2016 DB Prospect Thread

[Inqui]

Apparently 1/3 of Michigan's passing yards came from one-on-one matchups with VH3.

 

 

Fortunately for all involved scouts should look at his year as a whole, so hopefully there's still a decent chance he gets picked up ahead of us.

[Kid87]

Lol yeah Hargreaves got destroyed today.. lol that Double Move had me weak!! GO BLUE.. lol but just a bad game he is gonna be a solid player in the NFL

[PurpleCity5]

But off man is purely the choice of the corner given their comfort level to deal with the speed and down and distance. On Sunday, Jimmy was pressing the hell out of his man and really playing with some serious aggression. In that sense, Ramsey is fine to be here in Baltimore.

 

As far as his ball skills go, I just really do like that he's always looking at the ball. The most impressive thing for me is that he'll play press man, understands his leverage, pushes his man to the boundary, but he's able to keep up and keep his eyes on the quarterback 90% of the time through that route and almost 100% of his once he's got his man to the boundary. 

He's still not my favorite defensive back (Kendall Fuller is, followed by Alexander), but I do think he's being underrated around here recently. He went from overrated to underrated.

While it is the CB choice as to how much space they want to give, there will always be times when you simply cannot press. Guys who  rely on being Man-Press CBs tend to struggle when leaving for a new defense. In a zone coverage, you will be at times asked to read the QB and jump on routes. One example of this is Namdi Asomugha when transitioning to a zone defense. In a man cover scheme, he certainly deserved the praise as being arguably the best CB, being so good teams just didn't bother with him. His transition to a zone coverage was awful. I see Ramsey as a guy who is a great man-press CB, but has a lot of questions in terms of off-man and zone coverage. I'm not saying he is terrible at it, but its a weakness simply because its an unanswered part of his game. So many CBs struggle as rookies simply because a lot of them are natural man-press CBs, when transitioning to the NFL where you're competing against world-class athletes, they lack the ability to play zone and read QBs and WRs.

 

I don't know if Ramsey will have the same problem but at times he's slow to react when it comes to playing the WR and reading his routes so I wonder if that will be a problem when asked to play off-man and zone coverage. I know this can be shot down easily considering that many college CBs prefer to press, but many of them demonstrate the ability to play off-man and zone fully. Ronald Darby who is the best rookie CB right now was a guy who played a lot of press at Florida State but demonstrated fully how to play off-man and zone.

[BmoreBird22]

While it is the CB choice as to how much space they want to give, there will always be times when you simply cannot press. Guys who  rely on being Man-Press CBs tend to struggle when leaving for a new defense. In a zone coverage, you will be at times asked to read the QB and jump on routes. One example of this is Namdi Asomugha when transitioning to a zone defense. In a man cover scheme, he certainly deserved the praise as being arguably the best CB, being so good teams just didn't bother with him. His transition to a zone coverage was awful. I see Ramsey as a guy who is a great man-press CB, but has a lot of questions in terms of off-man and zone coverage. I'm not saying he is terrible at it, but its a weakness simply because its an unanswered part of his game. So many CBs struggle as rookies simply because a lot of them are natural man-press CBs, when transitioning to the NFL where you're competing against world-class athletes, they lack the ability to play zone and read QBs and WRs.

 

I don't know if Ramsey will have the same problem but at times he's slow to react when it comes to playing the WR and reading his routes so I wonder if that will be a problem when asked to play off-man and zone coverage. I know this can be shot down easily considering that many college CBs prefer to press, but many of them demonstrate the ability to play off-man and zone fully. Ronald Darby who is the best rookie CB right now was a guy who played a lot of press at Florida State but demonstrated fully how to play off-man and zone.

Nnamdi, in my opinion, greatly struggled just by virtue of expectations, not being in a terrible secondary anymore, and being asked to play more than just RCB for the entire game. He wasn't transitioning to a heavy zone scheme considering DRC is a pretty well respected man cover corner and Samuel was a pretty good off man corner, but that's a debate for a different time. 

 

And you don't have to explain any of this to me and I think you're understating the issue quite a bit. 

Many rookie corners flat out struggle because they're athletes first trying to learn the position. Think of Justin Gilbert as the biggest example of this. He's got the raw athleticism (leaping ability and insane speed) to really keep up with college receivers, but the NFL is obviously a far different animal. Gilbert is what you'd probably consider a college corner who could play press man or off man due to fluid hips, impressive agility, and insane burst in his breaks. He had all the tools to play off man, but he couldn't do it in the NFL. Athleticism will rarely get you by in the NFL. I guess what I'm trying to say there is that it's unfair to just say most rookie corners struggle because they played press man mostly. Gilbert did it all in college, but he was an athlete first and that truly hurt him.

 

As far as Ramsey goes, he already has a very impressive understanding of the technique required to press and a very impressive understanding of leverage. That's far more than can be said for most "press rookie corners". 

My favorite corner prospect of the past few years was Desmond Trufant. I thought he'd be the absolute best corner in that draft class and it honestly stemmed from his ability to play off man. Not that he could play it, but just because he had extremely impressive route recognition and burst to the ball. 

 

To sum all of this up because I think I went a few different directions: It's unfair to say a rookie corner will struggle because he plays press man a lot in college. I'm looking for the technique that he plays with and the understanding of the position and whether that comes as a press man, off man, or zone corner, it does not matter to me. If they can show they know how to play corner, I'm happy.

[nishadrahman13]

so darelle revis? id give it to alexander, i think he just stick to his guy like glue and makes any receiver he faces a non factor

I went to look at some MacKensie Alexander tape. He is impressive, but he isn't as good as his numbers make him seem. He benefits hugely from Clemson's monstrous pass rush, and most throws that end up going his way are off target. Based on the 2015 Ravens, I don't think we have a comparable pass rush to take the heat off. He'll be a good player, but he isn't as sticky as it may seem.

[GrimCoconut]

I went to look at some MacKensie Alexander tape. He is impressive, but he isn't as good as his numbers make him seem. He benefits hugely from Clemson's monstrous pass rush, and most throws that end up going his way are off target. Based on the 2015 Ravens, I don't think we have a comparable pass rush to take the heat off. He'll be a good player, but he isn't as sticky as it may seem.

I liked Alexander based off what I've seen of him so far, which admittedly is only four games, but I noticed that even he plays the WR at times. I think this is a minor complaint because most college CB play the WR a lot and it's rare to have one actually consistently play the ball. I love his passion on the field. He's better than Ramsey in that regard because he gets amped but doesn't get undisciplined.

He can be more of a playmaker and has had his hand on the ball but seems to fail to turn it over despite having a good chance at it. I think he'll likely get better in all areas because I read he is a dedicated player to his craft.

I certainly wouldn't mind him early.

[Cillmatic]

If we have KO and Treadwell on the team next season the offense is elite. After seeing him explode in the bowl game I'm hoping we can get him.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Cillmatic

[PurpleCity5]

Nnamdi, in my opinion, greatly struggled just by virtue of expectations, not being in a terrible secondary anymore, and being asked to play more than just RCB for the entire game. He wasn't transitioning to a heavy zone scheme considering DRC is a pretty well respected man cover corner and Samuel was a pretty good off man corner, but that's a debate for a different time. 

 

And you don't have to explain any of this to me and I think you're understating the issue quite a bit. 

Many rookie corners flat out struggle because they're athletes first trying to learn the position. Think of Justin Gilbert as the biggest example of this. He's got the raw athleticism (leaping ability and insane speed) to really keep up with college receivers, but the NFL is obviously a far different animal. Gilbert is what you'd probably consider a college corner who could play press man or off man due to fluid hips, impressive agility, and insane burst in his breaks. He had all the tools to play off man, but he couldn't do it in the NFL. Athleticism will rarely get you by in the NFL. I guess what I'm trying to say there is that it's unfair to just say most rookie corners struggle because they played press man mostly. Gilbert did it all in college, but he was an athlete first and that truly hurt him.

 

As far as Ramsey goes, he already has a very impressive understanding of the technique required to press and a very impressive understanding of leverage. That's far more than can be said for most "press rookie corners". 

My favorite corner prospect of the past few years was Desmond Trufant. I thought he'd be the absolute best corner in that draft class and it honestly stemmed from his ability to play off man. Not that he could play it, but just because he had extremely impressive route recognition and burst to the ball. 

 

To sum all of this up because I think I went a few different directions: It's unfair to say a rookie corner will struggle because he plays press man a lot in college. I'm looking for the technique that he plays with and the understanding of the position and whether that comes as a press man, off man, or zone corner, it does not matter to me. If they can show they know how to play corner, I'm happy.

As far as Nnamdi goes, I really think the transition to a zone really screwed with him because of his lack of experience in the zone. A CB transitioning to zone heavy scheme needs to understand various route combinations and alignments. It's mentally demanding on a player, especially for one who was just moved to CB, I know Ramsey has done very well since moving to CB but we all know the NFL is a different ball game. Bringing Nnamdi up may be pointless, but I thought it was useful considering that it was bringing up a guy who was scheme specific in retrospect. He was a press-man CB who sunk as soon as he head to another system. 

 

I don't know anything about Gilbert's play because I haven't watched him, but all I hear about is his lack of confidence. You're surely right about his struggles, he was a do it all guy and in theory what I meant about the struggles of young CBs transitioning to the NFL is pertaining to many of them struggling to read the CB, anticipate routes and just not being able to keep up with NFL WRs. 

 

Ramsey is a guy who I just see as a blue-chip press CB, but less effective off-man or in zone coverage. I'm insinuating that he can never develop the skills to become a good off-man CB or effective in the zone, but the learning curve will make it steeper since he hasn't developed those attributes fully. I think his technique is underrated, especially for a guy who had to switch to CB. 

 

My thing with Ramsey is as a safety, he is unproven as a play-maker and a guy with range and as a CB, he has not shown he can fully function off-man or zone. Not saying he can't do either of those things, I think he can develop those attributes but his ultra aggressive demeanor can hold him from being effective in either of those aspects. I think he is ultra-talented and I'm not against picking him, I just question his transition both as a CB and FS and I think he is too questionable to think of him as a blue-chip.

[PurpleCity5]

If we have KO and Treadwell on the team next season the offense is elite. After seeing him explode in the bowl game I'm hoping we can get him.

Treadwell wouldn't be a bad pick but Ozzie would have to answer some questions to answer if we don't address CB or OLB early. 

[ravensnick]

Jourdon Lewis is a great player for Michigan. I'd love to have him, but we will have to wait till next year. Tre'davious White looked like a mid-late first rounder in my eyes in the Texas Tech game. 

 

My corner rankings personally go:

 

1. Ramsey

2. Hargreaves

3. Alexander

4. White

5. King

Edited January 2, 2016 by ravensnick

[JoeyFlex5]

Treadwell wouldn't be a bad pick but Ozzie would have to answer some questions to answer if we don't address CB or OLB early.

you can make an argument for wr as the biggest hole on the team. He wouldn't have to answer to anybody when treadwell comes in with a 1000 yard rookie season. Edited January 2, 2016 by JoeyFlex5

[BmoreBird22]

As far as Nnamdi goes, I really think the transition to a zone really screwed with him because of his lack of experience in the zone. A CB transitioning to zone heavy scheme needs to understand various route combinations and alignments. It's mentally demanding on a player, especially for one who was just moved to CB, I know Ramsey has done very well since moving to CB but we all know the NFL is a different ball game. Bringing Nnamdi up may be pointless, but I thought it was useful considering that it was bringing up a guy who was scheme specific in retrospect. He was a press-man CB who sunk as soon as he head to another system. 

 

I don't know anything about Gilbert's play because I haven't watched him, but all I hear about is his lack of confidence. You're surely right about his struggles, he was a do it all guy and in theory what I meant about the struggles of young CBs transitioning to the NFL is pertaining to many of them struggling to read the CB, anticipate routes and just not being able to keep up with NFL WRs. 

 

Ramsey is a guy who I just see as a blue-chip press CB, but less effective off-man or in zone coverage. I'm insinuating that he can never develop the skills to become a good off-man CB or effective in the zone, but the learning curve will make it steeper since he hasn't developed those attributes fully. I think his technique is underrated, especially for a guy who had to switch to CB. 

 

My thing with Ramsey is as a safety, he is unproven as a play-maker and a guy with range and as a CB, he has not shown he can fully function off-man or zone. Not saying he can't do either of those things, I think he can develop those attributes but his ultra aggressive demeanor can hold him from being effective in either of those aspects. I think he is ultra-talented and I'm not against picking him, I just question his transition both as a CB and FS and I think he is too questionable to think of him as a blue-chip.

As far as Ramsey goes (so we can keep this on topic), I don't think there will be a steep learning curve to be ready to possibly play day one. 

Will it really matter if he can only play in press man coverage if that's what his team asks of him? Probably not because he can work in that role while developing elsewhere.

 

What I'm saying separates Ramsey from a Gilbert is that Ramsey at least understands the technique required to play press, so it's not like he'll just struggle like every other rookie corner who relies on athleticism over technique.

[GrimCoconut]

Jourdon Lewis is a great player for Michigan. I'd love to have him, but we will have to wait till next year. Tre'davious White looked like a mid-late first rounder in my eyes in the Texas Tech game.

My corner rankings personally go:

1. Ramsey

2. Hargreaves

3. Alexander

4. White

5. King

Lewis is returning?!

[JoeyFlex5]

As far as Ramsey goes (so we can keep this on topic), I don't think there will be a steep learning curve to be ready to possibly play day one.

Will it really matter if he can only play in press man coverage if that's what his team asks of him? Probably not because he can work in that role while developing elsewhere.

What I'm saying separates Ramsey from a Gilbert is that Ramsey at least understands the technique required to play press, so it's not like he'll just struggle like every other rookie corner who relies on athleticism over technique.

but while a great press corner can jam up his man and then back pedal and swivel his hips when he eventually wins a side...can Ramsey? His footwork is very bad as a cb and he is playing against college guys who typically dont face press anywhere near as much as nfl guys, you can't field a 1 dimensional db unless that one strength is coverage, that press coverage won't work every time and in ramseys case I think he's in big trouble every time his man gets a lane up field.

[PurpleCity5]

you can make an argument for wr as the biggest hole on the team. He wouldn't have to answer to anybody when treadwell comes in with a 1000 yard rookie season.

We do need a WR but injuries have played a role in it. We can look foward to guys returning and putting up production granted we do need one. I cannot say enough how big of a problem CB has been. We need one badly. Same can be said for OLB which is a position that has to be addressed. Outside of Suggs and Jimmy, we cannot say for sure what this pass rush and secondary will look like, its too bleak and too big of a problem not to address early.

[nishadrahman13]

We do need a WR but injuries have played a role in it. We can look foward to guys returning and putting up production granted we do need one. I cannot say enough how big of a problem CB has been. We need one badly. Same can be said for OLB which is a position that has to be addressed. Outside of Suggs and Jimmy, we cannot say for sure what this pass rush and secondary will look like, its too bleak and too big of a problem not to address early.

If we're healthy, we can compete for the Super Bowl. I believe that pre draft and free agency. The fact is we probably won't be, so we're going to have to go BPA like always.

[JoeyFlex5]

We do need a WR but injuries have played a role in it. We can look foward to guys returning and putting up production granted we do need one. I cannot say enough how big of a problem CB has been. We need one badly. Same can be said for OLB which is a position that has to be addressed. Outside of Suggs and Jimmy, we cannot say for sure what this pass rush and secondary will look like, its too bleak and too big of a problem not to address early.

so you're content with sss at his age and in His condition, perriman in his condition, and aiken, but not content with sizzle doom and zds? Or Jimmy Webb and Wright? I don't like any of those line ups given the circumstances but I can't say definitively that one is a bigger problem than the other. I think all are equally bleak and each position offers some good talent where we sit in the draft. If treadwellis the top guy which Seems very possible then he would be the best pick

[nishadrahman13]

so you're content with sss at his age and in His condition, perriman in his condition, and aiken, but not content with sizzle doom and zds? Or Jimmy Webb and Wright? I don't like any of those line ups given the circumstances but I can't say definitively that one is a bigger problem than the other. I think all are equally bleak and each position offers some good talent where we sit in the draft. If treadwellis the top guy which Seems very possible then he would be the best pick

I still think there's a shot to beat Cincy, so that could change our draft fate drastically. Put us in range for Carl Lawson in the 1st, and trading up in the second for whoever is sliding to us.

[BmoreBird22]

but while a great press corner can jam up his man and then back pedal and swivel his hips when he eventually wins a side...can Ramsey? His footwork is very bad as a cb and he is playing against college guys who typically dont face press anywhere near as much as nfl guys, you can't field a 1 dimensional db unless that one strength is coverage, that press coverage won't work every time and in ramseys case I think he's in big trouble every time his man gets a lane up field.

I'm not saying he'll be some great cornerback. What I was saying is that I don't think the learning curve will be nearly what it was for someone like Justin Gilbert and that Ramsey could possibly start day one if needed.

[BmoreBird22]

I still think there's a shot to beat Cincy, so that could change our draft fate drastically. Put us in range for Carl Lawson in the 1st, and trading up in the second for whoever is sliding to us.

Even if the Ravens beat Cinci, they're a near lock for the top 10. I think I saw somewhere that the odds are 99%, even with a win.

[BmoreBird22]

so you're content with sss at his age and in His condition, perriman in his condition, and aiken, but not content with sizzle doom and zds? Or Jimmy Webb and Wright? I don't like any of those line ups given the circumstances but I can't say definitively that one is a bigger problem than the other. I think all are equally bleak and each position offers some good talent where we sit in the draft. If treadwellis the top guy which Seems very possible then he would be the best pick

This one doesn't bother me a bit as long as they all stay healthy.

[ravefan52]

This one doesn't bother me a bit as long as they all stay healthy.

Yeah, that's the problem though. Jimmy, Webb and Davis all have trouble staying healthy.

[PurpleCity5]

so you're content with sss at his age and in His condition, perriman in his condition, and aiken, but not content with sizzle doom and zds? Or Jimmy Webb and Wright? I don't like any of those line ups given the circumstances but I can't say definitively that one is a bigger problem than the other. I think all are equally bleak and each position offers some good talent where we sit in the draft. If treadwellis the top guy which Seems very possible then he would be the best pick

I just can't get behind how awful this pass rush has been. It's improved for a while, but I think it's proven Doom isn't a three down edge rusher. It's been too much for him and honestly you don't know about Suggs either. It's his 2nd season ending injury at this point and you can raise similar concerns to Steve Smith Sr. I like Za'Darius but is he a full time starter? I'm not sure. I don't even have to say much at CB. Webb is a question mark to return, and I like what Wright has done but I can't declare him as a full time starter and even Jimmy has struggled this year. Call me crazy but I actually do feel better about the WR group than the pass rush or CB. 

[ravensnick]

Lewis is returning?!

Said he wanted to get his degree before he went to the NFL.

[JoeyFlex5]

I just can't get behind how awful this pass rush has been. It's improved for a while, but I think it's proven Doom isn't a three down edge rusher. It's been too much for him and honestly you don't know about Suggs either. It's his 2nd season ending injury at this point and you can raise similar concerns to Steve Smith Sr. I like Za'Darius but is he a full time starter? I'm not sure. I don't even have to say much at CB. Webb is a question mark to return, and I like what Wright has done but I can't declare him as a full time starter and even Jimmy has struggled this year. Call me crazy but I actually do feel better about the WR group than the pass rush or CB.

I feel like we can't possibly fix all 3 areas in one off season, so we need to make the most of what we can in one or 2 of those areas. Treadwell I think is a safer pick than any db or edge rusher where we stand, not that he's my favorite guy, but I would still like the pick very much

[GrimCoconut]

Said he wanted to get his degree before he went to the NFL.

Probably a smart move. I really like that guy. He's got talent man. He could very well be a high first round pick next year.

[GrimCoconut]

I feel like we can't possibly fix all 3 areas in one off season, so we need to make the most of what we can in one or 2 of those areas. Treadwell I think is a safer pick than any db or edge rusher where we stand, not that he's my favorite guy, but I would still like the pick very much

I think we can.

Treadwell, Ngakoue, CB works. I think the CB class is pretty decent. There's talent but it's going to require good scouting and luck.

[ravensnick]

Probably a smart move. I really like that guy. He's got talent man. He could very well be a high first round pick next year.

My friend is a Michigan fan, so I've watched a couple games with him. Lewis really impressed me. He's talented and very few guys out there play harder than he does.

[GrimCoconut]

My friend is a Michigan fan, so I've watched a couple games with him. Lewis really impressed me. He's talented and very few guys out there play harder than he does.

I watched my share of their games this year for many reasons. Part was matchup and game excitement. The other part was I wanted to see the Harbaugh Wolverines lol. He's certainly been great. I'd love him here. A shame it can't be this year.

What do you think of their QB, Jake Rudock? I really like him.

[rmw10]

I've seen a lot of people down on Ramsey lately, but I took the time to put on some tape tonight and I don't see why to be honest.  I get that a lot of people saw him playing close to the LOS, and while that's true, it doesn't mean he's stuck there.  How he's used in college doesn't equate to how he can be used in the NFL.  Ramsey has some of the most impressive closing speed I've seen.  He has incredible range on the back end, regardless of how much he was actually used there.  My biggest concern is his overaggressiveness and questionable ball skills.  He's a dangerous guy on the back end though.  FSU has used him in a myriad of different roles because he can do them all and do them well.