Why Vernon Hargreaves (CB) might be the best player in the Draft

[Xmadraven]

dont forget about Will Davis.

More or less why I'd rather spend our first rounder on bosa or Tunsil (Even though I do not want a LT) 

 

We have potential at CB and investments at Safety maybe one of them works out at both positions.

 

@purplecity5 I doubt bosa or tunsil are there if we pick at 5. They're the blue chippers teams would love to get and about every team has a need for LT or pass rusher above us (Save for cleveland maybe) 

[Xmadraven]

Rolle had 1 good year in 14? That tells me all I need to know, you just don't know what you're talking about. Have you forgotten about his years with the cardinals that hot him his fat pay day in the first place? Or are you just need to football?

 

1 in 14? He was drafted in 05. Just because he got paid doesn't mean he was a good player I know what I'm talking about, Rolle was always an overrated player. I know this because my cousins are cardinals fans (And one's a giants fan) yes it's jsut a fans opinion but beleive it or not players can be overrated. Rolle is one of them.

 

http://boards.giants.com/archive/index.php/t-16712.html?s=35da683f5c8961064504d64cd9630e35 

 

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?22168-Will-Antrel-Rolle-suck-again-this-year 

 

Se these links on the the time he was with that team.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Xmadraven

[JoeyFlex5]

Also, the ravens didn't move hill to ss because of Kendrick lewis, we signed lewis because hill showed that he was best at ss. He split reps in 2014 and was noisy effective covering te's, covering the seam, and playing an attack role. Nobody is gonna shove will hill to the side for a Kendrick lewis, our coaching staff isn't THAT stupid

[JoeyFlex5]

1 in 14? He was drafted in 05. Just because he got paid doesn't mean he was a good player I know what I'm talking about, Rolle was always an overrated player. I know this because my cousins are cardinals fans (And one's a giants fan) yes it's jsut a fans opinion but beleive it or not players can be overrated. Rolle is one of them.

http://boards.giants.com/archive/index.php/t-16712.html

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?22168-Will-Antrel-Rolle-suck-again-this-year

Se these links on the the time he was with that team.

so fan rants mean something now? Half the ravens fanbase thinks flacco is a bum and thought boldin should've been kept over him, but of course fan rants are all that matters

[Xmadraven]

so fan rants mean something now? Half the ravens fanbase thinks flacco is a bum and thought boldin should've been kept over him, but of course fan rants are all that matters

No it doesn't mean that but I can't exactly show you every single snap of his career and show you he was a below average player for most of it. It's a few fans that think he was sucky I've watched him play about 3 seasons give or take a few games  and only his 2013 season was pretty good. I'd use profootballfocus but you'd just laugh at that too wouldn't you? 

 

Also not every person is a rocket scientist is joe flacco an MVP caliber QB? No. Is he good enough to win a championship? yep. good enough for me and should be good enough for the fan base but we always want more/get spoiled then we come crashing back to earth or stay stuck in our reality that's based on our opinions which may or may not be wrong. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Xmadraven

[PurpleCity5]

More or less why I'd rather spend our first rounder on bosa or Tunsil (Even though I do not want a LT)

We have potential at CB and investments at Safety maybe one of them works out at both positions.

@purplecity5 I doubt bosa or tunsil are there if we pick at 5. They're the blue chippers teams would love to get and about every team has a need for LT or pass rusher above us (Save for cleveland maybe)

I don't see us picking at 5, in the instance we do, why should we still pick Ramsey, you think both tackles Stanley or Tunsil being gone? Also, as it stands we are at 3, very well could be picking there, why should it not be possible for Tunsil or Bosa to be there if we Hargreaves is gone by then. I also have to say that even at 5, Stanley is a better option than Ramsey.

[Xmadraven]

I don't see us picking at 5, in the instance we do, why should we still pick Ramsey, you think both tackles Stanley or Tunsil being gone? Also, as it stands we are at 3, very well could be picking there, why should it not be possible for Tunsil or Bosa to be there if we Hargreaves is gone by then. I also have to say that even at 5, Stanley is a better option than Ramsey.

I think if we're at 5 tunsil and bosa are gone. I would say we only pick ramsey or hargreaves if we pick later in the draft (Aka past six) which is unlikely. but possible 

 

Hargreaves won't go in the top three unless Tennesse falls in love with him, The chargers won't take him. The ravens would take bosa or Tunsil, I like stanley but he's the no.11 player on my board it's poor value to take him at 3-6

Edited December 23, 2015 by Xmadraven

[PurpleCity5]

I think if we're at 5 tunsil and bosa are gone. I would say we only pick ramsey or hargreaves if we pick later in the draft (Aka past six) which is unlikely. but possible

Hargreaves won't go in the top three unless Tennesse falls in love with him, The chargers won't take him. The ravens would take bosa or Tunsil, I like stanley but he's the no.11 player on my board it's poor value to take him at 3-6

I don't think its poor value to take Stanley, he has the potential to be a franchise LT. If we don't pick him, then who else should we be picking there? I don't think anyone else has better value at 3 outside of Bosa and Tunsil. Hargreaves is my guy but if Stanley can address the strength questions then I like him at 3. Edited December 23, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[Xmadraven]

I don't think its poor value to take Stanley, he has the potential to be a franchise LT. If we don't pick him, then who else should we be picking there? I don't think anyone else has better value at 3 outside of Bosa and Tunsil. Hargreaves is my guy but if Stanley can address the strength questions then I like him at 3.

 

There's no strenght questions with Stanley for me that's just media nitpicking and the wrong assessment it's his technique that forces him off his anchor/not reset it  and allows him to screw up. 

 

Eh I'm not crazy about LTs and think the position is overrated a little don't get me wrong it's important but not as imporant as a pass rusher. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Xmadraven

[Clmraven]

I'm not a fan of Ramsey against those stud WRs, the ones who don't need size to beat you. I think he would get cut up by those guys. I do believe Hargreaves is the much better fit and gives us what we need in a CB. He would have a Ronald Darby type floor, with the ceiling of Chris Harris Jr.

Id say he'd have a ceiling closer to Revis, VH really seems to be the whole package of athleticism and technique.

[Cillmatic]

If he's an above average starter that's fine with me that's exactly what you should expect of course you want him to be a star but Above average starter is fine with me. He's a CB/SS and is easily one of the top 5 CB prospects in the draft and the top SAFETY in the class. He is a SAFETY. Ed Reed was a SS and FS most people forget that.

You forget that Ed Reed wasn't an "above average starter". Bringing him up with Ramsey is useless.

[PurpleCity5]

There's no strenght questions with Stanley for me that's just media nitpicking and the wrong assessment it's his technique that forces him off his anchor/not reset it  and allows him to screw up. 

 

Eh I'm not crazy about LTs and think the position is overrated a little don't get me wrong it's important but not as imporant as a pass rusher. 

I believe it has to do with technique mostly as well. He stands upright too many times and doesn't sink his hips much. I still believe that he needs to answer the strength questions since he struggles most of all against bull rushers. 

 

I disagree about LT being an overrated need. We need a LT badly. Eugene Monroe is on his way out and after that...you have nothing. Maybe you might bring up K.O, but I'm not even sure if we can keep him, and even if we do then its still smart to go out there and get a LT.

Edited December 23, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[PurpleCity5]

Id say he'd have a ceiling closer to Revis, VH really seems to be the whole package of athleticism and technique.

Depends on which Revis. Prime Revis, the one we saw during his first couple seasons in New York when he was pure and simple the best CB in the draft, or the Revis of now. If you mean the Revis as of now then yeah, but I like Chris Harris Jr. a bit better as far as ceiling go since they are fairly similar. 

[RavensFanMania]

No but it shows he played the position well.

 

 

Yes he is, He's had multiple good years at FS. I laugh at the fact you just called antrel rolle a good SS. He's had like one good year his enitre career. He was very good at FS in 2014 which was the position he played for the majority of snaps.

 

He moved to SS because the ravens saw Kendrick lewis as a FS who could create turnovers and so he MOVED.

 

 

Tunsil or bosa aren't getting out of the top four. Hargreaves is probaly going in the 5-8 range and we'll probaly be picking towards the back half of the top 10. Will hill is not going anywhere we're not gonna let our top Safety hit the FA market he's also not to tied to will hill at all. 

The only way we pick towards the back half of the  top 10  is to win a game or trade back.  We are currently picking fourth.

[RavensFanMania]

I don't see us picking at 5, in the instance we do, why should we still pick Ramsey, you think both tackles Stanley or Tunsil being gone? Also, as it stands we are at 3, very well could be picking there, why should it not be possible for Tunsil or Bosa to be there if we Hargreaves is gone by then. I also have to say that even at 5, Stanley is a better option than Ramsey.

I thought we were picking forth due to the sos tiebraker with San Diego?  I do think SD wins another game though.

Edited December 23, 2015 by RavensFanMania

[JoeyFlex5]

You forget that Ed Reed wasn't an "above average starter". Bringing him up with Ramsey is useless.

yeah lets not forget what ed reeds college tape looked like. that man knew where the ball was going to be and when it would be there before the ball was even snapped, he had been that way since a college sophomore, and he was disciplined and extremely rangy unlike ramsey. 

 

if ramsey didnt play with so much fire, hed be a late first round pick, that swagger and "enforcer" potential is the prime reason he is so hyped.

[PurpleCity5]

I thought we were picking forth due to the sos tiebraker with San Diego?  I do think SD wins another game though.

As of now we are at 3rd, that will change after this week if both Baltimore and San Diego losses due to SOS, what would help us a lot is if Denver beats Cincinnati, but even then I don't know what the projection would be due to other games which influence SOS as well. Draft order becomes much more clean later on down the line. Dallas finishing 1st in their division while us finishing 3rd last season certainly helps. San Diego winning another game would be huge, if we pick at 3, and Cleveland trades Manziel, then I consider it a lock for Tunsil or Bosa to fall to us. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[ravensnation5220]

if tunsil and bosa go 1 and 2, which i think they will...

do we really want to take hargreaves at 3rd overall? that is completely unprecedented and im not sure he lives up to that status, if he has a career like a top 10 pick at cb that is fine and dandy, but what if stanley turns out the best LT in the league? what if ramsey is as good as he should be and becomes the best safety in the league? what if we pass on these guys and they are the ones that play like perennial all pros and hargreaves turns out average because shockingly his height actually was a factor?

man... picking this high, in THIS draft, seriously sucks. im legitimately angry at will hill for returning that kick, smh.

thats always the case picking thus high, were just not used to being in this situation lol im sure ozzie will do his due diligence pick a player who can make a difference and we wont be stuck in this situation again like a lot of other teams end up doing, im just hoping if thats the case we trade down a few spots and take alexander. Who knows maybe vh3 or stanley will still be there. Im not too worried about it though. Theres still plenty of talent

[thieverycorporation]

Ramsey is that type of guy who brings toughness to a team. The way I'd look at it, Ramsey's leadership is more comparable to Suggs, while Hargreaves leadership is more comparable to Reed, both Suggs and Reed inspires this team. If Harbaugh does indeed stick with Pees, then I definitely believe Hargreaves is the pick over Ramsey. We like to do a little bit of off-man coverage, which is where Hargreaves elevates at, and where Ramsey sinks at. I don't think Ramsey is that good of a CB off-man. I personally believe Hargreaves is one of the best off-man CBs I've ever seen enter the draft, he's that good at it while I don't see Ramsey comparable in that aspect. I think in our system, day one starter, that's what Hargreaves would be here. 

 

As far as Tunsil goes, yeah, I think he's #1 and he is better than the 2013 tackles that went #1 and #2 overall. We may take a look at Stanley but as of now Tunsil is the consensus #1 for us though you can argue Stanley is the better fit for a ZBS. The way I see it, if Ronnie Stanley can address the strength issues, then it's Tunsil>Bosa>Stanley>Hargreaves....if we do highly question Stanley's strength and believe it to be a problem for him long-term, then you swap Stanley and Hargreaves. 

Agreed. We can't afford to second guess with this high pick. They are hard to come bye. I'd don't think Ozzie will draft that high and slide back to a QB needy team. 

[ravensnation5220]

Agreed. We can't afford to second guess with this high pick. They are hard to come bye. I'd don't think Ozzie will draft that high and slide back to a QB needy team.

How about trading back for a guy like mackensie alexander. Hes good on and off man. Probably the best cover skills in the draft in my eyes

[thieverycorporation]

How about trading back for a guy like mackensie alexander. Hes good on and off man. Probably the best cover skills in the draft in my eyes

He'd be a strong consideration but he doesn't handle interceptions well. If you ask me the two best prospects are Sua` Cravens  and Ramsey. And I'd take Cravens if we traded back into the first round to grab him if we went in another direction with the first pick. Boyd would garner strong consideration just ensure we got him. 

[ravensnation5220]

He'd be a strong consideration but he doesn't handle interceptions well. If you ask me the two best prospects are Sua` Cravens and Ramsey. And I'd take Cravens if we traded back into the first round to grab him if we went in another direction with the first pick. Boyd would garner strong consideration just ensure we got him.

well its hard to say how he handles picks cause he was targeted less than vh3, then again he does seem to have trouble locating the ball from what ive seen but still his coverage skills are what sets him apart.

I see cravens and ramsey as hybrid safety rolls and we already have a solid one in will hill and cravens looks more like a 4-3 olb than a safety. If anything he reminds me of matt elam. I agree on the ball skills part on alexander though the only issue is we havent had a good sample size to determine if alexander really has a problem with his ball skills. Ive only seen one dropped pick against nc state by him and it would have been a tough catch but either way his coverage was perfect on the play

[PurpleCity5]

Agreed. We can't afford to second guess with this high pick. They are hard to come bye. I'd don't think Ozzie will draft that high and slide back to a QB needy team.

I was talking about this with Inqui a few days ago. I was okay with getting a 2nd to move back but now that I think about it, The latter half of the top 10 is pretty underwhelming. You got Tunsil, Bosa, and Hargreaves who are the elites, and Stanley who is a toss-up. After that, its hard to justify moving back for Ramsey or even Ogbah. We're not even picking a QB so no moving back there and I like Treadwell but I don't think he forces me to move back. To be honest, unless a team is offering me a future first then I'm telling them dueces lol.

[thieverycorporation]

well its hard to say how he handles picks cause he was targeted less than vh3, then again he does seem to have trouble locating the ball from what ive seen but still his coverage skills are what sets him apart.

I see cravens and ramsey as hybrid safety rolls and we already have a solid one in will hill and cravens looks more like a 4-3 olb than a safety. If anything he reminds me of matt elam. I agree on the ball skills part on alexander though the only issue is we havent had a good sample size to determine if alexander really has a problem with his ball skills. Ive only seen one dropped pick against nc state by him and it would have been a tough catch but either way his coverage was perfect on the play

There's no question that Alex is good but I'd use Cravens like they use Honey Badger. He's just as athletic and rangy like him but has a better matrix to me. He could be used as the spy component and be just as effective in the backfield. I'm talking a blitzing multi faceted player. A little LB, safety, edge rusher of the blitz. With Hargreaves and a healthy backfield lead by JS they could be formidable equation to solve. You have Suggs(Situational at best early on). Doom, Jernigan, B.Williams,  Brent Urban, and slew of combo packages. If we can nail the backfield the rest Of the team will greatly benefit and the Pass rush would also have a new wrinkle. Cravens

[ravensnation5220]

There's no question that Alex is good but I'd use Cravens like they use Honey Badger. He's just as athletic and rangy like him but has a better matrix to me. He could be used as the spy component and be just as effective in the backfield. I'm talking a blitzing multi faceted player. A little LB, safety, edge rusher of the blitz. With Hargreaves and a healthy backfield lead by JS they could be formidable equation to solve. You have Suggs(Situational at best early on). Doom, Jernigan, B.Williams, Brent Urban, and slew of combo packages. If we can nail the backfield the rest Of the team will greatly benefit and the Pass rush would also have a new wrinkle. Cravens

I totally agree with that. Love cravens as a second round pick, and i think harbaugh would love a player like him who could do anything you ask of him, either him or vonn bell. Either way i hope we get alexander. I swear im just going all in on this kid, i love his attitude and i feel like his background makes him a better person and he just seems so much more mature than his age. Im starting to like him more than vh3, vernon kinda reminds me of odel Beckham, not sure if its the hair or what but it may be that new breed attitude some players get. Just seems alexander is more humble and old school and knows what it means to work to get what you want and i feel that goes a long way, not only on the field but in life. Something i think coach would love to have

[ravensnation5220]

There's no question that Alex is good but I'd use Cravens like they use Honey Badger. He's just as athletic and rangy like him but has a better matrix to me. He could be used as the spy component and be just as effective in the backfield. I'm talking a blitzing multi faceted player. A little LB, safety, edge rusher of the blitz. With Hargreaves and a healthy backfield lead by JS they could be formidable equation to solve. You have Suggs(Situational at best early on). Doom, Jernigan, B.Williams, Brent Urban, and slew of combo packages. If we can nail the backfield the rest Of the team will greatly benefit and the Pass rush would also have a new wrinkle. Cravens

I totally agree with that. Love cravens as a second round pick, and i think harbaugh would love a player like him who could do anything you ask of him, either him or vonn bell. Either way i hope we get alexander. I swear im just going all in on this kid, i love his attitude and i feel like his background makes him a better person and he just seems so much more mature than his age. Im starting to like him more than vh3, vernon kinda reminds me of odel Beckham, not sure if its the hair or what but it may be that new breed attitude some players get. Just seems alexander is more humble and old school and knows what it means to work to get what you want and i feel that goes a long way, not only on the field but in life. Something i think coach would love to have

[thieverycorporation]

I was talking about this with Inqui a few days ago. I was okay with getting a 2nd to move back but now that I think about it, The latter half of the top 10 is pretty underwhelming. You got Tunsil, Bosa, and Hargreaves who are the elites, and Stanley who is a toss-up. After that, its hard to justify moving back for Ramsey or even Ogbah. We're not even picking a QB so no moving back there and I like Treadwell but I don't think he forces me to move back. To be honest, unless a team is offering me a future first then I'm telling them dueces lol.

Correct. We actually need to either go get Hargreaves or move back. I don't think

we can afford not to address the Backfield Early. Ozzie May surprise us all and actually move up and snag Tunsil. He proposed doing that (up) during one of the most recent drafts. But if you ask me now Hargreaves needs to be the pick in that range. I'd only move back if I saw a 95% chance of actually getting him later. My wish list for draft picks are top 5. Tunsil=Ogden, Hargreaves=T.Matheiu, Boyd=Boldin/Fitzgerald/Jeffries Sua Cravens=Polamolu/Reed/T.Mathieu, Sterling Shepard=Brown/Saunders/Edelman/.  I not saying they all arrive here but would be pleased to hear they are now Ravens. I have sneaky suspicion that Ozzie is eyeing someone we never heard of. Seems to be his MO. Sometimes it's scary. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by thieverycorporation

[Xmadraven]

You forget that Ed Reed wasn't an "above average starter". Bringing him up with Ramsey is useless.

 

You really think Ed reed hit the ground running? These kids coming out of college aren't HOF players yet it takes time to become ed reed. I'd say ed reed wasn't ed reed until his 3rd year. Expecting your first round pick to be an above average player is all you can ask for, Hell ozzie didn't even like ed reed that much he was their 3rd or 4th option.

[Xmadraven]

I believe it has to do with technique mostly as well. He stands upright too many times and doesn't sink his hips much. I still believe that he needs to answer the strength questions since he struggles most of all against bull rushers. 

 

I disagree about LT being an overrated need. We need a LT badly. Eugene Monroe is on his way out and after that...you have nothing. Maybe you might bring up K.O, but I'm not even sure if we can keep him, and even if we do then its still smart to go out there and get a LT.

 

If we pay KO like a LT we can't afford him. As a guard we can't afford him unless ozzie does some magic shuffling (We do not have wiggle room aside form joe flacco's restructure/extension and that might not happen since we have NO leverage) 

 

I'd rather give eugene monroe one more shot (And if he sucks have a devlopmental Tackle and backup OT ready to go) Wagner's a FA after this year as well, I'd just love to have bosa and adress OT later since have options at LT.

 

Plus tunsil has that wierd off the field issue with stepdad that got him suspended for half the season, I've mostly ignored that but the more I looked into it...yikes. You can google it.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Xmadraven

[Xmadraven]

yeah lets not forget what ed reeds college tape looked like. that man knew where the ball was going to be and when it would be there before the ball was even snapped, he had been that way since a college sophomore, and he was disciplined and extremely rangy unlike ramsey. 

 

if ramsey didnt play with so much fire, hed be a late first round pick, that swagger and "enforcer" potential is the prime reason he is so hyped.

 

He's Hyped because he's the best safety in this class by a mile. Even though I like jeremy cash a lot. Still we'll probaly never draft him I just like the dude. "Enforcer" safetys are a dying breed ramsey isn't a typical "enforcer" who can't cover like you make him out to be.