True Raven fans

[D_UP]

This.

I really dislike these 'Im a better fan than you' posts.

The Pseudo-elitism doesnt help anybody.

[RavensFanMania]

Idk, sometimes that mini rebuild can do a lot of good. Look at Atlanta. Two awful seasons and now it looks like they're back on track.

They just needed new coaching, the talent was there.  I believe a change of DC's and we are back.

[rmcjacket23]

They just needed new coaching, the talent was there.  I believe a change of DC's and we are back.

Generally speaking, players with great talent don't need a ton of coaching.

 

Frankly, we're really talking about the secondary here, because I think most people can agree that the front seven, while not playing great, has been sufficient enough to win.

 

Our secondary simply isn't young... at all. Of the five main guys we play (Jimmy, Webb, Hill, Lewis and Arrington), Will Hill is the least experienced guy there, and this is his 4th year in the league. We're not really young in the secondary, and that's where most of the issue's I've seen the last two weeks have come from.

 

Its kind of hard to argue that guys like Jimmy, Webb, Lewis and Arrington are in need of significant coaching at this point in their careers...

[Tru11]

Generally speaking, players with great talent don't need a ton of coaching.

 

Frankly, we're really talking about the secondary here, because I think most people can agree that the front seven, while not playing great, has been sufficient enough to win.

 

Our secondary simply isn't young... at all. Of the five main guys we play (Jimmy, Webb, Hill, Lewis and Arrington), Will Hill is the least experienced guy there, and this is his 4th year in the league. We're not really young in the secondary, and that's where most of the issue's I've seen the last two weeks have come from.

 

Its kind of hard to argue that guys like Jimmy, Webb, Lewis and Arrington are in need of significant coaching at this point in their careers...

 

they should be at a point that they understand the defense and not have communication issues.

they should know the plays and should be able to put the youngest players in the right position based on what the offense shows.

 

we should really stop acting like these are some kids who need to have their hand hold every step they take.

[GrimCoconut]

Generally speaking, players with great talent don't need a ton of coaching.

Frankly, we're really talking about the secondary here, because I think most people can agree that the front seven, while not playing great, has been sufficient enough to win.

Our secondary simply isn't young... at all. Of the five main guys we play (Jimmy, Webb, Hill, Lewis and Arrington), Will Hill is the least experienced guy there, and this is his 4th year in the league. We're not really young in the secondary, and that's where most of the issue's I've seen the last two weeks have come from.

Its kind of hard to argue that guys like Jimmy, Webb, Lewis and Arrington are in need of significant coaching at this point in their careers...

Coaching will only do so much, but scheming and running the system the DC uses is another thing. I'm convinced Pees has a system that just doesn't consistently fit our personnel.

I don't think the players are largely football smart. The coordinator needs to do a better job of putting these guys in a better position where they can succeed.

Edited September 28, 2015 by GrimCoconut

[Tru11]

Coaching will only do so much, but scheming and running the system the DC uses is another thing. I'm convinced Pees has a system that just doesn't consistently fit our personnel.

I don't think the players are largely football smart. The coordinator needs to do a better job of putting these guys in a better position where they can succeed.

 

what scheme would fit our players?

[GrimCoconut]

what scheme would fit our players?

I'd like to see more consistent press bail coverage. I'd like to see less zone simply because this team can't tackle. You need to tackle to play zone. We aren't a great press team either, and it's clear to me Jimmy is still getting back from his injury, but I think it's a better fit than zone.

[rmcjacket23]

I'd like to see more consistent press bail coverage. I'd like to see less zone simply because this team can't tackle. You need to tackle to play zone. We aren't a great press team either, and it's clear to me Jimmy is still getting back from his injury, but I think it's a better fit than zone.

Not necessarily disagreeing here, because its clear we're not great in zone, but couple of problems I see with this...

 

1. Based on what I've seen the last two weeks and probably longer, the idea of our corners playing press coverage with Lewis and Hill behind them scares the crap out of me. We're seeing Lewis and Hill consistently being late with their assignments in zone coverage... I can't even fathom how poor they would do one or more corners get beat deep in press coverage, which is far more likely to happen in that type of coverage. Press coverage is great when you have safeties who know what they are doing. We currently don't in that regard.

 

2. If these guys can't tackle (and I agree currently that they can't), there isn't a defensive system invented yet or will ever be invented that will make them look good. Tackling is 1000000% a personnel issue. Its desire, its technique, and its aggression. If they don't have it at this stage, they'll probably never have it, and no scheme will be able to cover them from it.

 

I don't carry if you're Darrelle Revis in coverage... if you can't tackle pretty consistently, you'd never start or probably even play for any team I coordinated or coached. It is the one absolute, unequivocal skill set that every single quality defensive player in any league anywhere must have, and while players like linebackers and defensive lineman are generally given the most credit for being good at it, its unbelievably vital when you're literally the last thing that separates player from end zone. In the case of our corners and safeties, that's particularly the case.

[Tru11]

I'd like to see more consistent press bail coverage. I'd like to see less zone simply because this team can't tackle. You need to tackle to play zone. We aren't a great press team either, and it's clear to me Jimmy is still getting back from his injury, but I think it's a better fit than zone.

 

we played mostly man coverage coupled with 5 man rushes in the 4th quarter and actually for most of the game.

 

i take it you saw how that worked out lol.

 

at this point neither blitzing with zone/man is going to work with how the secondary isent able to cover nor tackle.

[GrimCoconut]

Not necessarily disagreeing here, because its clear we're not great in zone, but couple of problems I see with this...

1. Based on what I've seen the last two weeks and probably longer, the idea of our corners playing press coverage with Lewis and Hill behind them scares the crap out of me. We're seeing Lewis and Hill consistently being late with their assignments in zone coverage... I can't even fathom how poor they would do one or more corners get beat deep in press coverage, which is far more likely to happen in that type of coverage. Press coverage is great when you have safeties who know what they are doing. We currently don't in that regard.

2. If these guys can't tackle (and I agree currently that they can't), there isn't a defensive system invented yet or will ever be invented that will make them look good. Tackling is 1000000% a personnel issue. Its desire, its technique, and its aggression. If they don't have it at this stage, they'll probably never have it, and no scheme will be able to cover them from it.

I don't carry if you're Darrelle Revis in coverage... if you can't tackle pretty consistently, you'd never start or probably even play for any team I coordinated or coached. It is the one absolute, unequivocal skill set that every single quality defensive player in any league anywhere must have, and while players like linebackers and defensive lineman are generally given the most credit for being good at it, its unbelievably vital when you're literally the last thing that separates player from end zone. In the case of our corners and safeties, that's particularly the case.

Press bail coverage helps because it puts the CB near the ball rather than away from it. I agree that tackling is a problem, but I feel this issue would be reduced in press bail because the CB should be right there with the WR at the LOS then bail out so they can better see the QB. They could also mix more press coverage to keep the offense honest.

The downside to bail is it allows inside routes to develop, but that's why you mix actual press coverage as well. It initially looks like press but it's not. I think a mixture of press and bail is perfect for us atm.

[Tru11]

Not necessarily disagreeing here, because its clear we're not great in zone, but couple of problems I see with this...

 

1. Based on what I've seen the last two weeks and probably longer, the idea of our corners playing press coverage with Lewis and Hill behind them scares the crap out of me. We're seeing Lewis and Hill consistently being late with their assignments in zone coverage... I can't even fathom how poor they would do one or more corners get beat deep in press coverage, which is far more likely to happen in that type of coverage. Press coverage is great when you have safeties who know what they are doing. We currently don't in that regard.

 

2. If these guys can't tackle (and I agree currently that they can't), there isn't a defensive system invented yet or will ever be invented that will make them look good. Tackling is 1000000% a personnel issue. Its desire, its technique, and its aggression. If they don't have it at this stage, they'll probably never have it, and no scheme will be able to cover them from it.

 

I don't carry if you're Darrelle Revis in coverage... if you can't tackle pretty consistently, you'd never start or probably even play for any team I coordinated or coached. It is the one absolute, unequivocal skill set that every single quality defensive player in any league anywhere must have, and while players like linebackers and defensive lineman are generally given the most credit for being good at it, its unbelievably vital when you're literally the last thing that separates player from end zone. In the case of our corners and safeties, that's particularly the case.

 

the fact that they cant tackle is even worse when you consider they cant seem to cover in either man or zone either lol.

 

nor do they have the speed to recover once beaten which is a pre is you want to play press coverage.

 

at this point i think our only chance is to send 7 all day and hope the rush gets their on time and pray any short pass results in a tackle being made like in the broncos game.

[GrimCoconut]

we played mostly man coverage coupled with 5 man rushes in the 4th quarter and actually for most of the game.

i take it you saw how that worked out lol.

at this point neither blitzing with zone/man is going to work with how the secondary isent able to cover nor tackle.

It's not but perhaps changing coordinator will because it doesn't look like the defense is playing for Dean Pees. Do you honestly think they are?

We also played off man coverage a lot. There's a difference between press man coverage and off man. I need to go back and watch it to see how much, since I was half watching and half studying at that point in the game.

Edited September 28, 2015 by GrimCoconut

[Tru11]

Press bail coverage helps because it puts the CB near the ball rather than away from it. I agree that tackling is a problem, but I feel this issue would be reduced in press bail because the CB should be right there with the WR at the LOS then bail out so they can better see the QB. They could also mix more press coverage to keep the offense honest.

The downside to bail is it allows inside routes to develop, but that's why you mix actual press coverage as well. It initially looks like press but it's not. I think a mixture of press and bail is perfect for us atm.

 

the issue with press coverage is that the  CB needs to have the speed to make up ground once beat.

 

its highly unlikely you are able to press a receiver for majority off the play.

 

also with press you will see teams use pick plays alot or stack formations or use wrs in motion.

 

neither of our corners seem to have the speed to catch up to a WR and only jimmy seems to have the proper technique to use press good anyways

 

and like jacket said.

 

our safeties seems to either be very slow or they dont know what they are doing cause they always appear to be late lol

[GrimCoconut]

the fact that they cant tackle is even worse when you consider they cant seem to cover in either man or zone either lol.

nor do they have the speed to recover once beaten which is a pre is you want to play press coverage.

at this point i think our only chance is to send 7 all day and hope the rush gets their on time and pray any short pass results in a tackle being made like in the broncos game.

That's not going to work. What I'm saying is we need to get the defense to at least fit the personnel and stuck with it. I believe in mixing up coverage but that's not helping us now. We need to be good at something. There's no way these guys are just terrible at football. They have to fit something.

[GrimCoconut]

the issue with press coverage is that the CB needs to have the speed to make up ground once beat.

its highly unlikely you are able to press a receiver for majority off the play.

also with press you will see teams use pick plays alot or stack formations or use wrs in motion.

neither of our corners seem to have the speed to catch up to a WR and only jimmy seems to have the proper technique to use press good anyways

and like jacket said.

our safeties seems to either be very slow or they dont know what they are doing cause they always appear to be late lol

So let's continue to play zone when we can't tackle? I like zone, honestly, but it's not working nor is off man. I think that's what's making me mad more than anything. Off man coverage is a terrible fit for this team. I actually think press is a little better for us, but I don't disagree that we lack the speed if we get beat, but it's something worth trying at this point. What do you have to lose?

[Tru11]

It's not but perhaps changing coordinator will because it doesn't look like the defense is playing for Dean Pees. Do you honestly think they are?

We also played off man coverage a lot. There's a difference between press man coverage and off man. I need to go back and watch it to see how much, since I was half watching and half studying at that point in the game.

thats the thing though.

 

the DC just calls in the play.

 

CBs are free to decide if you play press or play loose.

 

TBH our CBs playing seems to me they fear getting beat over the top since they cant count on the safeties for support.

 

i also do think they probably gave up on pees but thats more an indicment on them tbh.

if they did they are hurting the team , team mates on offense and such and the fans.

 

i rather have them call a mutiny and clear the air then this farce ...

[gtalk12]

[RavensFanMania]

Generally speaking, players with great talent don't need a ton of coaching.

 

Frankly, we're really talking about the secondary here, because I think most people can agree that the front seven, while not playing great, has been sufficient enough to win.

 

Our secondary simply isn't young... at all. Of the five main guys we play (Jimmy, Webb, Hill, Lewis and Arrington), Will Hill is the least experienced guy there, and this is his 4th year in the league. We're not really young in the secondary, and that's where most of the issue's I've seen the last two weeks have come from.

 

Its kind of hard to argue that guys like Jimmy, Webb, Lewis and Arrington are in need of significant coaching at this point in their careers...

Partly you are correct, but the scheme needs to put the players in the position to succeed.  i.e. Nnamdi Asamia (spelling) was terrific under the Raiders scheme but when he went to the Eagles he was atrocious.  Scheme and right fit means everything.   If you don't have a scheme that places these players in a position to succeed you won't be successful.  Dean Pees doesn't have a scheme that is advantageous to the defense. 

[GrimCoconut]

thats the thing though.

the DC just calls in the play.

CBs are free to decide if you play press or play loose.

TBH our CBs playing seems to me they fear getting beat over the top since they cant count on the safeties for support.

i also do think they probably gave up on pees but thats more an indicment on them tbh.

if they did they are hurting the team , team mates on offense and such and the fans.

i rather have them call a mutiny and clear the air then this farce ...

They may call whether they go off or press, I'd need facts to support that, but I will say this:

You mention blitzing more. Zone coverage is great if you have a slow secondary. I know that. It masks some deficiencies, but I suppose I don't think our secondary is that bad. I think it needs to be handled better. If you want to blitz and use a CB to do it, it's much more difficult to succeed in blitzing a CB in zone than it is press. This is because the CB are in zones and they'll have to come closer to the LOS and that compromises the integrity of the zone coverage system.

In press, you can actually blitz a CB easier in disguise than you can in zone. That's the point. Since we're lacking OLB pressure, CB blitz would help us. It's true that it leaves someone uncovered, but you can't have it all.

[RavensFanMania]

Coaching will only do so much, but scheming and running the system the DC uses is another thing. I'm convinced Pees has a system that just doesn't consistently fit our personnel.

I don't think the players are largely football smart. The coordinator needs to do a better job of putting these guys in a better position where they can succeed.

Giving Green free access to do whatever he pleases off the line of scrimmage instead of playing a little press is one of the reason he has been beating us.

[GrimCoconut]

Partly you are correct, but the scheme needs to put the players in the position to succeed. i.e. Nnamdi Asamia (spelling) was terrific under the Raiders scheme but when he went to the Eagles he was atrocious. Scheme and right fit means everything. If you don't have a scheme that places these players in a position to succeed you won't be successful. Dean Pees doesn't have a scheme that is advantageous to the defense.

I actually think zone coverage is great and Jimmy can play man or zone. The problem for me continues to be pressure and tackling. We seem to be bad at both atm. Press would possibly help with pressure, and could help with tackling if the CB can PD.

[Tru11]

That's not going to work. What I'm saying is we need to get the defense to at least fit the personnel and stuck with it. I believe in mixing up coverage but that's not helping us now. We need to be good at something. There's no way these guys are just terrible at football. They have to fit something.

 

jimmy is good in press man to man coverage.

webb is decend in both zone and man cov but not press.

melvin i have no idea what he can do.

arrington is more a zone CB in the slot then a man guy and no way he can play press.

davis is a good man to man guy but not that great in zone.

 

hill is good in zone but only on the close to intermediate level and can stay with backs and some TE in man cov.

 

lewis is supposed to be a single high safety with range but i havent seen it .

seems to be  a lesser version of hill without the man cov skills.

 

brooks could be the FS we want but is young and inexperienced.

 

both mosley and smith are decend in zone and very avg in man cov.

 

none of our olb should ever be in coverage lol.

 

also only got 1 pure pass rusher in Doom.

 

my idea would be to put brook back there with hill  and play man with davis , jimmy and webb and hope for the best lol.

id probably run alot of 2 man under coverages untill the cbs get their confidence back.

 

all in all my opinion about them though.

i take it most wont agree with it.

[RavensFanMania]

Thoughts on Ted Monachino  taking over as DC???

[Moderator 3]

How did this end up being another post-game/DC thread? Can anyone stick to a subject?

[The Mom Gene]

Guys???  Are we discussing "True Ravens Fans"???  Or, are we discussing yesterdays game???  or Pees as DC.....  Let's stick to the topic of the thread.

 

This thread has been completely Hijacked.

[Tru11]

me and grimm got carried away 

[GrimCoconut]

Yeah, my bad. Kinda forgot the topic.

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

We just got to keep pulling for our team.

[GrimCoconut]

We just got to keep pulling for our team.

I know I am. I think most people here, especially the angry ones, love the team and get angry because they know what we can do. We haven't been blown out so that's promising. We've been in these games. It's obvious to me we can win every game we lost.

[kassaiscool]

I don't understand this topic.Their will always be bandwagon fans and their always be true fans. I'm more concerned on how bad the secondary is, and how we can fix it.

Edited September 28, 2015 by kassaiscool