The Dean Pees Thread (merged)

[The Raven]

Man, if people invested less time in crying about Pees and more into how we can improve our defensive personnel, we might actually have some intelligent discourse around here. Like really, Pees is here. Quit crying. Instead of grasping for straws, start talking about how the FO is moving forward: getting better players. I swear... Apparently maintaining leadership and replacing the players isn't a valid course of action....

 

And yes, what we need is better players. And by that, I mean pass rushers and aggressive defensive backs.

Edited January 8, 2016 by The Raven

[arnie_uk]

Man, if people invested less time in crying about Pees and more into how we can improve our defensive personnel, we might actually have some intelligent discourse around here. Like really, Pees is here. Quit crying. Instead of grasping for straws, start talking about how the FO is moving forward: getting better players. I swear... Apparently maintaining leadership and replacing the players isn't a valid course of action....

And yes, what we need is better players. And by that, I mean pass rushers and aggressive defensive backs.

we've spent a 1st and 3rd in our last 3 drafts on safety's.... We couldn't need anymore....

[DomMcRaven]

Man, if people invested less time in crying about Pees and more into how we can improve our defensive personnel, we might actually have some intelligent discourse around here. Like really, Pees is here. Quit crying. Instead of grasping for straws, start talking about how the FO is moving forward: getting better players. I swear... Apparently maintaining leadership and replacing the players isn't a valid course of action....

 

And yes, what we need is better players. And by that, I mean pass rushers and aggressive defensive backs.

I really feel that this thread should be locked after this post. 

 

+35

[The Raven]

we've spent a 1st and 3rd in our last 3 drafts on safety's.... We couldn't need anymore....

 

I don't care what we've drafted. I care about how they've performed. They are not performing. Drafting is about the future, not the past.

[BmoreBird22]

Suggs is not that level player anymore. He is a great player but don't compare the guy the past couple years to Watt.

I didn't compare Suggs to Watt, just his impact on the defense to that of the impact Watt has on the Houston defense, as in they're a major driving force and leader of their defense.

And Suggs has the same impact for the Ravens

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Man, if people invested less time in crying about Pees and more into how we can improve our defensive personnel, we might actually have some intelligent discourse around here. Like really, Pees is here. Quit crying. Instead of grasping for straws, start talking about how the FO is moving forward: getting better players. I swear... Apparently maintaining leadership and replacing the players isn't a valid course of action....

And yes, what we need is better players. And by that, I mean pass rushers and aggressive defensive backs.

And apperantly criticizing the lack of talent there is me saying Pees must be fired.

+35

Edited January 9, 2016 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN

[arnie_uk]

I don't care what we've drafted. I care about how they've performed. They are not performing. Drafting is about the future, not the past.

tongue in cheek dig at Ozzie...

[52520Andrew]

I didn't compare Suggs to Watt, just his impact on the defense to that of the impact Watt has on the Houston defense, as in they're a major driving force and leader of their defense.

And Suggs has the same impact for the Ravens

I don't see Suggs get near the attention Watt gets from an O-line. No defensive player gets that much attention right now. You could make a case for leadership but Watt is not a bad leader for that team and is the face of that franchise like Suggs here arguably. If you took Watt away from Houston, I'd say that drop off is worse than the drop off of our defense without Suggs. It isn't good losing Suggs obviously but to liken it to the Texans losing Watt to me is going overboard.

[The Raven]

tongue in cheek dig at Ozzie...

 

Yeah, I would agree. Ozzie has failed to acquire pass rushers, on the edge and the interior. I think we'd be okay if we got someone other than Upshaw. I honestly think the Upshaw pick has set us back. He's not a good enough pass rusher. Not for a second round pick. 

 

As for defensive backs, I think Ozzie has picked the right guys, except for Trey Walker. Matt Elam and Terrence Brooks both should be better than they are. I loved both picks. I think the problem there is that we haven't adequately developed our young DBs, and I think that's partially due to a complex scheme that's really hard on safeties. 

[redrum52]

we've spent a 1st and 3rd in our last 3 drafts on safety's.... We couldn't need anymore....

Is that across the pond sarcasm?

[BmoreBird22]

I don't see Suggs get near the attention Watt gets from an O-line. No defensive player gets that much attention right now. You could make a case for leadership but Watt is not a bad leader for that team and is the face of that franchise like Suggs here arguably. If you took Watt away from Houston, I'd say that drop off is worse than the drop off of our defense without Suggs. It isn't good losing Suggs obviously but to liken it to the Texans losing Watt to me is going overboard.

Losing Suggs takes away the best edge setter, best pass rusher, a good coverage OLB, and the leader of the defense.

It forces Doom to be an every down linebacker and for Upshaw to be a pass rusher.

He's got a Watt like impact for the Ravens defense in how much he helps his teammates

[52520Andrew]

Just like Watt Suggs is a every down player which means he's doesn't have to come off the field unless for a breathier. He's not at Watt level that's for sure but Suggs can do it all from setting the edge to stop the run, he can cover, really intelligent,can get after the passer and overall a playmaker. When The Ravens lost Suggs it wasn't just losing a great player but actually losing their only every down outside linebacker which really hurt The Ravens bad.

Lots of players are every down players. Watt is an every down player. Watt is just as complete and a better pass rusher. He has gotten 20 sacks twice and just in case you are thinking he is just converting more of his pressures, his number of pressures has been far and away at the top. Also a big threat batting down passes and has a couple pick 6s to his credit like Suggs. Not as good in coverage as Suggs but he takes more of a role inside and the attention he gets from other teams is insane. As bad as losing Suggs is, I don't think him simply being there would have solved all our problems either. We have blown plenty of 4th quarter leads even with Suggs in the fold.

[52520Andrew]

Losing Suggs takes away the best edge setter, best pass rusher, a good coverage OLB, and the leader of the defense.

It forces Doom to be an every down linebacker and for Upshaw to be a pass rusher.

He's got a Watt like impact for the Ravens defense in how much he helps his teammates

Taking away Watt lets opposing O-lines put much more attention everywhere else. Clowney has been a good run defender but hasn't done too much rushing the passer yet and I'd take Doom over Mercilus in terms of pass rush. He is also the best edge setter and pass rusher and the drop off in pass rush would be much more severe. Houston also doesn't have any other big inside threat like we do with Jernigan and I value inside pass rushers more than outside guys. Our pass rush without Suggs is better than Houston's would be without Watt. Our run defense hasn't been bad this year.

[BmoreBird22]

Taking away Watt lets opposing O-lines put much more attention everywhere else. Clowney has been a good run defender but hasn't done too much rushing the passer yet and I'd take Doom over Mercilus in terms of pass rush. He is also the best edge setter and pass rusher and the drop off in pass rush would be much more severe. Houston also doesn't have any other big inside threat like we do with Jernigan and I value inside pass rushers more than outside guys. Our pass rush without Suggs is better than Houston's would be without Watt. Our run defense hasn't been bad this year.

Again, I'm not comparing the two. You are taking this in a way different direction.

Suggs is, according to Biscotti, the best defender on the Ravens, and arguably the best player. Watt is the best player on the Texans. Thomas on the Seahawks. Kuechly on the Panthers. Pick who you want, but I was saying it'd be like losing the best player on any defense because of the amount of shuffling and strain it puts on all other teammates.

I was not comparing the two, so I don't know why you insist on doing so.

[52520Andrew]

Again, I'm not comparing the two. You are taking this in a way different direction.

Suggs is, according to Biscotti, the best defender on the Ravens, and arguably the best player. Watt is the best player on the Texans. Thomas on the Seahawks. Kuechly on the Panthers. Pick who you want, but I was saying it'd be like losing the best player on any defense because of the amount of shuffling and strain it puts on all other teammates.

I was not comparing the two, so I don't know why you insist on doing so.

Just because someone is the best player on a team does not mean that their loss has just as much impact as anyone else who is the best player on their respective team.

[Inqui]

Yeah, I would agree. Ozzie has failed to acquire pass rushers, on the edge and the interior. I think we'd be okay if we got someone other than Upshaw. I honestly think the Upshaw pick has set us back. He's not a good enough pass rusher. Not for a second round pick. 

 

As for defensive backs, I think Ozzie has picked the right guys, except for Trey Walker. Matt Elam and Terrence Brooks both should be better than they are. I loved both picks. I think the problem there is that we haven't adequately developed our young DBs, and I think that's partially due to a complex scheme that's really hard on safeties. 

You're a brave soul. Not many people admit to having liked the Elam pick these days. But I agree that we haven't been nearly good enough at developing DBs lately. It's gotten to the point where I'd actually be dubious about us taking one early on in the draft this year.

[The Raven]

You're a brave soul. Not many people admit to having liked the Elam pick these days. But I agree that we haven't been nearly good enough at developing DBs lately. It's gotten to the point where I'd actually be dubious about us taking one early on in the draft this year.

 

Honesty shouldn't require bravery  Most people here were pretty stoked about the pick when it happened

 

It was a good pick, and it looked like this might have been the season he panned out. They do say that the third year is the big year for DBs, I think. It's a shame he got hurt. In his few bright moments, Elam looked like he had serious top ten potential. His game against the Detroit Lions stands out. I think our season might have looked a lot different if he were healthy.

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Raven

[jazz1988]

Just because someone is the best player on a team does not mean that their loss has just as much impact as anyone else who is the best player on their respective team.

 

That's true but Suggs is one of those guys The Ravens couldn't afford to lose. If Mcphee was still on the team it probably would have made losing Suggs less hurtful.Both Watt and Suggs are defensive play makers   along with being leaders of their team. Watt is clearly the better defensive player but a playmaker is a playmaker to me and Suggs is that.

 

Lots of players are every down players. Watt is an every down player. Watt is just as complete and a better pass rusher. He has gotten 20 sacks twice and just in case you are thinking he is just converting more of his pressures, his number of pressures has been far and away at the top. Also a big threat batting down passes and has a couple pick 6s to his credit like Suggs. Not as good in coverage as Suggs but he takes more of a role inside and the attention he gets from other teams is insane. As bad as losing Suggs is, I don't think him simply being there would have solved all our problems either. We have blown plenty of 4th quarter leads even with Suggs in the fold.

 

Yes there are lots of players that are every down players but can they do it all?  A younger Doom was a every down player but never was that good at setting the edge or that good at  covering... I have seen The Ravens owner and even film study from russellstreetreport.com take note of how big of a loss it was to lose Suggs and I feel like if Suggs was around it would have made a difference. 

 

I honestly don't remember alot of blown 4th quarterleads accept for this season  but even if that's true I can't deny that Suggs changes the game.I seen alot of games last year where the quarterback had enough time to sip tea and then throw the ball because The Ravens defenders weren't  providing any consistent pass rush. If Suggs was on the field I think it would have helped because a good pass rush  helps out a secondary alot and with him getting the attention that means some body eventually will  benefit from it.

[Militant X 1]

Man, if people invested less time in crying about Pees and more into how we can improve our defensive personnel, we might actually have some intelligent discourse around here. Like really, Pees is here. Quit crying. Instead of grasping for straws, start talking about how the FO is moving forward: getting better players. I swear... Apparently maintaining leadership and replacing the players isn't a valid course of action....

 

And yes, what we need is better players. And by that, I mean pass rushers and aggressive defensive backs.

 

I stated in another thread that it seems like I'm in the minority of feeling confident in our team moving forward after hearing the presser.  Bisciotti's insight for maintaining "continuity" on the team by not firing everybody just because of our losing season was actually refreshing.  I loved his approach in moving the Ravens forward.  That is one cool cat!

Edited January 9, 2016 by Militant X 1

[ravensdfan]

That's true but Suggs is one of those guys The Ravens couldn't afford to lose. If Mcphee was still on the team it probably would have made losing Suggs less hurtful.Both Watt and Suggs are defensive play makers   along with being leaders of their team. Watt is clearly the better defensive player but a playmaker is a playmaker to me and Suggs is that.

 

 

Yes there are lots of players that are every down players but can they do it all?  A younger Doom was a every down player but never was that good at setting the edge or that good at  covering... I have seen The Ravens owner and even film study from russellstreetreport.com take note of how big of a loss it was to lose Suggs and I feel like if Suggs was around it would have made a difference. 

 

I honestly don't remember alot of blown 4th quarterleads accept for this season  but even if that's true I can't deny that Suggs changes the game.I seen alot of games last year where the quarterback had enough time to sip tea and then throw the ball because The Ravens defenders weren't  providing any consistent pass rush. If Suggs was on the field I think it would have helped because a good pass rush  helps out a secondary alot and with him getting the attention that means some body eventually will  benefit from it.

2012: Washington, Cowboys, Eagles  We managed to win one of those games due to a missed FG but they are still 4th quarter leads the defense failed to maintain. I did not count the Pitt game since the tying TD came after a fumble that put Pitt at our 30 however one could argue that was a failure to hold them to 3 as well, Denver in the playoffs.

 

2013:  Cincy, Pitt (missed 2 pt conversion for the tie), Minnesota (twice blew the lead in the 4th), Detroit

 

2014: Cincy (twice) and then the debacle in NE in the playoffs. Oddly, the year everyone uses injuries as an excuse, was their best year at not giving up leads.

 

Not even going into this season. That's too depressing. We did not lose all the games they gave up those leads - but they still failed in the 4th quarter. There have been at least 3 or 4 this season as well though - as far as losses go. I am not sure if they gave up any leads where we won the game.

 

It is no coincidence that the year the defense gave up the least 4th quarter leads is the year the offense was the best it's ever been. If you go back and look at those games, we went into the 4th up two or three scores only to win by 3 pts in some games. They tried to give up those 4th quarter leads. A Pees led defense requires a potent offense to be successful. It can't be just good, average or slightly above average. It can't be ground and pound to run the clock out with a lead. It has to be a top tier offense that never lets up and keeps on scoring.

 

This year the offense simply was not good enough to overcome and pull out wins in the waning minutes of the game after the defense failed to hold the lead. Want to truly talk about a unit suffering from a lack of talent, offense is it, even before injuries to all but 2 of their starters. Why we went from winning a couple of those games with a 4th quarter defensive collapse to losing all of them this year.

Edited January 9, 2016 by ravensdfan

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I stated in another thread that it seems like I'm in the minority of feeling confident in our team moving forward after hearing the presser. Bisciotti's insight for maintaining "continuity" on the team by not firing everybody just because of our losing season was actually refreshing. I loved his approach in moving the Ravens forward. That is one cool cat!

I'm with you. Losing for a younger team is not a bad thing. It builds character. Whenever I did either competitive fighting, I would get my but handed to me, and learn what to do better next time. Taught me how to handle losing. Something a ton of these fans need to learn. Firing everyone is not going to solve anything at this point. There will probably be people (like in the scouting department maybe) that are terminated, but that's it. I personally think this season was a fluke. With more experience alone we will improve.

We took a hit this season. How we react will define us.

I think the future is bright.

[Inqui]

I'm with you. Losing for a younger team is not a bad thing. It builds character. Whenever I did either competitive fighting, I would get my but handed to me, and learn what to do better next time. Taught me how to handle losing. Something a ton of these fans need to learn. Firing everyone is not going to solve anything at this point. There will probably be people (like in the scouting department maybe) that are terminated, but that's it. I personally think this season was a fluke. With more experience alone we will improve.

We took a hit this season. How we react will define us.

I think the future is bright.

Hell, with luck alone we'll improve. We were part of 13 games that were decided by eight points or fewer. Even if we sit on our hands in the offseason, statistically we'll get closer to .500 in those games. Bill Barnwell's talked about this at length, and he'd have a field day with our preview for next season if ESPN didn't blow up Grantland (still pissed off about that).

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I'm gonna repeat this again. Because it's the truth.

The core on defense is there.

CJ

Jernigan

Williams

Dumervil

Jimmy

Hill

^^ All are positive contributors. The high level players on defense that are legit difference makers.

We have a a guy who could move up there. I think Carl Davis is someone who has that ceiling. And Brooks is historically good at developing Dlinemen. His only miss the last few years was Cody correct? And some guys are just hopeless anyway(just look up pictures of him without his shirt lol)..

We need better role players. A defense composed of 6 men is destined to fail. You have guys like Shareece Wright and Lawerence Guy,and Za'Darius but one of them doesn't even start. We don't know what Webb is going to do at FS but if he turns into a decent role player. That's one bird killed. Go get another corner. We need another situational pass rusher on the dline, an edge rusher, maybe go get another MLB or two.

Here's why we shouldn't fire Ozzie: He's had his misses sure. But he's done something smart. He built the defense from the middle out. He has yet to address the corner and edge rusher position with a higher draft pick.

But we built up the dline

Jernigan

Davis

Williams

Urban

Two have flashed and two have been very good picks.

We went and got a MLB who if he could cover better, would be a perennial all pro(he's just so good at everything else).

CJ. And went to get a raw player with a lot of potential in Za'Darius.

Add another edge rusher. Go get another dlinemen who can pin his ears back out there.

And go get another CB #2. Hopefully in FA.

And suddenly.. The defense is fixed! See. That wasn't that hard?

Like I said. Carolina's top end talent is a little better than ours.

Kechuely is probably the second best defensive player in the league. Both he and Davis are better players than CJ(but not by too much tbh). Short is a different player than Williams and a much better rusher. Norman is a better corner than Jimmy(but when healthy Jimmy isn't too far away). The FS is better than ours. But we have Jernigan who's above average in both facets of the job, and Dumervil who's utter crap as a run defender but as a pure pass rusher is one of the best in the league. He puts pressure on the QB like no one's business.

Carolina's is better. But both have extremely talented cores.

Carolina's defense is a great unit because their role players are good players.

They have other guys who can put pressure on the QB. Jared Allen, Charles Johnson(who was hurt. But is a good pass rusher), Dwan Edwards, Kony Ealy, Mario Addison. All can put pressure on the QB. Outside of Elvis, Jernigan, Guy, and ZDS. We don't have much. And only Elvis is the great one with Jernigan being slightly above average and ZDS being raw.

They also have guys who can defend the run well. Star L, AJ Klein, and Shaq Tomphson are all good players.

They have good players in the secondary to go along with Coleman and Norman. Charles Tillman, Roman Harper. Good players. Not fantastic, but good enough.

The role players are plentiful. And while a few of those guys are above average(Star L is an above average player, as is a healthy Charles Johnson), most of those guys are good but not great players.

We need role players. That's what I expect our FA signings to be on defense.

[BmoreBird22]

Just because someone is the best player on a team does not mean that their loss has just as much impact as anyone else who is the best player on their respective team.

Would it be a huge loss to lose Watt or Thomas? Yes.

Was it a huge loss to lose Suggs? Yes.

Wow, that was easy to understand

[arnie_uk]

Would it be a huge loss to lose Watt or Thomas? Yes.

Was it a huge loss to lose Suggs? Yes.

Wow, that was easy to understand

i agree with what he's saying on. Suggs is 32 with a achilles tear already, his loss, at this stage of his career shouldn't have that huge an impact.

It says more about our other talent or pees (whoever you blame) that the loss of effectively an "over the hill" player had that much of an impact on out defense.

Look at the offense, smith is out equivalent of Suggs. We didn't miss him anywhere near as much as youd say we did Suggs.

[52520Andrew]

Would it be a huge loss to lose Watt or Thomas? Yes.

Was it a huge loss to lose Suggs? Yes.

Wow, that was easy to understand

That is oversimplifying it quite a bit.

You can argue that Suggs is our best defender(although people said the same about Jimmy when he went down). He is one player though and to be frank, if that is the only significant injury we have on defense, I'd take it.

[BmoreBird22]

i agree with what he's saying on. Suggs is 32 with a achilles tear already, his loss, at this stage of his career shouldn't have that huge an impact.

It says more about our other talent or pees (whoever you blame) that the loss of effectively an "over the hill" player had that much of an impact on out defense.

Look at the offense, smith is out equivalent of Suggs. We didn't miss him anywhere near as much as youd say we did Suggs.

I'd definitely say Smith being out is not the equivalence of Suggs. If we believe what Biscotti said about being the most important player on the defense, it'd be the equivalence of Flacco, who I'd say they really missed with all the turnovers.

It doesn't surprise me it had that big of an impact as the best edge setter and pass rusher. The amount of reshuffling it required was huge

[rmw10]

I think the loss of Suggs hurt a lot more because of the fact that there was no backup plan.  Upshaw clearly wasn't going to alleviate that loss and Za'Darius wasn't there yet.  Late in the season when Za'Darius started to get hot, I'd venture to say that the loss of Suggs didn't hurt as much as it did early in the season when we could hardly get a pass rush.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

Pretty pissed Pees isnt going. Monashino should have gotten the job. We need fresh aggressive minds to elevate this unit, that coach from the sideline. We blew it

[K-Dog]

So we closed the Harbaugh thread. I vote we close this one too. Pees is staying. Some people hate that. Others don't mind that.

Not much else to say that has not already been said.