 1 or 2 year deal. We all know how Ozzie likes bringin in them older receivers. Plus he has a history with joe. I wouldn't hate it. Boldin Perriman Aiken camp Daniel brown and butler/Waller or another draftee wouldn't be a bad wr corps at all. And that's if SSS doesn't return. Imagine that list with him. The only thing is that would be a lot of possession type chain movers and if Perriman went down we'd once again be in the same boat with no deep threat. But if we drafted another burner or kept givens it could work.

That's another name that I've been thinking about lately. I could totally see us signing Boldin but in that case there would be no need to keep Aiken. That would be the best case scenario for the team.

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That's another name that I've been thinking about lately. I could totally see us signing Boldin but in that case there would be no need to keep Aiken. That would be the best case scenario for the team.

I disagree about there being no need to keep Aiken. It never hurts to have more than 1 of the same type receiver IMO. And that way if one if them went down the other would be there to fill in. But with boldin Perriman and possibly SSS we can move Aiken back to where he belongs in the 3 or 4 role. That is where he shines for numerous reasons. Boldin is a FA after this year correct? Or am I thinking if somebody else?
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People right now are getting way to excited over what aiken has shown in a 4 game stretch that many are over looking that he has been in the league for 5 years now.

there is no guaranteed he will play like this next season and lets not even think about the rest of his career.

my eye test tells me that i need to see a lot more cause 4 games in 5 seasons is not worthy to be compared to boldin.

Classic case of Ravens Fan Syndrome, where we're so starved for a top WR that we think someone like Aiken will be that guy after 4 games of being force fed the ball and not doing squat the years prior. For reference, please see Marlon Brown, Demetrius Williams, Aaron Mellette, Yamon Figures, etc. Overhyped WR's that Ravens fans and Ravens coaches wanted so badly to turn into big time players but never happened. At this point, I just want Ozzie to bring in solid veterans at the position like we've done with Mason, SSS, Housh and Q; players that might be considered over the hill, but still reliable nonetheless.

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I disagree about there being no need to keep Aiken. It never hurts to have more than 1 of the same type receiver IMO. And that way if one if them went down the other would be there to fill in. But with boldin Perriman and possibly SSS we can move Aiken back to where he belongs in the 3 or 4 role. That is where he shines for numerous reasons. Boldin is a FA after this year correct? Or am I thinking if somebody else?

He is a FA. And if that were the case, we wouldn't draft someone like Tyler Boyd in the second or pick up a cap casualty like some of the names mentioned in this thread which is a shame.

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That's the thing though...ppl keep comparing Aiken to number 1 and number 2 receivers just bc he has been thrown into that role due to injuries. He doesn't belong there. He's a number 3 receiver at best. And that's where he excels finding soft spots in the defense. He's not very good against top corners. But ppl need to stop evaluating him as a number 1 or even 2

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That's the thing though...ppl keep comparing Aiken to number 1 and number 2 receivers just bc he has been thrown into that role due to injuries. He doesn't belong there. He's a number 3 receiver at best. And that's where he excels finding soft spots in the defense. He's not very good against top corners. But ppl need to stop evaluating him as a number 1 or even 2

But even when he was the number three/four like last season and the beginning of this season, he disappeared and wasn't a factor at all, so really he doesn't even excel in that role either.

Edited by Deflated Football
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He is a FA. And if that were the case, we wouldn't draft someone like Tyler Boyd in the second or pick up a cap casualty like some of the names mentioned in this thread which is a shame.

not necessarily. We're not gonna want another repeat at the position like this season so we might go all in on receiver. I could see us adding a Veteran FA AND drafting one high. But you never know who the BPA will be.
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But even when he was the number three/four like last season and the beginning of this season, he disappeared and wasn't a factor at all, so really he doesn't even excel in that role either.

I disagree there too. He didn't get many opportunities last year bc he really was just starting to be recognized, I don't know how you figure he disappeared and wasn't a factor at all.. Every single time he got an opportunity he came through and he made some huge plays for us last year including in the playoffs. And wasn't he the number two beside Steve right off the bat this season? Edited by January J
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its actually possible we bring boldin back in for a 1 or 2 year deal. We all know how Ozzie likes bringin in them older receivers. Plus he has a history with joe. I wouldn't hate it. Boldin Perriman Aiken camp Daniel brown and butler/Waller or another draftee wouldn't be a bad wr corps at all. And that's if SSS doesn't return. Imagine that list with him. The only thing is that would be a lot of possession type chain movers and if Perriman went down we'd once again be in the same boat with no deep threat. But if we drafted another burner or kept givens it could work.

if they do let boldin go, I wonder if they target a WR with their first pick... Interesting
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if they do let boldin go, I wonder if they target a WR with their first pick... Interesting

they're probably going to want a quarterback too. The niners and st louis are possible trade back candidates. Cleveland is eyeing lynch as well if they can use Johnny as trade bait. I think all 3 of those teams will be in the market for a qb. St. Louis and the niners may just get in a bidding war with us to move up. Edited by January J
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I just dont see anything special that transcends him, like its been stated: theres a reason why he was undrafted and theres a readson why hes bounced around the league for 5 years or whatever its been.  I would be curious to know of any WR that took 5 years to become a legit playmaker.  The reason why im more ok with Garcon than Aiken as a number 2 is because we have seen Garcon put up good numbers, hes done things, hes been reliable.  I feel like Garcon in our system with Joe, would be great. 

 

This is also assuming BP can be a number 1 which we still dont know

 

Garcon is either at his ceiling or on the downswing, while Aiken is on the upswing.

Aiken this season has had the following numbers in 7 of the 13 games we've played:

 

Catches - Yards

5 - 89

5 - 77

4 - 78

6 - 62

7 - 73

6 - 80

5 - 90

 

In his final year with the Ravens, Torrey also had 7 such games that season:

Catches - Yards

3 - 81

4 - 63

5 - 75

5 - 98

6 - 65

5 - 59

4 - 83

 

Granted, Torrey's speed helps him to rack up TDs when he has a QB with the arm to take advantage, and he can be a PI magnet. But Aiken has already proven to be at least as steady week in, week out as Torrey, if not a bit more.

And Torrey's numbers this year with the 49ers have been awful, for the most part.

Edited by PerpetuallyBored74
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not necessarily. We're not gonna want another repeat at the position like this season so we might go all in on receiver. I could see us adding a Veteran FA AND drafting one high. But you never know who the BPA will be.

Us fans might not want another repeat, but our front office has a reputation of bringing in bandaids at the WR position so I wouldn't be shocked at all if Kamar was the number two heading in to next season.

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But Aiken has already proven to be at least as steady week in, week out as Torrey, if not a bit more.

And Torrey's numbers this year with the 49ers have been awful, for the most part.

And maybe that's what people are missing. Aiken is "steady". He's not flashy and may never rack up huge numbers, but when given an opportunity he has grabbed it and proven himself to be reliable. Every team needs solid reliable players to round out the flash. #1, 2, 3, who cares? Just give me a few players we can count on.

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