The Dean Pees Thread (merged)

[BmoreBird22]

15th would be very close to the definition of mediocre in a 32 teams league.

Still far better than 24th

[BmoreBird22]

If you consider 25 in the league in points good than they did well.  I would consider top 15th or better good.  

See my latest post

[BmoreBird22]

Fairly certain that points used for ranking defenses do NOT include any Pick 6's. Not sure about ST TDs but mostly defensive guys out there on ST too. So those points would be solely on the defense.

It includes all points, but you're really stretching hard to criticize the defense...

[BmoreBird22]

And everyone harping on the Bengals losses, look at the O's production.  How many games have they gone scoreless in the first half?  Couple that with turnovers and I don't know what you all expect.  The offense simply can't wait till late in a game to score and pull out wins.  There's a reason there are 60 minutes in a game and not just the last two.  You can't expect one side to do their job the whole game, then the other, to only have to work for a quarter.

This, so much. I wish I could like this infinite amounts of times. We hear a ton about how the defense needs to stop these fourth quarter collapses, and in some games, this is true, but why does the offense get an excuse for only doing their job for one quarter (the fourth)? If they played that way for the entire game, there wouldn't be a collapse.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

We had a better supporting cast offensively believe it or not. 

 

A good but not great oline. Also add Crockett to the list. He's a good TE. Maxx has flashed this year. Looked good especially for a rookie. Perriman will be a good deep threat at the very worst because he's fast and physical(and don't give me this he doesn't play at 4.2 speed. We know this. He plays at 4.3 or 4.4 speed. Still more than fast enough to be a deep threat). I mean. Defenses will have to respect his speed. Allen looks like a good receiving back. Aiken looked like a pretty decent WR this year. Even then Forsett wasn't BAD. Top that off with a very good Qb and you're gonna have a good offense. A decent run game with one or two options a QB can trust with options that have high ceilings to boot and not just flash but play some very good games(a few of these guys without Flacco mind you).

 

 

Yeah... Our offense kind of has a better supporting cast under a pretty good OC. It's not a sexy one. But the offense isn't the issue. What's holding our offense back from being elite is probably another WR. But even then. If you have a mediocre WR corps(which we do. Aiken is a high end #3. This season proved that. SSR will probably be a #2 next year, and I think Perriman's floor is Torrey), and a good with a potential to be great TE corps(which we do. Crockett looked very good this season, and Maxx Flashed more than once. And when we fed him the ball last week vs a good defense he delivered. Boyle also flashed), and a solid running game in place. You're gonna put up points. Which is what matters. Honestly. We keep the offense as is(and Maxx was deemed a safe pick for a reason. I think he's going to be BIG eventually). The emergence of Maxx and speed of Breshad will be added by default and all by itself will make the team better. 

 

The difference is. The defense needs multiple pieces to be truly fixed. The offense only needs one to go from good to great(ESPECIALLY if we retain KO. I think Urschel would be an adequate replacement though). They need another WR to eventually take over for Steve. We have our TEs there. Breshad is a weapon. We don't know what he is but at the worst he can run faster in a straight line than most NFL corners and based off his college tape is actually a physical player. We can run the ball. We're not great at it(and Trestman abandons it sometimes), but we can do it. And we have a franchise QB. 

 

Defensively is another story. We need a #2 CB, even a decent one just makes the defense that much better. A FS. See above. An edge rusher. See above. And a few more situation guys ON TOP OF a free safety. We lack (good)depth. And a defense without depth is going to suck regardless of who's coaching it.

 

That's a fact. Look at Carolina? Depth. Arizona? Depth? Cinci? Depth. Seattle during their SB runs? Too much depth. Patriots last year? Depth. Us during our SB? Depth everywhere except for the trenches. We were on a backup CB at the time with Jimmy and even he was injured at some point. 

 

 

So it's not really an excuse. It's a fact. The foundation on defense is better than the offense, but the offense has a worthy supporting cast. and well. While it isn't overly strong, isn't overly weak either. Defense outside of the core group, lacks decent players and depth. No DC can do good with that. 

 

It includes all points, but you're really stretching hard to criticize the Pees...

Fixed. I have my issues with Dean. But after really thinking about it and bringing up my points. He's not to blame for this season. Cam was to blame for his. Boldin and Torrey were good WRs with a decent oline, a star RB with Rice and the best FB in the NFL paving the way for him, and a very good TE in Pitta. If Trestman was in control of that offense we'd have a top 5 unit in all likelihood and most of us know that. And the only elite player on that team was Ray Rice. He and Flacco(along with Boldin) were the core guys. Just the other contributors were above average and we had some decent depth. 

[allblackraven]

Still far better than 24th

Sure is but still not good enough. We are used to much better.

[BmoreBird22]

Sure is but still not good enough. We are used to much better.

To be fair, over the final eight games, they were at around 19 PPG, which would rank 6th.

[BmoreBird22]

Why are people so quick to dismiss the loss of Suggs as if it's small? Today, Biscotti called Suggs the most important player on the defense. Does that not mean anything to anyone?

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Why are people so quick to dismiss the loss of Suggs as if it's small? Today, Biscotti called Suggs the most important player on the defense. Does that not mean anything to anyone?

Exactly! Suggs was easily the best player on the defense and is a hall of fame caliber talent. Saying otherwise is stupid. With him you can do so much cause of his versatility. Disguise pressures and so on. Makes life a living hell for the QB because it truly makes you unpredictable. 

[BmoreBird22]

Exactly! Suggs was easily the best player on the defense and is a hall of fame caliber talent. Saying otherwise is stupid. With him you can do so much cause of his versatility. Disguise pressures and so on. Makes life a living hell for the QB because it truly makes you unpredictable. 

And one defensive player (followed by supporting players, like Ngata, McPhee) can absolutely make a difference.

After losing Suh (and Fairley), the heralded Austin's defense went from being ranked 2nd to 18th, gave up a full touchdown more per game and 60 more yards per game. It would be like the Seahawks losing Thomas, the Texans losing Watt, 

[Tru11]

Sure is but still not good enough. We are used to much better.

 

we used to have better players.

 

its only naturel that we where better.

 

we used to be worse on offense when we had boller and now we are better with flacco.

 

its crazy how some of you try to diminish the greatness guys like ray and ed brought us through the years.

ngata as well.

you can even add suggs to that list although he is still around.

 

those guys are once in a decades talents.

 

we have nobody that comes close to them and quite frankly we might never get guys who where on their level.

 

its very unreasonable to expect guys like kendrick lewis , orr, mosley and such to make an impact like ed and ray did.

heck as good as brandon williams is , he aint even close to how good ngata was.

 

im really sorry but a lot of you have no respect for Ed and Ray and what they did for us.

 

blaming pees cause kendrick lewis cant play single high safety as good as ed reed did , is just idiotic to me TBH

heck blaming pees cause mosley cant cover a TE or RB like ray did is down right hilarious.

or jernigan not being the player ngata was.

or upshaw/smith not being the player suggs is.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tru11

[Tru11]

look at his patriots playoff losses... He called a predictable and cautious secondary game plan and lost the same exact way we always lose. He has been doing it for years on different teams, and he tried to cough up the SB for us by calling a play that was proven to be a failure and Ray and ellerbe luckily perfected the blitz and kaepernick obviously can't throw a touch pass so we escaped despite pees. Obviously the talent is deserving of some blame, But he actually has been the common denominator in the ravens and patriots big game melt downs recently.

 

you guys do know our starting corners where a banged up Webb, a ps player in melvin and a SS in elam right ?

 

im quite intrested to see how most of you would call the defense working against a pats team that ran empy sets alot lol.

 

gronk , edelman , amendola,lafell and vereen against  webb , melvin , elam , stewart, hill, mosley and daryl smith.

then you have HOF Brady throwing  the ball.

 

i really dont see what we could have done differently TBH.

 

every match up would be a mis match in favour of the pats no matter how you wanna pair them lol.

 

playing zone and hoping the guys could tackle seemed like the most realistic option for having any succes.

 

even the hawks had trouble stopping them once they lost  1 of their starting CBs....

[BmoreBird22]

look at his patriots playoff losses... He called a predictable and cautious secondary game plan and lost the same exact way we always lose. He has been doing it for years on different teams, and he tried to cough up the SB for us by calling a play that was proven to be a failure and Ray and ellerbe luckily perfected the blitz and kaepernick obviously can't throw a touch pass so we escaped despite pees. Obviously the talent is deserving of some blame, But he actually has been the common denominator in the ravens and patriots big game melt downs recently.

Hold on, hold on, hold on...

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how terrible this post is.

First you criticize him for being too cautious, but then say he was dumb for calling an all out blitz that never works, but then praise the players for doing their job and blitzing correctly on the all out blitz, but then say the play worked because the quarterback can't throw a touch pass...?

 

What in the hell...

[BmoreBird22]

you guys do know our starting corners where a banged up Webb, a ps player in melvin and a SS in elam right ?

 

im quite intrested to see how most of you would call the defense working against a pats team that ran empy sets alot lot

Help me figure out the above quoted post. You're usually pretty good with posts

[arnie_uk]

Hey, just throwing this out there, but the 25 points per game allowed is flawed as a stat. I added up all the scores and averaged out and it's 25, which includes any pick six and points off turnover from fumbles.

Accounting for all points off of turnovers moves them up to about 15th, and that's only accounting for four defensive touchdowns that I remember (Talib, Jax, Peters, Schaub)

did you do that for the other 31 teams as well?

[BmoreBird22]

did you do that for the other 31 teams as well?

I don't have time to look up every single game for every single team, and I'm sure it'd make a difference, but the Ravens had a drastically bad turnover ratio, so I'm not sure it'd be as big of a difference

[arnie_uk]

All I'm getting from this argument is ozOe needs to be fired. We spent all those high draft picks, back to back years 1st 2nd and 3rd on our defense when our offense sucked.

If lack of talent is the reason, or the loss of one over 30 year old player is the reason we sucked and not our coaching, we then, with the investment our defense has had, our talent evaluators, Ozzie, De Costa, scouts etc need to go.

The defense isn't good enough for the investment it's received and no matter who is to blame, I think everyone could agree on that!

[arnie_uk]

I don't have time to look up every single game for every single team, and I'm sure it'd make a difference, but the Ravens had a drastically bad turnover ratio, so I'm not sure it'd be as big of a difference

it's not a correct comparison to bump us up to 15 without doing it for the other teams. Apples to oranges comparison. For all our turnovers I can't remember many pick 6s uni matty pick 6s couple, but you see them all the time on nfl redzone.

Other teams have the same problem, and I don't recall any special team scores against us.

[allblackraven]

we used to have better players.

 

its only naturel that we where better.

 

we used to be worse on offense when we had boller and now we are better with flacco.

 

its crazy how some of you try to diminish the greatness guys like ray and ed brought us through the years.

ngata as well.

you can even add suggs to that list although he is still around.

 

those guys are once in a decades talents.

 

we have nobody that comes close to them and quite frankly we might never get guys who where on their level.

 

its very unreasonable to expect guys like kendrick lewis , orr, mosley and such to make an impact like ed and ray did.

heck as good as brandon williams is , he aint even close to how good ngata was.

 

im really sorry but a lot of you have no respect for Ed and Ray and what they did for us.

 

blaming pees cause kendrick lewis cant play single high safety as good as ed reed did , is just idiotic to me TBH

heck blaming pees cause mosley cant cover a TE or RB like ray did is down right hilarious.

or jernigan not being the player ngata was.

or upshaw/smith not being the player suggs is.

 

Now, that's really rich.

 

BTW, I personally think that Ray and Ed coached our defensive players on the field and in film room more than Pees ever did. Audibled his scheme quite a lot, too.

[Tru11]

Help me figure out the above quoted post. You're usually pretty good with posts

 

you mean what i said or what joeflex said?

 

its early here so im not that awake yet lol.

 

i think you covered it pretty well though cause i was thinking the same in regards to what joe said.

 

TBH i dont think it really matters what pees does , its always going to be wrong in most people eyes.

heck he could follow their suggestions into detail and they would still say he was wrong ....

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

you guys do know our starting corners where a banged up Webb, a ps player in melvin and a SS in elam right ?

 

im quite intrested to see how most of you would call the defense working against a pats team that ran empy sets alot lol.

 

gronk , edelman , amendola,lafell and vereen against  webb , melvin , elam , stewart, hill, mosley and daryl smith.

then you have HOF Brady throwing  the ball.

 

i really dont see what we could have done differently TBH.

 

every match up would be a mis match in favour of the pats no matter how you wanna pair them lol.

 

playing zone and hoping the guys could tackle seemed like the most realistic option for having any succes.

 

even the hawks had trouble stopping them once they lost  1 of their starting CBs....

This... Plus 100. 

Sorry. With Jimmy it's a different ballgame. But even then the outcome is just unpredictable. You have Gronk. Literally no one can cover him. 

 

Just no. That's not on Pees at all. 

[Tru11]

Now, that's really rich.

 

BTW, I personally think that Ray and Ed coached our defensive players on the field and in film room more than Pees ever did. Audibled his scheme quite a lot, too.

 

Upshaw did that in 2012 once ray went down and he kept doing that through the play offs.

Ray was actually the 1 who mentioned this.

 

Also how can you audible out of scheme?

never heard that before.

 

BTW im pretty sure Ed and Ray made adjustments through their entire career here.

Not to mention  they have been coaching and hitting the film room for that same period as well.

 

not quite sure why you are singling out Pees here.

 

im quite sure every DC they played for benefited from that lol

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

All I'm getting from this argument is Ozzie needs to be fired. We spent all those high draft picks, back to back years 1st 2nd and 3rd on our defense when our offense sucked.

If lack of talent is the reason, or the loss of one over 30 year old player is the reason we sucked and not our coaching, we then, with the investment our defense has had, our talent evaluators, Ozzie, De Costa, scouts etc need to go.

The defense isn't good enough for the investment it's received and no matter who is to blame, I think everyone could agree on that!

I wouldn't go that far but I agree he deserves most of the blame. Ozzie took the temporary route in 2014. Picking up Daniels SSR and Forsett. With Kubiak that worked. Hell, the offense wasn't the issue this season either. And in 2014 you get two higher level players in CJ, and Jernigan, and one in Brandon Williams the year before. It wasn't like he didn't occasionally hit gold. 

 

Firing him would be extreme. Cause he still has his hits and even last year he put together a pretty good draft(as it stands right now from who've we've seen. All except Myers and Tray who have played have flashed at some point) to help out both sides. Perriman has a high ceiling and a higher floor than most people give him credit for after watching a lot of his tape. Maxx has flashed THIS YEAR(am yelling for emphasis. Not anger reasons). And our rookie class for the most part was one of the few positives this year tbh. We had a few good contributions here and there. 

 

Also. This team isn't really that hard of a fix. Combine that injury with the already loss of Ngata, McPhee(both in which we drafted replacements for to develop), and the pre-season injuries of CJ coming off of surgery, and Jernigan. Yeah. It's a perfect storm of  crap. It's not a hard fix though. One #2 corner(he doesn't even have to be great), an edge rusher, and just getting healthy all around.. That'll go a long way. That might actually make it better. Guys like ZDS and Davis will be more experienced in games, and might have big contributions. Jimmy will be healthy again after a tough injury and players with a Lisfranc have been known to bounce back a season afterwards. Guys like CJ, Jernigan, and Williams still have room to grow. I'm giving the supporting cast crap, but there is also a lot of potential here in the core. Guys like Davis and ZDS have the potential to move up there. They just need more development. 

 

If the defense is bad again next year(something I doubt tbh. I don't think it'll be great but I think it should be good enough), then Pees will be fired. They'll get rid of him before they do so with Ozzie. One has a proven track record and has drafted some major home runs. Pees has fielded some good but not great defenses. 

[Tru11]

This... Plus 100. 

Sorry. With Jimmy it's a different ballgame. But even then the outcome is just unpredictable. You have Gronk. Literally no one can cover him. 

 

Just no. That's not on Pees at all. 

 

yup gronk had to be double covered.

 

jimmy takes away 1 receiver.

 

thats 3 guys on 2 players.

 

that leaves 4 guys to cover 3 other players which means at least 2 would be in single coverage.

 

jimmy would have been on lafell.

hill and mosley on gronk.

 

that leaves webb, stewart, smith and melvin/elam on vereen edelman and amendola.

 

still see quite a few favorable match ups for the pats to exploit tbh.

 

they picked on melvin a lot , so i would expect them to do the same even if jimmy was there and if its not melvin it would have been elam lol

Edited January 8, 2016 by Tru11

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

My point is that bad seasons happen. They just do.

I mean. It's a perfect storm.

Before the season: You lose Ngata, McPhee, Torrey.

Jimmy was injured with a horrid injury

CJ had offseason surgery

Jernigan hurt in the preseason

Eugene goes down one of the first snaps of the year.

First, your best defensive player goes down. It's hard to find a replacement for him. This makes everyone's life harder. The secondary gets no favors. Pass rush decreased.

Trade for Will Davis. Gets hurt quickly afterwards after looking good.

Crocket gets a lingering injury

SSR gets his first injury

They put Camp on IR because the Perriman situation

Then SSR goes down for real

Then we finally put Perriman on IR

Forsett goes down

Flacco goes down

Eugene goes down for real

So on and so forth. It's really just a perfect storm. And might I remind everyone, even without Suggs(even vs good teams). We were one score away until Flacco went down.

I dare you to tell me this team isn't fixable. The high draft pick is a blessing in disguise. You add more talent on the defense, we'll win a lot more games and not blow as many leads. Especially with an easier schedule

Edited January 8, 2016 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN

[BmoreBird22]

it's not a correct comparison to bump us up to 15 without doing it for the other teams. Apples to oranges comparison. For all our turnovers I can't remember many pick 6s uni matty pick 6s couple, but you see them all the time on nfl redzone.

Other teams have the same problem, and I don't recall any special team scores against us.

No, it's probably not fair to say 15th just flat out, but the chances of other teams have four defensive touchdowns scored against them is low. Some teams never even scored a defensive touchdown all season.

[BmoreBird22]

you mean what i said or what joeflex said?

 

its early here so im not that awake yet lol.

 

i think you covered it pretty well though cause i was thinking the same in regards to what joe said.

 

TBH i dont think it really matters what pees does , its always going to be wrong in most people eyes.

heck he could follow their suggestions into detail and they would still say he was wrong ....

I meant what joeyflex said because that post went in every single direction to discredit Pees and just shows the absolute asinine efforts people will go to. They will crucify him at all costs, even if it means contradicting themselves 17 times in one post.

[Tru11]

I meant what joeyflex said because that post went in every single direction to discredit Pees and just shows the absolute asinine efforts people will go to. They will crucify him at all costs, even if it means contradicting themselves 17 times in one post.

 

true true lol.

 

i just picked 1 part and went with that.

 

would have been 1 long reply i had to go with each and everything he said ......

[JoeyFlex5]

Hold on, hold on, hold on...

I'm trying to wrap my head around how terrible this post is.

First you criticize him for being too cautious, but then say he was dumb for calling an all out blitz that never works, but then praise the players for doing their job and blitzing correctly on the all out blitz, but then say the play worked because the quarterback can't throw a touch pass...?

What in the hell...

I've never criticized what he does with the front seven. I have always praised his ability to coordinate the front seven, when I say cautious I don't mean an all coverage scheme, I mean his secondary schemes are predictable, and we have seen it play out over and over when any decent OC figures out what we do without adjustment. The 4th down play in the super bowl, if I'm not mistaken was the same exact play call that burress got an easy game winning td in the 07 super bowl, and pees calls a play that has been seen and beaten in the same exact situation... And here's the crazy part, the niners tried the same tactic of a corner lob to the big wr in single coverage, with a qb who had any throwing mechanics whatsoever, we could have been in big trouble. My point is, pees always has, and always will, be very predictable with his scheme for the secondary. Not my fault you took it at face value and didn't bother to understand the context. We call the guy predictable, show a late 4th quarter red zone play call that lost them a super bowl, then evidence of him calling the same play in the same exact situation years later, we see the opposing offense call the same play to counter it, and you still try to argue that he isn't predictable? Anyways... Look at every playoff loss pees was the DC in, 45th quarter meltdowns, 2 fraanchises since 07, and I believe 5 different losses, 2 of them were absolutely absurd 4th quarter melt downs and one was a melt down as well that we managed to escape, another was 2 meltdowns in one game although it could be blamed on talent, so that leaves 4 out of 5 playoff losses are end of the game meltdowns and you still put all of the blame on the talent and deny evidence of his predictability? Guess there's no more discussion to be had then.. Edited January 8, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[Tru11]

No, it's probably not fair to say 15th just flat out, but the chances of other teams have four defensive touchdowns scored against them is low. Some teams never even scored a defensive touchdown all season.

 

we actually had 5 turnovers go for points against us.

 

1 broncos

1 dolphins

1 browns and 2 chiefs.

 

that does not consider turnovers that had the opponent in scoring position already or just weird calls by the HC like the Punt that turned it over on down in our own redzone or turning it over on downs on our side of the field.

 

i mean we could have a turnover , force a 3 and out and the opponent would still have a chip shot FG lel.

 

our 28 turnovers where tied for 8th worst in the league...