The Joey Bosa thread

[52520Andrew]

4 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

i know lol.

he played as a DE not an OLB.....

And he did a pretty damn good job at that position so if you wanna say Bosa is that type of guy, there is your scheme fit. If you aren't sold on Bosa fitting a 3-4, why compare him to a guy who did extremely well as a 3-4 DE? I'd take a Justin Smith at 6 overall in a heartbeat.

I see in Bosa a guy who is extremely versatile and can attack an offense from just about anywhere on the line. Given how the Ravens used McPhee and combining that with Upshaw's role for us on early downs(for such a great coverage OLB, how many 3rd down snaps did Upshaw play?), you would have a 3 down player who would be making a difference wherever needed. I also view interior pass rush as being more important and more rare than an edge rush. Bosa 1 on 1 with most NFL guards just isn't fair. Bosa is a guy who would step in day 1 and fix our pass rush and would go a long way towards fixing this defense, even if he doesn't fit the profile of a prototypical 3-4 OLB.

[Jacquouille]

Basically we're comparing the roles, not the production (although McPhee had a damn fine production). Bosa can set the edge as well as Upshaw against the run and get after the QB as well, and would thrive as a DE in 3rd downs because of his ability to take on O-Linemen with his hands and strength. 

[ALPHA]

Now that the Bosa buzz is picking back up I'm wondering if the Browns are going to take a QB, they need one but who knows how moneyball plays out?

[BmoreBird22]

5 hours ago, Tru11 said:

i know lol.

he played as a DE not an OLB.....

yeah cause lamar houston , willie young and eddie goldman did nothing noteworthy right.....

also who are you to decide what i am discussing?

you replied to me which means you joined my discussion.

l was talking about impact , snaps , being a starter and his production , so i was not talking only about sacks.

also my point simply was and remains that yes what mcphee has done as a 5th round pick so far is impressive but if he where the 6th overall pick i would be  dissapointed cause i expect more.

you are free to believe that what mcphee has done so far in his career or only last season is impressive and is enough to make him worth a 6th overal pick but i dont and wont.

Again for the 6th overall pick i expect more then what mcphee has brought so far....

They are not nearly as consistent or the force that McPhee is. Again, McPhee accounted for over a quarter of their total pressures, so somewhere along there, the others were not stepping up. And furthermore, since you probably didn't consider this, McPhee is making chances for them. His nearly 5 QB disruptions a game are going to draw a lot of attention to him and flush quarterbacks into his teammates. It should be a bit alarming when a teammate has 8 sacks but like 20 hurries/hits.

You expect more in that stat sheet as far as sacks go. You said that he couldn't be the 10th best edge rusher because he wasn't even top 50 in sacks.

Also, talking about his production on a per snap basis kills your argument because as a pass rusher, he was literally the most productive for a 3-4 OLB.

It's actually been this way his entire career. He's thrived as a pass rusher and that sack stat is not everything. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[JoeyFlex5]

9 hours ago, Tru11 said:

so you would take mcphee over mack and miller?

you say you dont like boxscore scouting but then again all you seem to do is focus on this stat.

pretty much contradicting.

 

why would they seem him as a miler or mack type?

he seems closer to jared allen or justin smith to me.

it would be a waste to use bosa as a OLB in our scheme since we demand a lot more from our players then just simply set the edge or rush the passer.

a 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE seems more fitting for him TBH.

ow no doubt he would be able to set the edge as a OLB but im wondering what he is going to be like when its not run and he has to drop in cov or cover a TE, RB when its play action orso  lol.

i dont think people understand that upshaw did more then simply set the edge.

as the strong side lber  you might have to do other things when its not a run and im not sure Bosa has what it takes to play in coverage.

i do see him as a great 5tech and 3tech hybrid and if we draft him its where i want him to play full time.

I was one of upshaws biggest fans I know he had a lot more value than most seem to realize. He was a stud at hemming up TEs at the line and he dropped into shallow zones very well, I don't think bosa can do that but I think in those situations he would likely just rush because it's what he does best and where he brings the most value. If our safety tandem is performing well then it becomes less of a concern. 

 

And do I think bosa can hem up TEs at the line? With some work I think he could, he can be very nimble on his feet when he needs to be and has stellar hand usage, his feet become an issue when he's pass rushing becaus he's so tall and he leans very well for great leverage and occasionally it bites him, but with coaching in sure he can handle most of Upshaw duties, you'll just be sacrificing a bit of zone dropping for some much better edge rushing, which im ok with

[Tru11]

7 hours ago, 52520Andrew said:

And he did a pretty damn good job at that position so if you wanna say Bosa is that type of guy, there is your scheme fit. If you aren't sold on Bosa fitting a 3-4, why compare him to a guy who did extremely well as a 3-4 DE? I'd take a Justin Smith at 6 overall in a heartbeat.

I see in Bosa a guy who is extremely versatile and can attack an offense from just about anywhere on the line. Given how the Ravens used McPhee and combining that with Upshaw's role for us on early downs(for such a great coverage OLB, how many 3rd down snaps did Upshaw play?), you would have a 3 down player who would be making a difference wherever needed. I also view interior pass rush as being more important and more rare than an edge rush. Bosa 1 on 1 with most NFL guards just isn't fair. Bosa is a guy who would step in day 1 and fix our pass rush and would go a long way towards fixing this defense, even if he doesn't fit the profile of a prototypical 3-4 OLB.

he would have to bulk up to become an inside rusher in the NFL though which is why i rather seem him as a DE in the justin smith role in our defense.

[Tru11]

5 hours ago, BmoreBird22 said:

They are not nearly as consistent or the force that McPhee is. Again, McPhee accounted for over a quarter of their total pressures, so somewhere along there, the others were not stepping up. And furthermore, since you probably didn't consider this, McPhee is making chances for them. His nearly 5 QB disruptions a game are going to draw a lot of attention to him and flush quarterbacks into his teammates. It should be a bit alarming when a teammate has 8 sacks but like 20 hurries/hits.

You expect more in that stat sheet as far as sacks go. You said that he couldn't be the 10th best edge rusher because he wasn't even top 50 in sacks.

Also, talking about his production on a per snap basis kills your argument because as a pass rusher, he was literally the most productive for a 3-4 OLB.

It's actually been this way his entire career. He's thrived as a pass rusher and that sack stat is not everything. 

i never said the sack stat is everything and i never said that his team mates where as consistent as him.

stop making things up.

no matter how you want to spin it though , i doubt anyone will we happy to draft a pass rusher who can only do that 6th overall who avg less then 6 sacks per season.

as a 2nd round or later pick ill be happy.

for 6th overall i expect more though.

[ALPHA]

48 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

i never said the sack stat is everything and i never said that his team mates where as consistent as him.

stop making things up.

no matter how you want to spin it though , i doubt anyone will we happy to draft a pass rusher who can only do that 6th overall who avg less then 6 sacks per season.

as a 2nd round or later pick ill be happy.

for 6th overall i expect more though.

Bosa gets compared to a lot of people including McPhee, but Bosa is a better prospect in every way, faster, stronger, more athletic, moves better, more durable, has better hand usage etc. He's the best pass rusher in the class, a McPhee clone might not be worth the 6th overall but 70 pressures in 12 games while being double teamed is.

Edited April 7, 2016 by ALPHA

[Maryland]

I like basically everything Mr.Flex has to say about Bosa. 

I would love to double-dip on the edge and get a young, fast DPR to pair with him while Bosa rushes from DE on passing downs. Hoping Ochi is there for one of our late 4th round picks. 

[Tru11]

23 minutes ago, ALPHA said:

Bosa gets compared to a lot of people including McPhee, but Bosa is a better prospect in every way, faster, stronger, more athletic, moves better, more durable, has better hand usage etc. He's the best pass rusher in the class, a McPhee clone might not be worth the 6th overall but 70 pressures in 12 games while being double teamed is.

he sure is better yes and if we draft him i sure expect him to bring more then what mcphee has brought so far.

all i have been saying so far.

Also i doubt he got double teamed on every single snap so dont exaggerate.
Not even Watt or miller or mack face a double team 100% of the time....

BTW pressures and QB hits are nice and all but by no means do they suggest all of them resulted in a positive play for the defense while a sack 100% of the time is a guaranteed positive result for the defense.

The results of a pressure on a QB hit could be anything from a completed pass for a TD all the way to an errand pass going the other way.

A sack is a loss of down with most of the time a loss of yards for the offense every time.

you guys are free to value pressure and QB hits the same as a sack but thats not how i see it.

 

[ALPHA]

7 minutes ago, Tru11 said:

he sure is better yes and if we draft him i sure expect him to bring more then what mcphee has brought so far.

all i have been saying so far.

Also i doubt he got double teamed on every single snap so dont exaggerate.
Not even Watt or miller or mack face a double team 100% of the time....

BTW pressures and QB hits are nice and all but by no means do they suggest all of them resulted in a positive play for the defense while a sack 100% of the time is a guaranteed positive result for the defense.

The results of a pressure on a QB hit could be anything from a completed pass for a TD all the way to an errand pass going the other way.

A sack is a loss of down with most of the time a loss of yards for the offense every time.

you guys are free to value pressure and QB hits the same as a sack but thats not how i see it.

 

Elite pass rushers rarely average more than one sack per game whereas a QB will average 35 pass attempts, individual sacks don't decide many games take Jared Allen for example, when he posted 22 sacks in 2011 the Vikings were still one of the worst pass defenses in the league. JJ Watt has two 20 sack seasons and he hasn't turned the Texans into a defensive powerhouse either. Now I'm not saying 20 sacks doesn't matter I'm saying pressures and sacks go hand in hand because while you can't always hit the QB you can still get in his face, QB's who are pressured make mistakes and are more likely to throw interceptions. 

Pass rushers are still reliant on other pass rushers to some degree, the more you have on the field the more they a freed up and the more disruptive your defense becomes. If like Bosa they are also dominant three down defenders against the run and have a motor to play 4 quarters thats even better. 

Also I clearly didn't say he got double teamed on every play, just that he gets double teamed. At the end of the day if you are in the backfield 6 times a game you are doing something right.

[Tru11]

1 minute ago, ALPHA said:

Elite pass rushers rarely average more than one sack per game whereas a QB will average 35 pass attempts, individual sacks don't decide many games take Jared Allen for example, when he posted 22 sacks in 2011 the Vikings were still one of the worst pass defenses in the league. JJ Watt has two 20 sack seasons and he hasn't turned the Texans into a defensive powerhouse either. Now I'm not saying 20 sacks doesn't matter I'm saying pressures and sacks go hand in hand because while you can't always hit the QB you can still get in his face, QB's who are pressured make mistakes and are more likely to throw interceptions. 

Pass rushers are still reliant on other pass rushers to some degree, the more you have on the field the more they a freed up and the more disruptive your defense becomes. If like Bosa they are also dominant three down defenders against the run and have a motor to play 4 quarters thats even better. 

Also I clearly didn't say he got double teamed on every play, just that he gets double teamed. At the end of the day if you are in the backfield 6 times a game you are doing something right.

yeah you are doing something right but overall are you doing enough.

if we draft  bosa 6th overall and he is a starter playing around 50 snaps on defense per game and all he manages to do is being in the back field 6 times , i would be highly disappointed.

now if he manages to get tackles for a loss, sacks , force fumbles, recover fumbles , swat passes , intercept passes and such with being 6 times in the backfield , i will be happy.

 

[BmoreBird22]

8 hours ago, Tru11 said:

i never said the sack stat is everything and i never said that his team mates where as consistent as him.

stop making things up.

no matter how you want to spin it though , i doubt anyone will we happy to draft a pass rusher who can only do that 6th overall who avg less then 6 sacks per season.

as a 2nd round or later pick ill be happy.

for 6th overall i expect more though.

"he was the 10th best edge rusher last season with the bears?

he barely made the top 50 in the league in terms of sacks lol.

bosa must have way better production and a much bigger impact then mcphee did if we decide to use the 6th overall pick on him TBH."

Yeah, no one is going to think you're only worried about stats when you keep asking for more production with your only clarifying statement being sacks, but yeah, I'm just making things up.

And again, no one is going to think you're only concerned with sacks as the stat when you say that the 6th overall pick should average more than 6 per season. You have only mentioned sacks as your qualifying stat for what production is, nothing else.

You have never said what more is in terms of production, but I'm gonna bet it involves more sacks.

By the way, I never said that you were implying that his teammates were as consistent as him, just cautioning you against using their stats as an argument because truthfully, McPhee probably created most of those opportunities for them, which is something pretty damn useful that won't show up in his column, but has a big impact on the team as a whole and boosts his production.

In any case, this is a pointless argument to have because McPhee wasn't really healthy at all last year, dealing with nagging injuries that eventually shut him down, and Bosa will be a different animal from McPhee all together.

Edited April 7, 2016 by BmoreBird22

[KentuckyProud]

Idk if the whole comparing McPhee to Bosa thing works at all. Just because Bosa would be 6th overall and McPhee was 5th rounder doesn't mean his production has to be three times better. That would be like if the Steelers picked Coleman in the 1st and expected him to be twice as good as Antonio Brown just because he's picked higher. Some projects turn out wel but a lot go in and out of organizations without making much progress

[flynismo]

Something to consider is that finding a replacement for Romo is very high on Dallas' priority list. Don't be surprised if two QBs go before we pick...which is obviously a dream come true scenario for us. 

[Jacquouille]

1 hour ago, KentuckyProud said:

Idk if the whole comparing McPhee to Bosa thing works at all. Just because Bosa would be 6th overall and McPhee was 5th rounder doesn't mean his production has to be three times better. That would be like if the Steelers picked Coleman in the 1st and expected him to be twice as good as Antonio Brown just because he's picked higher. Some projects turn out wel but a lot go in and out of organizations without making much progress

We're saying this because Bosa has showed stuff that led us to think he's already better than McPhee in certain areas, such as the hand usage at which he's an expert. The main problem with Bosa being his position, we believe the best would be to make him travel on the D-Line like McPhee did. This would let him use his capacities to the fullest and make him a productive pass rusher.

[TurkishRaven]

1 hour ago, flynismo said:

Something to consider is that finding a replacement for Romo is very high on Dallas' priority list. Don't be surprised if two QBs go before we pick...which is obviously a dream come true scenario for us. 

Or a qb needy team moving up to 1st. 

How about 3 qbs before we pick? 

1st 49ers Goff

2nd Browns Wentz

4th Dallas Lynch

 

Tunsil or Ramsey comes to us. Please don't wake me up ...

[52520Andrew]

11 hours ago, Tru11 said:

he would have to bulk up to become an inside rusher in the NFL though which is why i rather seem him as a DE in the justin smith role in our defense.

I don't think he would have to bulk up too much unless you want him as a traditional 3-4 DE on early downs. That would be misusing Bosa to me. The Giants have shifted DEs inside in nickel for quite a while and you don't need to be huge to be effective at doing that. I think it would be far easier to teach him how to jam TEs as opposed to bulking him up and hoping he can handle 2 gaps in the run game.

[Willbacker]

3 hours ago, flynismo said:

Something to consider is that finding a replacement for Romo is very high on Dallas' priority list. Don't be surprised if two QBs go before we pick...which is obviously a dream come true scenario for us. 

Especially if the Browns take Goff. This is the only team I can see that would take Bosa before us. Unless its actually the Browns lol.

[ALPHA]

12 hours ago, Tru11 said:

yeah you are doing something right but overall are you doing enough.

if we draft  bosa 6th overall and he is a starter playing around 50 snaps on defense per game and all he manages to do is being in the back field 6 times , i would be highly disappointed.

now if he manages to get tackles for a loss, sacks , force fumbles, recover fumbles , swat passes , intercept passes and such with being 6 times in the backfield , i will be happy.

 

Thats just the gamble you take with any pick, is he going to be All-Pro or a bust? it is entirely possible that there is a better three down edge rusher in the draft, and if there is he is not immediately obvious.

[Jacquouille]

Do you guys believe that Bosa has reached his ceiling? I didn't take it seriously at first bu medias seem quite serious about it, you think there's any reason to care about this?

[JoeyFlex5]

12 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

Do you guys believe that Bosa has reached his ceiling? I didn't take it seriously at first bu medias seem quite serious about it, you think there's any reason to care about this?

I think that's just media taking a good players strength and flipping it to make it seem like a bad thing. Media blows everything way out of proportion and fails to properly analyze anything. They say bosa has reached his ceiling because he has a grown man body and is very refined. 

 

That is not a bad thing, nor does it mean he's reached his ceiling. He still isn't in an NFL weight room and is still under college coaching. Bosa is a big guy, and a very powerful one, there are guys that need to trim down 10 lbs or more to play at max explosiveness, With Bosa i could see a 5 lb cut making a world of difference, If he is going to be an olb that could make him less prone to falling when he leans, it could make it much easier for him to pick up coverage, it could help his lateral speed a great deal. Also, he engages and disengages very well, but there is still room for improvement, he is a smart kid and an NFL coach and guys like suggs teaching him when to use moves could do a a lot for him as well, rather than him just engaging the blocker and shoving him backwards he can learn when he has his best advantage for what particular pass rush move. Bosa has a high floor but it doesn't mean he has a low ceiling. 

 

That's not even touching on the possibility of him bulking up and playing full time at a 3/5tech hybrid which I think he would be very dangerous at. Clarence Brooks is a mad scientist with physically talented high motor guys.

[Jacquouille]

'kay, thanks for the answer, that's what I wanted to hear, that there's still room for improvement.

[RaineV1]

Gotta say, the nickle formation with Suggs, Jernigan, Bosa, and Doom as the linemen could provide a hell of a passrush without the need to blitz anyone.

[JoeyFlex5]

14 minutes ago, RaineV1 said:

Gotta say, the nickle formation with Suggs, Jernigan, Bosa, and Doom as the linemen could provide a hell of a passrush without the need to blitz anyone.

Love it. I love the 5 man rush even more with suggs jernigan Williams Bosa and doom from the 34. Single matchups across the board with a pocket pushing NT.

[Jacquouille]

18 minutes ago, JoeyFlex5 said:

Love it. I love the 5 man rush even more with suggs jernigan Williams Bosa and doom from the 34. Single matchups across the board with a pocket pushing NT.

Pass rushing wise, I think Carl Davis can turn out to be better than Williams. Kid faded during the season but he's got talent

[trevorsteadman]

4 hours ago, Jacquouille said:

Pass rushing wise, I think Carl Davis can turn out to be better than Williams. Kid faded during the season but he's got talent

I still see Brandon as our nose tackle though. He is one of the best if not the best NT as of last year. Highest rated in the run and decent in the pass. But Davis could come in on rushing downs or steal snaps from Jernigan. He is the one that needs to improve. He has done better but I think both have a lot to show.

[Italian Raven]

I watched (for the second/third time) a few tapes today. Geez I didn't remember the guys was losing his balance that often... did they even check if he has labyrinthitis or something? coz it looks ridiculous.
 

So many times in just 5 games.. and I'm not even posting of all of them.

I keep advocating for him as a mere 4-3 DE or (better) as 3-4 DE, but not as an edge rusher in a pure 3-4. I saw him winning on the outside only a couple of times on 11 games. He'd better win immediately, with a counter or swim on B gap because he doesn't have the speed nor the bending to win outside (I have many other gifs supporting my point of view but I won't bother any longer). Also, once the Olineman can get the hands on his pads there's not much Bosa can do. If Bosa, Buck and VHIII are all on board at #6 I hope we go 1Buck 2VHIII 3Bosa. The only reason he's (barely) a top 10 pick is because this class is overall pretty week compared to last and next years' and because edge rushers are the highest valued position after the QB's.
 

[Jacquouille]

Against the run he'll be excellent as an OLB, and he can still be dangerous rushing from the edge. His swat move is extremely violent and rushing from a stand up position allows more balance.

Plus, when a OL gets his hands on any rusher's pads it's almost over for any player, it's not just Bosa. 

[Italian Raven]

1 hour ago, Jacquouille said:

Against the run he'll be excellent as an OLB, and he can still be dangerous rushing from the edge. His swat move is extremely violent and rushing from a stand up position allows more balance.

Plus, when a OL gets his hands on any rusher's pads it's almost over for any player, it's not just Bosa. 

Recently I didn't have much time to dig into other tapes but the MSU, Cle, Ore, Penn St, but  I couldn't find many situations of him winning around the edge.
If you do, please post them because I must have missed on them. His outside rip move is just bad because he lacks the explosiveness, balance and bending to perform it effectively.
When he gets the snap count right and swim his way between the G and the T he can be very dangerous.. but what he's missing are the essential skills to be a great 3-4 OLB. I'd rather try to trade back and get any guy like Floyd, Dodd in the 15-20 range who can give me what we're missing (explosiveness, bending) or wait until the second round and get Shilique or Fackrell; or even Schobert/Striker on day 3. 
Bosa would add some talent to the Dline but I find him more valuable inside, where his technique and moves have proven to be more effective.

Against the run he missed more tackles than any other pass-rusher I've seen yet.. even when he's able to control his gap and the RB runs right into his arms he's not as effective as you people make him sound like. He even overruns many more plays you would desire for a top 10 pick.
Calhoun, on the other hand, is not as flashy but he does his job. You'll never see him out of position. He possesses a higher football IQ, reads the screens with anticipation and takes good angles to cut those lanes off. 

Again, if anyone can show me that he's capable of winning around the corner on a constant base, please show me. I'm always willing to change my idea on things if what comes to light is convincing enough. I'm honestly trying to be as much unbiased as possible, even after his classless twitter rants and the unsalted interviews.