Why Vernon Hargreaves (CB) might be the best player in the Draft

[Deflated Football]

What position would be play on this team though? Safety? Which he has no REAL experience with. Or Cornerback? Which he has little experience with?

So why is he going to a top 15 draft pick?

[PurpleCity5]

One thing not on your list is the leadership aspect. We need to get the next Sizzle ... and I don't mean edge rusher, I mean the next guy who is going to bring leadership, swagger and real personality. Our team with no Sizzle and no SSS has no personality. Those guys are going to be gone - soon (and SSS may already be gone).

Does Hargraves bring that? Is there anyone on this draft, from which all accounts is really a bad draft for us to finally have a high pick, with that kind of ability? Mosley is nice, but he's the quiet leader. We need the guy who, when we've got a lead that we're clinging to on the opponents final drive (which we've allowed to slip by too often) is going to rally the troops and tell them, "the opposition is only going to score over our dead bodies". We need that and with a draft this high, it will be very disappointing if we don't get that.

It's difficult to say whether or not he does because we don't know what goes on further than the football field but Hargreaves has shown that he wants to be a leader. It's still a learning process according to him but at the same time its something he wants to be able to do. He wants to make others around him better. Though if we are picking at three I have my doubts weather he will be our guy but I do think he can grow into a leader. He made the freshmens and new guys around him better actually, that is one thing is wanted to do. Edited December 23, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[thieverycorporation]

It's difficult to say whether or not he does because we don't know what goes on further than the football field but Hargreaves has shown that he wants to be a leader. It's still a learning process according to him but at the same time its something he wants to be able to do. He wants to make others around him better. Though if we are picking at three I have my doubts weather he will be our guy but I do think he can grow into a leader. He made the freshmens and new guys around him better actually, that is one thing is wanted to do.

There are other examples of being a leader. You can lead and follow simultaneously. What you learn you pass on. I think Ramsey could and would be reigned in upon arrival. I like his passion. We certainly have a mostly low key squad weekly. No Odell Becks right now and thats for a reason. Most of the fouls look to be poor timing or lack of situational awareness. Coachable and enforceable. I don't know that he's the best choice at three but I think it's a non issue. Hargreaves intrigues me most because I see a Honey Bagger quality in is body of work. I think he'd be quite effective in our current or future system. I believe if Harbaugh sticks with Pee's then he may garner serious consideration. If not then it would be up for debate. I also think Treadwell may become irresistible if he provides an outstanding pro day and combine. Perriman is ? mark that they can't afford themselves to rely upon. Ozzie may shy away because the negative's but he'll have to address it early. Tunsil leads currently in my mind but strange things happen yearly for us during the draft. I'd select Hargreaves over Ramsey personally because there are quality options at Safety in both realms. (FA/draft). If you looking for a viable candidate then SuA` Cravens in the late 1st/ early 2 would probably solidify the backfield. Miss out on him and still have Vonn in a later round. We just would have to maneuver to acquire him.

Edited December 23, 2015 by thieverycorporation

[Cillmatic]

So why is he going to a top 15 draft pick?

...... Hype. Same reason Trebt Richardson and 90% of other top 15 picks are drafted.

[Xmadraven]

...... Hype. Same reason Trebt Richardson and 90% of other top 15 picks are drafted.

 

He's played well at Safety and CB he's a top 16 player at safety, a top 45 player at CB. 

 

 

So why is he going to a top 15 draft pick?

 

Cause he's a damn good safety.

 

 

What position would be play on this team though? Safety? Which he has no REAL experience with. Or Cornerback? Which he has little experience with?

 

Yes safety, Most likely barring the ravens thinking he's a really good CB (The tapes there for a top 45 player at CB but he's better at safety) He has expierence with both and he's played fairly well at both position he can play both, Versatility is a nice thing to have. If we're picking towards the back end of the top 10 (6-10) I'd say he's good enough for that pick at safety. Playing both makes him definitley worth it however.

[ellicottraven]

He's played well at Safety and CB he's a top 16 player at safety, a top 45 player at CB. 

 

 

 

Cause he's a damn good safety.

 

 

 

Yes safety, Most likely barring the ravens thinking he's a really good CB (The tapes there for a top 45 player at CB but he's better at safety) He has expierence with both and he's played fairly well at both position he can play both, Versatility is a nice thing to have. If we're picking towards the back end of the top 10 (6-10) I'd say he's good enough for that pick at safety. Playing both makes him definitley worth it however.

I don't necessarily think the Ravens covet versatility as much as we believe. Webb was a safety for his college career, but suited up at CB for us just till very recently.

[JoeyFlex5]

what you guys arent getting, is that ramsey may have been listed at safety all these years, but he has never played a traditional safety role. 

 

he never seems to be projected as a SS, but if he is a safety, then he is a strong safety, everything he does is close to the line and it comes as a result of over aggression, the way he plays will not fly at FS in the nfl. 

 

basically, he plays exactly the same way will hill does, and we already have about 5 strong safeties on the team and we have been this way for years. for this reason, id take hargreaves over him and would prefer a guy like darian thompson in the 2nd, he is more of a fit for what we need, a natural ballhawk, and imo is the clear top FREE safety in a stacked safety class, and as it stands we are in great position to get good value by taking him in the top of the 2nd

[Xmadraven]

I don't necessarily think the Ravens covet versatility as much as we believe. Webb was a safety for his college career, but suited up at CB for us just till very recently.

Obviously not  majorly because they've never tried it except for the terrance brooks/Matt elam debacles. 

 

Webb's slight versatlity is nice though. 

 

For clearance Elam and brooks played different positions in the secondary because of injuries in 2014 and then got injured themselves and have since become borderline rosterable. I have hope for brooks, Elam 1/10 chance he plays well in his contract year (Jimmy smith did it) and elam did have a solid rookie season so lessgo elam. I think we end up going pass rusher or whatever top player ozzie likes. Joey bosa is possible if we pick at 4-6. Hargreaves or ramsey I wouldn't hate but I'd rather have bosa since we have some potential at S and CB. Upshaw's gone Suggs+Dumerville are aging/getting expensive. Smith looks pretty decent for a rookie (Way better than his kentucky counterpart for the steelers) order me a mimosa for bosa baby.

[Xmadraven]

what you guys arent getting, is that ramsey may have been listed at safety all these years, but he has never played a traditional safety role. 

 

he never seems to be projected as a SS, but if he is a safety, then he is a strong safety, everything he does is close to the line and it comes as a result of over aggression, the way he plays will not fly at FS in the nfl. 

 

basically, he plays exactly the same way will hill does, and we already have about 5 strong safeties on the team and we have been this way for years. for this reason, id take hargreaves over him and would prefer a guy like darian thompson in the 2nd, he is more of a fit for what we need, a natural ballhawk, and imo is the clear top FREE safety in a stacked safety class, and as it stands we are in great position to get good value by taking him in the top of the 2nd

Ballhawks are overrated INTs/turnovers are very much luck, Don't get me wrong it's not ALL luck but how the ball bounces is a big part of it. I like thompson and have a 3rd round grade on him because he He's overly aggresive, he needs more disciplned and do a better job controlling his body. Potential is there though, Will Hill played FS in his first year with his he can move between SS and FS, Aka he can go to FS and ramsey can go to SS/CB and rotate between there. Versatitly ftw.

[ellicottraven]

Obviously not  majorly because they've never tried it except for the terrance brooks/Matt elam debacles. 

 

Webb's slight versatlity is nice though. 

 

For clearance Elam and brooks played different positions in the secondary because of injuries in 2014 and then got injured themselves and have since become borderline rosterable. I have hope for brooks, Elam 1/10 chance he plays well in his contract year (Jimmy smith did it) and elam did have a solid rookie season so lessgo elam. I think we end up going pass rusher or whatever top player ozzie likes. Joey bosa is possible if we pick at 4-6. Hargreaves or ramsey I wouldn't hate but I'd rather have bosa since we have some potential at S and CB. Upshaw's gone Suggs+Dumerville are aging/getting expensive. Smith looks pretty decent for a rookie (Way better than his kentucky counterpart for the steelers) order me a mimosa for bosa baby.

A mimosa for Bosa? I like it!

[RavensFanMania]

if tunsil and bosa go 1 and 2, which i think they will... 

 

do we really want to take hargreaves at 3rd overall? that is completely unprecedented and im not sure he livup to that statuses , if he has a career like a top 10 pick at cb that is fine and dandy, but what if stanley turns out the best LT in the league? what if ramsey is as good as he should be and becomes the best safety in the league? what if we pass on these guys and they are the ones that play like perennial all pros and hargreaves turns out average because shockingly his height actually was a factor? 

 

man... picking this high, in THIS draft, seriously sucks. im legitimately angry at will hill for returning that kick, smh.

If he is going to be a top 5 CB in this league he is worth the #3 pick in the draft.  That being said, I'm not sure you can look at it this way. 

 

Whether we draft him at 5 or at 8, it shouldn't matter if he is considered one of the best at his position.  That being said, IF we can trade down and get him that would be great, but trading down is easier said and done.  Many more  teams would trade down if they could find a trade partner.

[RavensFanMania]

I know its very unlikely, its a hypothetical situation. Prospects fall in the draft for unknown reasons at times. You never know honestly.

Williams fell last year because the Skins didn't take him with their pick.  Pissed me off because I would have probably had 8 or 9 right in my mock draft if they had gone with him. 

[JoeyFlex5]

Ballhawks are overrated INTs/turnovers are very much luck, Don't get me wrong it's not ALL luck but how the ball bounces is a big part of it. I like thompson and have a 3rd round grade on him because he He's overly aggresive, he needs more disciplned and do a better job controlling his body. Potential is there though, Will Hill played FS in his first year with his he can move between SS and FS, Aka he can go to FS and ramsey can go to SS/CB and rotate between there. Versatitly ftw.

will hill split time between safety spots and showed that he was very obviously a SS and not a FS, he can play both but putting him at fs is an injustice, Ramsey is of that same breed. Darian thompson is more of a ballhawk and his instincts in deep coverage and range on the back end are far superior to Ramsey, who almost appears to lack confidence on the back end which is why he is so willing to come up close on every snap

[PurpleCity5]

There are other examples of being a leader. You can lead and follow simultaneously. What you learn you pass on. I think Ramsey could and would be reigned in upon arrival. I like his passion. We certainly have a mostly low key squad weekly. No Odell Becks right now and thats for a reason. Most of the fouls look to be poor timing or lack of situational awareness. Coachable and enforceable. I don't know that he's the best choice at three but I think it's a non issue. Hargreaves intrigues me most because I see a Honey Bagger quality in is body of work. I think he'd be quite effective in our current or future system. I believe if Harbaugh sticks with Pee's then he may garner serious consideration. If not then it would be up for debate. I also think Treadwell may become irresistible if he provides an outstanding pro day and combine. Perriman is ? mark that they can't afford themselves to rely upon. Ozzie may shy away because the negative's but he'll have to address it early. Tunsil leads currently in my mind but strange things happen yearly for us during the draft. I'd select Hargreaves over Ramsey personally because there are quality options at Safety in both realms. (FA/draft). If you looking for a viable candidate then SuA` Cravens in the late 1st/ early 2 would probably solidify the backfield. Miss out on him and still have Vonn in a later round. We just would have to maneuver to acquire him.

Ramsey is that type of guy who brings toughness to a team. The way I'd look at it, Ramsey's leadership is more comparable to Suggs, while Hargreaves leadership is more comparable to Reed, both Suggs and Reed inspires this team. If Harbaugh does indeed stick with Pees, then I definitely believe Hargreaves is the pick over Ramsey. We like to do a little bit of off-man coverage, which is where Hargreaves elevates at, and where Ramsey sinks at. I don't think Ramsey is that good of a CB off-man. I personally believe Hargreaves is one of the best off-man CBs I've ever seen enter the draft, he's that good at it while I don't see Ramsey comparable in that aspect. I think in our system, day one starter, that's what Hargreaves would be here. 

 

As far as Tunsil goes, yeah, I think he's #1 and he is better than the 2013 tackles that went #1 and #2 overall. We may take a look at Stanley but as of now Tunsil is the consensus #1 for us though you can argue Stanley is the better fit for a ZBS. The way I see it, if Ronnie Stanley can address the strength issues, then it's Tunsil>Bosa>Stanley>Hargreaves....if we do highly question Stanley's strength and believe it to be a problem for him long-term, then you swap Stanley and Hargreaves. 

[PurpleCity5]

Williams fell last year because the Skins didn't take him with their pick.  Pissed me off because I would have probably had 8 or 9 right in my mock draft if they had gone with him. 

Yeah, good example there. I'm not even sure Bosa is a lock to go to Cleveland at #1 or 2 overall. He could drop a bit. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[Cillmatic]

He's played well at Safety and CB he's a top 16 player at safety, a top 45 player at CB.

Cause he's a damn good safety.

Yes safety, Most likely barring the ravens thinking he's a really good CB (The tapes there for a top 45 player at CB but he's better at safety) He has expierence with both and he's played fairly well at both position he can play both, Versatility is a nice thing to have. If we're picking towards the back end of the top 10 (6-10) I'd say he's good enough for that pick at safety. Playing both makes him definitley worth it however.

"He has expierence with both and he's played fairly well at both position he can play both"

This is the highest we've picked in over a decade. We don't need "fairly well" with that pick. Even if we trade back some. He doesn't play safety the way most NFL teams want him to. He basically served as an extra linebacker. We need a SAFETY.

[RavensFanMania]

Yeah, good example there. I'm not even sure Bosa is a lock to go to Cleveland at #1 or 2 overall. He could drop a bit. 

I agree, and think we end up with either Bosa, Tunsil, Stanley or Hargreaves. 

 

Agree that Ramsey really doesn't fit our system at FS or CB.  I also agree this is a stacked draft at safety if we want to go that route in rounds 2 or 3.  Ramsey's footwork at CB has been awful as well.  He doesn't have a true backpedal.  It's more of a hop step and would have to learn that in the NFL or he'd get torched.  If we went CB, Hargreaves would be awesome in our current system.   

[Xmadraven]

A mimosa for Bosa? I like it!

Thanks it's literally the only thing that rhymes with bosa so. Mimosa's for all.

[Xmadraven]

will hill split time between safety spots and showed that he was very obviously a SS and not a FS, he can play both but putting him at fs is an injustice, Ramsey is of that same breed. Darian thompson is more of a ballhawk and his instincts in deep coverage and range on the back end are far superior to Ramsey, who almost appears to lack confidence on the back end which is why he is so willing to come up close on every snap

 

it's not an injustice it's a position he's played well and can play well again. You put your best 11 on the field, If we drafted ramsey he'd play SS, CB and will hill would rotate between FS and SS. It gives us versatility we sorely lack.

[Xmadraven]

"He has expierence with both and he's played fairly well at both position he can play both"

This is the highest we've picked in over a decade. We don't need "fairly well" with that pick. Even if we trade back some. He doesn't play safety the way most NFL teams want him to. He basically served as an extra linebacker. We need a SAFETY.

 

If he's an above average starter that's fine with me that's exactly what you should expect of course you want him to be a star but Above average starter is fine with me. He's a CB/SS and is easily one of the top 5 CB prospects in the draft and the top SAFETY in the class. He is a SAFETY. Ed Reed was a SS and FS most people forget that. 

[JoeyFlex5]

it's not an injustice it's a position he's played well and can play well again. You put your best 11 on the field, If we drafted ramsey he'd play SS, CB and will hill would rotate between FS and SS. It gives us versatility we sorely lack.

it wouldn't give us a versatile rotation, it would add to the convoluted mess of question marks that our secondary already is. We have a good SS, one solid cb, and everyone else is a liability, so you suggest we fix that by moving our best player to a position where he struggles and drafting a player in the top 5 to play 3 positions at a mediocre level? No thanks, I'll take a player to play at a high level in one position instead of yet another db who isn't good enough at one position to make an impact.

[Xmadraven]

it wouldn't give us a versatile rotation, it would add to the convoluted mess of question marks that our secondary already is. We have a good SS, one solid cb, and everyone else is a liability, so you suggest we fix that by moving our best player to a position where he struggles and drafting a player in the top 5 to play 3 positions at a mediocre level? No thanks, I'll take a player to play at a high level in one position instead of yet another db who isn't good enough at one position to make an impact.

 

Will Hill isn't a liability at FS....He's very good in coverage. We have THREE solid players (Will hill being a very good to elite player obviously) webb is a solid CB, Jimmy smith has shown he can play at a high level (Another year to get that foot right maybe?) Also Shareece Wright has played well somewhat he can be a solid no.4 CB for us. Vernon Hargreaves is a fit for our current system...which will likely change when pees gets fired/ Leaves/retires/whatever. On the small chance he DOES return then he's a perfect system I'm just being realistic since we'll probaly end up picking between 5-8 Ramsey is a solid fit there. 

Hargreaves will likely be gone by the time we pick, Ramsey is the top safety prospect in this class for a reason because he's a damn good safety. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Xmadraven

[JoeyFlex5]

If he's an above average starter that's fine with me that's exactly what you should expect of course you want him to be a star but Above average starter is fine with me. He's a CB/SS and is easily one of the top 5 CB prospects in the draft and the top SAFETY in the class. He is a SAFETY. Ed Reed was a SS and FS most people forget that.

ed played ss very early for us because prime was still playing at a relatively high level at fs. After the first year or 2 he was pure roaming fs with the occasional blitz, that doesn't make him a hybrid safety

[PurpleCity5]

I agree, and think we end up with either Bosa, Tunsil, Stanley or Hargreaves.

Agree that Ramsey really doesn't fit our system at FS or CB. I also agree this is a stacked draft at safety if we want to go that route in rounds 2 or 3. Ramsey's footwork at CB has been awful as well. He doesn't have a true backpedal. It's more of a hop step and would have to learn that in the NFL or he'd get torched. If we went CB, Hargreaves would be awesome in our current system.

I'm not a fan of Ramsey against those stud WRs, the ones who don't need size to beat you. I think he would get cut up by those guys. I do believe Hargreaves is the much better fit and gives us what we need in a CB. He would have a Ronald Darby type floor, with the ceiling of Chris Harris Jr.

[JoeyFlex5]

Will Hill isn't a liability at FS....He's very good in coverage. We have THREE solid players (Will hill being a very good to elite player obviously) webb is a solid CB, Jimmy smith has shown he can play at a high level (Another year to get that foot right maybe?) Vernon Hargreaves is a fit for our current system...which will likely change when pees gets fired/ Leaves/retires/whatever. On the small chance he DOES return then he's a perfect system I'm just being realistic since we'll probaly end up picking between 5-8 Ramsey is a solid fit there.

will hill isn't very good to elite at fs, he had one good year at fs for another team with a truly elite ss to allow him to play free, he is only elite on his own at SS and even that is a stretch. We don't have the supporting cast here for him to okay fs and he did not play very well at fs for us, he played decent at best and was moved to SS for a reason

[PurpleCity5]

Will Hill isn't a liability at FS....He's very good in coverage. We have THREE solid players (Will hill being a very good to elite player obviously) webb is a solid CB, Jimmy smith has shown he can play at a high level (Another year to get that foot right maybe?) Also Shareece Wright has played well somewhat he can be a solid no.4 CB for us. Vernon Hargreaves is a fit for our current system...which will likely change when pees gets fired/ Leaves/retires/whatever. On the small chance he DOES return then he's a perfect system I'm just being realistic since we'll probaly end up picking between 5-8 Ramsey is a solid fit there.

Hargreaves will likely be gone by the time we pick, Ramsey is the top safety prospect in this class for a reason because he's a damn good safety.

You see I just can't agree with that. I don't like the idea of picking a SS this high. We don't even know if we are going to be able to keep Will Hill long-term, so how can you justify picking Ramsey when he is tied to Will Hill? It would have more validity if we lock up Will Hill long term but if we don't then I don't see the justification of picking Ramsey this high.

I also really disagree with Hargreaves being gone. Why should he? As of now we should be picking at 4, would Cleveland pick him? San Diego? Tennesse? I don't see any of these teams doing it and if they do that would drop Tunsil or Bosa to us or we are left with Stanley who Id def. pick over Ramsey.

[Xmadraven]

ed played ss very early for us because prime was still playing at a relatively high level at fs. After the first year or 2 he was pure roaming fs with the occasional blitz, that doesn't make him a hybrid safety

 

No but it shows he played the position well.

 

will hill isn't very good to elite at fs, he had one good year at fs for another team with a truly elite ss to allow him to play free, he is only elite on his own at SS and even that is a stretch. We don't have the supporting cast here for him to okay fs and he did not play very well at fs for us, he played decent at best and was moved to SS for a reason

 

Yes he is, He's had multiple good years at FS. I laugh at the fact you just called antrel rolle a good SS. He's had like one good year his enitre career. He was very good at FS in 2014 which was the position he played for the majority of snaps.

 

He moved to SS because the ravens saw Kendrick lewis as a FS who could create turnovers and so he MOVED.

 

You see I just can't agree with that. I don't like the idea of picking a SS this high. We don't even know if we are going to be able to keep Will Hill long-term, so how can you justify picking Ramsey when he is tied to Will Hill? It would have more validity if we lock up Will Hill long term but if we don't then I don't see the justification of picking Ramsey this high.

I also really disagree with Hargreaves being gone. Why should he? As of now we should be picking at 4, would Cleveland pick him? San Diego? Tennesse? I don't see any of these teams doing it and if they do that would drop Tunsil or Bosa to us or we are left with Stanley who Id def. pick over Ramsey.

 

Tunsil or bosa aren't getting out of the top four. Hargreaves is probaly going in the 5-8 range and we'll probaly be picking towards the back half of the top 10. Will hill is not going anywhere we're not gonna let our top Safety hit the FA market he's also not to tied to will hill at all. 

[PurpleCity5]

No but it shows he played the position well.

Yes he is, He's had multiple good years at FS. I laugh at the fact you just called antrel rolle a good SS. He's had like one good year his enitre career. He was very good at FS in 2014 which was the position he played for the majority of snaps.

He moved to SS because the ravens saw Kendrick lewis as a FS who could create turnovers and so he MOVED.

Tunsil or bosa aren't getting out of the top four. Hargreaves is probaly going in the 5-8 range and we'll probaly be picking towards the back half of the top 10. Will hill is not going anywhere we're not gonna let our top Safety hit the FA market he's also not to tied to will hill at all.

You think we're going to pick at the back of the top 10? Right now I don't see that happening. We're very likely to pick in the top 5. I don't see any circumstance that we don't unless we beat Pitt or Cin. In that event I don't see us getting passed top 5 and Bosa and Tunsil being a possibility for us is pretty good if Hargreaves goes into the top 3.

[January J]

Will Hill isn't a liability at FS....He's very good in coverage. We have THREE solid players (Will hill being a very good to elite player obviously) webb is a solid CB, Jimmy smith has shown he can play at a high level (Another year to get that foot right maybe?) Also Shareece Wright has played well somewhat he can be a solid no.4 CB for us. Vernon Hargreaves is a fit for our current system...which will likely change when pees gets fired/ Leaves/retires/whatever. On the small chance he DOES return then he's a perfect system I'm just being realistic since we'll probaly end up picking between 5-8 Ramsey is a solid fit there. 

Hargreaves will likely be gone by the time we pick, Ramsey is the top safety prospect in this class for a reason because he's a damn good safety.

dont forget about Will Davis.

[JoeyFlex5]

Rolle had 1 good year in 14? That tells me all I need to know, you just don't know what you're talking about. Have you forgotten about his years with the cardinals that hot him his fat pay day in the first place? Or are you just need to football?