Was Harbs winning a SB lucky?

[ravensdan]

It depends on what you mean by "luck." Every team that wins a Super Bowl has some things go their way. Some times its just not having injuries, which can be a form of "luck." In the Ravens SB run, it was the end of the Denver game that was their "lucky break." Last year, the Patriots, as good as they have been, won their first SB in ten years. And they got a pretty "lucky break" to get it done. However, you have to do a lot of things right to have those moments matter. As an outsider and Steeler fan, I have to say that the thing I don't get in here is the bashing of Harbaugh and/or Flacco. No person, player or coach gets it right every time. There are a bunch of other good coaches and great players…all professionals….who are chasing the same thing your guys are chasing. Its hard to get it, thats why it means so much. You don't have the run of success the Ravens have had without a pretty darn good coach and an above average QB. The Ravens have both. The line between wins and losses in the NFL can be razor thin. I fully expect the Ravens to remain competitive for the rest of the season and be right back to threatening for the division next year. Down years like this suck. I know, the Steelers have had them. But your team is not the Browns or the Lions. This won't last. One of the things that has kept the Steelers competitive through the years is coaching stability and job security. I wouldn't underestimate the value of those things. You all will be much better off if the organization stands behind your coach and rides this out.

Right on in everything you say. Sad the steelers fan sees things more clearly than our own.

[ravensdan]

If only this were possible.We'd be good to go!

I think Rex Ryan is quite overrated at the moment. He's overthinking things and hurting the Bills. Very happy we have Harbaugh leading the team instead of him.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Elaborate, I gave him his credit where it was due but there is no denying the external factors that were the driving force behind winning that SB.

 

1. Ray Lewis Magic - There's no other way to put it, something once in a lifetime went on that postseason from his last dance at M&T, the mile high miracle, the David vs Goliath game in NE, the goal line stand in the SB.. it was like watching a movie.

 

2. Flacco Legendary Performance - 11 TD's 0 INT's, enough said, even with all the Ray Lewis "last ride" going on we don't beat Denver without Flacco playig out of his mind.

 

3. Great Coaching Staff - So many coaches from that squad have been promoted to higher positions with other teams, Teryl Austin did amazing work with the db's and Caldwell provided exactly the type of well balanced attack the offense and Joe need to thrive that we didn't see again until Kubiak.

 

 

I'll stick with my analogy in my OP, Harbaugh was the glue, he was the team manager, Ray and Ed were the leaders, they commanded the locker room. I don't believe he was a driving force behind that SB.

 

 

I AGREE with this assessment and always have. There was just no reason to bring it up until the 2013 season when he cleaned house of the aggressive players. The OP and this post is SPOT ON in my opinion.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Many of you are running with the intention of this thread in the wrong direction, my point is that Harbs isn't a great football mind but he is a very good team manager and I don't mean that as a back handed compliment, it's a valuable skill set as a HC. I just personally feel like he was the glue keeping everything together (which is very important) but not an active orchestrator behind that SB like a Bill Belichick or Sean Payton.

 

I also said I'm not opposed to Harbs staying, I just see a chance for both sides to get a fresh start because the train is off the tracks.

 

I think a better fit wold be someone like Josh McDaniels from NE, say what you wnat about his first gig in Denver but the guy has a tremendous mind for the game and i think he's grown as a coach a lot since then. That's the type of guy who will get hands on with the scheme, that's the type of guy who can help this team evolve with the times. I like Harbs, don't mind him staying at all, just see that the grass might be greener on the other side for both parties if he were to get offered USC.

 

 

I can agree with this to a degree -- just not certain about McDaniels. But we definitely need a real offensive minded coach. That has ailed us for years. We see what we can do with a good offensive mind like Kubiak. I think that's Harb's downfall. He's not an offensive background coach so it is more difficult for him to fix those issues. He can get mad at the OC, lean on him, even fire them, but I doubt he's calling plays from the sideline. He's at their playcalling mercy largely.

[Dfence4champs2052]

McDaniels was also 33 years old and was the youngest HC in NFL history at the time, he was thrust into a position of responsibility/power that he wasn't equipped for at that age and his immaturity showed, he was coaching some players older than him. 

 

I think he's evolved a lot as a coach/person since then and working closely with Belichick more closely as an OC has really groomed him for a HC job now. He will no doubt be a HC after this season. Look at what he's doing up there in NE, that's not all Belichick, McDaniels is on the cutting edge of how the game is evolving and is playing a different game than we are, regardless of personnel.

 

I don't want to turn this into Harbs vs McDaniels, John is still our coach and I stand by him. But if he get's offered USC I'm not going to be crying for him to stay because there is certainly A LOT of untapped potential with someone like a Josh McDaniels.

 

They may try to keep him as a successor to Belicheat too though.

[Dfence4champs2052]

His aggressive fourth down decisions are one of his strongest attributes. You have to play to win. Not to not lose.

 

The choice to go often isn't the issue....it's the play that is called/executed that usually sucks.

[nyc9192]

I think Rex Ryan is quite overrated at the moment. He's overthinking things and hurting the Bills. Very happy we have Harbaugh leading the team instead of him.

Oh no doubt.We were talking about him strictly as a DC

[RavensRegime]

Yes! There's nothing wrong with being lucky! I rather be lucky than unlucky!

[jazz1988]

I AGREE with this assessment and always have. There was just no reason to bring it up until the 2013 season when he cleaned house of the aggressive players. The OP and this post is SPOT ON in my opinion.

 

Who are these aggressive players that he released?

[JEEPercreepermd]

billick was a players coach and that backfired....he had an undisciplined team.

HC: harbs

OC:billick

DC: Rex Ryan

would be success!!!

No thank you. Do you even remember watching Brian Billick's offense?

[Dfence4champs2052]

Who are these aggressive players that he released?

 

Go find a player's guide.

[jazz1988]

Go find a player's guide.

 

I was really just asking a question because I had no idea who you was talking about but ok.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Lucky might be too strong of a word but I believe it was. More so just a benefactor of a strong roster (especially on offense, Torrey, Boldin, prime Rice, healthy Pitta), legendary leadership from Ray, and a strong well-rounded coaching staff (many of which are coaching at a higher position with other teams currently)

That's not to say he isn't a competent head coach because he is, that's also not to say that just anybody could've done what he's done during his time in Baltimore. Just that his role in previous years' success has been overblown and he acted more like the glue sealing the team together rather than an active force driving the team forward.

I've been an outspoken supporter of Harbs over the years but it feels like as time has gone on and the roster/coaching staff has become thinner that more of his shortcomings have been exposed. I don't think he's a great football mind, I think he's a great team manager.

Harbs isn't going to get fired, but this USC opening maybe a great median for the two sides to part ways without all the drama and bad blood involved with firing a winning HC. I think it may just make it easier on everyone for John to take the job if he get's offered, I've always thought his coaching style was a better fit for college similar to Nick Saban. When I watched Harbs in the rookie camp series he just fit the bill as a potential college coach, I think working with younger players in a more controlled environment is exactly the situation he needs. I'm not opposed to Harbs staying, I just see a great opportunity to part ways without things getting ugly.

Harbs isn't going anywhere and firing him would be a huge mistake. He's had this team contending through consistent roster overhauls and constant coaching changes.

There's been 2 constants since 2008 - Flacco and Harbaugh.

And no coach could have this team contending with all the injuries. This is a personnel crisis, not a coaching issue. Some unrest and questioning decisions, personnel and coaching is to be expected in a bad year.

But I've seen people wanting Harbs fired, Ozzie fired, Flacco cut, etc...

Signs of a spoiled fan base. Sure there's an expectation with this team, but our current expectations are unattainable. What we've done since '08 is near impossible in a league that's designed to encourage parity... Constantly picking at the back end of each round, losing young talent due to lack of cap, constant coaching purges, etc... You're going to have a down year.

Don't overthink it, we can't outsmart ourselves. The main ingredients to our success have been an owner who hires the right people and stays out of their way, a GM who is frugal and excellent at player evaluation and finding value, a HC who is an excellent manager of personalities and understands his own limitations so gets the right people in place to make up for them, and a QB that understands how to win and has the ability when necessary to put the team on his back and win big games.

You don't start taking those pieces out because of one bad year... Especially when there's an obvious reason for the poor performance. If you laid out who were the top 10 most crucial players for this years success (not necessarily 10 best players, but 10 that needed to play well) I'd guess that half or more on most peoples lists are out for the year or have missed games this season.

A lesser coach and organization would be getting blown out of these games. This team, with all it's glaring holes and deficiencies is still finding a way to compete for wins - to the point that most of the losses are being viewed as games that we should have won but found a way to blow... As opposed to the reality which is we had no business even being competitive in most yet somehow found a way to be in a position to win - which is bc of how this coach and GM have created a culture of competing.

When you've got 16 or so players out of 53 injured so you're having to pull guys off the street (when it's already near impossible to find 53 that are NFL calibre players) and there aren't any pass catchers outside a 36 yr old with a broken back, no pass rushers, and a sieve of a secondary I find it very difficult to blame the coach. Especially when said coach is among the winningest coaches IN HISTORY over the same span in career and is THE winningest playoff coach in history over this span of career.

And he inherited a 4-12 roster and his 1st year got a rookie QB to the AFC Championship. In 2012 he took and injury riddled roster to a Super Bowl win shortly after expertly navigating a near team mutiny. Most coaches would've crumbled or lost the locker room and thus the season - Harbs found a way to turn tragedy into triumph and used that strained locker room to pull them closer together by uniting them even if it was against him. That's coaching at it's finest.

He's the right man for the job.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Go find a player's guide.

Wait, Harbs took over as GM in 2013? News to me.

And it was such a failure that we darn near blew out the SB champs in 2014 if not for a decimated secondary.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Harbaugh navigated the near team mutiny expertly and fired Cam at the perfect time.

Imo the 2 most important factors in us winning the SB that year. Immediately after those two incidents the team took off and never looked back.

To me that makes him arguably the most intrical piece to winning it. Anything else can almost definitely be tied back to one of those two events.

--

And I don't want a HC that's a coordinator. I want a HC that manages everything and can focus on just that. Without it you won't have success and by having coordinator duties as well your managing ability suffers.

McDaniels is a coordinator. Kubiak same thing, much better OC than HC. Kubiak is not what has Denver undefeated it's all the defense and he doesn't touch that. His offense is horrible and it's bc he can't give it his 100% focus.

Harbs is the man for the job and I trust him to continue to find the right assistants to keep this team competitive on a near annual basis. There will be down years like this - it just comes with the territory. When Brady retires Belichick will have them too, just watch.

Why would you want a fresh start from a guy who's definitely a top 5 coach in this league, probably top 3 to bring in a guy who's never proven anything outside of riding Belichicks coat tails?

I hope this is just emotional overreaction to losing... Because I think there's 29-30 fan bases out there who'd kill to have the Ozzie Harbs combo over what they currently have and 31 who would take Harbs in a heart beat if they lost their current coach for whatever reason.

Edited October 22, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[RedFire]

No thank you. Do you even remember watching Brian Billick's offense?

 

 

yup, it's was called the 1998 vikings, lol! Do you remember them?  

 

 

 

 

2006 he gave the boot to jim fassel and called solid plays for the team....McNair just couldn't throw the ball more than 20yards down the field. 

 

 

Billick downfall was his love for kyle boller, being to easy on players, and cupcake camps. He can do his thing at OC where he can be buddy-buddy with players. I feel a head coach needs to be harder-nosed like harbaugh. 

[RedFire]

Harbaugh navigated the near team mutiny expertly and fired Cam at the perfect time.

Imo the 2 most important factors in us winning the SB that year. Immediately after those two incidents the team took off and never looked back.

To me that makes him arguably the most intrical piece to winning it. Anything else can almost definitely be tied back to one of those two events.

--

And I don't want a HC that's a coordinator. I want a HC that manages everything and can focus on just that. Without it you won't have success and by having coordinator duties as well your managing ability suffers.

McDaniels is a coordinator. Kubiak same thing, much better OC than HC. Kubiak is not what has Denver undefeated it's all the defense and he doesn't touch that. His offense is horrible and it's bc he can't give it his 100% focus.

Harbs is the man for the job and I trust him to continue to find the right assistants to keep this team competitive on a near annual basis. There will be down years like this - it just comes with the territory. When Brady retires Belichick will have them too, just watch.

Why would you want a fresh start from a guy who's definitely a top 5 coach in this league, probably top 3 to bring in a guy who's never proven anything outside of riding Belichicks coat tails?

I hope this is just emotional overreaction to losing... Because I think there's 29-30 fan bases out there who'd kill to have the Ozzie Harbs combo over what they currently have and 31 who would take Harbs in a heart beat if they lost their current coach for whatever reason.

 

belichick will hang it up when Brady does.....and maybe come back years later if at all.

 

it's like Urban Meyer & Tebow.

It's like John Madden & Favre

Sean Payton & Drew Brees

Howard Cosell & Ali

 

The player moves on and so does the coach/announcer-commentator. 

[January J]

I was really just asking a question because I had no idea who you was talking about but ok.

it's pretty obvious is it not? I think the pick of the litter would be boldin... Edited October 22, 2015 by January J

[billick]

If you don't care what the record is, why does it matter who the Coach is.

 

Of course he will be fired, duhhhh.

 

It is just a matter of when.  The team has been collapsing since he assumed a role in the draft, like it or not.

 

It is not 3 years ago, it is 1-6 time.

[ravensdan]

I just want to make one more pint concerning Harbaugh. This is a big one. He is the only coach to be able to consistently defeat the best coach in the league in Bill. No other coach has come close to matching him consistently. That's not something that should be overlooked.

[Inqui]

I just want to make one more pint concerning Harbaugh. This is a big one. He is the only coach to be able to consistently defeat the best coach in the league in Bill. No other coach has come close to matching him consistently. That's not something that should be overlooked.

One Lee Evans reception away from being 3-1 against Belicheat in the postseason.

 

Or one Matt Elam tackle if we're looking at last year, but that's admittedly a pretty big margin.

[redrum52]

It depends on what you mean by "luck." Every team that wins a Super Bowl has some things go their way. Some times its just not having injuries, which can be a form of "luck." In the Ravens SB run, it was the end of the Denver game that was their "lucky break." Last year, the Patriots, as good as they have been, won their first SB in ten years. And they got a pretty "lucky break" to get it done. However, you have to do a lot of things right to have those moments matter. As an outsider and Steeler fan, I have to say that the thing I don't get in here is the bashing of Harbaugh and/or Flacco. No person, player or coach gets it right every time. There are a bunch of other good coaches and great players…all professionals….who are chasing the same thing your guys are chasing. Its hard to get it, thats why it means so much. You don't have the run of success the Ravens have had without a pretty darn good coach and an above average QB. The Ravens have both. The line between wins and losses in the NFL can be razor thin. I fully expect the Ravens to remain competitive for the rest of the season and be right back to threatening for the division next year. Down years like this suck. I know, the Steelers have had them. But your team is not the Browns or the Lions. This won't last. One of the things that has kept the Steelers competitive through the years is coaching stability and job security. I wouldn't underestimate the value of those things. You all will be much better off if the organization stands behind your coach and rides this out.

What the... I agree?

This isn't suppose to happen.

[baroquenspirit]

What the... I agree?

This isn't suppose to happen.

Actually, three Ravens fans agreed with this post. New Record! I love the Steelers vs Ravens rivalry and so do most NFL fans and commentators. Its better for football when we are both tough, angry and winning! 

[Kid87]

Nope

[atomicfront]

Harb is the last person I would point finger at cuz he took over the team with losing record and put us in position of contending for SB 6yrs....

Injuries killed us this year and our new acquired coaches aren't every good so it just piled on.....

Unless u cheat but most stable franchise will go through bumps and falls....

 

They did replace Boller with Flacco.  I am thinking Billick would have won a few more games with Flacco than Boller. In fact when he had a healthy McNair the year before he was fired the team was 13-3.  The Ravens have never had that good a record under Harbaugh. 

[BSHU_Miami]

They did replace Boller with Flacco. I am thinking Billick would have won a few more games with Flacco than Boller. In fact when he had a healthy McNair the year before he was fired the team was 13-3. The Ravens have never had that good a record under Harbaugh.

so you pick the one year we had the number 1 defense in the NFL and a former NFL MVP QB to make your argument. We've only done that once in our franchise history.

[jazz1988]

it's pretty obvious is it not? I think the pick of the litter would be boldin...

I feel like Boldin has already been replaced by Steve Smith of course Boldin is  more taller and a better red zone threat but no way you can convince me he's not a aggressive player and etc. Boldin bought toughness to The Ravens offense and so does Steve Smith.  

 

Since Dfence4champs2052 told me go find a players guide(not trying to be sarcastic or smart) I guess the other aggressive player  Harbaugh supposely released was Bernard Pollard but James Ihedigbo replaced him in 2013 whom was a better cover safety and cheaper. The Ravens have been able to replace Pollard not once but twice with Ihedigbo and Hill.

 

 

Boldin was making 6 million before he was traded and Steve Smith is making 4 million right now. I don't remember entirely how much Pollard was making before he was cut  I think it was 2 or 3 million while guys like Ihedigbo and Hill  were making less and are better safeties. I really don't understand why Ravens fans keep bringing up Boldin or even Pollard when we have replaced them with cheaper/better talent.

[ellicottraven]

I feel like Boldin has already been replaced by Steve Smith of course Boldin is  more taller and a better red zone threat but no way you can convince me he's not a aggressive player and etc. Boldin bought toughness to The Ravens offense and so does Steve Smith.  

 

Since Dfence4champs2052 told me go find a players guide(not trying to be sarcastic or smart) I guess the other aggressive player  Harbaugh supposely released was Bernard Pollard but James Ihedigbo replaced him in 2013 whom was a better cover safety and cheaper. The Ravens have been able to replace Pollard not once but twice with Ihedigbo and Hill.

 

 

Boldin was making 6 million before he was traded and Steve Smith is making 4 million right now. I don't remember entirely how much Pollard was making before he was cut  I think it was 2 or 3 million while guys like Ihedigbo and Hill  were making less and are better safeties. I really don't understand why Ravens fans keep bringing up Boldin or even Pollard when we have replaced them with cheaper/better talent.

If what you're saying is that Harbaugh was somewhat resposnible for the methodical purging of talent in favor of more agreealbe players that saw eye to eye with him, you may have a very valid point. Like somebody said in some post I read, Harbaugh has purged the swagger right out of the Ravens!

[jazz1988]

If what you're saying is that Harbaugh was somewhat resposnible for the methodical purging of talent in favor of more agreealbe players that saw eye to eye with him, you may have a very valid point. Like somebody said in some post I read, Harbaugh has purged the swagger right out of the Ravens!

 

So you saying getting rid of guys like Boldin and Pollard took away the swagger from the team even though for majority of the time none of these guys were Ravens for most of their career.The Ravens swagger has been around way before those guys got here. 

 

 Harbaugh has never shy away from players that would debate against his methods. I remember years ago when him and Derrick Mason would get into  a  argument on the sidelines but yet when he was a free agent he was re-signed.  Ravens fans seem to picture Harbaugh as this egotistic coach that wants yes men at all times but where is this evidence to prove this other than speculations?

[TuckerTime9]

It's going to take any team a little luck here and there to win a super bowl.