The Dean Pees Thread (merged)

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

We're missing the playoffs because we're keeping Pees?

Excuse me?

I'm sorry. I've read some infuriating stuff on here. But what in the hell?

Cam Cameron.. WHO WAS WORSE was here for five years. Each year we made the playoffs. Cam had no defenders. Pees has his for a reason. Because he's not the entirety of the issue. It's obvious.

Defense in 2013, and 2014 was good. Not aggressive sure. But he wasn't the reason for our downfall either season. 2013? Bad oline. Only reason we missed the playoffs. Offense SUCKED that season. Defense was on the field a ton.

2014? Injuries in the secondary. Again.. MELVIN was a starter there with Matt Elam.

2015? Lack of talent on the defense. Elvis Dumervil was the only capable pass rusher. Ozzie is more to blame for this season. Much as I love Ozzie, he's had a few whiffs.

Elam

Brown

Simon

Brooks(by the looks of it)

Not addressing a corner at all.

(But to the people who say he needs to be fired...

CJ

Williams

Mosely

ZDS

Davis

Urban.

More hits than misses)

But out of those three, only two of them are great. Three of them have star potential(CJ and Williams have both reached that caliber of player. Jernigan has it. Hasn't gotten there even though he's good).

I think Pees has problems. I hate passive defense. But he's not the issue here. The defense did turn around towards the end of the season.

Saying our future season is DOOMED?

This fan base is beyond spoiled. It's part of Dean's fault. But he doesn't get the majority of the blame let alone all of it

[gtalk12]

We just aren't healthy, and we MISSED big time with that knuckle head Rolando McClain....imagine if he would have kept clean? Here? with CJ? smh

 

It happens, on top of that we lost alot of guys who under Pees system did very well with Paul Kruger, Ngata, Pernell, and Ellerbe.

 

This defense would be MUCH different with 2 of those guys on this team. ANY 2 guys, and with healthy corners we wouldn't be having this conversation. Webb and Smith could have been a top duo for a while, but injuries have not let that happen unfortunetly and even with all these loses we've managed to stay in games.

 

 

I get it, we want that hard hitting put a HAT ON YOU defense....well the league doesn't really allow it, and to play like that now you need playmakers, see the Cardinals and Seahawks....it is what it is, we just have been too good for our own good. Players are leaving for more money

[Willbacker]

Also, to be fair, I believe Pees resigned.

This could also be a nice way of getting fired w/o egg on the face.

[Purple Punishment]

I'm shocked to hear DeCosta has been drafting. We have pick 6. Ozzie needs to handle this draft.

[ravensdfan]

Metrics are the only thing which you will judge a team or player by?  First mistake.  Also lost one of our best run stoppers in JJ.

 

The defense was good in 13 whether you'd like to admit it or not.

 

My point on the SB was both sides sucked after the blackout.

 

No, they shouldn't wait til the last 7 games, but I don't hear the Flacco fan club complaining about having to wait till the playoffs for him to get his mind right.

 

Good point.  Who have our  safeties been since 12?  How much continuity there?  Where have the biggest lapses come on defense?  You realize they usually make the calls and get the secondary in order, right?  You can't blame Pees, when our rush gets no pressure, the secondary falls giving up a td or just flat out blows a coverage.

 

I heard about Flacco's contusion in 09 when he was brown, water, trash in the 09 playoffs.  Same thing with his knee at the end of the 13 season.  Then Jimmy comes back from a lisfranc injury, in a position where you actually need to be mobile, people toss that away as a valid argument. 

 

 

Have any of you actually watched Shareece Wright before he got here?

Not tossing that away as an argument for Jimmy's play. But why are you always trying to distract by talking about the offense in threads that are clearly about the defense? When you were griping about the offense in 2013, they were called excuses weren't they? And no mention of a defense giving up a gazillion yards and leaving the offense with crappy field position time after time after time. Or failing to get off the field for an entire game. Or giving up 9 minute drives that eat up all the clock. Discuss the defense and stop using the offense to distract.

 

You said great, now you've downgraded to good. Not sure good even describes their overall performance in 2013.

 

Not just using metrics, but they do factor into the evaluation after four seasons.

 

Doesn't the Ravens' offense and defense play for the same team?  Aren't they both good sometimes and also bad sometimes?  

 

All I can say is, damn.     lol

Yes but please tell me why all the Pees' defenders speak about the offense while we are discussing defense but never vice versa? When they wanted to gripe about our offensive woes in 2013, it was never about all the yards the defense gave up and how our field position was garbage was it? Nor how the defense was tired because they were giving up 8 and 9 minute drives and never getting off the field - nope, it was the offense's fault. How injuries were to blame in 2014 for the defense but now they want to blame the offense for this year when the offense was decimated by injuries. It is the biased attitude that ticks me off.

 

You like mediocre and Pees? Your choice.

 

But don't act like it is great when it isn't. Call it for what it is and that in order to compete the offense must be capable of dropping 30 pts a game or more. That is what a Pees defense is period. Only effective with a high octane offense. Don't ignore how the defense got 8 of the last 10 top picks. Don't ignore how they got even more in FA. And don't play cap numbers when you know we just released the biggest cap hit on defense the beginning of this season and another restructured already.

Edited January 8, 2016 by ravensdfan

[rafahash]

This could also be a nice way of getting fired w/o egg on the face.

 

I think his contract was up and New England simply didn't offer him a new one.

[GrimCoconut]

Also, to be fair, I believe Pees resigned.

I'm pretty sure his contract expired and he and the Patriots mutually parted ways. I do recall his contract expiring, though.

[redrum52]

Not tossing that away as an argument for Jimmy's play. But why are you always trying to distract by talking about the offense in threads that are clearly about the defense? When you were griping about the offense in 2013, they were called excuses weren't they? And no mention of a defense giving up a gazillion yards and leaving the offense with crappy field position time after time after time. Or failing to get off the field for an entire game. Or giving up 9 minute drives that eat up all the clock. Discuss the defense and stop using the offense to distract.

 

You said great, now you've downgraded to good. Not sure good even describes their overall performance in 2013.

 

Not just using metrics, but they do factor into the evaluation after four seasons.

 

Yes but please tell me why all the Pees' defenders speak about the offense while we are discussing defense but never vice versa? When they wanted to gripe about our offensive woes in 2013, it was never about all the yards the defense gave up and how our field position was garbage was it? Nor how the defense was tired because they were giving up 8 and 9 minute drives and never getting off the field - nope, it was the offense's fault. How injuries were to blame in 2014 for the defense but now they want to blame the offense for this year when the offense was decimated by injuries. It is the biased attitude that ticks me off.

 

You like mediocre and Pees? Your choice.

 

But don't act like it is great when it isn't. Call it for what it is and that in order to compete the offense must be capable of dropping 30 pts a game or more. That is what a Pees defense is period. Only effective with a high octane offense. Don't ignore how the defense got 8 of the last 10 top picks. Don't ignore how they got even more in FA. And don't play cap numbers when you know we just released the biggest cap hit on defense the beginning of this season and another restructured already.

 

 

I bring them up because they go hand in hand.  If the defense gives up points, the offense is forced to change their approach, just as if the offense isn't scoring, the defense must play different.  If a team builds a big lead, the other team is usually forced into passing situations, which changes how you would attack them.

 

And I didn't mean to downgrade anything.  If the 14 offense played with the 13 defense, I'd place a good amount of money they'd win the SB, in either of those years.  This conversation is pointless.  You didn't see it then, don't see it now and probably never will.  I'm back in lurk mode...

[GrimCoconut]

Why do people think Harbaugh will be fired because Pees is still here? Why do we automatically infer that's solely a Harbaugh decision? I honestly don't think the decision to keep Dean Pees fell at Harbaugh's feet but was a mutual decision of the triumvirate.

I think Harbaugh sticks around even if the defense is garbage next year. The only way he'll get fired is if he loses the locker room.

[edthehead]

I'm pretty sure his contract expired and he and the Patriots mutually parted ways. I do recall his contract expiring, though.

when is his contract due to expire here in Baltimore,

[ravensdfan]

We're missing the playoffs because we're keeping Pees?

Excuse me?

I'm sorry. I've read some infuriating stuff on here. But what in the hell?

Cam Cameron.. WHO WAS WORSE was here for five years. Each year we made the playoffs. Cam had no defenders. Pees has his for a reason. Because he's not the entirety of the issue. It's obvious.

Defense in 2013, and 2014 was good. Not aggressive sure. But he wasn't the reason for our downfall either season. 2013? Bad oline. Only reason we missed the playoffs. Offense SUCKED that season. Defense was on the field a ton.

2014? Injuries in the secondary. Again.. MELVIN was a starter there with Matt Elam.

2015? Lack of talent on the defense. Elvis Dumervil was the only capable pass rusher. Ozzie is more to blame for this season. Much as I love Ozzie, he's had a few whiffs.

Elam

Brown

Simon

Brooks(by the looks of it)

Not addressing a corner at all.

(But to the people who say he needs to be fired...

CJ

Williams

Mosely

ZDS

Davis

Urban.

More hits than misses)

But out of those three, only two of them are great. Three of them have star potential(CJ and Williams have both reached that caliber of player. Jernigan has it. Hasn't gotten there even though he's good).

I think Pees has problems. I hate passive defense. But he's not the issue here. The defense did turn around towards the end of the season.

Saying our future season is DOOMED?

This fan base is beyond spoiled. It's part of Dean's fault. But he doesn't get the majority of the blame let alone all of it

Cam had his defenders at the time as well.

 

TOP does not back up that the defense was on the field a ton. That was just the excuse. And TOP is what it is. It's not worth looking up all of them, but that one Steelers game the defense failed to get off the field more than twice and gave up a 9 minute drive and an 8 minute drive, in addition to a bunch of six minute drives. Not exactly the offense's fault. That wasn't the only game like that in 2013 either.

 

He runs scared in the 4th. Traditionally and even while with NE. Check his playoff history with NE. 4th quarter fails there as well. In order for Pees' brand of defense to be successful, you better be dropping 30 to 40 pts a game. But we ignore offense with the high draft picks, outside of this one draft in the last 5 years, give all the love to the defense and then make excuses when they are average or worse.

 

It also isn't just about keeping Mr. Mediocre around. It is what we lose while doing so. First Austin and now Monachino. Do we lose Brooks next year?

Edited January 8, 2016 by ravensdfan

[GrimCoconut]

when is his contract due to expire here in Baltimore,

 

Couldn't resist.

[Tank 92]

I bring them up because they go hand in hand.  If the defense gives up points, the offense is forced to change their approach, just as if the offense isn't scoring, the defense must play different.  If a team builds a big lead, the other team is usually forced into passing situations, which changes how you would attack them.

 

And I didn't mean to downgrade anything.  If the 14 offense played with the 13 defense, I'd place a good amount of money they'd win the SB, in either of those years.  This conversation is pointless.  You didn't see it then, don't see it now and probably never will.  I'm back in lurk mode...

 

I'm not going to debate any of this, but will say the 13 offense was the worst in the history of the NFL(OK, maybe a bit of an exaggeration) so it's hard to gauge how good the D was. The O line was porous and RR was somewhere in la la land. But I will also say some of the defensive collapses that year were damning. And Webb...........well never mind.  lol 

[allblackraven]

when is his contract due to expire here in Baltimore,

He will be here forever

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

No attempt to a-pees the fans, clearly. 

 

[Tank 92]

No attempt to a-pees the fans, clearly. 

 

 

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

 

Sorry, that was dreadful. Lol

[edthehead]

 

Couldn't resist.

too funny,

[edthehead]

No attempt to a-pees the fans, clearly. 

 

wrong,,,

 they did a'pees us, cause he is back  

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Cam had his defenders at the time as well.

TOP does not back up that the defense was on the field a ton. That was just the excuse. And TOP is what it is. It's not worth looking up all of them, but that one Steelers game the defense failed to get off the field more than twice and gave up a 9 minute drive and an 8 minute drive, in addition to a bunch of six minute drives. Not exactly the offense's fault. That wasn't the only game like that in 2013 either.

He runs scared in the 4th. Traditionally and even while with NE. Check his playoff history with NE. 4th quarter fails there as well. In order for Pees' brand of defense to be successful, you better be dropping 30 to 40 pts a game. But we ignore offense with the high draft picks, outside of this one draft in the last 5 years, give all the love to the defense and then make excuses when they are average or worse.

It also isn't just about keeping Mr. Mediocre around. It is what we lose while doing so. First Austin and now Monachino. Do we lose Brooks next year?

What high draft picks? Seriously? Only one we've had up to this point is CJ? And sure. We spend first rounders on them but no success?

Kindle

Cody

Elam

Brown

Simon

All of them sucked. Sorry. Not Pees' fault. They were just back picks. If they're bad players, what is Pees going to do to them? Just saying.

And no. If the oline played like an NFL oline in 2013, we would have made the playoffs. Sorry. It's true. We couldn't get a run game going that year. That leads to failure on the offense. TOP whatever. That offense did our defense no favors. Sorry. If you can't accept that whatever. It's true though.

2014 we have Jimmy combined with that pass rush and Webb. The ballgame is different. Sorry. Again true. Now that Pats team was good and I honestly don't know if we would have won. But there's others.

And I admit many a time Pees has his flaws. He's not an amazing coordinator. But there's a reason there's a fair amount of us who don't want him gone. Much more than Cam ever had.

Sorry. Most of it is the lack of talent. We could spend all of the first round picks in the world on defense. If we miss out on all of them and draft busts, nothing we can do. That's honestly the biggest reason we're suffering right now. We've missed a few picks. Not Dean. If we had hit on every pick. I'd agree with you. And so would everyone else.

Edited January 8, 2016 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN

[ravensdfan]

What high draft picks? Seriously? Only one we've had up to this point is CJ? And sure. We spend first rounders on them but no success?

Kindle

Cody

Elam

Brown

Simon

All of them sucked. Sorry. Not Pees' fault. They were just back picks. If they're bad players, what is Pees going to do to them? Just saying.

And no. If the oline played like an NFL oline in 2013, we would have made the playoffs. Sorry. It's true. We couldn't get a run game going that year. That leads to failure on the offense. TOP whatever. That offense did our defense no favors. Sorry. If you can't accept that whatever. It's true though.

2014 we have Jimmy combined with that pass rush and Webb. The ballgame is different. Sorry. Again true. Now that Pats team was good and I honestly don't know if we would have won. But there's others.

And I admit many a time Pees has his flaws. He's not an amazing coordinator. But there's a reason there's a fair amount of us who don't want him gone. Much more than Cam ever had.

Sorry. Most of it is the lack of talent. We could spend all of the first round picks in the world on defense. If we miss out on all of them and draft busts, nothing we can do. That's honestly the biggest reason we're suffering right now. We've missed a few picks. Not Dean. If we had hit on every pick. I'd agree with you. And so would everyone else.

You're never going to hit on every pick. A coordinator who must have a roster filled with star players isn't much of a coordinator. So it's talent but the other argument is how great we were the 2nd half of the season? I mean, which is it? It can't be both. Even if the argument is young talent, that means we didn't miss in the draft right? It doesn't work both ways.

 

No you said the defense was on the field a ton. Your words, not mine. TOP is what it is, and they were not on the field a ton. It was evenly split. That is just fact. Not saying the offense did them any favors nor that it was great or perfect. Just that the excuse you gave for their 4th quarter failures doesn't exist in the real world. Nor were their failures to get off the field limited to the 4th quarter. Are they tired in the first quarter? The 2nd? That was the point.

 

It's all good. Heard this song & dance last year. Predicted this dismal defensive showing for this season as well. Hopefully, we're all not right back here hearing the same old excuses for the same old failures on defense this time next year.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Have you ever heard the expression about "beating a dead horse"? We've got it! You don't like Dean Pees and wish someone else was our DC. Well, its time for you to build a bridge and get over it. Coach Pees did a superb job coaching a defense that lost its premier player in the first game and had no (as in zero) shutdown corners for the first eight games. In all but two of our 16 games we were competitive despite having backup QBs in the last six games. My two biggest concerns about Coach Pees are: 1. I like DCs & OCs on the field instead of in the booth and 2. His defenders are way too undisciplined, resulting in far too many silly and costly penalties. That being said, my first concern gets down to a preference and is within the Head Coach's purview to change where his DC is during the games. My second concern could be easily resolved by the Head Coach. So, maybe we should just hire Greg Manusky who was fired by the Indianapolis Bolts after they finished 8-8? Frankly, I'm glad the Bolts took our LB coach. With the possible exception of Moseley, our linebacker play was not that stellar this year after losing T-Sizzle. Our longstanding record of consecutive games holding the opposition to less than 100 yards rushing ended this year.  Once he became convinced that we lacked the team speed to play man defense and started to play more zone defense in the second half, our defense improved with the exception of two games. That's a personnel problem, not a coaching problem. One of our top two offseason challenges was to fix our secondary. The FO didn't.

[Guest]

I also don't believe Dean Pees should be a scapegoat for having to work with substandard personnel.  He doesn't pick and sign the players and there is no doubt there's a talent gap between us and our division rivals heading to the playoffs.

 

Bisciotti talked about our needs when venerable Oz was drifting and stammering and he mentioned defensive needs. 

[ravensdfan]

Have you ever heard the expression about "beating a dead horse"? We've got it! You don't like Dean Pees and wish someone else was our DC. Well, its time for you to build a bridge and get over it. Coach Pees did a superb job coaching a defense that lost its premier player in the first game and had no (as in zero) shutdown corners for the first eight games. In all but two of our 16 games we were competitive despite having backup QBs in the last six games. My two biggest concerns about Coach Pees are: 1. I like DCs & OCs on the field instead of in the booth and 2. His defenders are way too undisciplined, resulting in far too many silly and costly penalties. That being said, my first concern gets down to a preference and is within the Head Coach's purview to change where his DC is during the games. My second concern could be easily resolved by the Head Coach. So, maybe we should just hire Greg Manusky who was fired by the Indianapolis Bolts after they finished 8-8? Frankly, I'm glad the Bolts took our LB coach. With the possible exception of Moseley, our linebacker play was not that stellar this year after losing T-Sizzle. Our longstanding record of consecutive games holding the opposition to less than 100 yards rushing ended this year.  Once he became convinced that we lacked the team speed to play man defense and started to play more zone defense in the second half, our defense improved with the exception of two games. That's a personnel problem, not a coaching problem. One of our top two offseason challenges was to fix our secondary. The FO didn't.

lol Except here we are every single year with people like you giving him excuses. Same issues, same tired old excuses. Perhaps you are the one beating a dead horse? As in a defense that doesn't improve, doesn't resolve its issues and continues to fail in the 4th quarter.

 

Funny how you're glad to see Monachino go after one bad showing when he's had years of success but want to defend Pees who has not had that success, only the bad showings. Want to use Suggs for an excuse for Pees failures but use him as a reason to be glad Monachino is gone. Interesting.

 

Want to praise Pees for realizing something once the season is done and gone, after 8 games! Instead of understanding that with his experience if he was the great DC you claim, he'd have realized that way sooner. That is their job you know, to understand their players' strengths & weaknesses and scheme to disguise weaknesses and bring out strengths. Pees not only didn't know that for 8 games, he stood up and declared his scheme was not the issue and was perfect.

 

Ironic in the end.

[DomMcRaven]

I have to say. This has been the longest handicap match I've ever seen (for you wrestling fans out there). 

[JoeyFlex5]

well they aren't considered losing seasons so what are they?

Why are they pees 4th quarter collapses and not the players? they are the ones on the feild. I'm not the biggest pees fan either..But the guy has to work with what he is Givin and due to the boatload of injuries he's had to work with scraps the last 2 seasons. Do you honestly think we give up those 2 14 point leads in New England had a healthy Jimmy Smith been on the feild? Seriously- the pessimistic sky is falling attitude really gets old. If only our brass was smarter than some of you geniuses who have all the answers.

look at his patriots playoff losses... He called a predictable and cautious secondary game plan and lost the same exact way we always lose. He has been doing it for years on different teams, and he tried to cough up the SB for us by calling a play that was proven to be a failure and Ray and ellerbe luckily perfected the blitz and kaepernick obviously can't throw a touch pass so we escaped despite pees. Obviously the talent is deserving of some blame, But he actually has been the common denominator in the ravens and patriots big game melt downs recently.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

You're never going to hit on every pick. A coordinator who must have a roster filled with star players isn't much of a coordinator. So it's talent but the other argument is how great we were the 2nd half of the season? I mean, which is it? It can't be both. Even if the argument is young talent, that means we didn't miss in the draft right? It doesn't work both ways.

 

No you said the defense was on the field a ton. Your words, not mine. TOP is what it is, and they were not on the field a ton. It was evenly split. That is just fact. Not saying the offense did them any favors nor that it was great or perfect. Just that the excuse you gave for their 4th quarter failures doesn't exist in the real world. Nor were their failures to get off the field limited to the 4th quarter. Are they tired in the first quarter? The 2nd? That was the point.

 

It's all good. Heard this song & dance last year. Predicted this dismal defensive showing for this season as well. Hopefully, we're all not right back here hearing the same old excuses for the same old failures on defense this time next year.

I guess by that logic Wade Phillips is a bad dcoordinator. Miller, Ware, Talib, TJ Ward, Chris Harris jr. . All were pro bowlers before Wade got there(though to be fair. Demarcus played with Wade before).  That's 5 pro bowlers or all pros on that defense. 

 

 

No. Pees figured something out. He obviously improved somehow. Whether it was changing his scheme. He didn't have an immediate answer for replacing Suggs. "But that means he's inadequate". No, it doesn't. Suggs is a hall of fame caliber talent. He's probably going there. Because tbh. We don't have a difference maker on his caliber. Closest thing we got is CJ and even he has flaws in his game. Williams is mainly a run defender. Jernigan is spotty at times, an inconsistent player. Dumervil is a one dimensional player. And despite him being a starter we have a top run defense. 

 

Okay and your point about "why did the defense turn around if we don't have young talent?". Here's why because what talent we do have developed. ZDS looked a lot better. CJ was a monster and played some good running backs. Jimmy Smith slowly started to look better. 

 

But that doesn't change that this defense lacks an edge rusher, an adequate #2 corner, a good Free Safety, and have had many a bust because of our poor drafting position. Elam? We had to sign Will Hill to cover that up. Brooks? Had to sign Lewis who's not much better. John Simon? Cut. Terrance Cody? Horrible. Under a great DC he was terrible. Arthur Brown doesn't play. 

 

We've had hits sure. But still lack key components to a good defense? 

 

Fine. Was wrong on TOP? OFFENSE STILL DIDN'T DO THEIR JOB THAT SEASON. That's a fact. We had to tool the offensive line. Get another RB because lets face it. Rice didn't have much in the thank anyway. Sign Steve, Daniels. That defense was not bad. "But we still took defense. That must mean it was bad". Offense does it's job. It's a playoff team. No doubt in my mind. We were a game away with a piece of crap offense. 

 

CJ was the BPA. No question of it. He's better than all of the other people available at the time without a doubt. You see a good player who you think could be a high level contributor to your defense that's a safe pick. You take him. Good ILBs can last you ten years. 

 

Jernigan was drafted to be an eventual Ngata replacement. And the BPA. Projected top 15 pick that fell to a diluted drug test. Does not mean that Williams was bad at all. Again. You have a potential trench difference maker you take him. We have an understanding that you need to solve the run defense first. 

 

Brooks was a bust. Bad pick for now. 

 

I'm not making excuses. I'm stating facts. What talent we do have is young for the most part. Our best pass rusher is a situational player. Our best CB was coming off of a major and hard injury. We don't have an adaquate #2 corner. A bad FS. No edge rusher. No other pass rushers other than Doom(the one we signed was cut a few weeks later for being a fool). We had guys coming off of injuries at the start of the season(CJ Mosely, Jernigan two of the best players on our defense were coming off an injury at the beginning of the year. Then we lose Suggs). 

 

I mean. 

Dumervil-Essentially a great situational pass rusher. Nothing more provided. 

Brandon Williams-High level player. Best player on the defense. 

Jernigan- Inconsistent player with the potential to be a high level player. Has flashed.

CJ-High level player... Leader of the defense. Has weaknesses in coverage. 

Jimmy-coming off of a major injury. Recovery has been slow(and it has been no coincidence that whenever he started playing better the defense turned around). 

Hill- Has an occasional bad play but is a good SS. 

 

That's our core. A situational rusher, two good Dlinemen, a stud MLB who's below average in coverage(but so good at everything else), an injured corner, and a very good not great SS. You have a good foundation in the front 7. Three really good young guys but none are pass rushers. The pass rusher is a horrible run defender(Dumervil), and the foundation in the secondary is poor. It needs an edge rusher. You have ZDS but we don't know what he is yet and I doubt he becomes a star. You need an adequate #2 corner as well as a #1, and at least a DECENT free safety(which Webb might end up being. Let's see where that goes). We have Suggs we can mask that issue partially. We have another full time pass rusher and an edge player. Take Dumervil away and switch with Suggs you kind of have the same effect. Great pass rush makes QBs release the ball faster and the rest is easy to figure out. 

 

Let's look at the others. The non high impact guys. 

 

Daryl-Old. Would not be surprised if cut. But is good. If I didn't think he was gone I'd put him above. 

Lawerence Guy-Decent DT and decent pass rusher. Goes downhill from here. 

 

 

Shareece Wright-Decent player. Not better than a #3 CB though tbh. 

Upshaw-A reverse Dumervil. No pass rush. Not an elite run defender. Above average run defender.

Canty-old and injury prone. 

Davis-see ZDS. 

ZDS-Raw. Inexperienced. Flashed at some point. 

Lewis-terrible. Was wrong here

Brooks-Bad. Never could beat Kendrick Lewis. 

Arrington-horrible. Was wrong here.

Webb-Clearly lost a step. moved to FS for a reason. Have yet to determine how he fairs there. 

 

That's nine guys who see a ton of playing time. The best of the nine is only decent. 

 

So let's see. Not much pass rushing support(ZDS has talent in the department but needs to develop). No good #2 corner to help out Jimmy who's coming off of an injury. Good run personnel. Which is important. But no to minimal pass rush with poor secondary choices.... 

 

How is that Pees' fault? Explain to me wise one. Arrington was bad this year even in the slot. I mean, he was benched for a reason. Webb wasn't that good as a CB. Moved him to FS to see if he fairs better than the crap we have there already. Upshaw who I didn't think was much of a pass rusher anyway.  Shareece is more of a #3 CB. And he by default had to cover the #2. He did okay, but isn't spectacular. 

 

 

Listen. I want a good defense too. There are pieces to work with. CJ, Williams, Jernigan, Jimmy, Hill, Hell, Doom even though he should be situational. That's a good core to build around. The problem is. Other than Daryl(who I think is gone because of cap) Guy, and Wright(the last two of which are only decent players. Pretty average), the talent around him is either inexperienced or pure crap(and it's mainly pure crap). You need to go get better players. You have guys who I think will turn into good players in Davis and ZDS. But I'm not sure if either are great. And guess what? If those two turn into good players the defense will get that much better. And I think they do. Unlike Brown and company(Elam had one good game and that's it. Only flash he's had) ZDS and Davis flashed a few times. I think they'll develop. That'll give the defense another decent pass rusher and a good 3 down dlinemen which is valuable. Jimmy returning to full health alone will make it easier on the pass rush. Without doing anything this defense can improve with Pees still in place. 

 

 

This defense has potential. My point is throwing in the towel already, when our mix of defensive problems is a mix of having crappy players, inexperienced players,a critical injury, lack of depth at key positions such as edge and corner, and then you have Pees. Then he's the problem in that long list of problems, is foolish. I have no doubt we're going to address corner this time(we don't need a big name either). I wouldn't be surprised at all if we took an edge rusher this draft. That would improve the defense. 

 

Again, I hate the fact that he's passive. I think we can do better. But at the same time. He doesn't have that much to work with. A lot of the talent we have put into the position either hasn't developed yet or just plain sucks. That's a fact. I think we can do a lot worst to be honest. Not just worse. A lot worse. I think there's a lot of fat on this steak. It's bad for us. That's personnel wise. But it can be fixed by addressing a rusher, or a corner. 

 

This defense needs to see what we have with the current talent, but at the same time we need to reinforce it just incase that fails. At our draft position(not just in the first round), that's not that hard. 

 

I don't think we'll win a SB next year(I didn't think that the year we won it either). But I think with the right moves we can force that window open again. Easily.

Edited January 8, 2016 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN

[ravensdfan]

I guess by that logic Wade Phillips is a bad dcoordinator. Miller, Ware, Talib, TJ Ward, Chris Harris jr. . All were pro bowlers before Wade got there(though to be fair. Demarcus played with Wade before).  That's 5 pro bowlers or all pros on that defense. 

 

 

No. Pees figured something out. He obviously improved somehow. Whether it was changing his scheme. He didn't have an immediate answer for replacing Suggs. "But that means he's inadequate". No, it doesn't. Suggs is a hall of fame caliber talent. He's probably going there. Because tbh. We don't have a difference maker on his caliber. Closest thing we got is CJ and even he has flaws in his game. Williams is mainly a run defender. Jernigan is spotty at times, an inconsistent player. Dumervil is a one dimensional player. And despite him being a starter we have a top run defense. 

 

Okay and your point about "why did the defense turn around if we don't have young talent?". Here's why because what talent we do have developed. ZDS looked a lot better. CJ was a monster and played some good running backs. Jimmy Smith slowly started to look better. 

 

But that doesn't change that this defense lacks an edge rusher, an adequate #2 corner, a good Free Safety, and have had many a bust because of our poor drafting position. Elam? We had to sign Will Hill to cover that up. Brooks? Had to sign Lewis who's not much better. John Simon? Cut. Terrance Cody? Horrible. Under a great DC he was terrible. Arthur Brown doesn't play. 

 

We've had hits sure. But still lack key components to a good defense? 

 

Fine. Was wrong on TOP? OFFENSE STILL DIDN'T DO THEIR JOB THAT SEASON. That's a fact. We had to tool the offensive line. Get another RB because lets face it. Rice didn't have much in the thank anyway. Sign Steve, Daniels. That defense was not bad. "But we still took defense. That must mean it was bad". Offense does it's job. It's a playoff team. No doubt in my mind. We were a game away with a piece of crap offense. 

 

CJ was the BPA. No question of it. He's better than all of the other people available at the time without a doubt. You see a good player who you think could be a high level contributor to your defense that's a safe pick. You take him. Good ILBs can last you ten years. 

 

Jernigan was drafted to be an eventual Ngata replacement. And the BPA. Projected top 15 pick that fell to a diluted drug test. Does not mean that Williams was bad at all. Again. You have a potential trench difference maker you take him. We have an understanding that you need to solve the run defense first. 

 

Brooks was a bust. Bad pick for now. 

 

I'm not making excuses. I'm stating facts. What talent we do have is young for the most part. Our best pass rusher is a situational player. Our best CB was coming off of a major and hard injury. We don't have an adaquate #2 corner. A bad FS. No edge rusher. No other pass rushers other than Doom(the one we signed was cut a few weeks later for being a fool). We had guys coming off of injuries at the start of the season(CJ Mosely, Jernigan two of the best players on our defense were coming off an injury at the beginning of the year. Then we lose Suggs). 

 

I mean. 

Dumervil-Essentially a great situational pass rusher. Nothing more provided. 

Brandon Williams-High level player. Best player on the defense. 

Jernigan- Inconsistent player with the potential to be a high level player. Has flashed.

CJ-High level player... Leader of the defense. Has weaknesses in coverage. 

Jimmy-coming off of a major injury. Recovery has been slow(and it has been no coincidence that whenever he started playing better the defense turned around). 

Hill- Has an occasional bad play but is a good SS. 

 

That's our core. A situational rusher, two good Dlinemen, a stud MLB who's below average in coverage(but so good at everything else), an injured corner, and a very good not great SS. You have a good foundation in the front 7. Three really good young guys but none are pass rushers. The pass rusher is a horrible run defender(Dumervil), and the foundation in the secondary is poor. It needs an edge rusher. You have ZDS but we don't know what he is yet and I doubt he becomes a star. You need an adequate #2 corner as well as a #1, and at least a DECENT free safety(which Webb might end up being. Let's see where that goes). We have Suggs we can mask that issue partially. We have another full time pass rusher and an edge player. Take Dumervil away and switch with Suggs you kind of have the same effect. Great pass rush makes QBs release the ball faster and the rest is easy to figure out. 

 

Let's look at the others. The non high impact guys. 

 

Daryl-Old. Would not be surprised if cut. But is good. If I didn't think he was gone I'd put him above. 

Lawerence Guy-Decent DT and decent pass rusher. Goes downhill from here. 

 

 

Shareece Wright-Decent player. Not better than a #3 CB though tbh. 

Upshaw-A reverse Dumervil. No pass rush. Not an elite run defender. Above average run defender.

Canty-old and injury prone. 

Davis-see ZDS. 

ZDS-Raw. Inexperienced. Flashed at some point. 

Lewis-terrible. Was wrong here

Brooks-Bad. Never could beat Kendrick Lewis. 

Arrington-horrible. Was wrong here.

Webb-Clearly lost a step. moved to FS for a reason. Have yet to determine how he fairs there. 

 

That's nine guys who see a ton of playing time. The best of the nine is only decent. 

 

So let's see. Not much pass rushing support(ZDS has talent in the department but needs to develop). No good #2 corner to help out Jimmy who's coming off of an injury. Good run personnel. Which is important. But no to minimal pass rush with poor secondary choices.... 

 

How is that Pees' fault? Explain to me wise one. Arrington was bad this year even in the slot. I mean, he was benched for a reason. Webb wasn't that good as a CB. Moved him to FS to see if he fairs better than the crap we have there already. Upshaw who I didn't think was much of a pass rusher anyway.  Shareece is more of a #3 CB. And he by default had to cover the #2. He did okay, but isn't spectacular. 

 

 

Listen. I want a good defense too. There are pieces to work with. CJ, Williams, Jernigan, Jimmy, Hill, Hell, Doom even though he should be situational. That's a good core to build around. The problem is. Other than Daryl(who I think is gone because of cap) Guy, and Wright(the last two of which are only decent players. Pretty average), the talent around him is either inexperienced or pure crap(and it's mainly pure crap). You need to go get better players. You have guys who I think will turn into good players in Davis and ZDS. But I'm not sure if either are great. And guess what? If those two turn into good players the defense will get that much better. And I think they do. Unlike Brown and company(Elam had one good game and that's it. Only flash he's had) ZDS and Davis flashed a few times. I think they'll develop. That'll give the defense another decent pass rusher and a good 3 down dlinemen which is valuable. Jimmy returning to full health alone will make it easier on the pass rush. Without doing anything this defense can improve with Pees still in place. 

 

 

This defense has potential. My point is throwing in the towel already, when our mix of defensive problems is a mix of having crappy players, inexperienced players,a critical injury, lack of depth at key positions such as edge and corner, and then you have Pees. Then he's the problem in that long list of problems, is foolish. I have no doubt we're going to address corner this time(we don't need a big name either). I wouldn't be surprised at all if we took an edge rusher this draft. That would improve the defense. 

 

Again, I hate the fact that he's passive. I think we can do better. But at the same time. He doesn't have that much to work with. A lot of the talent we have put into the position either hasn't developed yet or just plain sucks. That's a fact. I think we can do a lot worst to be honest. Not just worse. A lot worse. I think there's a lot of fat on this steak. It's bad for us. That's personnel wise. But it can be fixed by addressing a rusher, or a corner. 

 

This defense needs to see what we have with the current talent, but at the same time we need to reinforce it just incase that fails. At our draft position(not just in the first round), that's not that hard. 

 

I don't think we'll win a SB next year(I didn't think that the year we won it either). But I think with the right moves we can force that window open again. Easily.

What did the offense have? Flacco, an aging SSS, and Forsett who was not the Forsett of a year ago. Yet, that unit was Top 7 under a brand spanking new OC trying to run someone else's system before Flacco went down. It just isn't an excuse anymore. Not after four years.

 

Pees is what he is. Vanilla, conservative running a bend but don't break system that breaks statistically too often. If he's staying, we fail unless we address offense and are able to put up 30 or better most games. Pees will pull that rare great game, like the 2nd Steelers' game this year, where the offense might not need 30, but like I said last year - only a high octane offense saves us from Pees' brand of defense. And as we saw this year in Oakland, even THAT won't guarantee us a win.

Edited January 8, 2016 by ravensdfan

[BmoreBird22]

Hey, just throwing this out there, but the 25 points per game allowed is flawed as a stat. I added up all the scores and averaged out and it's 25, which includes any pick six and points off turnover from fumbles.

Accounting for all points off of turnovers moves them up to about 15th, and that's only accounting for four defensive touchdowns that I remember (Talib, Jax, Peters, Schaub)

[allblackraven]

Hey, just throwing this out there, but the 25 points per game allowed is flawed as a stat. I added up all the scores and averaged out and it's 25, which includes any pick six and points off turnover from fumbles.

Accounting for all points off of turnovers moves them up to about 15th, and that's only accounting for four defensive touchdowns that I remember (Talib, Jax, Peters, Schaub)

15th would be very close to the definition of mediocre in a 32 teams league.