[News] Late For Work 10/28: NFL Admits Refs Made Mistake, Explains How

[budman]

I thought J. Smith and Webb did a pretty good job considering who they were competing against. And to that the fact they had a backup safety, I'm gonna say I was satisfied.

I have to disagree with you here on Webb Sami. Webb just can't cover like he used to which is why he draws a lot of P.I calls or holding calls. imo he took the pay cut to stay because really he wouldn't be playing anywhere else. He is a liability but the fact is we really do not have anyone to replace him right now. My feeling is he is not here next year even though it will mean we eat some dead money.

[Purplepowers88]

I do not in any way blame the Refs for our loss, however on the interception a flag should have been thrown for pass interference because as you can clearly see, Gilmore was shoved in the back and that allowed Jefferson to make that catch. Had he not been pushed and kept his direction, Gilmore catches that for a Touchdown to tie the game. Still does not mean that we would have won, but we could have tied the game at that point.

I believe your original post was "They can apologize all they want but they still cost us this game." To me that sounds like blaming the refs for why we lost.

[WordProphet]

These refs are the worse refs I've ever seen, matter of fact these refs are worse then the scabs that took their place when the refs went on strike, but the NFL are the ones who hired these worse refs ever, and so are responsible for all the horrible blunders they make. But truly I don't believe that they are always blunders for I believe the NFL want certain teams to win or lose on purpose and the refs are the ones who can get that done and not be penalized for it!!! And then the NFL cannot be blamed for it but I truly believe that there is more to this then what can be seen!!!

[bioLarzen]

"Tolbert and his crew will not be punished because the mistake was determined “not to be critical to the outcome of the game"

 

The refs are human, too, they can - and do - make mistakes. Also, it would be kinda hard to prove that this bad deceison had any impact on the game. So, I think we should let it go - not as if there was too much we could do anyway.

 

One question, however, arises: where's parity? If the fact that the bad decision doesn't have any impact on the game can practically "negate" a bad decision, why do penalties that have absolutely no impact on the play still get called? When there's a running game going on the right edge of the field, and there's a holding on the right edge, 20-30 yards away from the ball - does it impact the outcome of the play - let alone the game - in any way? Or, when there's an illegal blocking for a punt/kick return half a field away from where the action is happening... Does it impact the outcome of the play in any way?

 

So, dear Officiating Body, let's make it democratic, because in this form it isn't. What is excused for a referee, should be excused for a player, too...

Edited October 28, 2015 by bioLarzen

[ellicottraven]

HOw did Torbert last 2 years. Send his butt packing to whatever his real job is! Absolutely worthless refereeing. To put such incompetent referees to manage a billion dollar sport is foolish. It is tantamount to asking a child to open up and repair your iPhone!

[budman]

I believe your original post was "They can apologize all they want but they still cost us this game." To me that sounds like blaming the refs for why we lost.

I never posted anything like that. Just responded to your quote.

[cobrajet]

If the refs mess up, they just need to admit it. Making false excuses just makes them look even more foolish.

[sami]

I have to disagree with you here on Webb Sami. Webb just can't cover like he used to which is why he draws a lot of P.I calls or holding calls. imo he took the pay cut to stay because really he wouldn't be playing anywhere else. He is a liability but the fact is we really do not have anyone to replace him right now. My feeling is he is not here next year even though it will mean we eat some dead money.

Webb held Fitzgerald to only 3 catches for 39 yrds. That pretty good considering Fitzgerald is having a pro-bowl type yr. That PI call in the end zone was bogus just like most of the calls the refs had.

[Ravenshine]

Ref admits it like: "oops, I was wrong, my bad." Well NFL, THATS just not good enough. You fine players and coaches when they do wrong, but all we get from ref is admidance? And where do they get off saying the calls didn't affect the outcome of game, how stupid is that remark? Oh, ok, penalties don't affect outcome of game huh, then stop giving them all together since according to this logic...they don't affect the game. Smh

[xCDx Disciple]

"Tolbert and his crew will not be punished because the mistake was determined “not to be critical to the outcome of the game"

 

The refs are human, too, they can - and do - make mistakes. Also, it would be kinda hard to prove that this bad deceison had any impact on the game. So, I think we should let it go - not as if there was too much we could do anyway.

 

One question, however, arises: where's parity? If the fact that the bad decision doesn't have any impact on the game can practically "negate" a bad decision, why do penalties that have absolutely no impact on the play still get called? When there's a running game going on the right edge of the field, and there's a holding on the right edge, 20-30 yards away from the ball - does it impact the outcome of the play - let alone the game - in any way? Or, when there's an illegal blocking for a punt/kick return half a field away from where the action is happening... Does it impact the outcome of the play in any way?

 

So, dear Officiating Body, let's make it democratic, because in this form it isn't. What is excused for a referee, should be excused for a player, too...

That's an excellent idea and question.  The non-impact fouls don't need to be called when they have nothing to do with the actual play.  We could cut down on so many penalties if they just dealt with the fouls that ACTUALLY impacted the play. I love it!

[Buckalice]

Frustrating aspect on the Chris Johnson play is that not much is being made about that. I think that play had much more impact then then ineligible receiver. I have not been able to watch a whole lot of games on TV this year but have caught some on the radio. I seem to remember the Ravens being penalized in either the Bronco's or the Raiders game for tackling a player after forward progress had been stopped. In fact I believe a commentator indicated it was a point of emphasis this year as a part of player protection. End of the day you play to the whistle and Brandon Williams should have held on but if we were indeed dinged on this I can see why he let him up. Still going to the game Sunday just hope to see less penalties and good play from this team.

[Asmodeus71]

Webb held Fitzgerald to only 3 catches for 39 yrds. That pretty good considering Fitzgerald is having a pro-bowl type yr. That PI call in the end zone was bogus just like most of the calls the refs had.

The end zone call was bogus. I watched that so many times, there was a hook and turn but the play was over when it happened. The ball was already missed so the hook and turn did not stop the receiver from catching the ball.

[Tenacious Faulker]

By no means am I trying to blame Joe Flacco for our loss Monday Night..As long as he is our quarterback, I'll continue to support him all the way...But OMG, on the play where he completed the lobbed pass to Gillmore for that completion near the endzone, he had Kamar Aiken running wide open towards the top of the screen for a TD..Kamar created separation at the line against the defender and there was NO ONE left on the backside to cover him..I guess Joe was under soo much pressure, he never saw him...To think, six properly executed plays is the difference between a 7-0 record and 1-6 record. Unbelievable

You can support Joe AND blame him too.  He is to blame for a number of missed opportunities that would've decided more than a few games this season.  With an arm like his there is no reason to have under thrown Givens (or Ross?) on that one deep ball tht would've been a score.  The INT that ended the game could've been avoided with Aiken open.  Joe is constantly staring down his target usually Steve Smith, although, he did the same thing to Gillmore in the two minute drill.  Joe latches onto favorite targets too much and makes it easy for DBs and LBs to determine his target.  He doesn;t step up into the pocket very often even when they do make room.

 

Joe has plateaued in his development IMHO.  He displays little in the way of game control like his contemporaries - Rogers, Dalton (this season), Rivers, and Roethlisberger.  When was the last time he tried to draw an off sides penalty with his count?  When was the last time he pump-faked the ball?  Why is he not running with the ball more for first downs and scores when necessary considering that he is more than capable of it?  He tries to carry the team on his shoulders but FAILS to take the game into his hands...or at least this season anyway.  He IS at least caling more audible, BUT that seems to be limited to the first half and disappears in the 2nd.

 

Joe certainly deserves his share of the blame - as much as the coaches and any other player that isn't playing to his full potential this year.  If he wants to be one of the greats, if he wants to make it to another SB, if he wants to start getting the credit he deserves he's going to have to be more decisicve, more confident in HIS vision, be more like the latter haf of his 2012-self and take the risks that HE (not his OC) feels is right.  I doubt they bench him for it when he makes a mistake too especially if he makes plays that lead to scores.

[Rat]

Webb is a liability.....agree he was on Fitz and he only had three catches, but Webb had help n two of the plays and Fitz dropped one, I believe.....but he missed several tackles....and got turned around once like a HS corner....

His rating that week is one of the lowest on the D.....I like the guy....but it's not about that.

Time to move on from him.....

[Purplepowers88]

I never posted anything like that. Just responded to your quote.

I apologize budman. You are correct - I thought you were the person who's post I initially responded to (probably not the best idea for me to comment on these boards while at work:). And your prior post makes a lot of sense to me as well

[jackrogers]

Brandon Williams stopped Chris Johnson's forward progress and the refs have stopped the Ravens forward progress all year. As usual the refs win and the Ravens lose.

[January J]

Didn't effect the outcome of the game? And who's to say that? That changed the entire momentum of the game, there is no telling how jumping out to an early 7 point lead could have effected the flow of the game.

[rmcjacket23]

Full-time refs are essential but I don't understand when you say what do they do for 7-8 months of the year is confusing.  First, there is not a 7-8 month lull in the football calendar.  This year Harbaugh was blasting the NFL for not allowing refs more than 2 appearances at training camp and OTA's where teams want refs.  Why? Because they have to be paid (not a problem for full time refs).  There is only about a 3 month lull and after their 4 week vacation, how about seminars and training sessions so refs know that correcting a number on a play that is dead and gone is less important than paying attention to what is happening on the field in front of him.  I don't understand the argument of then they would have to be paid.  We are talking about one of the richest organizations in the sports arena and they have millions and millions of dollars to throw at a legal case against Brady so they have the money to do that.  To argue the fans will complain if they make a mistake based on them making more money is ridiculous because how many fans even know what a ref makes.  They will complain if paying the refs more raises ticket prices, but fans will complain if they are making millions or they do it for free.  Full time refs are a must, the refereeing in the NFL is especially horrendous league-wide.  Seems there are 5 or 6 apologies a week from the league office about incorrect calls and it soon has to be addressed.  Firing officials only means you are promoting college guys who will be far worse than the guys you are firing.  Those guys were so bad they caused the NFL to cave and actually agree to a contract with the refs when they striked 3 years ago.  This situation is the same thing and if the refs walk to get full time jobs, they will have to pay them based on what happened the last time.  The impetus for that was the calls were so bad they had to make a change, much like it is right now.

But they're already doing all the things you want them to be doing... and they're still not full-time. They're attending seminars and meetings on rule changes, rule enforcement, etc. They're watching videotapes of games they did and looking how to get better... and they're still part time.

 

So now you want them standing around on the sidelines at every OTA and training camp doing what exactly? 90% of the time we aren't scrimmaging each other... what are they doing? Blowing the whistle when somebody holds a tackling dummy?

 

The reason their compensation matters (and its published publicly in most cases... as it will be if they are full time) is because fans whine... A LOT. They complain A TON. They complain about players being overpaid, coaches being overpaid, trainers being overpaid, commissioners being overpaid, etc. Whenever the public determines that somebody isn't doing their job well, 100% of the time the first response is either to fire them or that they get paid too much.

 

Knowing that many veteran officials NOW make about $200K a year, you seriously think that fans won't throw a hissy fit when you start paying the officials $1M a year or more and they still make mistakes?

 

Lets call this what it really is... fans expect NFL officials to be perfect 100% of the time. Check the blogs on here during gameday... anytime there's something looks like a penalty, 100 people are posting about it. Doesn't matter if it was an obvious penalty or no penalty at all, they'll still complain about it. They spend more time in some cases complaining about officiating than they do complaining about the lack of execution on the teams part, which is far more prevalent in 100% of all games played, ever.

 

Making them work full-time will not solve that problem. Paying them more will not solve that problem. All it will do is make fans even more upset when mistakes are made, because now there's less of an excuse. Would it make less bad calls happen? Probably, but that won't even come close to making fans happy in that regard.

[Edgar]

The officiating was horrific and the league should be embarrassed.

[January J]

But they're already doing all the things you want them to be doing... and they're still not full-time. They're attending seminars and meetings on rule changes, rule enforcement, etc. They're watching videotapes of games they did and looking how to get better... and they're still part time.

So now you want them standing around on the sidelines at every OTA and training camp doing what exactly? 90% of the time we aren't scrimmaging each other... what are they doing? Blowing the whistle when somebody holds a tackling dummy?

The reason their compensation matters (and its published publicly in most cases... as it will be if they are full time) is because fans whine... A LOT. They complain A TON. They complain about players being overpaid, coaches being overpaid, trainers being overpaid, commissioners being overpaid, etc. Whenever the public determines that somebody isn't doing their job well, 100% of the time the first response is either to fire them or that they get paid too much.

Knowing that many veteran officials NOW make about $200K a year, you seriously think that fans won't throw a hissy fit when you start paying the officials $1M a year or more and they still make mistakes?

Lets call this what it really is... fans expect NFL officials to be perfect 100% of the time. Check the blogs on here during gameday... anytime there's something looks like a penalty, 100 people are posting about it. Doesn't matter if it was an obvious penalty or no penalty at all, they'll still complain about it. They spend more time in some cases complaining about officiating than they do complaining about the lack of execution on the teams part, which is far more prevalent in 100% of all games played, ever.

Making them work full-time will not solve that problem. Paying them more will not solve that problem. All it will do is make fans even more upset when mistakes are made, because now there's less of an excuse. Would it make less bad calls happen? Probably, but that won't even come close to making fans happy in that regard.

yep- the only solution to the problem would be to make every play and penalty challengable- but that comes with Some negative reprocussions as well. Edited October 28, 2015 by January J

[steelcityraven]

-7 equals 1-6 .... that is really all the football math we need to know!

[sami]

I love Joe, I really do but if we continue to lose and we get the 1st,2nd,or 3rd pick in the draft I would seriously think about going for a QB if theres a super good one available this yr.

[FloridalovesRavens]

Joe will be the first to let you know he owns his share of the blame. It is a team sport but the Ravens seem to not only battle the opponent but the refs as well.

[Roadrunner1970]

If the Ravens do end up with one of the top five picks I'm sure Ozzie with trade it back for more picks. That is his MO. If that happens I hope they make better picks then they have recently. Make sure the person being drafted in the first round has not had ANY prior injury or health issues. The Ravens have to start drafting smarter. Look how well the Bengals have done in the draft the last few years.

[merryjman]

I think what I like most about this losing season is that Bisciotti is not panicking and firing a bunch of staff the way othe rlosing teams have - he trusts the coaches and GM, and recognizes the obstacles the Ravens have had to face in terms of injury and dead cap money.

This is a rough ride so far, but we the fans should show the team and staff the same respect that Bisciotti has, and not start calling for so-and-so to be fired or released.

[Purplepowers88]

Breshad Perriman though......

[ittwasntme]

Im going to state a disclaimer first before anyone reads half this and thinks this is me hating on anyone. This is just something we gotta look at this year

Offense - Is joe our guy? I ask this because if he is we need to bring in (draft, trade of FA) Guys that can be offensive leaders. Joe just does not have the Genetic makeup to play and be that leader like so many other QBs in the league. He needs a supporting cast that will carry him. Hes never shown to be that guy. So why do we keep putting him with WRs who are no bodies and walk ons it seems?

If hes not, and if we are seriously going to questions our selves on whether or not he is. Then lets start considering drafting someone. Especially someone that is fine with a west coast style offense. We know the offense we want, we know we walk a run first team. Has anyone taking alook at Tyrod Taylor this year in buffalo? Yea hes injured but have you seen the production he has had with young receivers?

To many times this year, Ive seen joe being sacked focusing on the deep ball. instead of looking for the plays that will get yards. Maybe thats the read he was given or the play they wanted to go with, or the fact none of our WRs can get open. So you take alook further up the food chain. Why? Why are we not as coaches putting out players in the best POSSIBLE position to win....

Is Webb serious someone we want to move forward with? Knees surgeries can slow a guy down, age can slow a guy down. Injuries in general can slow a guy down. And it seems webb has slowed the heck down. lets face it injuries have hit our defense again this year. webb has all but dropped off, last year he was 107th-ranked corner who had six passes defensed and had allowed 72.2 percent of the passes to be completed against him. just a food for thought

is this the production our team wants from our front seven? There is no pressure ZERO none, and when there was our corners were being ripped. Not just this last week but this season since suggs went down.

Our draft classes for the last few years has been horrendous in general terms. we have found ourselves wasting picks on players that dont amount to anything more then players who have. Lets look at last years WRs who were drafted after Periman

(29). Indianapolis Colts - Phillip Dorsett, WR, Miami (167yards this season)
(37). New York Jets - Devin Smith, WR, Ohio State (60Yards this season)
(40). Tennessee Titans - Dorial Green-Beckham, WR, Missouri (92 yards this season)
(41). Carolina Panthers - Devin Funchess, WR, Michigan (82 yards this season)
(69). Seattle Seahawks - Tyler Lockett, WR, Kansas St. (217yards this season)
(70). Houston Texans - Jaelen Strong, WR, Arizona St (58 yards this season)


these are players who most are not even expected to play much their rookie year because they have veterans who are healthy playing. However did we just not even look at Tyler Lockett for any reason? Speed, and skill set, early second round pick. Im really beginning to question some of our first round picks last couple of years.

now I get thats how the football bounces but we pay the coaches and the scouts and the trainers to get the best nfl raven team to play each year and tbh last 3 years we really havent. Anyone see Brady rip our secondary apart last year in the playoffs? Injuries are injuries Again its not an excuse on that whooping we got as far as stats were concerned

Edited October 28, 2015 by ittwasntme

[MobtownRavens]

What's the solution to the Ref Problem? (and yes, it is a HUGE problem, for ALL fans)...

 

Well, here's my simple fix: Coaches get two red challenge flags per game. Why, then, do officials have no such limit on their available yellow penalty flags?

 

IMHO, each ref should only have 4-5 flags to throw per game. Each flag triggers an automatic video review of the play in New York, and if any of their thrown flags are "picked up" and/or overturned on review, they surrender that thrown flag - just as a coach would lose his challenge.

 

In this system, not ALL plays would be reviewable, but ANY time a flag is thrown, that act triggers an immediate and mandatory video review from the league office in New York - the outcome would NOT be decided by a conference of officials on the field.

 

If in-game decisions are so often about "judgement calls", as Blandino and Werder insist, then refs should have to exercise actual judgement by deciding that the foul they are calling a) actually happened;  had an actual effect on the outcome of a play; and c) is worth the potential risk of sacrificing one of their limited flags if overturned.

 

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear this community's opinions on whether this would be a workable idea. I think it makes as much or more sense than Belichick's "make all plays reviewable" or "make the refsfull-time employees", but I don't think I've ever seen it articulated anywhere as a realistic proposal.

Edited October 28, 2015 by MobtownRavens

[dorie80]

I'm noticing a lot of hate on the drafting by the ravens.. It is impossible to hit a homerun on every pick especially with the amount of picks we get. You can't call Perriman a bust when he hasn't played yet! You cant even say it was a bad draft pick because of a freak slow healing injury. I like Max and Boyle, I like Zadarius and Waller, Last year I love Mosely and Jernigan, I still think Brent Urban can be a great player in the future, and the year before we got Brandon Williams who is the best run defender defensive lineman in football! And Rick Wagner a solid tackle and Juice! Ozzie has still got it despite all the hate

[rmcjacket23]

What's the solution to the Ref Problem? (and yes, it is a HUGE problem, for ALL fans)...

 

Well, here's my simple fix: Coaches get two red challenge flags per game. Why, then, do officials have no such limit on their available yellow penalty flags?

 

IMHO, each ref should only have 4-5 flags to throw per game. Each flag triggers an automatic video review of the play in New York, and if any of their thrown flags are "picked up" and/or overturned on review, they surrender that thrown flag - just as a coach would lose his challenge.

 

In this system, not ALL plays would be reviewable, but ANY time a flag is thrown, that act triggers an immediate and mandatory video review from the league office in New York - the outcome would NOT be decided by a conference of officials on the field.

 

If in-game decisions are so often about "judgement calls", as Blandino and Werder insist, then refs should have to exercise actual judgement by deciding that the foul they are calling a) actually happened;  had an actual effect on the outcome of a play; and c) is worth the potential risk of sacrificing one of their limited flags if overturned.

 

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear this community's opinions on whether this would be a workable idea. I think it makes as much or more sense than Belichick's "make all plays reviewable" or "make the refsfull-time employees", but I don't think I've ever seen it articulated anywhere as a realistic proposal.

But do you realize the gigantic can of worms you are opening up by doing this? You're basically making refs prioritize the number of flags they throw based on information they can't possibly have, and you're also forcing them to make a judgment that you really don't want them making. Is it a horrendous idea? No, but you're also advocating for the potential of 20-25 booth reviews per game, which will, at a minimum, add 30 minutes to an hour to a game that's already 3+ hours long typically.

 

Just don't see how you can put a limit to the number of penalties an official can call. I'm not even aware of a sport where that actually works. 

 

As it were, I wouldn't solve any problem, because I'm not convinced there is one. I think its a classic overreaction by the fanbase, and one that would be reacted to a whole heck of a lot less if this team wasn't 1-6. If they were 5-2, I'm not even sure this is more than a passing comment or two, nothing more. 

 

The officials just have to do better. I don't think they're really better or worse than they've been in the past, but they can certainly do better. I don't think any changed proposed are reasonable solutions to a problem that may not even exist to begin with.