Top 5 Draft Pick?

[GrimCoconut]

I want to see more of Goff, but it wouldn't be the worst pick in the world. He's a guy that has a lot of good traits already, but one that still needs some work. If he's a guy that you think can develop into that franchise QB in 2-3 years, then I wouldn't see a problem with taking him. At that point, you could probably move Flacco for a nice haul. It might not pay immediate dividends, but if he's a guy you think could be a top QB in the league, then you absolutely take him. The thing that stands out most to me is his ability to stay calm and move within the pocket. He's one of the best I've seen in that regard in the past few years.

With that being said, I still believe in and I'm sure the team believes in Flacco. I don't think he's a top 5 QB by any means, but more than half of the teams in the league would absolutely love to have him. I think this would be a much more reasonable debate if Flacco was like 2 years older, but he's still got plenty of time left in this league if he wants it.

Yeah, this sums up how I feel about it. Things can change as well, because he may not even be there. Besides, Joe has been remarkably durable so he may be able to play much longer than others in his position if he chooses.

Goff, for me, is a guy that I'd admittedly be annoyed we took him but would later warm up to the idea. The only reason I brought it up is because I do think it's possible albeit very unlikely.

[rmw10]

Yeah, this sums up how I feel about it. Things can change as well, because he may not even be there. Besides, Joe has been remarkably durable so he may be able to play much longer than others in his position if he chooses.

Goff, for me, is a guy that I'd admittedly be annoyed we took him but would later warm up to the idea. The only reason I brought it up is because I do think it's possible albeit very unlikely.

 

Yeah I don't see it happening, but I wouldn't completely rule it out.  It would be a bold move undoubtedly, but what keeps it even slightly possible to me is the fact that we're not usually in a position to draft a top QB.  If we think Goff can be an elite QB, then I see no problems with pulling the trigger.  I don't see it as likely, but I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea.

[Inqui]

Tunsil's doing a good job overall against Myles Garrett in this Ole Miss v Texas ATM game. Treadwell too, though I don't see him in the top-five picture.

[Cillmatic]

There's this thing called learning. What you're failing to realize is that Bosa's main responsibility as a rookie would likely be rushing the passer when he's on the field. He can absolutely do that as a 3-4 OLB. With Suggs and Dumervil still here, there's no pressure for Bosa to take on every single role of a 3-4 OLB right off the bat. That gives him an opportunity to learn the position and everything that comes with it. It's not like he wouldn't see considerable time as a down lineman in nickel situations.

"What you're failing to realize is that Bosa's main responsibility as a rookie would likely be rushing the passer"... Really bro. In his rookie season? He's a pass rusher, not a scientist,like Elvis rushing the passer is ALL he'll probably ever have to do. Again, your over simplifying it. Converted to 3-4 isn't as simply as you're saying, it takes players a while to learn it and it takes pass rushers more than a season to even be that effective. I merely don't think he's worth taking in the top 5 this year when you think about the teams needs. We need a DB, not a DE playing the opposite system who is a boom or bust player. Or maybe in just drunk off the Rams. Edited October 25, 2015 by Cillmatic

[rmw10]

"What you're failing to realize is that Bosa's main responsibility as a rookie would likely be rushing the passer"... Really bro. In his rookie season? He's a pass rusher, not a scientist,like Elvis rushing the passer is ALL he'll probably ever have to do. Again, your over simplifying it. Converted to 3-4 isn't as simply as you're saying, it takes players a while to learn it and it takes pass rushers more than a season to even be that effective. I merely don't think he's worth taking in the top 5 this year when you think about the teams needs. We need a DB, not a DE playing the opposite system who is a boom or bust player. Or maybe in just drunk off the Rams.

 

I'm pretty sure I just mentioned all of that.  Pinning his ears back and getting after the QB is what he does best, so as a rookie, that's how we'd use him.  Meanwhile, he'd be learning the nuances of being a complete 3-4 OLB.  I'm not saying it's simple, which is why I'm saying that we don't have to put him on a crash course, do it all 3-4 OLB training right away.  He'll have that time to learn the position.  Bosa has a relentless motor, great hand usage, and a variety of pass rush moves.  It won't take him long to get accustomed to the NFL game and getting after the QB.  It's the other stuff - diagnosing screens, dropping into coverage, etc. - that will be the learning curve for him, not the pass rush.

 

Edit to add:

It's not like he's spending all of his time standing up.  He'd get a considerable amount of time playing with his hand in the dirt, both on the outside and inside, with how much time is spent in the nickel defense nowadays.

 

I get that you don't like Bosa and think he's overrated, but I've yet to see you give any reason as to why you think that.

Edited October 25, 2015 by rmw10

[rmw10]

I know LT isn't exactly the biggest need right now, pending Monroe is able to stay healthy, but man Ronnie Stanley is so good.  He's one of the best pass protecting LTs I think I've seen since I started really getting into the draft and evaluating prospects.  He may not play with that mean streak, but his kick slide and hand usage are nearly flawless.

Edited October 25, 2015 by rmw10

[ravefan52]

And Oregon had maybe the best offense in the NCAA last season

And not to mention two top tier OT's which Bosa went against

[GrimCoconut]

I know LT isn't exactly the biggest need right now, pending Monroe is able to stay healthy, but man Ronnie Stanley is so good.  He's one of the best pass protecting LTs I think I've seen since I started really getting into the draft and evaluating prospects.  He may not play with that mean streak, but his kick slide and hand usage are nearly flawless.

Yeah, I haven't watched him this year, but he was amazing last year. I would not be upset if we took Stanley. 

[GrimCoconut]

"What you're failing to realize is that Bosa's main responsibility as a rookie would likely be rushing the passer"... Really bro. In his rookie season? He's a pass rusher, not a scientist,like Elvis rushing the passer is ALL he'll probably ever have to do. Again, your over simplifying it. Converted to 3-4 isn't as simply as you're saying, it takes players a while to learn it and it takes pass rushers more than a season to even be that effective. I merely don't think he's worth taking in the top 5 this year when you think about the teams needs. We need a DB, not a DE playing the opposite system who is a boom or bust player. Or maybe in just drunk off the Rams.

I'm pretty sure I just mentioned all of that.  Pinning his ears back and getting after the QB is what he does best, so as a rookie, that's how we'd use him.  Meanwhile, he'd be learning the nuances of being a complete 3-4 OLB.  I'm not saying it's simple, which is why I'm saying that we don't have to put him on a crash course, do it all 3-4 OLB training right away.  He'll have that time to learn the position.  Bosa has a relentless motor, great hand usage, and a variety of pass rush moves.  It won't take him long to get accustomed to the NFL game and getting after the QB.  It's the other stuff - diagnosing screens, dropping into coverage, etc. - that will be the learning curve for him, not the pass rush.

 

Edit to add:

It's not like he's spending all of his time standing up.  He'd get a considerable amount of time playing with his hand in the dirt, both on the outside and inside, with how much time is spent in the nickel defense nowadays.

 

I get that you don't like Bosa and think he's overrated, but I've yet to see you give any reason as to why you think that.

It's funny how you say that Bosa is just a pass rusher and that's his job, and then later state how there's more for him to learn in the 3-4 as a pass rusher. I find this very amusing because it's entirely contradictory. RMW didn't call you out on it but I will. You can't have an argument go both ways and still turn out to be right. The fact is you're completely wrong and just look very silly to me. I'm not sure that matters, because I myself don't matter, but to just go and talk like you're an authority on his future just seems really immature when your argument seems to be baseless in this instance. 

 

When Suggs first got here he came from a 4-3 team with the Arizona State Sun Devils. His best attribute was his football speed off the snap. He was explosive. He had issues with stopping the run and in coverage, but he was a beast as an explosive edge guy. He came here and got better in all those areas. This is where I have a problem with your comments. Why is it that Bosa can't do the same? Because you don't like him? It just makes no sense to me. You think he's overrated and maybe he is. He has a great team around him and I do see him not give full effort out there at times. I'd like to see a better motor. With that said, it's just so silly for you to completely write him off because he comes from a 4-3. It's like you act like no other 4-3 end has ever changed to a 3-4 OLB before. 

 

Just come on and stop this nonsense, man. He has the athleticism to transition to a 3-4 OLB, which is what's necessary for the position along with pass rush ability. 

Edited October 25, 2015 by GrimCoconut

[Inqui]

I know LT isn't exactly the biggest need right now, pending Monroe is able to stay healthy, but man Ronnie Stanley is so good.  He's one of the best pass protecting LTs I think I've seen since I started really getting into the draft and evaluating prospects.  He may not play with that mean streak, but his kick slide and hand usage are nearly flawless.

Yeah, I get excited every time I watch his footwork. He's going to make a ZBS team very happy. I feel like his main problem is about upper-body strength in the running game. He drives off his legs well (at least, that's my impression) and bends well, but just doesn't seem to have the strength to push some of the bigger players off their spot. Hopefully a year or two in an NFL weights program will be good for him, but if we're in the top five he's possibly the guy I'm pounding the table for.

[rmw10]

Yeah, I get excited every time I watch his footwork. He's going to make a ZBS team very happy. I feel like his main problem is about upper-body strength in the running game. He drives off his legs well (at least, that's my impression) and bends well, but just doesn't seem to have the strength to push some of the bigger players off their spot. Hopefully a year or two in an NFL weights program will be good for him, but if we're in the top five he's possibly the guy I'm pounding the table for.

 

Seriously.  I can understand that it's hard to get excited about an OL prospect being that they don't make splash plays, but I find myself kind of smiling every time I watch him.  It's honestly a joy to see how great his technique is.  As you said, he may not have the bulldog strength in the running game, but I'll be damned if he isn't an elite pass blocker in the league.  I honestly cannot find a consistent flaw in his technique.

Edited October 25, 2015 by rmw10

[GrimCoconut]

Seriously.  I can understand that it's hard to get excited about an OL prospect being that they don't make splash plays, but I honestly finding myself kind of smiling every time I watch him.  It's honestly a joy to see how great his technique is.  As you said, he may not have the bulldog strength in the running game, but I'll be damned if he isn't an elite pass blocker in the league.  I honestly cannot find a consistent flaw in his technique.

Imagine...

 

Monroe - Stanley - Zuttah - Yanda - Wagner

 

Joe will be clean. 

[Inqui]

Imagine...

 

Monroe - Stanley - Zuttah - Yanda - Wagner

 

Joe will be clean. 

All aboard for winning every game with scores like 60-57.

[GrimCoconut]

All aboard for winning every game with scores like 60-57.

I actually wouldn't mind Stanley or Tunsil at all. I'm really impressed by both. I've actually been somewhat underwhelmed by Bosa this year. He doesn't look as ferocious out there, and I feel like he's possibly playing it safe. I hate it when guys do that but I understand why, but I still don't like it. I think that's why Cillmatic doesn't like him. I watched Bosa last year and he was fantastic. He doesn't look the same this year, but I do think he's been better against the run than he was last year. If that's anything. 

 

There's no question that for me, the top-5 for us are Hargreaves, Stanley, Bosa, Ramsey, & Tunsil at this moment. 

[Inqui]

Seriously.  I can understand that it's hard to get excited about an OL prospect being that they don't make splash plays, but I find myself kind of smiling every time I watch him.  It's honestly a joy to see how great his technique is.  As you said, he may not have the bulldog strength in the running game, but I'll be damned if he isn't an elite pass blocker in the league.  I honestly cannot find a consistent flaw in his technique.

So it's not just me then. I went straight to Tunsil tape after watching Stanley and decided his feet were way too heavy - but watching him today shows just how skewed my view of him was (now that I've seen him without getting used to Stanley). My main concern about us taking him in the top five is that even when he struggles in the running game (and I don't think he's bad at run blocking, more inconsistent) his technique looks fine, which makes me question his upside over Monroe.

 

Notre Dame is becoming quite the OL factory.

[Inqui]

I actually wouldn't mind Stanley or Tunsil at all. I'm really impressed by both. I've actually been somewhat underwhelmed by Bosa this year. He doesn't look as ferocious out there, and I feel like he's possibly playing it safe. I hate it when guys do that but I understand why, but I still don't like it. I think that's why Cillmatic doesn't like him. I watched Bosa last year and he was fantastic. He doesn't look the same this year, but I do think he's been better against the run than he was last year. If that's anything. 

 

There's no question that for me, the top-5 for us are Hargreaves, Stanley, Bosa, Ramsey, & Tunsil at this moment. 

Like I was saying to you, I haven't gotten around to properly watching Bosa yet (as in, sitting down with an hour or two's worth of tape and getting a good look). I've been meaning to, but I might just wait until we lose a couple more games. In the meantime, getting excited about his splash plays and using him as a carrot to numb the pain of this season is just fine though.

 

I could agree with that top five though. Maybe make it a top six and add Ndkmicehe (that's totally not how you spell it). It's the same story as Bosa for me though.

[PurpleCity5]

I like Ronnie Stanley alot as well. He would give us so much flexibility. You could go ahead and start him at guard his first year, then you can let Wagner depart and shift him at RT. He can play pretty much anywhere. Our offensive line would be solid for years to come.

[Cillmatic]

It's funny how you say that Bosa is just a pass rusher and that's his job, and then later state how there's more for him to learn in the 3-4 as a pass rusher. I find this very amusing because it's entirely contradictory. RMW didn't call you out on it but I will. You can't have an argument go both ways and still turn out to be right. The fact is you're completely wrong and just look very silly to me. I'm not sure that matters, because I myself don't matter, but to just go and talk like you're an authority on his future just seems really immature when your argument seems to be baseless in this instance.

When Suggs first got here he came from a 4-3 team with the Arizona State Sun Devils. His best attribute was his football speed off the snap. He was explosive. He had issues with stopping the run and in coverage, but he was a beast as an explosive edge guy. He came here and got better in all those areas. This is where I have a problem with your comments. Why is it that Bosa can't do the same? Because you don't like him? It just makes no sense to me. You think he's overrated and maybe he is. He has a great team around him and I do see him not give full effort out there at times. I'd like to see a better motor. With that said, it's just so silly for you to completely write him off because he comes from a 4-3. It's like you act like no other 4-3 end has ever changed to a 3-4 OLB before.

Just come on and stop this nonsense, man. He has the athleticism to transition to a 3-4 OLB, which is what's necessary for the position along with pass rush ability.

Thanks for being polite bruh

[GrimCoconut]

Thanks for being polite bruh

Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong here, but that was polite and that could've been more severe. You've arguably gone out of your way to criticize this guy and your rationale doesn't make sense. I typically ignore comments you've made and not directly called you out on it because I personally don't like to do that, but I honestly felt like those may be the only approach I have to maybe show you how you appear here.

I don't even necessarily disagree with you. I think there are questions on whether he will do well. I just think your arguments aren't fair or valid.

[rmw10]

Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong here, but that was polite and that could've been more severe. You've arguably gone out of your way to criticize this guy and your rationale doesn't make sense. I typically ignore comments you've made and not directly called you out on it because I personally don't like to do that, but I honestly felt like those may be the only approach I have to maybe show you how you appear here.

I don't even necessarily disagree with you. I think there are questions on whether he will do well. I just think your arguments aren't fair or valid.

 

I think my biggest issue is that I've yet to see any concrete reason why he feels he's overrated, other than the fact that he'd have to make the switch from a down lineman to a standup rusher.  I know that you know I'm more than okay if people disagree with how I view a prospect, but there has to be some sort of rationale to go along with it.

[GrimCoconut]

I think my biggest issue is that I've yet to see any concrete reason why he feels he's overrated, other than the fact that he'd have to make the switch from a down lineman to a standup rusher. I know that you know I'm more than okay if people disagree with how I view a prospect, but there has to be some sort of rationale to go along with it.

Yeah. I do have concerns surrounding the prospect that he is overrated. My concerns stem from a trend of unsuccessful players against successful ones. I really liked Bosa coming into this season, but much like Clowney, I'm seeing him take plays off and not play with the intensity he's shown capable. These concerns always raise red flags with me as you well know.

I've noticed that most successful prospects from college typically play hard and never seem to just mail it in after establishing themselves. I can't recall many successful NFL players who adopted this strategy before turning pro.

Look at VH3 and even Cooper. Those guys never mailed it in and they're very successful players and prospects.

Edited October 25, 2015 by GrimCoconut

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Imagine...

Monroe - Stanley - Zuttah - Yanda - Wagner

Joe will be clean.

Man.. That's awesome. Or imagine

Monroe-KO-Zuttah-Yanda-Stanley...

Actually the first is kind of better.... Nvm

[Cillmatic]

I think my biggest issue is that I've yet to see any concrete reason why he feels he's overrated, other than the fact that he'd have to make the switch from a down lineman to a standup rusher. I know that you know I'm more than okay if people disagree with how I view a prospect, but there has to be some sort of rationale to go along with it.

Show me a full game film where he displays game breaking quality. Edited October 25, 2015 by Cillmatic

[rmw10]

Show me a full game film where he displays game breaking quality.

 

This is exactly my point.  All I ever hear is "go the film"

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Okay. The Oregon game. Where he actually drops into coverage on a few plays and towards the end of the game decides to make life miserable for that offense.

[Cillmatic]

Okay. The Oregon game. Where he actually drops into coverage on a few plays and towards the end of the game decides to make life miserable for that offense.

He looked cool in that game but most of it he was getting controlled by the RT(who we should look into). I don't think he was double teamed once. I just didn't see the game breaking talent. A top 5 pick needs to be an immediate beast, I just don't see it in this guy. I don't see how's he's in the same league as Ramsey, Hargreaves, the two OT's, the DT, or Treadwell.

[Jamal]

If I were Flacco I'd immediately demand a trade if we drafted a QB, and rightfully so. The guy already has minimal talent around him and then you draft a QB with a top 5 pick?

Sorry but it makes zero sense to me.

[Cillmatic]

If I were Flacco I'd immediately demand a trade if we drafted a QB, and rightfully so. The guy already has minimal talent around him and then you draft a QB with a top 5 pick?

Sorry but it makes zero sense to me.

Sad thing is we probably wouldn't get more than a 2nd-3rd round pick for our "Ellie" QB.

[Jamal]

Sad thing is we probably wouldn't get more than a 2nd-3rd round pick for our "Ellie" QB.

I doubt a QB needy team wouldn't give us a 1st Rounder or 2.

[Cillmatic]

I doubt a QB needy team wouldn't give us a 1st Rounder or 2.

His contract and inconsistent play wouldn't be appealing to most teams, We're stuck with Flacco, there's no Great QB coming out this year and we probably won't be in the position to draft one in the next couple years.