The Joey Bosa thread

[flynismo]

On 4/7/2016 at 5:17 PM, Jacquouille said:

Do you guys believe that Bosa has reached his ceiling? I didn't take it seriously at first bu medias seem quite serious about it, you think there's any reason to care about this?

I think it is quite silly to say that a guy who has yet to see a snap in the NFL has reached his ceiling.

Physically, sure it's possible they're right -- although Bosa does still have a little room to pack a few pounds on his frame, or perhaps drop a few if needed. But that's only part of the equation...coaching/improving technique, scheme and intangibles all come into play when evaluating a guy's ceiling. It's been mentioned many times before, the only reason Suggs fell to us is because his meh workout led foolish teams to believe he had limited room to grow...I bet they felt stupid watching him get awarded defensive player of the year.

[Winchester]

On 4/7/2016 at 2:28 AM, Tru11 said:

he sure is better yes and if we draft him i sure expect him to bring more then what mcphee has brought so far.

all i have been saying so far.

Also i doubt he got double teamed on every single snap so dont exaggerate.
Not even Watt or miller or mack face a double team 100% of the time....

BTW pressures and QB hits are nice and all but by no means do they suggest all of them resulted in a positive play for the defense while a sack 100% of the time is a guaranteed positive result for the defense.

The results of a pressure on a QB hit could be anything from a completed pass for a TD all the way to an errand pass going the other way.

A sack is a loss of down with most of the time a loss of yards for the offense every time.

you guys are free to value pressure and QB hits the same as a sack but thats not how i see it.

 

i would take a player with 8-9 sacks and 98 pressures throughout the season to a player with 15 sacks and 35 pressures. A real pressure often results in not to successful play. Course the sack is better but I would place a higher value on consistent pressure. Breathing down the qbs neck neck throughout a game hitting and disrupting him

[Winchester]

3 hours ago, Italian Raven said:

Recently I didn't have much time to dig into other tapes but the MSU, Cle, Ore, Penn St, but  I couldn't find many situations of him winning around the edge.
If you do, please post them because I must have missed on them. His outside rip move is just bad because he lacks the explosiveness, balance and bending to perform it effectively.
When he gets the snap count right and swim his way between the G and the T he can be very dangerous.. but what he's missing are the essential skills to be a great 3-4 OLB. I'd rather try to trade back and get any guy like Floyd, Dodd in the 15-20 range who can give me what we're missing (explosiveness, bending) or wait until the second round and get Shilique or Fackrell; or even Schobert/Striker on day 3. 
Bosa would add some talent to the Dline but I find him more valuable inside, where his technique and moves have proven to be more effective.

Against the run he missed more tackles than any other pass-rusher I've seen yet.. even when he's able to control his gap and the RB runs right into his arms he's not as effective as you people make him sound like. He even overruns many more plays you would desire for a top 10 pick.
Calhoun, on the other hand, is not as flashy but he does his job. You'll never see him out of position. He possesses a higher football IQ, reads the screens with anticipation and takes good angles to cut those lanes off. 

Again, if anyone can show me that he's capable of winning around the corner on a constant base, please show me. I'm always willing to change my idea on things if what comes to light is convincing enough. I'm honestly trying to be as much unbiased as possible, even after his classless twitter rants and the unsalted interviews.

Twitter rants?? What did I miss??

[KBoum]

54 minutes ago, Winchester said:

i would take a player with 8-9 sacks and 98 pressures throughout the season to a player with 15 sacks and 35 pressures. A real pressure often results in not to successful play. Course the sack is better but I would place a higher value on consistent pressure. Breathing down the qbs neck neck throughout a game hitting and disrupting him

you're right about that and I feel the same. Sometimes I feel like Dumervil sacks come when the Ravens don't really need them.  I feel like a pass rushers needs to put pressure at crucial times during a game.

 

When you put pressure on a QB on a regular basis, it will affect him. He can get sacked on a 1st and 10 and the next two plays there's not pressure and he still get the 1st down. Ngakoue reminds me a bit of Dumervil in that sense : the few tapes I've watch he gets pressure or sacks when its not that important. I'm not saying sacks aren"t important but I like to see a QB under pressure resulting in bad throws, takeaways and you get in the QB head. Unlike a sack where the QB go back on his feet and there's not pressure for 10-20 plays so he regain his confidence. 

 

A good interior pass rush is very very good the QB can't step in his pocket and that has been a bit lacking last year. I feel like Jernigan was a lot better late in the season last year. Let's say they add a guy in the later rounds like Maliek Collins to provide that pass rush or bring Bosa in the nickle, dime package in the 5-tech that could help a LOT

[Italian Raven]

54 minutes ago, Winchester said:

Twitter rants?? What did I miss??

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2620811-joey-bosa-unleashes-on-twitter-with-rant-about-people-stalking-his-old-tweets

 

One could say 'you would have reacted the same way' but the thing is that I'm not about to get employed by a multi-millionaire company. 

And even if I were him I'd try to make my own interest (to shut up in order to show maturity to my future team, at least until May).

[chunkywill25]

Bosa reminds me of suggs so much. That's who I want. After jack of course lol

[ALPHA]

3 hours ago, Winchester said:

i would take a player with 8-9 sacks and 98 pressures throughout the season to a player with 15 sacks and 35 pressures. A real pressure often results in not to successful play. Course the sack is better but I would place a higher value on consistent pressure. Breathing down the qbs neck neck throughout a game hitting and disrupting him

It's not just pressures and sacks, Bosa consistently blows up his tackle on run downs and wears him out over the course of the game. The offense has to account for him on every snap not just obvious passing downs.

[Edgar]

On 4/6/2016 at 9:51 AM, Tru11 said:

6 hours ago, Italian Raven said:

Recently I didn't have much time to dig into other tapes but the MSU, Cle, Ore, Penn St, but  I couldn't find many situations of him winning around the edge.
If you do, please post them because I must have missed on them. His outside rip move is just bad because he lacks the explosiveness, balance and bending to perform it effectively.
When he gets the snap count right and swim his way between the G and the T he can be very dangerous.. but what he's missing are the essential skills to be a great 3-4 OLB. I'd rather try to trade back and get any guy like Floyd, Dodd in the 15-20 range who can give me what we're missing (explosiveness, bending) or wait until the second round and get Shilique or Fackrell; or even Schobert/Striker on day 3. 
Bosa would add some talent to the Dline but I find him more valuable inside, where his technique and moves have proven to be more effective.

Against the run he missed more tackles than any other pass-rusher I've seen yet.. even when he's able to control his gap and the RB runs right into his arms he's not as effective as you people make him sound like. He even overruns many more plays you would desire for a top 10 pick.
Calhoun, on the other hand, is not as flashy but he does his job. You'll never see him out of position. He possesses a higher football IQ, reads the screens with anticipation and takes good angles to cut those lanes off. 

Again, if anyone can show me that he's capable of winning around the corner on a constant base, please show me. I'm always willing to change my idea on things if what comes to light is convincing enough. I'm honestly trying to be as much unbiased as possible, even after his classless twitter rants and the unsalted interviews.

If I remember correctly, the best example would be against Rutgers(been awhile since I watched so don't hold me to it).

Though for the most part you are absolutely correct. He doesn't win that way very often. He may beat his guy with speed in what is essentially a straight line but this leaves him nine or ten yards deep and out the play.

 

 

 

[GrimCoconut]

Pressure is more important than sacks because pressure can lead to turnovers and incompletions and those are more vital than sacks but sacks are certainly the money maker. Don't get me wrong. 

[Willbacker]

1 hour ago, GrimCoconut said:

Pressure is more important than sacks because pressure can lead to turnovers and incompletions and those are more vital than sacks but sacks are certainly the money maker. Don't get me wrong. 

Gotta disagree with this. You can force turnovers with strip sacks and sacks are better than incompletions.

[ALPHA]

1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

Gotta disagree with this. You can force turnovers with strip sacks and sacks are better than incompletions.

Sacks and pressures go hand in hand. Defenses average 2 sacks a game, 3 if you're the Broncos, now that isn't a lot when you consider 30-40-50 passing attempts. Pressures (and QB hits) allow you to get in the QB's face and disrupt his timing over the course of the game.

[GrimCoconut]

1 hour ago, Willbacker said:

Gotta disagree with this. You can force turnovers with strip sacks and sacks are better than incompletions.

That's OK to disagree, but I personally see it that way. I love to get sacks, but sometimes sacks are because of good coverage and not the pass rusher. I would rather have a guy who pressures the QB constantly than a guy who puts up high sack numbers. Now, if they're close then obviously you go with the higher sack numbers. Even if sacks are better than incompletions, it's not like you get sacks on every down. Pressures can come every down or at least nearly every down sometimes from some of the best pass rushers. You can force turnovers that way, but I think interceptions are personally easier than fumbling in today's NFL. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by GrimCoconut

[harfordravenfan]

7 minutes ago, GrimCoconut said:

That's OK to disagree, but I personally see it that way. I love to get sacks, but sometimes sacks are because of good coverage and not the pass rusher. I would rather have a guy who pressures the QB constantly than a guy who puts up high sack numbers. Now, if they're close then obviously you go with the higher sack numbers. Even if sacks are better than incompletions, it's not like you get sacks on every down. Pressures can come every down or at least nearly every down sometimes from some of the best pass rushers. You can force turnovers that way, but I think interceptions are personally easier than fumbling in today's NFL. 

Agree completely and I think we'll do OK with getting pressure on the QB but wow have we sucked at interceptions since Reed left

[ALPHA]

18 hours ago, harfordravenfan said:

Agree completely and I think we'll do OK with getting pressure on the QB but wow have we sucked at interceptions since Reed left

Reed was just a supernatural entity unto himself. We simply bore witness.

[Willbacker]

20 hours ago, ALPHA said:

Sacks and pressures go hand in hand. Defenses average 2 sacks a game, 3 if you're the Broncos, now that isn't a lot when you consider 30-40-50 passing attempts. Pressures (and QB hits) allow you to get in the QB's face and disrupt his timing over the course of the game.

Your 1st sentence hits it right on the head. Either way you getting into the QBs head.

20 hours ago, GrimCoconut said:

That's OK to disagree, but I personally see it that way. I love to get sacks, but sometimes sacks are because of good coverage and not the pass rusher. I would rather have a guy who pressures the QB constantly than a guy who puts up high sack numbers. Now, if they're close then obviously you go with the higher sack numbers. Even if sacks are better than incompletions, it's not like you get sacks on every down. Pressures can come every down or at least nearly every down sometimes from some of the best pass rushers. You can force turnovers that way, but I think interceptions are personally easier than fumbling in today's NFL. 

Yes you can defenitly get coverage sacks and sacks are always gonna be better than incompetions even if its only a yard loss that I'm sure we agree on but pressure is only better than sacks if you get said turnover. I'm not saying pressure isn't important tho since you have a good chance of throwing off the timing and accuracy of the pass let alone knocking down the confidence of the offense. I guess it was just the way you worded it earlier that made me respond. I just didn't agree with it.

I'm starting to get more on the Bosa bandwagon mainly cuz of Jack's injury which is starting to cause me to think Ozzie might not pick him especially with the Perriman situation. I believe he may be the safest D player besides Ramsey who I really don't believe we have a snoballs chance in heck of getting. Deep down I really think the Browns are still gonna draft a QB but they're sending signals they not so I'm not sure he will fall to us if they don't. My main problem with Bosa is a lot of people here seem to think we'll stick him at OLB and I worry about his coverage abilities. Can he be used as a 5 tech or is it better to just use him as OLB on earlier downs(and mainly rush him on pass plays) and drop him on the line in obvius pass situations? I hear a lot about Buckner but he only did it for 1 yr while Bosa started as a freshman and it just seems like Buckner is boom or bust to me and I think the Alabama DLinemen could be just as good or better. Basically what I'm thinking is if for some strange reason Tunsil,Bosa and Ramsey are all off the board I would defintly like to see a tradeback.

 

[GrimCoconut]

3 hours ago, Willbacker said:

Your 1st sentence hits it right on the head. Either way you getting into the QBs head.

Yes you can defenitly get coverage sacks and sacks are always gonna be better than incompetions even if its only a yard loss that I'm sure we agree on but pressure is only better than sacks if you get said turnover. I'm not saying pressure isn't important tho since you have a good chance of throwing off the timing and accuracy of the pass let alone knocking down the confidence of the offense. I guess it was just the way you worded it earlier that made me respond. I just didn't agree with it.

I'm starting to get more on the Bosa bandwagon mainly cuz of Jack's injury which is starting to cause me to think Ozzie might not pick him especially with the Perriman situation. I believe he may be the safest D player besides Ramsey who I really don't believe we have a snoballs chance in heck of getting. Deep down I really think the Browns are still gonna draft a QB but they're sending signals they not so I'm not sure he will fall to us if they don't. My main problem with Bosa is a lot of people here seem to think we'll stick him at OLB and I worry about his coverage abilities. Can he be used as a 5 tech or is it better to just use him as OLB on earlier downs(and mainly rush him on pass plays) and drop him on the line in obvius pass situations? I hear a lot about Buckner but he only did it for 1 yr while Bosa started as a freshman and it just seems like Buckner is boom or bust to me and I think the Alabama DLinemen could be just as good or better. Basically what I'm thinking is if for some strange reason Tunsil,Bosa and Ramsey are all off the board I would defintly like to see a tradeback.

 

This is hard to say but coverage skills be damned if you're a pass rusher. I love the total package as well, don't get me wrong, but if a guy isn't immediately great in coverage it doesn't bother me if they're a pass rusher because that's why you pick them top 10. That said, I think Bosa is better than given credit in all areas of his game. I'm really not sure about him as a standing pass rusher at OLB but we'll see if we take him. 

As for pressure, it's just hard to get sacks every down. I know sacks are where you make your money but yeah I just think consistent pressure is better because it leads to sacks and ruins an offensive game plan. 

[Ravensfan23]

@Willbacker why should Bosa being in coverage as a OLB be an issue? At what point has any of our OLBs been matched up in man coverage, heck they are rarely asked to drop back in zone coverage. From what I've seen of Bosa he's more then capable of handling the short area zone and curl-flat coverage the Ravens ask of their OLBs. 

I feel Bosa's versatility is one of his best attributes. He can be moved up and down the Dline and that only added to the defense. Can he be a permanent 5? Probably not, but can you line him up at that position to win inside along with Timmy while Suggs and Doom rush outside? Yes. I think the best way to use Bosa is constantly moving him around to maximize his talents. If Bosa is the guy at #6 or #8(if rumors are true) I'd love to see Joe Schobert or James Cowser also added in the 4th because they'll bring that speed rush element to go along with Bosa

[JoeyFlex5]

On the subject of sacks vs pressure.. A defender having a consistent presence in the pocket makes qbs uneasy, There are few qbs in the league who can stare down the barrel of an effective rush and stand strong in the pocket or have the presence to step up or roll out effectively. When a qb has to roll out the chances of a completion are essentially cut in half because the field is cut in half, the chances of a turnover are greater because the qb is not delivering a mechanically strong pass and the defensive backfield moves differently, it forces qbs to throw early and throw off of their back foot, it makes them get happy feet, it makes them rush the throw when there isn't even pressure. That's where bosa will help us, he may only get 6-8 sacks a year but he will be a constant presence in the backfield, he will blow up his gaps against the run so much that the qb will take notice and keep his eye on him, the line will dedicate resources to keeping him hemmed up at the line and he likely still gets penetration because he's just so good at knifing through the T/G gap and pushing the outside of the pocket, the qb will be playing scared and the line will be on their heels constantly, obviously this allows others to flourish. We haven't had a talent of bosas caliber on our front seven since Ngata was in his prime and jernigan, suggs, and doom will all reap the benefits.

[ludy51]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

On the subject of sacks vs pressure.. A defender having a consistent presence in the pocket makes qbs uneasy, There are few qbs in the league who can stare down the barrel of an effective rush and stand strong in the pocket or have the presence to step up or roll out effectively. When a qb has to roll out the chances of a completion are essentially cut in half because the field is cut in half, the chances of a turnover are greater because the qb is not delivering a mechanically strong pass and the defensive backfield moves differently, it forces qbs to throw early and throw off of their back foot, it makes them get happy feet, it makes them rush the throw when there isn't even pressure. That's where bosa will help us, he may only get 6-8 sacks a year but he will be a constant presence in the backfield, he will blow up his gaps against the run so much that the qb will take notice and keep his eye on him, the line will dedicate resources to keeping him hemmed up at the line and he likely still gets penetration because he's just so good at knifing through the T/G gap and pushing the outside of the pocket, the qb will be playing scared and the line will be on their heels constantly, obviously this allows others to flourish. We haven't had a talent of bosas caliber on our front seven since Ngata was in his prime and jernigan, suggs, and doom will all reap the benefits.

I agree. Look at Tom Brady. Dude has extreme paranoia and ducks and dances after about 3-4 seconds in the pocket.

[JoeyFlex5]

11 hours ago, Ravensfan23 said:

@Willbacker why should Bosa being in coverage as a OLB be an issue? At what point has any of our OLBs been matched up in man coverage, heck they are rarely asked to drop back in zone coverage. From what I've seen of Bosa he's more then capable of handling the short area zone and curl-flat coverage the Ravens ask of their OLBs. 

I feel Bosa's versatility is one of his best attributes. He can be moved up and down the Dline and that only added to the defense. Can he be a permanent 5? Probably not, but can you line him up at that position to win inside along with Timmy while Suggs and Doom rush outside? Yes. I think the best way to use Bosa is constantly moving him around to maximize his talents. If Bosa is the guy at #6 or #8(if rumors are true) I'd love to see Joe Schobert or James Cowser also added in the 4th because they'll bring that speed rush element to go along with Bosa

Rumors? Elaborate please.

[usmccharles]

3 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Rumors? Elaborate please.

think he is just speculating because of all the "draft experts" that have us taking Bosa and saying we love him...

[rmw10]

8 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Rumors? Elaborate please.

Rumors are that a QB is still likely to go at 2, and if it's not Philly, they're looking to move up for Zeke. 

[JoeyFlex5]

8 minutes ago, rmw10 said:

Rumors are that a QB is still likely to go at 2, and if it's not Philly, they're looking to move up for Zeke. 

Ahh ok. I don't see them trading up to 6 For him though if I'm just being honest

[rmw10]

1 minute ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Ahh ok. I don't see them trading up to 6 For him though if I'm just being honest

They might want to beat Miami to it, as they're said to be very interested in Zeke as well. If a QB is gone at 2, a lot feel SF at 7 would be very open to moving back. 

[Jacquouille]

I'm back to prefering Trade Back + VHIII. Bosa is good but when I see tapes of Dodd or Lawson, I'm just thinking Bosa has a fairly low ceiling. And when I watch this year's Ravens tape, I feel like our pass rush wasn't horrible.

[Jacquouille]

Ok I just watched the Penn State game, feeling better now.

[ALPHA]

At this point it's hard to tell if he falls to us, I think it all depends on Myles Jack and whether the knee talk is another smokescreen.

[RavensDieHard21]

7 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

I'm back to prefering Trade Back + VHIII. Bosa is good but when I see tapes of Dodd or Lawson, I'm just thinking Bosa has a fairly low ceiling. And when I watch this year's Ravens tape, I feel like our pass rush wasn't horrible.

Omg please don't pass it wasn't horrible lol We couldn't apply pressure until we had 6 men blitzing. 4 and 5 man rushes were terrible=[

[Jacquouille]

24 minutes ago, RavensDieHard21 said:

Omg please don't pass it wasn't horrible lol We couldn't apply pressure until we had 6 men blitzing. 4 and 5 man rushes were terrible=[

Well I mean look at the Cleveland (good OL) game, that head scratching Barnidge TD. Pressure from everywhere, McCown throws the ultimate sausage. If it was VHIII in coverage, it's pick six for us. See what I'm saying? 

 

Anyway, I just watched some Bosa tape (for the third time) and it just jumped at me: Bosa is a far better Interior Rusher than an Edge Rusher. He might be a better 3-4 DE than Buckner honestly. It felt like he was getting penetration on every snap where he was lined up inside. I still think he'll set the edge well as an OLB, but he'll be a terror as a DE.

[JoeyFlex5]

4 minutes ago, Jacquouille said:

Well I mean look at the Cleveland (good OL) game, that head scratching Barnidge TD. Pressure from everywhere, McCown throws the ultimate sausage. If it was VHIII in coverage, it's pick six for us. See what I'm saying? 

 

Anyway, I just watched some Bosa tape (for the third time) and it just jumped at me: Bosa is a far better Interior Rusher than an Edge Rusher. He might be a better 3-4 DE than Buckner honestly. It felt like he was getting penetration on every snap where he was lined up inside. I still think he'll set the edge well as an OLB, but he'll be a terror as a DE.

I've always said this. He's a 3/5 tech hybrid and in nickel packages we should consider implementing a 9 wide package. Him and doom lined up at the 9 would be absolutely unstoppable, both of them play low and ridiculously powerful when engaged, getting a head of steam will knock ot's over regularly