Talent Issue- Why the surprise with browns loss?

[GrimCoconut]

Julio wasn't even the first WR taken in that draft by the way let alone a once every 5 year talent. Calvin Johnson was when he was picked.

On another note, I don't have the time to read through that entire thing and give you a good counterarguement. Try to at least organize your thoughts into paragraphs as it makes it easier for all involved as opposed to a big wall of text. I'll give you this from what I have read.

Basically my thoughts are that we can always move up a few spots for a player but since I didn't hear the phone calls it is kinda hard to know what the terms are or if teams are even moving down.

I also think the Ravens had really high hopes on Perriman this year, I feel that we should have at least had a backup plan if he wasn't ready but oh well. The injury there is what is killing us because he was going to be our speed threat to make things easier for everyone.

I applaud you for having the patience for reading that wall of text. I hope your eyes are OK.

[The Raven]

Defensively, the issue isn't talent. It's injuries. We lost two of our top three corners Sunday. Why the hell did we play well the first half, when we had three starters at CB, and then tank in the second half when two of them got hurt? Hmm...... If Webb and Davis don't get hurt, I think we win.

 

Offensively, we need receiver help. No surprise.

[Winchester]

Julio wasn't even the first WR taken in that draft by the way let alone a once every 5 year talent. Calvin Johnson was when he was picked.

On another note, I don't have the time to read through that entire thing and give you a good counterarguement. Try to at least organize your thoughts into paragraphs as it makes it easier for all involved as opposed to a big wall of text. I'll give you this from what I have read.

Basically my thoughts are that we can always move up a few spots for a player but since I didn't hear the phone calls it is kinda hard to know what the terms are or if teams are even moving down.

I also think the Ravens had really high hopes on Perriman this year, I feel that we should have at least had a backup plan if he wasn't ready but oh well. The injury there is what is killing us because he was going to be our speed threat to make things easier for everyone.

Dude I am a writer\actor. And it is nice to just not have to stress all that organization and kick back and talk some NFL. If you want organization i will post my plays.lol, if you want to talk football this is the way i write. Sorry. I did not want to talk fault of a 1-4 record. But sorry oz has been terrible. I do not have time to put out thefe all his terrible moves and the crestivity, hindsight and assertiveness that are not present In his rookie I like your post. But just cuz Julio was not the first receiver taken does not mean he wasn't rated higher than Cooper. Has to do with the draft and who is available. Maxx went In round2 and is not nearly the player pitta is when healthy. Just a terrible year for TEs!! Williams played in a weak division and is far overhyped!! Watkins was rated a touch lower than Jones or green and Cooper was rated a touch lower than watkins. However I personally like Cooper better. Watkins is the better more dynamic athlete but Cooper is smarter and more dedicated to his craft. But I do think the raiders did not want to trade out of range for Cooper or white. So I agree it would have been steep. I like that you agree counting on a a raw rookie. Especially when he appears to be a role type WR than featured WR. I was following the draft this year but i got busy with work and a beautiful sweet girl and did not have room In My schedule to post. (And she actually agrees with everything i say and roots for the ravens even though she is not from maryland and dislikes\criticizes Ozzie's decisions with me and calls for him to be replaced, lol) Anyways Perriman caught my eye before I stopped posting. He looked to have good speed and athleticism but very raw and showed little moves craftiness in his routes to be a true #1. When he was still projected to be a round4-5 pick I posted some team was going to pick him in round 2 or even one!! I just did not think it would be the ravens!! Because I do not

See him as a #1 feature WR. Especially his dad being a WR he should be far more polished than he is!! Which means he does not have the natural instincts,savvy or innovativeness to be a featured WR. No way should oz have put his chips forward on a receiver that raw to start!! Should have made a move for WR. BTW Allen Robinson was a round2 pick and is a far better prospect coming out of school. Trading up is essential to replace pro bowlers. Oz's drafts have not replaced any departed impact players. Now age is catching suggs and dumervil and there are no dynamic explosive game changing edge rushers to coach up and replace them currently on the roster. I do think Joe can run the table if we acquired a legit WR to partner with SS and got the oline back intact.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Of course you don't give up that much for one player!! Even though an argument can be made Jones is a once every 5 year talent. Impact players can not be replaced. Role players come a dime a dozen. If the player does not work out you trade up for then it does not set you back any further than when your late round1 pick is a bust and your round2-4 picks are busts and role players!! This team has lost impact players and not replaced them!! The so called wizzard should have been making moves to replace and or add the impact players. I can not believe what I am reading on this board. Everybody is making excuses for oz not having top10 picks then defending his decision to sit on the picks and load the roster with busts and role players!! Forget Ozzie's busts and bad signings. Name ONE impact player added in the last 6 drafts. Mosley is the only one you could remotely make a case for. Dumervil is the only impact free agent that has been added in the last 9 years. Unless you count Steve Smith a 2 year rental. By his own acknowledgement he is a #2 at the current moment of his career. It is amazing nobody wants to give up a #3 pick for a potential #1 WR. As if we are going to miss out on an all pro player with that pick!! I don't get why everybody is defending oz and his lack of creativity to maneuver into a top 15 pick and get the ravens some game changers. The team is losing game changers to age, money or whatever. And is not adding any game changers. Oz is not even playing the drafts strengths. 2014 was his best shot to change is reputation on his complete incompetence drafting WRs and he ignores the position!! Everybody knew Torry was not a #1WR yet was going to look to get paid. Suggs and Dumervil are aging yet their replacement is not currently on the foster to learn from them. This draft oz had 2 options at WR. Trade up and secure a more dynamic commodity like White or Cooper. Or sit at 26 and reach for whatever WR name is left in the hat. By not trading up for Hopkins in 2013 or playing the 2014 drafts strengths and drafting Robinson or Matthews the ravens were locked into drafting a WR this draft. Problem is, most rookie WRs are not ready to make an impact. Especially a raw project like Perriman. Which means oz should have known he was entering the season with Smith a year older, fragile Campanaro and 2 way overhyped undrafted WRs. I tried to cool down everybody's enthusiasm and tell everybody oz should have signed a WR or traded for one before the season. At least another legit #2 caliber WR. Everybody including my best friends became upset at me for saying that!! I would have traded our Roud1 pick last year for Allen Robinson in .04 seconds over drafting perriman!! He is a better prospect coming out, plays faster than Perriman and showed impact promise as a rookie. The defense is not going to be good this year unless they acquire an impact edge rusher. The ravens route to a winning season rests on Joe cool. They need to trade for a legit WR. At least a legit #2 caliber with speed and pair him with Steve Smith when he returns. Then hope the online gets healthy and dominates like it is capable of. And maybe the ravens go on a winning streak and get into the playoffs playing their best football offensively!! And they could potentially win a shootout with anybody. BUT oz and his followers would likely frown at the idea of trading a draft pick or couple draft picks. As if they have yielded anything that significant. Even for an impact WR. I suppose everybody thinks we need some more mediocre TEs. But when the oline is back intact and dominates like they should. And if they would only acquire a legit WR to pair with Steve Smith when he returns Joe Cool already proven he can hang 30-40 every game and control the ball. And by playoff time guys on defense like jernigan Mosley Dumervil Hill Davis could be up to speed enough to provide a little defense. But they got to acquire a legit WR and allow Joe cool a shot to carry the team to the postseason. Joe cool has done a lot with these scrubs. He deserves a legit WR to show he can win any shootout and get the team on a run. No QB could do it with the current weapons!! Not Brady or Rodgers. Joe deserves a WR and coaching and management to hand him the keys and show him some trust and say screw the defense go win some games for us Joe. This would be a great test for Joe Cool. To prove he is an elite franchise QB that can carry the team to an 8-3 record or better the rest of the way. If it takes a round2 and a round3or4 pick to bring in the WR then so be it. Give Joe cool a shot to get the team on a run.

 

I'm gonna wait til your movie comes out 'cause I don't have time to read your novel but I like most of what I read in the 1st chapter. Its where you say "screw the defense go win some games for us Joe" that I have the problem. Ask Dan Fouts and Don Coryell how that worked for the Chargers team, nicknamed "Air Coryell."

[PurpleCity5]

Im watching San Diego right now, Philip Rivers isn't the kind of guy you want to blitz. If we can't cover or blitz, then I don't know what you will do against an elite QB like Philip Rivers.

[Dfence4champs2052]

On Lewis and Arrington, I think both would be playing better in a different system with a different coordinator. There's just something about the Ravens' defense that just brings out the worst in the DBs. Either Pees' system or the DB coaching. I wouldn't be surprised if Brooks and Elam would be playing at a higher level if they were on another team.

 

I have to agree...seems like those that have left are doing much better. Graham, Stewart....even Cary until these last two games.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Why not trade up several slots in round one for a change?? Since most mid rounders are busts and role players anyways!! Hmmm 2-3 busts and mediocre role players or one impact player?? Biscotti had to make him trade up for Flacco!! Same thing every draft oz sits on his thumbs and nievely thinks the players the scouts are high on will be there. Then he reaches for a bust or role player or trades back and drafts some more busts. Upshaw,Elam,Kindle,Cody,Dickson,Perriman. Is anybody aware the ravens wanted Bryant and Gronk in 2010?? Oz incompetently sat there while more competent more assertive GMs traded in front of him. Same thing in 2012,2013 and 2015. Let's not get started on the contracts oz handed out to injured,erratic or declining players. On yes Ray Rice was in Decline. Watch him run the ball in 2009 then 2012!! Ray Rice would be 30-31 RB right now and still holds salary cap implications!! It was a bad signing idea go an aging RB with lots of miles on his tires since college!! It was a Bad signing idea even without the popular Halloween costume idea he treated everybody to. Every gm deserves the benefit of bad luck for one signing. But they are pretty much all bad!! How many get out of jail free cards is he going to get??

 

Damn....that's perspective.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Trading up is a good idea sometimes and sometimes its not.  If we traded away a majority of our mid round picks for 1 impact guy then we would be stuck with the same problem we have now, we have no quality depth.  We have drafted fairly well over the last few years considering we are always picking late in the rounds.  I would not consider Perriman a bust until he plays games and we see what he is made of.  Elam is still young and could turn into a decent backup for us, obviously not what you want from a first round pick but its something.  Our team stinks right now but we have to try and find the positives, because there is a lot of good we can build on moving forward and hopefully have a quick turnaround for next season

 

We have no playmakers and no quality depth right now.........

[PurpleCity5]

Of course you don't give up that much for one player!! Even though an argument can be made Jones is a once every 5 year talent. Impact players can not be replaced. Role players come a dime a dozen. If the player does not work out you trade up for then it does not set you back any further than when your late round1 pick is a bust and your round2-4 picks are busts and role players!! This team has lost impact players and not replaced them!! The so called wizzard should have been making moves to replace and or add the impact players. I can not believe what I am reading on this board. Everybody is making excuses for oz not having top10 picks then defending his decision to sit on the picks and load the roster with busts and role players!! Forget Ozzie's busts and bad signings. Name ONE impact player added in the last 6 drafts. Mosley is the only one you could remotely make a case for. Dumervil is the only impact free agent that has been added in the last 9 years. Unless you count Steve Smith a 2 year rental. By his own acknowledgement he is a #2 at the current moment of his career. It is amazing nobody wants to give up a #3 pick for a potential #1 WR. As if we are going to miss out on an all pro player with that pick!! I don't get why everybody is defending oz and his lack of creativity to maneuver into a top 15 pick and get the ravens some game changers. The team is losing game changers to age, money or whatever. And is not adding any game changers. Oz is not even playing the drafts strengths. 2014 was his best shot to change is reputation on his complete incompetence drafting WRs and he ignores the position!! Everybody knew Torry was not a #1WR yet was going to look to get paid. Suggs and Dumervil are aging yet their replacement is not currently on the foster to learn from them. This draft oz had 2 options at WR. Trade up and secure a more dynamic commodity like White or Cooper. Or sit at 26 and reach for whatever WR name is left in the hat. By not trading up for Hopkins in 2013 or playing the 2014 drafts strengths and drafting Robinson or Matthews the ravens were locked into drafting a WR this draft. Problem is, most rookie WRs are not ready to make an impact. Especially a raw project like Perriman. Which means oz should have known he was entering the season with Smith a year older, fragile Campanaro and 2 way overhyped undrafted WRs. I tried to cool down everybody's enthusiasm and tell everybody oz should have signed a WR or traded for one before the season. At least another legit #2 caliber WR. Everybody including my best friends became upset at me for saying that!! I would have traded our Roud1 pick last year for Allen Robinson in .04 seconds over drafting perriman!! He is a better prospect coming out, plays faster than Perriman and showed impact promise as a rookie. The defense is not going to be good this year unless they acquire an impact edge rusher. The ravens route to a winning season rests on Joe cool. They need to trade for a legit WR. At least a legit #2 caliber with speed and pair him with Steve Smith when he returns. Then hope the online gets healthy and dominates like it is capable of. And maybe the ravens go on a winning streak and get into the playoffs playing their best football offensively!! And they could potentially win a shootout with anybody. BUT oz and his followers would likely frown at the idea of trading a draft pick or couple draft picks. As if they have yielded anything that significant. Even for an impact WR. I suppose everybody thinks we need some more mediocre TEs. But when the oline is back intact and dominates like they should. And if they would only acquire a legit WR to pair with Steve Smith when he returns Joe Cool already proven he can hang 30-40 every game and control the ball. And by playoff time guys on defense like jernigan Mosley Dumervil Hill Davis could be up to speed enough to provide a little defense. But they got to acquire a legit WR and allow Joe cool a shot to carry the team to the postseason. Joe cool has done a lot with these scrubs. He deserves a legit WR to show he can win any shootout and get the team on a run. No QB could do it with the current weapons!! Not Brady or Rodgers. Joe deserves a WR and coaching and management to hand him the keys and show him some trust and say screw the defense go win some games for us Joe. This would be a great test for Joe Cool. To prove he is an elite franchise QB that can carry the team to an 8-3 record or better the rest of the way. If it takes a round2 and a round3or4 pick to bring in the WR then so be it. Give Joe cool a shot to get the team on a run.

The Great Wall Of Words.

[SomeCreepinaVan]

I wasn't surprised at all. I said Forsett would have 125 yards (he had 121 yards) and Aiken would get 100 (78 yards, he totally disappeared the 2nd half), but I felt we'd still lose. I did think we'd win by halftime. There's not enough talent in key areas and Joe makes too many key mistakes for us to win with this roster.

 

Some fans insist that this offense is good. Who cares if they put up 30 against the Browns' bad defense. Haden didn't even play the second half, and we looked terrible. We didn't even put up 20 against the Bengals, considering one TD was by Mosley.

Edited October 13, 2015 by SomeCreepinaVan

[SomeCreepinaVan]

The Great Wall Of Words.

Let's bow and worship it. You are now our new wizard of oz!

[Winchester]

I'm gonna wait til your movie comes out 'cause I don't have time to read your novel but I like most of what I read in the 1st chapter. Its where you say "screw the defense go win some games for us Joe" that I have the problem. Ask Dan Fouts and Don Coryell how that worked for the Chargers team, nicknamed "Air Coryell."

As bad as the defense looks it is not that bad!!lol They do have some players that have performed well but are underperforming as of now. By playoff time they could be pretty respectable. And I never said ignore fixing the defense altogether!! I said get Joe a WR that some team thought was actually worth drafting. Not these undrafted jobbers that should have never been anything more than training camp fodder. And give Joe a shot to be a franchise qb and carry the team. Besides did not fouts choke in playoff games?? That is not Joe cool. Several recent superbowls were shootouts. Get Joe a legit high end #2 WR at least to pair with SS when he returns. I bet even Ozzie could handle getting Joe a legit NFL caliber WR without ignoring the defense completely In the off season. Brown and Aiken can be more of former NFL garbage turned cfl stars.

[usmccharles]

Dude I am a writer\actor. And it is nice to just not have to stress all that organization and kick back and talk some NFL. If you want organization i will post my plays.lol, if you want to talk football this is the way i write. Sorry. I did not want to talk fault of a 1-4 record. But sorry oz has been terrible. I do not have time to put out thefe all his terrible moves and the crestivity, hindsight and assertiveness that are not present In his rookie I like your post. But just cuz Julio was not the first receiver taken does not mean he wasn't rated higher than Cooper. Has to do with the draft and who is available. Maxx went In round2 and is not nearly the player pitta is when healthy. Just a terrible year for TEs!! Williams played in a weak division and is far overhyped!! Watkins was rated a touch lower than Jones or green and Cooper was rated a touch lower than watkins. However I personally like Cooper better. Watkins is the better more dynamic athlete but Cooper is smarter and more dedicated to his craft. But I do think the raiders did not want to trade out of range for Cooper or white. So I agree it would have been steep. I like that you agree counting on a a raw rookie. Especially when he appears to be a role type WR than featured WR. I was following the draft this year but i got busy with work and a beautiful sweet girl and did not have room In My schedule to post. (And she actually agrees with everything i say and roots for the ravens even though she is not from maryland and dislikes\criticizes Ozzie's decisions with me and calls for him to be replaced, lol) Anyways Perriman caught my eye before I stopped posting. He looked to have good speed and athleticism but very raw and showed little moves craftiness in his routes to be a true #1. When he was still projected to be a round4-5 pick I posted some team was going to pick him in round 2 or even one!! I just did not think it would be the ravens!! Because I do not

See him as a #1 feature WR. Especially his dad being a WR he should be far more polished than he is!! Which means he does not have the natural instincts,savvy or innovativeness to be a featured WR. No way should oz have put his chips forward on a receiver that raw to start!! Should have made a move for WR. BTW Allen Robinson was a round2 pick and is a far better prospect coming out of school. Trading up is essential to replace pro bowlers. Oz's drafts have not replaced any departed impact players. Now age is catching suggs and dumervil and there are no dynamic explosive game changing edge rushers to coach up and replace them currently on the roster. I do think Joe can run the table if we acquired a legit WR to partner with SS and got the oline back intact.

Holy lack of paragraphs batman.  I dont know what being an writer/actor has to do with organizing your thoughts so we can decipher the madness....

 

Moving up to get a julio, cooper, white, megatron, etc is too costly when you are picking in the late 20s, its just not feasable unless you want to hinder your future years.  Yea we have a rough patch now but if we would have done something like that we wouldnt grab williams, davis, wagner, etc...This isnt madden.  Trust me im frustrated as well that Joe has never had a top WR to that caliber, but honestly not many teams do.  I wish we would have been able to grab Dez, but we didnt, we move on and build a different way. 

 

Its frustaing when you see teams, especially like the steelers hit on so many late round WRs, but you actually have to take those chances which we hardly ever do, it worked well with Torrey. 

 

You make some valid points but your solutions just arent feasable, im not a draft guru, but to have traded up from 26 to get cooper....your looking at numerous picks, it took 5 to get julio.  You can sit there and criticize who the browns picked with those 5 picks and say they didnt make a difference, but they are the browns, no one expects them to draft well, and they didnt.  If Oz would of been their GM, i would bet money that he would of had nailed almost all those picks with them being that early. 

 

-Phil Taylor- injury bust

-Greg Little - small production

-Owen Marecic-who?

- Brandon Weeden- bc they are the browns

-Trent Richardson- who was traded to the colts and got back a 1st round to take...Johny Manziel

 

Do you know Julio has only had two 1000 yard seasons?  He has been hurt numerous times and yet he imo is still a top guy.  We dont know what we have in BP...but dont judge so quick and give the player some time.  Maybe Oz hit with this one, but we dont know yet

[Ravens2343]

We have no playmakers and no quality depth right now.........

 

I think we have playmakers, they are just all hurt at the moment.  If we had good depth we could mask some of those injuries, but having Babin and Upshaw fill in for Dumervil and Suggs is a joke.  SSS is awesome, but when he is hurt we have no one else.  Monroe went down and we had to rely on an undrafted rookie at Left Tackle.  Potentially picking high in the draft this year will be good for our team, they can finally add playmakers who either will start or provide great depth. 

[Guest]

I just posted this in the other thread.

 

On offense, it's a talent issue and has ALWAYS been a talent issue. The lack of investment on the offensive side of the ball, especially at receiver, has been a talking point for YEARS. We consistently expect the Tandon Dosses and Marlon Browns of the world to step into starting positions. No team relies on unproven talent at offensive skill positions the way we do. It's amazing that they're producing at all.

 

On defense however, you can't convince me it's a talent issue. This defense has been going downhill since Pagano left. You cannot convince me that a defense with CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, Jimmy Smith, Elvis Dumervil, and Will Hill has no talent. I'm even starting to wonder if Matt Elam was really that bad (he showed promise under Teryl Austin his rookie season) or just a casualty of poor coaching.

One moment in regard to your stalwarts...Mosely cannot cover to save his life. He literally disappeared vs the Crownies.  I'll give you Brandon Williams as an exception.  Jimmy Smith has not been what he was.  Elvis Dumervil cannot stay onside. Ed Reed would never have allowed Bainridge to catch that ball with his butt. Reed would have been going the other way.

 

Carr, Dalton, McCown had season highs against it. Manning not so much, he's a empty can. Mike Vick completed a high percentage, though he may have had a better game last night.

 

Our Defense sucks. 

[PurpleCity5]

Let's bow and worship it. You are now our new wizard of oz!

Yes, one of the monuments of the world.

[52N19]

I rewatched the game last night and the problem with eh defense is they can't get pressure. sacks don't matter its about making the qb throw before the receiver finishes his route and getting the qb off their spot.

 

other then very little pressure despite blitzing and a couple of blown assignments the team played well. the difference in the game was the incurring of penalties in crucial situations. many of the penalties were on rookies. a penalty on a third down is like a turnover because instead of getting the ball the opponent gets a new set of downs. Wallers block in the back was a stupid call. he blocked him into the tackle.

 

the officiating is so different week to week I don't know how you coach these players. its a physical game. you are going to touch the opponent.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

As bad as the defense looks it is not that bad!!lol They do have some players that have performed well but are underperforming as of now. By playoff time they could be pretty respectable. And I never said ignore fixing the defense altogether!! I said get Joe a WR that some team thought was actually worth drafting. Not these undrafted jobbers that should have never been anything more than training camp fodder. And give Joe a shot to be a franchise qb and carry the team. Besides did not fouts choke in playoff games?? That is not Joe cool. Several recent superbowls were shootouts. Get Joe a legit high end #2 WR at least to pair with SS when he returns. I bet even Ozzie could handle getting Joe a legit NFL caliber WR without ignoring the defense completely In the off season. Brown and Aiken can be more of former NFL garbage turned cfl stars.

 

Injuries and stupid penalties have really hurt us on the defensive side of the ball but giving up 505 yards to the Brownies is bad when their offense was rated 20th. Throw in another 98 yards in penalties and its a recipe for losing. What bothered me most was the 139 yard/ 8 reception day fro an unknown TE. He had twice as many catches as our #1 WR and almost double the yardage. IMO, we need to clean house in the secondary with the exception of Jimmy and Webb. Moseley had a difficult day in coverage against the TE but he'll bounce back from it. I agree with your opinion about needing another high end WR to complement SSS but I'm not sure who is available or whether we can afford the type of receiver we need. I'm not as confident that Ozzie will land someone before the trading deadline due to cap issues.   

[Dfence4champs2052]

I think we have playmakers, they are just all hurt at the moment.  If we had good depth we could mask some of those injuries, but having Babin and Upshaw fill in for Dumervil and Suggs is a joke.  SSS is awesome, but when he is hurt we have no one else.  Monroe went down and we had to rely on an undrafted rookie at Left Tackle.  Potentially picking high in the draft this year will be good for our team, they can finally add playmakers who either will start or provide great depth. 

 

This is true. I should have also said aside from SSS. He's definitely our #1 playmaking guy.