[News] Crockett Gillmore, Joe Flacco Break Down Final Interception

[Moderator 3]

Joe went to the well once to often.

When you throw the ball 40 times, bad things are bound to happen.

[rmcjacket23]

Tyrod and the bills have been playing with injuries as well. Sammy Watkins has been hurt and so has Shady. Im not saying Tyrod is better than Flacco, but Tyrod is better than Flacco this year. I watch both of them play. I don't just watch the Ravens, I watch football. Joe has regressed. He throws a lot off his back foot for some reason, and throws a lot of floaters that Anquan use to make up for. He also throws the deep ball to short, which we have seen this year. The only thing that made up for that was Torrey's ability to draw the PI on a lot of those underthrown balls. Joe doesn't have that now.

And there's a reason he throws a lot off his back foot... part of it is because, yes, he has regressed, and much of it is because nobody on the planet thinks his offensive lines pass blocking is anywhere near is good as it was last season. Similarly, when you don't have playmakers on the outside, you can blitz him more often, like the Cardinals did.

 

Stats do lie, and they can be manipulated. Want proof?

 

You guys keep saying that Tyrod throws less INTs, which he does. But there's one thing you're forgetting... how many times is he throwing the ball? Tyrod has attempted 137 passes this year in five games, an average of 27 attempts per game. He's had two games where he didn't even attempt 20 passes, and has attempted 40 passes only once this year.

 

Joe, on the other hand, has attempted 287 passes in 7 games, an average of 41 passes per game (17 per game more than Tyrod). He's thrown over 40 balls in 4 games this year. 

 

So, for context, that's 1 INT per 36 passes for Joe, and 1 INT per 34 passes for Tyrod. If you went straight to the ESPN stats board, and sorted by INTs, you'd say "o look, Tyrod's thrown half as many INTs as Joe... he must be really good". He's played two games less, and he's thrown the ball less than half as many times.

 

Is that his fault? No, that's a function of the offense he plays in. He's got a pretty consistent running game and a defensive loaded with talent. Joe largely has neither.

 

For even more context...

 

Joe's on pace to break his career high in attempts. He's on pace for 656 attempts.

 

If we sampled Joe's regular season career, he throws an INT on every 40.6 pass attempts on average. If you project that over 656 attempts, based on volume alone and the QB he's always been (nothing new), he'd be projected to throw roughly 16-17 INTs this season. On his current pace, he will throw 18-19 INTs.

 

We're not talking about a mind blowing difference here.

 

If you want him to be better, play better elsewhere. 2012 and 2014 were easily his best seasons. He averaged 543 pass attempts over those two seasons. He's on pace to throw about 120 more than that, which is about 7-8 attempts per game.

 

You want better production? Throw the ball 7-8 times a game less. You do that by running the ball better and playing better defense (not consistently trailing in games).

Edited October 28, 2015 by rmcjacket23

[cobrajet]

I know QB's have to put it up for their receivers to make plays sometimes, but you can't keep forcing jump balls. Personally that particular play was on Joe. Even though I am a huge Flacco fan and agree he has limited weapons this season, I agree he has thrown way too many questionable INT's this season. IMHO I also don't think Trestman has put Joe and our offense in the best situations regarding the playcalling this season. It really looks to me like the offense as a whole has taken a step back even if our ranking says we not that bad. It just seems to me we moved the ball better last season and did not get shut down for long periods of time, but I am sure a lot of fans will make the excuse that it is because we don't have Torrey as our deep threat anymore. IMHO I am not convinced that this year it matters that much. I guess if Perriman gets healthy this season we can see if things get any better.

[Run Pass Pass Punt]

Pretty simple actually... look at the players he's playing with. You're going to the boxscore and taking statistics that are based on numerous factors and applying them solely to an individual, which is why when people evaluate QBs these days, they don't do such a thing.

 

I get the love for QBR as an ESPN groupie, but seriously, nobody recognizes that as a stat. Its QB rating, which nobody liked or understood, converted to a number between 0 and 100... thats it. Every other sports site on the planet mocks ESPN on a daily basis for coming up with another meaningless statistic that nobody knows how to calculate. Its a made for TV stat.

 

What makes you think QBs these days are judged by on completion percentage or even TD/INT ratio? If I considered TD/INT ratio to be a heavily weighted stat, then I'd think Andrew Luck has been a mediocre QB for years, but anybody that actually watches games can tell differently. If I considered completion percentage to be a heavily weighted stat, than RGIII is one of the best QBs I've ever seen.

 

If I actually watched other QBs play, nobody would be impressed by most of anything QBs are doing these days. As I said earlier, there's 6-7 guys playing at a high level, and then there's everybody else in a group who are sometimes good, sometimes bad, and are largely dependent on players around them to even win a game at this point. Flacco falls in that group. If the personnel around them is better (Tyrod), then they win more games. If its not, like a Stafford, then they aren't winning many games.

 

Numbers lie all the time. They lie when they have no context, they lie when you mix a bunch of numbers together to form a different number that nobody understands (hello QBR), and they lie when flaws of other plays lead to a statistical change in an individual player.

That is just rediculous. I'm done man. Luck is a Mediocre QB. Stafford doesn't have offensive weapons?! Megatron, Tate, Ebron, Pettigrew, Abdullah, Bell. seriously do you even watch watch FB bro? So following your logic Joe is the best QB because his weapons are the worst. I think you're just trolling now. Hate to tell you but we don't have the worst TE/WRs in the league, keep drinking that koolaid. You have just said only you are able to judge QB's talent by your eye test and nothing else matters and all QB's success is attributed to their playmakers... this is like having a convo w my 10 year old. Trying to discredit Tyrod's limited success up there... shame on you.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Run Pass Pass Punt

[Crusader]

"When you throw the ball 40 times, bad things are bound to happen. " You took it the wrong way. Remember M Brown 8ft jump pass in the end zone. 7 touchdowns 2013. What the heck happen to that play?

[JayRaven82]

You know what good QBs do when the pressure comes from the outside? Step up in the pocket. I'm not buying into the "The receivers aren't getting separation" talk. I have seen with my own eyes, receivers wide open and Joe doesn't look their way. This is Joes 8th season? What we see is what we get. He isn't going to carry a team by himself, and needs someone like Torrey and someone Like Anquan. They need to draft a big receiver like Carolina did for Cam (Because Cam Newton consistently misses high, and that's the reason for moving on from Steve smith). Torrey knew how to draw the PI on underthrown deep balls, and as we have seen this season, a lot of Joes balls are underthrown.

I don't see this as doom and gloom though. Lets get a a high draft pick. Its not like we are going out and getting blown out every game. we are missing a strong pass rush, which helps our DBs on the back end. I think we are only a few pieces away from being contenders again. All we need is a good draft and actually make moves come FA, and we have the cap space next year to do so.

[Prino61]

Bring Pitta back next week. Im not watching this team anymore this year.. I will dedicate myself only to the Packers gamesthe rest of the season.(My other team).. Unless Ravens play Pitta next week... Get serious about winning, and attempt to make the playoffs. Otherwise just tank and get the top 3 pick.. And I'll comeback next year.

But atleast put a real team on the field. Pitta next week, bring Perriman back by months end....make a serious push at WC

you dont sound like a true Ravens fan

[rmcjacket23]

That is just rediculous. I'm done man. Luck is a Mediocre QB. Stafford doesn't have offensive weapons?! Megatron, Tate, Ebron, Pettigrew, Abdullah, Bell. seriously do you even watch watch FB bro? So following your logic Joe is the best QB because his weapons are the worst. I think you're just trolling now. Hate to tell you but we don't have the worst TE/WRs in the league, keep drinking that koolaid. You have just said only you are able to judge QB's talent by your eye test and nothing else matters and all QB's success is attributed to their playmakers... this is like having a convo w my 10 year old. Trying to discredit Tyrod's limited success up there... shame on you.

I'm just using your own logic against you at this point. If we're going to play the "lets go to the boxscore and pretend like stats don't lie" argument, then yes, Andrew Luck is a mediocre QB. What about him this season, specifically, makes him better than Flacco statistically? There really is nothing. The reason he's NOT a mediocre QB, just like Joe is not a mediocre QB, is because people actually watch him play.

 

You're right... Stafford does have weapons. I also noticed you didn't name any offensive lineman in your list of weapons (the Lions biggest problem) and you didn't name any defensive players in his list of weapons (second biggest problem). What good is having a good QB with good weapons if you've got a terrible offensive line and a terrible defense? That smells like a 4-5 win team to me. And since my comment was specifically about wins in regard to Stafford, that's what matters.

 

What exactly am I supposed to give Tyrod credit for specifically? He looks just as mediocre as practically the entire NFL at the QB position, and his team is 3-4. What, precisely, am I supposed to be impressed by? The fact that they have a better record than the Ravens? Is that what passes for credit these days... that your team isn't 1-6? LOL.

 

Its time to join 2015. This ain't the 90s anymore. Nobody cares about passing yardage, completion percentage, QBR, etc. in an era where corners can't touch receivers, you can't hit the QB below the waist or above the belly button, and teams throw the ball 40+ times a game weekly. Why am I supposed to be impressed by monsterous statistical output in an era that's designed for monsterous statistical output?

 

Similarly, I'm not foolish enough to assign W/L records to individual players in a sport that requires at least 25+ guys to make great contributions to the outcome. We give QBs credit for wins when they throw 10 passes for 30 yards, and we give them credit for losses when they throw for 400 yards and 6 TDs. 

 

The correct way to evaluate QBs in this day and age really doesn't exist. Stats guys will be stats guys when it benefits their argument (Peyton Manning fans) and wins guys will be wins guys when it benefits their argument (Flacco fans). Both arguments are incredibly flawed.

[Run Pass Pass Punt]

I'm just using your own logic against you at this point. If we're going to play the "lets go to the boxscore and pretend like stats don't lie" argument, then yes, Andrew Luck is a mediocre QB. What about him this season, specifically, makes him better than Flacco statistically? There really is nothing. The reason he's NOT a mediocre QB, just like Joe is not a mediocre QB, is because people actually watch him play.

 

You're right... Stafford does have weapons. I also noticed you didn't name any offensive lineman in your list of weapons (the Lions biggest problem) and you didn't name any defensive players in his list of weapons (second biggest problem). What good is having a good QB with good weapons if you've got a terrible offensive line and a terrible defense? That smells like a 4-5 win team to me. And since my comment was specifically about wins in regard to Stafford, that's what matters.

 

What exactly am I supposed to give Tyrod credit for specifically? He looks just as mediocre as practically the entire NFL at the QB position, and his team is 3-4. What, precisely, am I supposed to be impressed by? The fact that they have a better record than the Ravens? Is that what passes for credit these days... that your team isn't 1-6? LOL.

 

Its time to join 2015. This ain't the 90s anymore. Nobody cares about passing yardage, completion percentage, QBR, etc. in an era where corners can't touch receivers, you can't hit the QB below the waist or above the belly button, and teams throw the ball 40+ times a game weekly. Why am I supposed to be impressed by monsterous statistical output in an era that's designed for monsterous statistical output?

 

Similarly, I'm not foolish enough to assign W/L records to individual players in a sport that requires at least 25+ guys to make great contributions to the outcome. We give QBs credit for wins when they throw 10 passes for 30 yards, and we give them credit for losses when they throw for 400 yards and 6 TDs. 

 

The correct way to evaluate QBs in this day and age really doesn't exist. Stats guys will be stats guys when it benefits their argument (Peyton Manning fans) and wins guys will be wins guys when it benefits their argument (Flacco fans). Both arguments are incredibly flawed.

Yeah how silly of me not to list defensive players and lineman in regards to a QBs weapons... You win... there's no way to evaluate a QB... smh. The most important position in sports has no qualifying statistics, genius.

[riseNConquer81]

the standard for "breakout seasons" has gotten very low around here...that's part of the problem.

[riseNConquer81]

Hate to tell you but we don't have the worst TE/WRs in the league

lol we don't?

who is worse?

[riseNConquer81]

This one is simple, Cards watched film, blitz Flacco and ball will get lobbed to Gilmore in center of end zone, hence why two defenders were with Gilmore. GO RAVENS!

except they rushed six and played man, so it was 1 on 1, and they had just completed the very same play for 20+ yards on the previous down.

[#hashtag]

"and a 37 year old with a broken back."

SSS is 36. He'll be 37 when he's Playing Next Season

[Run Pass Pass Punt]

lol we don't?

who is worse?

I'd take ours over the Browns, Rams, Seahawks, Chiefs, Panthers and Redskins... add in the injuries and you can probably find a couple more if you're saying right now. Were in the bottom 1/4 no doubt... def need to address this next year esp not knowing about Perriman. Bad part is we can't draft WR and there's not many FA we'd want in this upcoming offseason. MAYBE... Boldin, Sanu, Floyd, Jeffrey... If you want some headaches Harvin and Gordon will be there...

 

I hope we go after some secondary help like Reggie Nelson, Leon Hall, Sean Smith, or Amukamara... Weddle prb out of our $$$ range.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Run Pass Pass Punt

[ellicottraven]

Joe didn't give Gillmore a chance at catching that ball. It was too deep for him to catch. That is just the truth of it.

[January J]

Joe didn't give Gillmore a chance at catching that ball. It was too deep for him to catch. That is just the truth of it.

if Crockett wasn't pushed and he saw the ball a little sooner he most definitely could have had a shot to catch it. However in hindsight I do wish he would have just darted it to Crockett short of the goal line and let him fight his way into the end zone. I would trust him to do that with no doubt in my mind.

[January J]

And these are the types of comments that make no sense. So let's blame Gilmore for not getting behind the coverage of a safety playing over the top of him... seriously? Do you not realize that when Joe is at the line and there are 6 rushers lined up in his face it is his responsibility to change the pass pro to pick that up? Of course you'll have pressure when you don't account for a free blitzer... look at Gilmore's route - the ball is clearly 1. behind him and 2. over his head where Mathieu had help waiting... that's what happens when you throw off your back foot. That's not an opinion just watch the video, OMG. He was inside/underneath the safety so throw it low and give him a chance to box him out like a forward posting someone up so he can use his size/height to his advantage. Can we really not expect our QB to think throw the ball away and give us a chance to fight another play instead of forcing it into double coverage? Are we really to that point where the absolute basic can't be expected?

I agree he does throw off his backfoot and lob the ball a little too often- but in this instance he didn't have much of a choice. First of all he has a couple defenders barreling down on him , preventing him from stepping into the throw. Had he even taken another .5 of a second to set his feet or step forward he would have surely been sacked. And 2- if he hadn't of put some air under it the ball would have been batted down by the defensive line. He put the ball up to our tallest and biggest tight end and gave us a chance - and 9 times out of 10 I like those chances. Real easy to say what he would've should've and could've done in hindsight. And it was pretty remarkable he got us down to the goal line in that situation in the first place- with a bunch of no name receivers and a top notch Arizona secondary ..in a hurry up situation and in their house. That 4th down he extended was amazing in itself. Edited October 28, 2015 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

Yeah how silly of me not to list defensive players and lineman in regards to a QBs weapons... You win... there's no way to evaluate a QB... smh. The most important position in sports has no qualifying statistics, genius.

Well, yes, actually, it is silly of you.

 

This ain't fantasy football or Madden. Things like offensive line matter to a QB (has for about a century now), just like things like how many points their defense gives up matters to a QB (has for about a century now).

 

There's certainly plenty of qualifying statistics, just not any good ones. ESPN comes up with a new qualifying statistic ever year seemingly, and all of them are garbage, which is why they are mocked by other networks. Just like there's plenty of ways to evaluate a QB... and all of them are subjective and meaningless.

 

I'm stunned that this concept is beyond the comprehension of some people...

[January J]

That is just rediculous. I'm done man. Luck is a Mediocre QB. Stafford doesn't have offensive weapons?! Megatron, Tate, Ebron, Pettigrew, Abdullah, Bell. seriously do you even watch watch FB bro? So following your logic Joe is the best QB because his weapons are the worst. I think you're just trolling now. Hate to tell you but we don't have the worst TE/WRs in the league, keep drinking that koolaid. You have just said only you are able to judge QB's talent by your eye test and nothing else matters and all QB's success is attributed to their playmakers... this is like having a convo w my 10 year old. Trying to discredit Tyrod's limited success up there... shame on you.

I think it's pretty safe to say we definitely have one of if not THE worst. I mean this is still the nfl so they are still professionals - but compared to other teams around the league were pretty damn bad in that category. It has been said by dozens of analysts numerous times that we have the worst receiving corps. Our tight ends have crazy potential but they are all very young and extremely raw.

[riseNConquer81]

I'd take ours over the Browns, Rams, Seahawks, Chiefs, Panthers and Redskins... add in the injuries and you can probably find a couple more if you're saying right now. Were in the bottom 1/4 no doubt... def need to address this next year esp not knowing about Perriman. Bad part is we can't draft WR and there's not many FA we'd want in this upcoming offseason. MAYBE... Boldin, Sanu, Floyd, Jeffrey... If you want some headaches Harvin and Gordon will be there...

I hope we go after some secondary help like Reggie Nelson, Leon Hall, Sean Smith, or Amukamara... Weddle prb out of our $$$ range.

Seahawks is about the only group on that list you could make an argument for, but Jimmy Graham being there makes it tough.

If the Browns, Chiefs, Redskins, and Rams had better quarterbacks, they could easily be top 12 pass offenses. ANybody on all those other squads is eaily more trustworthy than anybody here outside of Smith Senior. They're faster, more experienced, more dynamic players all the way across the board.

Edited October 28, 2015 by riseNConquer81

[riseNConquer81]

Joe didn't give Gillmore a chance at catching that ball. It was too deep for him to catch. That is just the truth of it.

deep? it was second and goal from the 9, there was no room for anything to be "deep."

no one is so slow they cant run under a 14 yard pass.

Gillmore got pushed and quit the route.

[ravenwildman]

except they rushed six and played man, so it was 1 on 1, and they had just completed the very same play for 20+ yards on the previous down.

You're, right it was one on one (I remembered the safety coming over after the ball was thrown). But.......Tony Jefferson backed off the line, sprinted to the center of the end zone, and was in position over Gilmore as the blitz came, Had Gilmore slanted or anything else but that, the DB would have been out of position, and again you are also right, the Ravens did this before....that's how they knew exactly what they were going to do. My point was that the offense is way too transparent way too often with plays. GO RAVENS! 

[rmcjacket23]

deep? it was second and goal from the 9, there was no room for anything to be "deep."

no one is so slow they cant run under a 14 yard pass.

Gillmore got pushed and quit the route.

Probably a combination of many things. From the looks of it, play probably wasn't designed to go to Gillmore (though he might have been the 2nd or 3rd option on the route scheme), and the ball had to come out quicker than either was expecting. Gillmore was late recognizing the ball was in his direction and isn't quick enough to recover.

 

And the ball wasn't thrown that well, although its a tough throw to begin with.

[ravensohyea]

You throw into traffic when you absolutely know the receiver will win the contest. Gillmore is a 2nd year TE who never specialized in catching pre-NFL. Give him some time to build confidence before forcing him into the lime light. His off-sides penalty against the Cardinals at the end of the game shows how anxious the young guy is... and also tipped off their Defense.