Is John Harbaugh on the Hot Seat?

[edthehead]

If you all look at games we are and have been in a decline for years . ED and RAY on the field was a big help, but this candy team is HARBS,,  We played like everybody in the NFL hated us and it worked,, we had an attitude, we had passion and fire most of all we had heart,, today all we have is HARBS, goofy looks on the sideline, come on RAVENS NATION,HARB is a SPECIAL TEAMS coach,, like flacco needs a strong support cast , so do HARB . he can not do it himself,,,,  

[GrimCoconut]

At this point I think Engram is a saint with what he's done with guys like Aiken & Butler.

[K-Dog]

Maybe we are onto something. Maybe this is the new way to manage NFL teams and we as a fan base are ahead of the curve.

Can you imagine with SOME of this group?

 

Week one half the roster would be cut, the rest would be cut the following week, and we would have no one left to play.

[52520Andrew]

Can you imagine with SOME of this group?

Week one half the roster would be cut, the rest would be cut the following week, and we would have no one left to play.

The Browns would even be laughing at us

[StephenGreen]

The Browns would even be laughing at us

 

 

The Browns are laughing at us already.  

 

The major problem for us is 2-fold: bad long-term contracts, and critical injuries.  The first will take 2 more years to erase (assuming Ozzie is not allowed to overpay anymore); the second is simply bad luck.  

 

(I'd add a third, which is player discipline, but I think bad discipline comes with losing, and good discipline comes with winning.  One thing that sticks in my craw is Suggs showing up to camp so overweight...he was guaranteeing an injury somewhere...bodies can not take that kind of abuse at the NFL level)  

 

Oh well.  Onto to 2017...this year and next are washouts.  Sorry to be a debbie downer, but there is literally no magical escape valve.  We have to eat Suggs and Webb's deals before we open enough cap to get going again.  

 

I'm thinking that Bisciotti (gracefully) cans Ozzie if this team goes 2-14, but still exerts effort (he'll stick with Harbaugh if the effort is there...not much a guy can do with no talent).  The owner will seek one high profile firing, as they almost always do.  The problems here stem from the front office, and we are backed up for this season and next.  

[atomicfront]

Not one team in the NFL would give you even a 6th rounder for either.  PLUS, whatever you would get, you'd still be forced to pay their salary.  Suggs "WAS" a beast...not "is".  After tearing the same achilles 2x, he'll be lucky to walk properly again let alone play in the NFL let alone play at a premium level.   yet, he has two more hugely expensive GUARANTEED years left on his contract, with no way for the Ravens to get out from under the cap commitment (you can't even let him go without suffering the cap hit).

 

The same is basically true of Webb, with only a slightly lower cap hit.  Both guys were wildly overpaid, and will hurt us for some time yet.  

 

Bottom line is the Ravens need to do a much better job negotiating contracts going forward. Perennial winners like the Pats teach us that large contracts should only go to one player, the QB, with WR, TE, and DB the best place to invest otherwise...every other position is too easily replaced to lay your chips on, especially LB.  

 

Ravens will need two full more years to escape the cap hits that have already been agreed to.  

 

Well Webb is a cornerback which is a DB.  There are no better players than Webb available for a sixth round pick.  

 

And we certainly miss Suggs.  He is not overpaid at all.  He is injured.  If he weren't he would be a disruptive force on the field

[usmccharles]

The Browns are laughing at us already.  

 

The major problem for us is 2-fold: bad long-term contracts, and critical injuries.  The first will take 2 more years to erase (assuming Ozzie is not allowed to overpay anymore); the second is simply bad luck.  

 

(I'd add a third, which is player discipline, but I think bad discipline comes with losing, and good discipline comes with winning.  One thing that sticks in my craw is Suggs showing up to camp so overweight...he was guaranteeing an injury somewhere...bodies can not take that kind of abuse at the NFL level)  

 

Oh well.  Onto to 2017...this year and next are washouts.  Sorry to be a debbie downer, but there is literally no magical escape valve.  We have to eat Suggs and Webb's deals before we open enough cap to get going again.  

 

I'm thinking that Bisciotti (gracefully) cans Ozzie if this team goes 2-14, but still exerts effort (he'll stick with Harbaugh if the effort is there...not much a guy can do with no talent).  The owner will seek one high profile firing, as they almost always do.  The problems here stem from the front office, and we are backed up for this season and next.  

I understand this to an extent but Suggs has never been a workout warrior.  I dont think his injury is in anyway related to comming into camp out of shape....

[StephenGreen]

Well Webb is a cornerback which is a DB.  There are no better players than Webb available for a sixth round pick.  

 

And we certainly miss Suggs.  He is not overpaid at all.  He is injured.  If he weren't he would be a disruptive force on the field

 

 

The past tense.  He would have been a disruptive force.  

 

Almost impossible to come back in any kind of elite fashion from a 2x torn Achilles.  His contract will absolutely kill us for two more years...while he in almost all likelihood does nothing, either from the sideline or as retired.  

 

We need to stop overpaying guys. Bottom line.  I can just as easily lose with a bunch of undrafted players as I can with overpaid players.  The difference between the options is at least with the low-paid undrafted players, I have some wiggle room should there be a window to the playoffs. 

[52520Andrew]

The Browns are laughing at us already.

And they would be laughing at us even more and for years

[The Mom Gene]

The past tense.  He would have been a disruptive force.  

 

Almost impossible to come back in any kind of elite fashion from a 2x torn Achilles.  His contract will absolutely kill us for two more years...while he in almost all likelihood does nothing, either from the sideline or as retired.  

 

We need to stop overpaying guys. Bottom line.  I can just as easily lose with a bunch of undrafted players as I can with overpaid players.  The difference between the options is at least with the low-paid undrafted players, I have some wiggle room should there be a window to the playoffs. 

 

except that he had two ACL's not Achilles.

[Drew P]

Harbs should be coach of the year winning 2 games with this group of wayward souls and the never ending injuries.

 

Add to the fact that Trestman nor Pees could coach a dog from a doghouse with a t-bone steak in hand...tough situation.

[GrimCoconut]

I'm a little pissed off at Harbaugh at the moment. I don't want him fired but he needs to fix this team and get his team under control. Perhaps the lack of motivation at times is a result of him and not Pees. I'm starting to wonder. 

[BmoreBird22]

I'm a little pissed off at Harbaugh at the moment. I don't want him fired but he needs to fix this team and get his team under control. Perhaps the lack of motivation at times is a result of him and not Pees. I'm starting to wonder. 

How he handled the whole Perriman situation has me terribly upset right now and has left a sour taste in my mouth, but I don't think he's on the hot seat this year. It'd be a different story if he were to have this season again next year.

[GrimCoconut]

How he handled the whole Perriman situation has me terribly upset right now and has left a sour taste in my mouth, but I don't think he's on the hot seat this year. It'd be a different story if he were to have this season again next year.

I'm pretty furious with Harbaugh on that. I think he definitely lied because I can't see why Perriman would know that he suffered a setback and he didn't. Someone I'm sure may make the argument that Harbaugh didn't know about the setback, which is possible, but that's also proof of incompetence. He's the freaking HC and should know the status of his players. If he can't manage the condition of his players and know whether or not they're injured, then he needs a bit more awareness in that area and others. Perhaps this is the reason why we've struggled--because he doesn't have the awareness he should.

 

Then again, I honestly don't think Harbaugh doesn't have awareness of this team and he seems like a very good coach who knows what's happening with every player on the team, whether they're on the active 53, practice square, or IR. As a result, I think he flat-out lied to us and the media, which I see absolutely no benefit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he told the truth about the injury since the agent never refuted it, but he's frankly arrogant for assuming we'd be OK having him lie to us and the truth never coming out. He should've said that Perriman suffered a setback. 

 

I'm not calling for his job. I just want him to realize the mistakes he's made and set it right and not make them again. He needs to cut out the lying and be more like Belichick in that he just doesn't answer the question. 

[rmcjacket23]

I think he's feeling pressure anyway, whether it's real or not I hope not. Don't want to jump the gun. If it happens again next year, 3 out of 4 years, then yea he will be... as would flacco

Harbaugh yes, Flacco probably not. QBs don't really get fired for not winning games, and unless there's an Andrew Luck-level generational QB talent in the draft and we are picking early enough to get him, the ability to replace Flacco with anybody in the draft is almost non existent in the near future.

[-Truth-]

How he handled the whole Perriman situation has me terribly upset right now and has left a sour taste in my mouth, but I don't think he's on the hot seat this year. It'd be a different story if he were to have this season again next year.

 

Right there with you and GrimCoconut. From what I've gathered from the interview, Perriman felt like his condition improved, went out for the pre-game work out, heard a pop, underwent tests, and was then told that his tear is worse than it was initially, which was weeks ago. That's a significant setback in my eyes, so for Harbaugh to publicly imply otherwise comes off as either uninformed or disingenuous. It certainly built up the recent disappointment and only raised questions about Perriman's desire, pain threshold, etc. I'm not fond of how the situation was handled.

[BmoreBird22]

Right there with you and GrimCoconut. From what I've gathered from the interview, Perriman felt like his condition improved, went out for the pre-game work out, heard a pop, underwent tests, and was then told that his tear is worse than it was initially, which was weeks ago. That's a significant setback in my eyes, so for Harbaugh to publicly imply otherwise comes off as either uninformed or disingenuous. It certainly built up the recent disappointment and only raised questions about Perriman's desire, pain threshold, etc. I'm not fond of how the situation was handled.

The one thing that annoys me most is that directly after the game, reporters are asking about the injury and he just goes, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

You're the head coach. Shouldn't you know about an injury to your first round pick? It was so poorly handled and I'm a bit disgusted because it turned 80% of the board against Breshad.

[berad]

The one thing that annoys me most is that directly after the game, reporters are asking about the injury and he just goes, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

You're the head coach. Shouldn't you know about an injury to your first round pick? It was so poorly handled and I'm a bit disgusted because it turned 80% of the board against Breshad.

 

80% is a bit high. I think it was more of a vocal minority. Probably people of a similar mindset who would harrange him on other social media.

 

Harbaugh has always done the routine of being candid and honest about some topics, sometimes, and clams up about the same things other times. Probably has something to do with his mood at the time, current events, him being coy, not wanting to play into the media game, whatever. But this topic was the topic of the year. He fielded questions on it daily, the reporters wanted to know. They were probably also needling other players, coaches, staff, etc. That led to some confusion, for sure.

Edited November 19, 2015 by berad

[-Truth-]

The one thing that annoys me most is that directly after the game, reporters are asking about the injury and he just goes, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

You're the head coach. Shouldn't you know about an injury to your first round pick? It was so poorly handled and I'm a bit disgusted because it turned 80% of the board against Breshad.

Agreed on all accounts. That was exactly the moment I was referring to as well.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

Harb on the hot seat? No.

If this season continues the same as it started? No.

 

Will he be on the hot seat next season? Strong, strong maybe. Unless changes aren't made to change the player and fanbase 'trust' meter...it could be next coach up in 2017 even though it wouldn't be totally warranted.

 

Since the last Super Bowl: Trust Factors

• Leaving Perriman out to hang on his injury
• Allowing SSS back on the field with his injuries
• The approval to allow Flacco to play on 1 leg now knowing that Tyrod Taylor was more than able to play on this level as a fill-in if given the opportunity.
• When asked "Who is face of your franchise now?" once Ray retired
  He responds, "Who do you think the face of the franchise was?"
  Reporter responds like anybody on the planet would, "Ray Lewis..."
  Harb responds, "...If that's what you believe."
• The Ray Rice episode (Although he did all the right things for the most part)
• The so-called 'Player Revolt'

 

The list could go on but...it's all subjective. Subjective can get you fired in this league after 2 bad seasons. There will most likely be a scenario/narrative (He's lost the lockroom because the players don't trust him.) referencing some of things above.

[TDubbs]

Harb on the hot seat? No.

If this season continues the same as it started? No.

 

Will he be on the hot seat next season? Strong, strong maybe. Unless changes aren't made to change the player and fanbase 'trust' meter...it could be next coach up in 2017 even though it wouldn't be totally warranted.

 

Since the last Super Bowl: Trust Factors

• Leaving Perriman out to hang on his injury
• Allowing SSS back on the field with his injuries
• The approval to allow Flacco to play on 1 leg now knowing that Tyrod Taylor was more than able to play on this level as a fill-in if given the opportunity.

 

 

I agree that he's not on the hot seat this season, but I disagree with these 3 points. Harbaugh is a coach, not a doctor and he relies on team doctors to provide him w/ information; Might it be fair to criticize our medical staff?

 

- A PCL strain can heal pretty quick and I don't think he thought he'd end up on IR, see Eric Decker for comparison.

- SSS was cleared by medical staff to play, so Harbs listened to the Doctors and let him on the field.

- Again ... Flacco would have been examined by the Doctors and cleared to play.

[52520Andrew]

I'm a little pissed off at Harbaugh at the moment. I don't want him fired but he needs to fix this team and get his team under control. Perhaps the lack of motivation at times is a result of him and not Pees. I'm starting to wonder.

Between this situation and the throwing guys under the bus, I share your frustration. Don't want Harbs to go anywhwre either but it annoys me that he has to do that.

[DenverRaven]

I'm pretty furious with Harbaugh on that. I think he definitely lied because I can't see why Perriman would know that he suffered a setback and he didn't. Someone I'm sure may make the argument that Harbaugh didn't know about the setback, which is possible, but that's also proof of incompetence. He's the freaking HC and should know the status of his players. If he can't manage the condition of his players and know whether or not they're injured, then he needs a bit more awareness in that area and others. Perhaps this is the reason why we've struggled--because he doesn't have the awareness he should.

 

Then again, I honestly don't think Harbaugh doesn't have awareness of this team and he seems like a very good coach who knows what's happening with every player on the team, whether they're on the active 53, practice square, or IR. As a result, I think he flat-out lied to us and the media, which I see absolutely no benefit. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he told the truth about the injury since the agent never refuted it, but he's frankly arrogant for assuming we'd be OK having him lie to us and the truth never coming out. He should've said that Perriman suffered a setback. 

 

I'm not calling for his job. I just want him to realize the mistakes he's made and set it right and not make them again. He needs to cut out the lying and be more like Belichick in that he just doesn't answer the question. 

 

Gotta admit, I'm pretty upset with how this was handled too. I think Harbaugh is extremely prideful, and has looked disappointed all around dating back to preseason. It would seem that some of the pressure has gotten to him this year, and it shows in pressers and interviews.

 

I do think he's always had an arrogant side to him. That said, he's still a great coach and will likely rebound next year (we hope). I don't think he's on the hot seat this year, but as Biscotti has noted in the past, two losing seasons in a row are not acceptable.

 

We'll see.

[StephenGreen]

except that he had two ACL's not Achilles.

 

 

You might be right, I obviously don't know for sure, but the news reports say that he tore the same achilles 2x, once in 2013, and again this year:  

 

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Terrell-Suggs-Suffers-Torn-Achilles-Done-For-Season/a3b443cd-f091-4218-98f7-73d454124d92

 

 

If it is an achilles, all I know about that is my brother tore his 2x, and was a D1 player, and if he wasn't basically done the first time out, he was seriously done the second time.  Could not push off the same foot ever again.  My gut tells me that Suggs is done.  And my only point on him is he is symptomatic of how the Ravens overpay for past performance, at positions which are more replaceable than others where we really do need help.  And Suggs' contract will crush us for next year, and only slightly less the year after that.  For a guy not likely to visit the playing field ever again.  

[allblackraven]

Harbs has bought himself a lot of credit with Steve B. and the fans and I don't think he's in much danger at the moment but he hasn't done the stellar job this year. Team isn't playing well, stupid stuff reoccurs on the field week after week and on top of all that, he has let his frustration show in public. I'm pretty sure he will be put on some sort of notice to get the control back into his hands.

Edited November 19, 2015 by allblackraven

[The Mom Gene]

You might be right, I obviously don't know for sure, but the news reports say that he tore the same achilles 2x, once in 2013, and again this year:  

 

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Terrell-Suggs-Suffers-Torn-Achilles-Done-For-Season/a3b443cd-f091-4218-98f7-73d454124d92

 

 

If it is an achilles, all I know about that is my brother tore his 2x, and was a D1 player, and if he wasn't basically done the first time out, he was seriously done the second time.  Could not push off the same foot ever again.  My gut tells me that Suggs is done.  And my only point on him is he is symptomatic of how the Ravens overpay for past performance, at positions which are more replaceable than others where we really do need help.  And Suggs' contract will crush us for next year, and only slightly less the year after that.  For a guy not likely to visit the playing field ever again.  

 

I would agree, EXCEPT...  we tend NOT to overpay..  Guys like Grubbs, Ellerbe, Kruger, Torrey, Ngata, I could go on and on...  We have seen where guys like some of these guys have underperformed greatly elsewhere after not getting paid.

[TDubbs]

Harbs has bought himself a lot of credit with Steve B. and the fans and I don't think he's in much danger at the moment but he hasn't done the stellar job this year. Team isn't playing well, stupid stuff reoccurs on the field week after week and on top of all that, he has let his frustration show in public. I'm pretty sure he will be put on some sort of notice to get the control back into his hands.

 

That's a very good assessment of the situation, imo. Harbs has given this franchise 8 years of service as a HC, which is an eternity in this business. Most people fail to realize the ridiculous hours these coaches put in to this, and even though they're well paid it still drains you. 

 

This isn't just on Harbs though, its on Ozzie and his entire staff. The coaching hasn't been stellar, but the talent isn't in place to work with either. Not to mention the ridiculous on field stuff that has plagued this team. 

 

If your Bisciotti of course Harbs has a longer leash than most coaches, he did coach a SB winning team as well as many other playoff wins. But in the end, what other available HC could do better? I can't think of a single one. 

[PurpleCity5]

I don't think Harbaugh should be on the hot-seat, but he had no hold in Perriman's injury debacle. He def. needs to be more upfront, it's obvious he doesn't really want to have the responsibilities of dealing with injuries and such, but you've got to do a better job than that. I honestly feel for Perriman. This wasn't fair to the guy. 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I agree that he's not on the hot seat this season, but I disagree with these 3 points. Harbaugh is a coach, not a doctor and he relies on team doctors to provide him w/ information; Might it be fair to criticize our medical staff?

 

- A PCL strain can heal pretty quick and I don't think he thought he'd end up on IR, see Eric Decker for comparison.

- SSS was cleared by medical staff to play, so Harbs listened to the Doctors and let him on the field.

- Again ... Flacco would have been examined by the Doctors and cleared to play.

It is really about perception. Those injury points will definitely to be considered when the questions of 'Trust' come-up (If there are 2 consecutive losing seasons). Not only with the fan-base (just read this forum) and the players (possible free agents, current players, etc.). I said that it would most possibly be unwarranted, but 'perception/speculation' would likely rule the day.

• Harb's handling of the Perriman injury reporting was not stellar and led fans to question the player, not the injury.

• Harb may a judgment call (after the medical team cleared Steve) that put him back on the field with "pins in his back". The 'perception' is not that medical staffs put him at risk - it would be (especially for players). "Really!!!? They put this pre-retirement veteran back out there with pins in his back? Now his season and career is over?"

• Flacco vs Tyrod: The Eye Test. Even though Flacco was cleared to play after that injury that would have sidelined 99% of the league for the season, he never played up to his ability for quite some time afterwards. The injury had an extremely noticeable (obvious) affect on his game. Add in - Now that we know that Tyrod (from recent game play) was in fact capable of performing at a good level to win some games - Joe could have healed more to be absolutely certain we did not risk the franchise.

None the points made aren't open to speculation if a losing season follows this season and every point will be discussed (as they have been in forum) over and over again. As I've said, "Speculation alone can lead to firings in this leave." whether it's unwarranted or not. He's not on the 'hot seat' right now, but he does have some work to do with perception in the eyes of the players and fans to turn this ship around.

[rmcjacket23]

It is really about perception. Those injury points will definitely to be considered when the questions of 'Trust' come-up (If there are 2 consecutive losing seasons). Not only with the fan-base (just read this forum) and the players (possible free agents, current players, etc.). I said that it would most possibly be unwarranted, but 'perception/speculation' would likely rule the day.

• Harb's handling of the Perriman injury reporting was not stellar and led fans to question the player, not the injury.

• Harb may a judgment call (after the medical team cleared Steve) that put him back on the field with "pins in his back". The 'perception' is not that medical staffs put him at risk - it would be (especially for players). "Really!!!? They put this pre-retirement veteran back out there with pins in his back? Now his season and career is over?"

• Flacco vs Tyrod: The Eye Test. Even though Flacco was cleared to play after that injury that would have sidelined 99% of the league for the season, he never played up to his ability for quite some time afterwards. The injury had an extremely noticeable (obvious) affect on his game. Add in - Now that we know that Tyrod (from recent game play) was in fact capable of performing at a good level to win some games - Joe could have healed more to be absolutely certain we did not risk the franchise.

None the points made aren't open to speculation if a losing season follows this season and every point will be discussed (as they have been in forum) over and over again. As I've said, "Speculation alone can lead to firings in this leave." whether it's unwarranted or not. He's not on the 'hot seat' right now, but he does have some work to do with perception in the eyes of the players and fans to turn this ship around.

These are all purely fan base perceptions though and there's no evidence they are shared by upper management, who are the only people who make the decision on whether or not Harbaugh is retained:

 

1. Correct, it led to FANS questioning this. I can assure you that the organization isn't questioning the handling of it, because they are the one's telling Harbaugh all the information he has, and possibly even what to say.

Completely fan perception and has no bearing on some phantom "trust" issue that Bischotti/Ozzie have with him, because they probably knew this information before Harbaugh did.

 

2. By all accounts, Steve talked his way into the lineup. Frankly, it wouldn't have made sense to sit him. He had already announced his retirement, so what exactly are we holding him out for? Another season that he said he wasn't coming back for?

Frankly, this is a non issue, because no reasonable fans think this way anyway. Didn't hear a single fan at any point in time saying "hey, we should shut Steve down for the season and rest him up for... retirement". If anything, Harbaugh's actions may have directly led to Steve coming back for another season, which would be a good thing.

So realistically, this is a plus for Harbaugh, not a minus.

 

3. This one is particularly ludicrous given that the whole concept is based on hindsight and "what if" scenarios that we already know didn't happen. Joe didn't get hurt any further, and we know this, so questioning the "what if he did" scenario doesn't work two years later. You said yourself "knowing what we know now", but this was 2 years ago, and 2 years ago, we didn't know what we know now.

 

Baseless.

 

Speculation can lead to firings... except speculation from fans has never once led to firings. They are not important to the decision making process.