Ozzie Newsome (Merged)

[rmcjacket23]

Respect your opinion,

 

I'd only ask one thing from everyone though....accurately identify the cap savings from purges in regard to the cap expenses for the acquired replacements.  When those replacements walk away with the savings despite not playing, you've got a phenomena that is hard to explain.

Also, keep in mind that a "purge" of sorts implies that we actually released players, which mostly didn't happen. There were guys like Pollard who were actually released from an existing contract, but most of the players that left since 2013 were FAs who weren't retained.

 

Realistically, there is no real "cap savings" from not retaining a FA. There's theoretical cap savings, based on the amount of contract they signed with somebody else, but its not exactly cut and dry to quantify the cap savings of not retaining somebody who wasn't under contract to begin with.

[ravens88]

Well the Lions have Stafford and Johnson.

Raiders had Asomugha

Browns had Josh Gordon.

All top level talent pro bowlers at one time or another. Where are their Super Bowl rings?

What Seahawks wideout made the pro bowl the past two seasons?

Seahawks traded for Lynch pro bowl RB, drafted Wilson in the 3rd and have drafted a ton of probowl defensive talent in the secondary and some weren't even the top rounds. something we have not done once again in the last 5-6 years. Elam, Smith, Upshaw, Kindle, Cody, etc list goes on we haven't drafted well enough I don't what to tell you. Each draft we seem to barely hit and by hit get players to just play not be consistent or even remotely game changing talents, we draft 2-3 If that, players that standout to us because we watch the ravens but don't really make noise beyond that. Name me a player outside Mosely that you can say is a consistent elite talent player that we have drafted in the last 5 years...... I'll be waiting.

[rmcjacket23]

Seahawks traded for Lynch pro bowl RB, drafted Wilson in the 3rd and have drafted a ton of probowl defensive talent in the secondary and some weren't even the top rounds. something we have not done once again in the last 5-6 years. Elam, Smith, Upshaw, Kindle, Cody, etc list goes on we haven't drafted well enough I don't what to tell you. Each draft we seem to barely hit and by hit get players to just play not be consistent or even remotely game changing talents, we draft 2-3 If that, players that standout to us because we watch the ravens but don't really make noise beyond that. Name me a player outside Mosely that you can say is a consistent elite talent player that we have drafted in the last 5 years...... I'll be waiting.

Cool, but no team is prone to perfect drafting or perfect trades.

 

Remember, they traded for Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham too, and neither of them looks great at the moment.

 

The reality is... name barely any teams who consistently draft in the bottom third of the draft who consistently draft elite level players in the last five years? I don't see many, if any. 

 

The Seahawks don't even really qualify, because a lot of these guys that we think are studs have been there for quite awhile, some of them even  before the Seahawks were good. You wouldn't even be that impressed by the Seahawks drafts in the last 3-4 years.

[ravensdfan]

Splitting with Boldin over 2 million still hurts.

Paying pitta and rice for 0% production hurts.

Not too upset with parting ways with ngata bc of the money...but I do think Ozzie gave the reigns to Williams/Jernigan way to fast.

I think Oz and ALL OF US..took Torrey for granted. Now maybe none of us would've matched 40 million. But maybe if our cap situation looked better maybe we could have gave that to him.

I think Ozzie needs to look at anyone making more than 4 million a year and seriously evaluate whether or not we can get rid of them..this team has money tied up in positions that aren't getting the job done.

I'd rather start over with draft picks then to watch players making 3-8 million a year stinking it up..

 

Torrey wasn't a mistake. He isn't worth 40 million.

One of my biggest beefs with Ozzie and the Front office this year is the WR situation..

These guys sat down and decided that a WR entering his late 30s/an unproven rookie with droppies/and some other unproven wrs were gonna get the job done. Unacceptable.

This is my beef as well. Then I think, well, yeah they looked good because they were facing Pees defense! Ozzie isn't infallible. There have been some head scratching moves recently and giving Pitta that contract after the first hip injury is one of them. An incentive laden contract for one year to see how he came back would have been better.

 

He ignored the offense too long as well. If you look around the league we are literally the ONLY team that does not give their franchise QB shiny new weapons until his 8th season.

Edited October 15, 2015 by ravensdfan

[redrum52]

hahah, dont forget John and Joe. Might as well add Tucker in there, hes terrible, he missed that kick at home that cost us the game....

Don't forget Poe. Bottom 10 mascot...

[redrum52]

Torrey wasn't a mistake. He isn't worth 40 million.

This is my beef as well. Then I think, well, yeah they looked good because they were facing Pees defense! Ozzie isn't infallible. There have been some head scratching moves recently and giving Pitta that contract after the first hip injury is one of them. An incentive laden contract for one year to see how he came back would have been better.

He ignored the offense too long as well. If you look around the league we are literally the ONLY team that does not give their franchise QB shiny new weapons until his 8th season.

He didn't ignore anything. Not many teams have a good line and top tier weapons. It doesn't work that way. The o line came in, projected as one of the best. Drafted a wr, drafted a TE and had the other parts in place. A line up of SSS, Perriman, Camp and Aiken didn't sound bad. It's not Ozzie's fault that 3 of those guys went down and NO TEAM plans to have their 3rd or 4th wr being able to produce at a #1 level. Ozzie hasn't been ignoring anything. Players and producing and coaches could be doing a better job. Plain and simple. I guarantee this offense looks different if Perriman is playing. I guarantee the defense is better if Suggs is playing. As much as the team tries to play off the injuries, they're severely crippling this team. The only thing I agree with you on is the Pitta contract, somewhat

[The Mom Gene]

So, we're a good team, always contending, and we bring in guys that are good receivers....  Maybe not top #1 Drafts, but he has had weapons... AJ Greens???  no, Julio Jones??? no, Calvin Johnson??? no, Beckham, Jr.??? no...  Do we know what had to happen for those teams to get them???  They had to TANK folks.... and that's how to get low #1 picks.   We have consistently been drafting in the late 20"s to even 32nd in 2013....  Everybody screams about drafting a WR this year in the first round... so we do.  Nobody EVER thought that he'd go down with an injury... Neither did Ozzie???  Did we think Pitta would go down again???  Just like Joe said yesterday...  when you start placing blame, you are looking for scape-goats that constitute excuses for a lack of performance.  And I gotta say?  I agree.

 

We won a Super Bowl with Torrey, Jacoby, Boldin, Pitta, Ray Rice....  Did we have a flashy #1???  No.  Apparently, we didn't need one...  and yet we still won.

 

We had an older Lewis, Suggs, Ngata Reed, and lots of other veteran players.... and even they were pretty banged up too.

[redrum52]

In my opinion something happened to Oz with the Championship. The post Championship player turnover was a clear indication Oz really thought he could plug in new pieces for All Pros.

When he quibbled over Boldin's value the alarm went off. It's been ringing ever since.

We were on of the older teams in the league. Ozzie realized positions needed to be rebuilt. We keep those some of those guys, who didn't retire, and we're just facing the problems a little later. Guys always want to see youth brought in. In juries and growing pains. Deal with it.

As for the Pro Bowl argument. KO has never made a pro bowl and Flacco never voted as well. Jimmy didn't either, even when playing well and I'm pretty Hill didn't last year. Good players don't always make the pro bowl and there's also the fact, who. You draft late in the firat, as we had been, it's harDer to get immediate, impact players. I don't think it's a coincidence that after 8-8, good draft position, guess what? Our rookie made pro bowl...

[Winchester]

You guys are using excuse after excuse then illogical sarcasm to defend Ozzie!! Cut Tucker??!! Now if Tucker really has failed as much as oz, he would have been cut long ago!!! The teams talent is terrible. Oz has drafted terrible!! Let me ask this question. What is the excuse going to be when Perriman and Fat Max Williams are mediocre to downright busts?? Are you guys still going to make excuses for Ozzie?? The fact that you have to make excuse after excuse for oz proves he has been terrible since 2010.

[rmcjacket23]

You guys are using excuse after excuse then illogical sarcasm to defend Ozzie!! Cut Tucker??!! Now if Tucker really has failed as much as oz, he would have been cut long ago!!! The teams talent is terrible. Oz has drafted terrible!! Let me ask this question. What is the excuse going to be when Perriman and Fat Max Williams are mediocre to downright busts?? Are you guys still going to make excuses for Ozzie?? The fact that you have to make excuse after excuse for oz proves he has been terrible since 2010.

Cool. So then provide me the name of who should be GM of this team AND why he will be a better GM than Ozzie? What is his background? What experience does he have evaluating talent and running an organization well?

 

These guys are harder to find than good QBs...

[redrum52]

You guys are using excuse after excuse then illogical sarcasm to defend Ozzie!! Cut Tucker??!! Now if Tucker really has failed as much as oz, he would have been cut long ago!!! The teams talent is terrible. Oz has drafted terrible!! Let me ask this question. What is the excuse going to be when Perriman and Fat Max Williams are mediocre to downright busts?? Are you guys still going to make excuses for Ozzie?? The fact that you have to make excuse after excuse for oz proves he has been terrible since 2010.

11, 12 and 14 drafts were horrible, huh? Even in 13, an atrocious draft CLASS, by the way, we got 3 starters. What do you qualify as a good draft?

[ravensdfan]

He didn't ignore anything. Not many teams have a good line and top tier weapons. It doesn't work that way. The o line came in, projected as one of the best. Drafted a wr, drafted a TE and had the other parts in place. A line up of SSS, Perriman, Camp and Aiken didn't sound bad. It's not Ozzie's fault that 3 of those guys went down and NO TEAM plans to have their 3rd or 4th wr being able to produce at a #1 level. Ozzie hasn't been ignoring anything. Players and producing and coaches could be doing a better job. Plain and simple. I guarantee this offense looks different if Perriman is playing. I guarantee the defense is better if Suggs is playing. As much as the team tries to play off the injuries, they're severely crippling this team. The only thing I agree with you on is the Pitta contract, somewhat

This season. He did that this season.

 

So a rookie, an aging vet on his farewell tour, a career journeyman and a 2nd yr with what? 5 catches coming in? That sounds like a solid to you? Sorry, I disagree and I said so during the off season when all the PR build up was going on about our WR corps.

[Ravens2343]

You guys are using excuse after excuse then illogical sarcasm to defend Ozzie!! Cut Tucker??!! Now if Tucker really has failed as much as oz, he would have been cut long ago!!! The teams talent is terrible. Oz has drafted terrible!! Let me ask this question. What is the excuse going to be when Perriman and Fat Max Williams are mediocre to downright busts?? Are you guys still going to make excuses for Ozzie?? The fact that you have to make excuse after excuse for oz proves he has been terrible since 2010.

 

I wouldn't go out and say Perriman and Williams will be mediocre or busts when Williams is 21 years old with 5 games under his belt and Perriman is 22 with no games played yet.  Ozzie has not had the strongest drafts recently, but what do you expect when we go on a 7 year stretch of being one of the better teams in the league. We cannot have it both ways where we are successful and land a top 5 player.  Ted Thompson and John Schneider are the only 2 gm's right now who could be considered "better" then Ozzie

[redrum52]

This season. He did that this season.

So a rookie, an aging vet on his farewell tour, a career journeyman and a 2nd yr with what? 5 catches coming in? That sounds like a solid to you? Sorry, I disagree and I said so during the off season when all the PR build up was going on about our WR corps.

13 traded for a LT and drafted our current starting RT. 14 picked up Steve, Owens, Forsett and traded for our starting center. If Ray doesn't go rogue in the off season, a good chance people aren't making these complaints now. He can't predict Pitta hip going out again. Since 12 he's brought in 4 of our 5 o linemen, while trying to bring in viable options at wr. You say Joe doesn't have a #1, but do we make big moves to bring in the defender?

People complain he only focuses on defense, but when do we see Ozzie pay a FA big money on ANY side of the of the ball? Since he brought in Mason, he's proven that his formula for offense has worked. He can't control player health, but with most teams, if guys go down, there's not much you can do.

Out of curiosity, who do you all think are the top 5 GMS anyway?

Also, teams aren't put together with just one season in mind. Not saying you, but some people are just short sighted.

Edited October 15, 2015 by redrum52

[Winchester]

We were on of the older teams in the league. Ozzie realized positions needed to be rebuilt. We keep those some of those guys, who didn't retire, and we're just facing the problems a little later. Guys always want to see youth brought in. In juries and growing pains. Deal with it.

As for the Pro Bowl argument. KO has never made a pro bowl and Flacco never voted as well. Jimmy didn't either, even when playing well and I'm pretty Hill didn't last year. Good players don't always make the pro bowl and there's also the fact, who. You draft late in the firat, as we had been, it's harder to get immediate, impact players. I don't think it's a coincidence that after 8-8, good draft position, guess what? Our rookie made pro bowl...

More excuses!! But totally not viable!! Many pro bowlers come in late round1 and round2. Oz has plain missed!! Why not trade up several slots?? Would you prefer 1 all pro or 2-3 role players/Busts?? Like I said to conservative. That draft was loaded. Mosley made the pro bowl but certainly was not the best selection at that spot!! If oz can not identify a WR, why not admit it and trade for one or signed Maclin?? Instead he picks perriman who will not play to Round one status. And of course Ozzie's flock will defend him and make excuses if he is mediocre or a bust.

We were on of the older teams in the league. Ozzie realized positions needed to be rebuilt. We keep those some of those guys, who didn't retire, and we're just facing the problems a little later. Guys always want to see youth brought in. In juries and growing pains. Deal with it.

As for the Pro Bowl argument. KO has never made a pro bowl and Flacco never voted as well. Jimmy didn't either, even when playing well and I'm pretty Hill didn't last year. Good players don't always make the pro bowl and there's also the fact, who. You draft late in the firat, as we had been, it's harDer to get immediate, impact players. I don't think it's a coincidence that after 8-8, good draft position, guess what? Our rookie made pro bowl...

[redrum52]

More excuses!! But totally not viable!! Many pro bowlers come in late round1 and round2. Oz has plain missed!! Why not trade up several slots?? Would you prefer 1 all pro or 2-3 role players/Busts?? Like I said to conservative. That draft was loaded. Mosley made the pro bowl but certainly was not the best selection at that spot!! If oz can not identify a WR, why not admit it and trade for one or signed Maclin?? Instead he picks perriman who will not play to Round one status. And of course Ozzie's flock will defend him and make excuses if he is mediocre or a bust.

So um... how do you know how Perriman will perform and what makes a glorified popularity contest, the measuring stuck for a players talent?

You're here crying with no solution to the problem...

There's also the fact you're wrong.

And pick up Maclin? Why not just keep Torrey then. Why bother keeping this going when you don't even have a slight understanding of the cap.

Edited October 15, 2015 by redrum52

[Ravens2343]

Out of curiosity, who do you all think are the top 5 GMS anyway?

Also, teams aren't put together with just one season in mind. Not saying you, but some people are just short sighted.

 

No particular order: Ozzie, Schneider(Seahawks), Thompson (Packers), Belichick (Patriots) and Lewis/Brown (Bengals)

 

Ozzie is definitely in the top 5 if not the top 3 for how long he has been successful

Edited October 15, 2015 by Ravens2343

[redrum52]

No particular order: Ozzie, Schneider(Seahawks), Thompson (Packers), Belichick (Patriots) and Lewis/Brown (Bengals)

Ozzie is definitely in the top 5 if not the top 3 for how long he has been successful

The Pats I think had more to do with coaching than drafting. I don't think they're that good, but that's me. I respect the Packers GM and Seahawks as well. I think it's a good split of coaching and drafting, cause they're early picks don't seem to produce, but they seem to always hit on later prospects. The thing I'll say about Seahawks and Bengals is, they both had top draft picks, it's seems for about 4-5 years, while the Packers, Pats and Ravens kept drafting later.

Brady and Rodgers can help cover up a lot of hokes on a team as well.

Edited October 15, 2015 by redrum52

[AsianRice]

we need Ozzie to spring his wand again for Suggs and Dumervil's replacements next year draft.......However, for most we need to send Pees packing and pick up a legit DC with "play like a Ravens" mentality....

[Winchester]

11, 12 and 14 drafts were horrible, huh? Even in 13, an atrocious draft CLASS, by the way, we got 3 starters. What do you qualify as a good draft?

2012 was terrible!! Traded away Harrison Smith landed bum upshaw!! 2 out of 3 early picks were busts!! 2013 landed a solid starters but nothing of impact. The top 2picks busts!! Jernigan has struggled without Ngata next to him. 2011 was OK but nothing special. Jimmy has been erratic. Wagner has been terrible this year. And finding starters means nothing when they are mediocre!! BTW in 2013 his scouts begged him to trade up several spots for Hopkins. Stubborn Ozzie said relax he will be there when on the clock. 2010 his conservative stubbornness cost the ravens Dez Bryant and Gronkowski!! Then he trades up for brown a bust and fat maxx Williams a mediocre player/Bust!! All these so called starters and the ravens are 1-4. No game changers type players in years!! BTW, calling the 2015 draft a bust already. Perriman will not play to round1 status. Maxx Williams will not be an elite TE. Hope to be wrong about that. But Williams looks very slow. Boyle looks better than him moving around. Fat max looked good against very weak college opposition. Lockett or Gregory should have been the round2 selection. Diggs will outplay Perriman. Going out on a limb here so gloat if you can if fat max or perriman happen to be impact players.

[wizard1]

The fact is Ozzie had a good run  it's a fact. Is Ozzie a genius?  absolutely not.! He has had way to many draft busts to be considered a genius Ozzie is old - actually really old by GM standards. We need ( and. will have ) a new coaching/FO staff next year. Out with the old -- in with the new. It's a basic football principla  Open up to the idea gang it's gonna happen !! 

[DenverRaven]

Out of curiosity, who do you all think are the top 5 GMS anyway?

 

 

Right now -- Thompson, OZ, Scheider, Caserio/BB, Keim (we'll se how it goes)... Honorable mention to Brown for putting the Bengals in a good position for the last 6 or so years. Also, Colbert gets a lot of crap but he's done wonders with that offense. Jerry Reese is also up and down.

Edited October 15, 2015 by DenverRaven

[Ravens2343]

The Pats I think had more to do with coaching than drafting. I don't think they're that good, but that's me. I respect the Packers GM and Seahawks as well. I think it's a good split of coaching and drafting, cause they're early picks don't seem to produce, but they seem to always hit on later prospects. The thing I'll say about Seahawks and Bengals is, they both had top draft picks, it's seems for about 4-5 years, while the Packers, Pats and Ravens kept drafting later.

Brady and Rodgers can help cover up a lot of hokes on a team as well.

 

Maybe its coaching but they hit homeruns outside of the first round recently with Gronk, Edleman and Collins.  The Hawks and Bengals may have had higher picks at one point, but both have been in the playoffs the last few years.  Sherman, Chancellor, Wright and Maxwell were all good picks.  Nonetheless all of these teams seem to draft well, but also of finding those free agents at the right price that fit well.  With a potentially high pick coming and some cap room, I expect us to have one of the more talented rosters in 2016

[Guest Omerta]

I think this has to be one of the more inane and arduous threads to read that I have seen in a long time. I am NOT going to say that Ozzie Newsome is infallible, or that he is not made his share of contract blunders. I do think, however, that when you look at his track record comparatively to the rest of the general managers in the league that he is actually made a lot of the smarter choices.

 

Does anybody remember Danelle Ellerbe? Remember how everybody said that we were losing out on some great young talent? Yeah, the guy is fighting for an NFL roster spot right now.

 

Remember Tom Zbikowski? I remember the murmurs of people saying we are losing out on another young talent who is coming into his own.

 

How about Jameel McClain?

 

How about Haloti Ngata?

 

What about having the cojones to let ed Reed walk?

 

What about Jamal Lewis?

 

All of these were guys that people said if we didn't bring back we would be idiots, only to go on to find out that they only have one or two more successful seasons with their respective new teams if that.

 

As far as the draft goes betting on human potential is one of the hardest things on the planet to do. You can look at any team in the NFL and find a draft bust, and odds are you can find some pretty horrid drafts by that team. Go look at some of the Patriots draft in the last five to seven years you're going to see your entire draft class is littered with just scrubs. The difference is Tom Brady hangs up 40 points a game with no name receiver except forJulian and Gronkowski, that is all that Tom Brady needs to work with. On the other side of the ball, bill has long been regarded as one of the better defensive mines in the game and certainly one of the best of his era.

 

Look at the Packers with Datone Jones, I bet they wish they had that one back.

 

I could go on and on and on about how other teams have success and how other teams fell in the draft, but if you look at it objectively you come to the conclusion, at least most of us, that just about every team has their share of successes and failures in the NFL draft and free agency. People are sitting here saying we don't make enough splash's look at the dolphins, how is Ndamukong Suh working out? That is not some random one off or factoid, that happens every single year in the NFL.

 

As to where Ozzie Newsome  ranks comparatively among his contemporaries is purely subjective by anyone. I think as far as the sustained success goes nobody can argue that anybody does it better than Ozzie Newsome in my opinion. Now lately you can look around and say teams have drafted better and you can probably have legitimate arguments to that fact. That being said yes we had a rough draft in 2012 but the last two drafts have been home runs in my opinion and with many. Breshad Perriman not playing, and Max Williams not getting acclimated as fast as it appears is being misconstrued. Then let's look at guys like Carl Davis, and Nick Boyle. Those are two young players were only going to get better and for Carl Davis that is a scary proposition for most teams.

 

I think in summation those calling for us to be fired or a tad shortsighted considering this is one of a couple bad seasons in the last 10 years, I think most teams in the league would take that. I think those calling for some accountability to be had sure I can agree with that, however, I think we really need to assess our coordinators, some of our position coaches, and maybe even head coach depending on how things play out the rest of the season, although I do not think Harbaugh isn't any real danger to this point. And go from there, I think one thing that is lacking is a true identity, however the that will come in some of our very young guys step up into the leadership roles. We are a team in transition at the moment, and there is nobody and I mean no, but I would rather have Ozzie Newsome.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Omerta

[rmcjacket23]

The fact is Ozzie had a good run  it's a fact. Is Ozzie a genius?  absolutely not.! He has had way to many draft busts to be considered a genius Ozzie is old - actually really old by GM standards. We need ( and. will have ) a new coaching/FO staff next year. Out with the old -- in with the new. It's a basic football principla  Open up to the idea gang it's gonna happen !! 

And when it doesn't... what will your response be?

[AsianRice]

The fact is Ozzie had a good run  it's a fact. Is Ozzie a genius?  absolutely not.! He has had way to many draft busts to be considered a genius Ozzie is old - actually really old by GM standards. We need ( and. will have ) a new coaching/FO staff next year. Out with the old -- in with the new. It's a basic football principla  Open up to the idea gang it's gonna happen !! 

I wonder what would happen to you when you are a Lions fan? fire everybody and replace with nobody?

[DenverRaven]

This franchise is nowhere without Oz. We don't win two SBs without him. Be careful what you wish for, folks. DeCosta might be great, but I'm not ready to take that risk in the next 5-10 years... Not yet.

[rmcjacket23]

I wonder what would happen to you when you are a Lions fan? fire everybody and replace with nobody?

They should definitely start polling the fanbase over all personnel decisions...

 

I'd buy more season tickets just to see the hilarity that ensues when the fans make the personnel decisions. Sometimes, watching a train-wreck is more fun than actually watching a quality product.

[Winchester]

Cool. So then provide me the name of who should be GM of this team AND why he will be a better GM than Ozzie? What is his background? What experience does he have evaluating talent and running an organization well?

 

These guys are harder to find than good QBs...

So um... how do you know how Perriman will perform and what makes a glorified popularity contest, the measuring stuck for a players talent?

You're here crying with no solution to the problem...

There's also the fact you're wrong.

And pick up Maclin? Why not just keep Torrey then. Why bother keeping this going when you don't even have a slight understanding of the cap.

Seriously?? Maclin is far more complete than torrey!!

Daniel jerimiah has been very very spot on with his draft analysis!! But the ravens have a particular scout that has been very very accurate. He was right about trading up for Hopkins and he was correct about upshaw and elam being busts. He lobbied for Allen Robinson,Tyler Lockett and trading up for Dez and Gronkowski. He wanted Geno Atkins and navorro Bowman drafted over Cody and Kindle. I hear He has caught Biscottis attention even if oz has been to proud to acknowledge his accuracy. Oz was accurate at one time but he is no longer in his prime. When Perriman and fat maxx bust he will be under fire.

[redrum52]

Seriously?? Maclin is far more complete than torrey!!

Daniel jerimiah has been very very spot on with his draft analysis!! But the ravens have a particular scout that has been very very accurate. He was right about trading up for Hopkins and he was correct about upshaw and elam being busts. He lobbied for Allen Robinson,Tyler Lockett and trading up for Dez and Gronkowski. He wanted Geno Atkins and navorro Bowman drafted over Cody and Kindle. I hear He has caught Biscottis attention even if oz has been to proud to acknowledge his accuracy. Oz was accurate at one time but he is no longer in his prime. When Perriman and fat maxx bust he will be under fire.

Under what rainbow would we find the money to pay Maclin?

And I'll concede the 12 draft was bad after looking at it again.

Edited October 15, 2015 by redrum52