The Good, Bad and Ugly vs Raiders

[ravensdfan]

They have Webb has the best defensive player? Imma go ahead and stop right there

Webb had 2 really bad plays that stood out so everyone is on his back but overall he really did not do that badly.

[jazz1988]

Lol'd at this, though

 

Ryan Mink ‏@ryanmink  1m1 minute ago

Not a good sign for Za'Darius Smith being active next week. Harbs: “I saw OK, average play. He gave a little effort, and he was out there."

 

Bummer he got called out bad by Harbs

[rmw10]

Bummer he got called out bad by Harbs

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the "and he was out there" part.  That's hilarious, although not a good sign at all for ZDS.

[jazz1988]

I thoroughly enjoyed the "and he was out there" part.  That's hilarious, although not a good sign at all for ZDS.

 

I didn't even see him out there much but  but Harbs definitely got way with words man. I guess this for sure means Babin will be activated next week and hope he helps.

[DomMcRaven]

Lol'd at this, though

 

Ryan Mink ‏@ryanmink  1m1 minute ago

Not a good sign for Za'Darius Smith being active next week. Harbs: “I saw OK, average play. He gave a little effort, and he was out there."

Bummer he got called out bad by Harbs

I actually like this. Call the guy out and let's see how he responds. I'd rather have this than Harbs saying "he played great today" and "I'm proud of him."

[Ravensfan23]

Sure, there are going to be plays that every single quarterback wishes he could have back, but you're nitpicking two plays from that game (I don't even remember a crossing route to Brown where he had to reach back behind him). He threw 44 passes altogether in the Raiders game and going back to the Broncos game, it'd be three plays that you picked out from, I believe, 76 total passes between both games. If we're really talking about 3 plays out of 76 (4%), then it is entirely petty. 

 

And I wasn't making excuses for Flacco, simply pointing out that this notion that these "elite" quarterbacks have elite receivers that are mismatches or just phenomenal craftsman of their trades. Think of Ben with Antonio Brown, Aaron Rodgers with Jordy and Cobb, Brady with Gronk, Brees had Graham (and has looked far from great without Graham), Rivers with Allen and Gates, Romo with Dez and Witten, etc. These are all guys that can go out and make plays for their quarterbacks when it's needed. Do those quarterbacks often make great plays? Sure, but do they always? Hell no. Did you see Brees against the Buccaneers? He looked putrid. Those players will often make plays for their quarterback.

Thinking of the Crockett missed play, since you brought it up, it could have been thrown a little further down the field (although, I'm sure Joe was worried about leading him out of the end zone), but that ball was in-between BOTH of Crockett's hands. Think if that's Witten, Gates, or Gronk. Do you think they drop it? Probably not. Think of that Steve Smith play. Joe probably could have waited a tick longer and made a throw with less trajectory, but Steve Smith hardly even attempted to drag that second foot or get a second foot down. Would it have been a tough play? Sure, but he could have definitely gotten that foot down and just fallen to the turf. Great receivers will make that play. 

 

If Joe is who Steve, Ozzie, Eric, etc. all think he is, they need to do a better job of giving him respectable weapons. I'm really glad they drafted Perriman, finally, and went and traded up for Williams. That's the type of dedication that should have been happening for years. I'm still floored they missed out on Alshon Jeffery, Keenan Allen, and Allen Robinson, but such is the nature of the game. Hopefully the front office realizes that all of this turnover and lack of offensive talent is hurting Joe and makes a concerted effort to get more talent infused and keep stability at offensive coordinator.

I agree with everything you're saying. I'm in no way saying Flacco was poor in that game. I'm just pointing out plays that I'm sure when he watched the film he expected to make. Flacco would be much better with better weapons. But i also believe Flacco is good enough to help develop the current guys and hope that Perriman is everything they hope he is. But that still doesn't take away the fact that the plays i pointed out needs to be made and more often then not the Elite guys make them. Hell Joe make them in the playoffs but January Joe showing up in the regular season would be good enough to carry this team even when the defense sucks. Not his fault at all but he definitely had some plays he'd want back. He can't ask these guys to make the unbelievable catches that Boldin and Pitta have made before because as everyone had pointed out, they aren't them. So that means Flacco has to sharpen his game until those guy get up to par.

You can say if that is another guy other then Gilmore he makes the play and that's definitely true because Pitta has made that play before. However my point is the ball placement could have and should have been better. Did Joe give his guy a shot? Yes but he also gave the defender who was beat enough that he couldn't even get his head around, a shot to make a play as well. Joe has made that throw many times before so it's a bit frustrating to see him lob it like that and reduce the chances of it being a successful play. He asked Gilmore to make a tougher catch then what needed to be.

[Ravensfan23]

Ah well I do not count penalties. I know we ran them and mine was an exaggerated slam because many came before Gilmore was being double teamed.

 

Sadly, this season I do not have that ability. Moving is always an adjustment lol

Yea they ran a total of 13 2TE sets, 3 3TE set(all runs) and Max was on the field 4 times as the lone TE. Most of it came in the first half as the offense adjusted in the 2nd half.

[ravensdfan]

Yea they ran a total of 13 2TE sets, 3 3TE set(all runs) and Max was on the field 4 times as the lone TE. Most of it came in the first half as the offense adjusted in the 2nd half.

And that is my beef pretty much - 2nd half they are double teaming Gilmore so perhaps at least try some and see if they work.

[gtalk12]

Flacco is only 30, we still have alot of time to find him a real weapon. I like what I'm seeing in Gilmore. It's a wait and see with Perriman and Maxx

[Ravensfan23]

And that is my beef pretty much - 2nd half they are double teaming Gilmore so perhaps at least try some and see if they work.

Honestly i think that was apart of the plan. It wasn't like the offense was stuck in the 2nd half. But despite people saying there are no weapons or talent on offense, there is a lot of potential and right now Trestman is doing a good job of working in the entire offense. This offense could go 2TE or it could go 3WR exclusively like it did in the 2nd half. Added attention to Gilmore meant more space for the WRs and Aiken was able to take advantage and of course Smitty. There's no need to show everything on offense. Different guys will be featured each week imo.

I know everyone is looking for Maxx and Camp to get major work but i think it's coming. Trestman has had two completely different game plans and areas of attack in these games. I'm not sure where the Bengals have a weakness but i'm sure Trestman will attempt to attack it, unlike most of our other OCs who had one gameplan for every team it seemed. The Bengals will be a really good test for Trestman and the offense.

[Guest]

He made a few mistakes. I don't think you'll find many games that any QB does not make a mistake or two. However, he did his job as did the entire offense. As to playing "great" - the stats are better than "good".  The point is that whether or not Flacco does his job on any given Sunday (or Monday/Thursday) he gets the criticism.

 

Flacco needs to raise his completion percentage. 59% is not good I don't care if we won (or put up 30pts) whatever. Today it was 71% but that still isn't good enough.

 

Flacco needs to lob that ball so that ONLY his guy can get it or it is incomplete (a common criticism in 2013). Now Flacco needs to stop throwing those jump balls to the end zone.

 

The underthrown passes seemed excessive today but some around here never give the guy a break let alone any credit.

 

You guys do understand whats going on with Flacco right?  His long ball is 74 yards. He is constantly having to take a little off or arc it especially high so he doesn't overthrow receivers.

EL OH EL.

 

Check back after week 17. I guarantee you Oakland won't look this good on offense for the rest of the season.

 

I bet Oakland has a much improved year.

And I said as much in my long post. Steve Smith is 5'9"- why are fades being called for him? He does have good jumping ability and tenacity, but a taller player would go a long way.

 

Agree......Flacco threw a fade lob route to Smith before Steve cleared...it was angled for the corner and was slightly overthrown.

I want the jump balls gone period.

 

Flacco's Lob Jump Ball has not been good. Those are where the incompletions generally came.  The jump lob will become an integral part of our offense. We just are forcing now and that includes Joe.

 

Trestman did his job the jury is still out on him... I don't even want to talk about out defensive performance. I'm normally a pretty level headed guy, but that was embarrassing. Idc how we do anymore this year, just give me a few good games this year baltimore... Please, beat the steelers at least once. 

 

Trestman does not instill confidence. Here nor anywhere he's been.

 

I mean, it's not exactly easy to go out there in pads and throw 40+ yards through the air accurately. I would love to see his touch become consistent, but at least with Senior, he's hitting him more often than not which probably just points to a level of comfort and chemistry that he does not have with the others.

 

Once again, Joes Lob and Touch throws are not his best.  That's were he missed consistently yesterday. To be on his ball has to whistle.

No. WRs adjust to the ball. Flacco lofts it and if they need to keep running, they'll keep running. Rarely the case. The deep ball issue that Flacco has had most of his career is on Flacco. He let's the ball go high and flutter around. I cringe when he unleashes one and I shouldn't.

 

The one underlobbed to Waller was a lost touchdown. Either Waller decided he could beat his man on the fly (and he did) and Flacco didn't see it because he lobbed early. Or Waller didn't have the option to run a fly and that foiled the chance.

One more thing since people keep bringing up Waller and how he needs to get playing time. He didn't play like 6'6" wide receiver at all  today and you clearly see he still needs time to grow as a receiver but I think he will get there eventually.

 

Flacco isn't comfortable with anyone but Steve Smith. It could be the young guys fault.  Smith is where he's supposed to be and that's Flacco's comfort level.

It's just amazing to me that after winning the SB in 2012 because of great offensive production, and after tanking 2013 partly because of no talent at WR, that the FO has let it happen again. I could even go back to 2011 and 2010, when both playoff runs ended partly due to poor play at the receiver position. It's maddening.

 

In regard to his favorite receiver, we definitely pulled the rug out from under Flacco in 2013 and you could say we repeated it again this year.  I don't think our Front Office appreciates Flaccos need to develop rapport with this WR's. Joe is not a natural.  He's very good, but his weaknesses are not being adequately considered by our Front Office.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Danny D

[Guest]

I'm actually gonna agree here... thought he'd be slightly behind Will Hill, but definitely thought Webb was our best corner out there yesterday.

 

Much like the offense the week before, Webb didn't play great by any stretch, but thought he played a lot better than some of the players who played terrible (Kendrick Lewis).

 

I agree he played well......everyone is gonna focus on the TD where he tried to arm tackle the receiver when beat.  That was an awkward play, but Webb was not why we lost.

 

How bout Jimmy Smith getting beat by the rookie Cooper?.........yah...that was playing ball.

[ravensdan]

Flacco's missed TD throw to Steve Smith Sr, the Jernigan penalty, the porous defensive play the entire game, a DL that didn't dominate or at least match the play of the opposing OL, the bad tackling, inconsistent play of the WR corps outside of Smith Sr, and an OL that can't consistently run block or constantly dominate their opposing DL sealed this game for us.

Will Hill had that great INT that only amounted to a FG, and the LBs played well overall. Gillmore looked awesome. Steve Smith Sr played great and Forsett got some nice yardage when it was there. He fought really hard. I can't think of a lot of good. Hurst looked better. I guess there's that.

KO really looks lost out there. I'm not sure what's happened. I guess injury. Trestman adjusted and did OK. Pees never really adjusted and called a particularly poor game but the players didn't execute very well, either. I'm pretty disgusted by this loss.

You are spot on with all you say here Grim. I am completely shocked with this performance. To make matters worse is how bad this Raders team they just lost to is. I predicted a blowout win because by all rights it should have been. The team should be embarrassed from the coaches to every player. Embarrassed.

[ravensdan]

btw..derek carr is a very good QB in the making.

Could easily be a better QB than flacco.

Flacco just doesn't have a great touch on passes.

Don't get me wrong..he throws a perfect spiral and has a huge arm..but when it comes to the weight and passing direction? he's below average.

I don't think you're right at all Carr is not a good QB. He is a very limited player. This was not an on loss. I'm pretty sure this is the worst team we've lost to under Harbaugh. Way worse than that Jacksonville team.

[ratedr]

I don't think you're right at all Carr is not a good QB. He is a very limited player. This was not an on loss. I'm pretty sure this is the worst team we've lost to under Harbaugh. Way worse than that Jacksonville team.

I have to agree. That Jacksonville team at least had a pretty legit defense.

[ravensdfan]

Honestly i think that was apart of the plan. It wasn't like the offense was stuck in the 2nd half. But despite people saying there are no weapons or talent on offense, there is a lot of potential and right now Trestman is doing a good job of working in the entire offense. This offense could go 2TE or it could go 3WR exclusively like it did in the 2nd half. Added attention to Gilmore meant more space for the WRs and Aiken was able to take advantage and of course Smitty. There's no need to show everything on offense. Different guys will be featured each week imo.

I know everyone is looking for Maxx and Camp to get major work but i think it's coming. Trestman has had two completely different game plans and areas of attack in these games. I'm not sure where the Bengals have a weakness but i'm sure Trestman will attempt to attack it, unlike most of our other OCs who had one gameplan for every team it seemed. The Bengals will be a really good test for Trestman and the offense.

Yeah not really knocking Trestman too badly, he is still feeling his way and like you said, the game plan this week was very different from last week. We're not stuck in a rut like with Cam.

 

I will have to disagree about the talent for receiving options though. Gilmore played well until they double teamed him and then could not make himself a target at all. Top TEs find a way. Aiken is a journeyman and Brown a UDFA. These are #4 and #5 guys (highest possibly a #3 - but this isn't proven yet). These are our starters outside of Smith Sr. That is a pretty sorry state of affairs for a franchise QB that has been here for 8 years. There are no excuses IMO for not having weapons here well before now.

[cookiedood]

Am I the only person on the planet that thought making Babin inactive for that game, when we desperately needed a pass rusher was a stupendously idiotic decision. Pass rushers are not the brightest light bulbs in the closet, and they don't need to get acquainted with the system ( or lack of ), you line them up and say go get the Quarterback. Just ask Dexter Manley, who couldn't read write or even sign his name, but he was a hell of a pass rusher. Babin's career is obviously on the down side, but if they didn't think he could help, then why in the world did they sign him.

[GrimCoconut]

Am I the only person on the planet that thought making Babin inactive for that game, when we desperately needed a pass rusher was a stupendously idiotic decision. Pass rushers are not the brightest light bulbs in the closet, and they don't need to get acquainted with the system ( or lack of ), you line them up and say go get the Quarterback. Just ask Dexter Manley, who couldn't read write or even sign his name, but he was a hell of a pass rusher. Babin's career is obviously on the down side, but if they didn't think he could help, then why in the world did they sign him.

You still need to get chemistry and acquainted to the defense and system and calls. There are few plug-and-play positions in the NFL. 

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

I don't think you're right at all Carr is not a good QB. He is a very limited player. This was not an on loss. I'm pretty sure this is the worst team we've lost to under Harbaugh. Way worse than that Jacksonville team.

 

Yeah, this was atrocious. Completely atrocious by the defensive secondary and defensive line, I thought our LBs were OK - but that was about it for that side of the ball. Pees called a poor game and failed to make key adjustments. 

 

I will not put this on Flacco - but two throws in particular had me scratching my head. Completely under throwing a wide open receiver for what was a sure fire touchdown, and then for a second time in two weeks, blundering away a second game winning TD in two weeks due to poor execution with an experienced, number 1 receiver. What is going on there? Those errors were inexcusable for a veteran combination of that experience level. 

[ravensdfan]

Am I the only person on the planet that thought making Babin inactive for that game, when we desperately needed a pass rusher was a stupendously idiotic decision. Pass rushers are not the brightest light bulbs in the closet, and they don't need to get acquainted with the system ( or lack of ), you line them up and say go get the Quarterback. Just ask Dexter Manley, who couldn't read write or even sign his name, but he was a hell of a pass rusher. Babin's career is obviously on the down side, but if they didn't think he could help, then why in the world did they sign him.

It is possible he did not have the playbook down yet.

[GrimCoconut]

The worst thing about the game was the DL by far. They couldn't stop the runs up the middle because they did a great job eliminating Brandon Williams and it didn't seem like Jernigan or Guy could really keep the LBs clean. This problem was compounded by the fact that Daryl Smith missed quite a few tackles out there. I'm not saying Smith played bad, mind you. Then, guys like Arrington start to miss tackles and the problem gets worse. Will Hill & Lewis clearly have a problem with communication and don't call a TO. I think Carr saw this miscommunication and smartly exploited it because he quickly snapped the ball after their exchange. 

 

We just looked lost and sloppy. No two ways about it at all. I think we're better than we played, but we have to play up to it. 

[BmoreBird22]

I agree with everything you're saying. I'm in no way saying Flacco was poor in that game. I'm just pointing out plays that I'm sure when he watched the film he expected to make. Flacco would be much better with better weapons. But i also believe Flacco is good enough to help develop the current guys and hope that Perriman is everything they hope he is. But that still doesn't take away the fact that the plays i pointed out needs to be made and more often then not the Elite guys make them. Hell Joe make them in the playoffs but January Joe showing up in the regular season would be good enough to carry this team even when the defense sucks. Not his fault at all but he definitely had some plays he'd want back. He can't ask these guys to make the unbelievable catches that Boldin and Pitta have made before because as everyone had pointed out, they aren't them. So that means Flacco has to sharpen his game until those guy get up to par.

You can say if that is another guy other then Gilmore he makes the play and that's definitely true because Pitta has made that play before. However my point is the ball placement could have and should have been better. Did Joe give his guy a shot? Yes but he also gave the defender who was beat enough that he couldn't even get his head around, a shot to make a play as well. Joe has made that throw many times before so it's a bit frustrating to see him lob it like that and reduce the chances of it being a successful play. He asked Gilmore to make a tougher catch then what needed to be.

Trust me, I'm sure there are several more throws that you didn't name that I bet he wishes he could have back. One that comes to mind is a deep route to Aiken. I can't remember exactly how the play went down, but I just remember Aiken on the ground trying to come back to a ball. Would have been a difficult catch, but if Flacco had thrown with more power downfield, it would have gone for a touchdown. Now, as I can't remember exactly what happened on the play, I can't say whether or not the Ravens scored.

 

I'm just honestly glad Joe has finally gotten weapons. Drafting Perriman and Williams is truly the first time I could ever say the Ravens made a great effort to actually land a weapon for Joe. Pitta is the only other successful weapon they've drafted and he was a fourth round pick that happened to work out. That's not going to happen all that often. I was really hopeful to get Tyler Boyd next year, but there may be more pressing needs that they'll need to address before receiver. 

 

However, I will say with some of those throws, like the one to Aiken and to Waller, you have to wonder how much preseason played into that. I honestly can't remember a single deep pass from Joe in preseason. Now, I'm sure they happened (maybe), but it certainly wasn't with consistency. Could that have been due to wanting to learn Trestman's offense better? Maybe, but it would have been really awesome to see some shots taken when the games have absolutely no meaning. It would have been great for developing some better chemistry.

[PurpleCity5]

Cmon we know damn well Aiken is no #5 WR. Hes def. a #3 IMO but much better than people make him out to be. Outside of SSS he stepped up to the plate at least and made big plays. He could've been more effective if Flacco didn't miss him a couple. This could have been a huge breakout game for him.

Edited September 22, 2015 by PurpleCity5

[ravensdfan]

Cmon we know damn well Aiken is #5 WR. Hes def. a #3 IMO but much better than people make him out to be. Outside of SSS he stepped up to the plate at least and made big plays. He could've been more effective if Flacco didn't miss him a couple. This could have been a huge breakout game for him.

He can't get separation at all. The only reason he was open in the 2nd half is that they were double teaming Gilmore.That is what opened him up, not his play. I don't believe he is a #3 at all. Probably a #4.

Edited September 22, 2015 by ravensdfan

[Ravensfan23]

Yeah not really knocking Trestman too badly, he is still feeling his way and like you said, the game plan this week was very different from last week. We're not stuck in a rut like with Cam.

 

I will have to disagree about the talent for receiving options though. Gilmore played well until they double teamed him and then could not make himself a target at all. Top TEs find a way. Aiken is a journeyman and Brown a UDFA. These are #4 and #5 guys (highest possibly a #3 - but this isn't proven yet). These are our starters outside of Smith Sr. That is a pretty sorry state of affairs for a franchise QB that has been here for 8 years. There are no excuses IMO for not having weapons here well before now.

But that's the point. Why force the ball to any player if he's being doubled if you don't have to? I'm not saying the talent around Joe is great, but i think it's good and definitely better then most give them credit for. The key to it all is how Trestman gets the most out of these guys. That's honestly what i'm banking on and what i think the Ravens are banking on.

I'd be foolish to think that Brown, Aiken, Camp and Gilmore are great players. However they are "good enough" and should be solid complimentary players to Perriman and Maxx if they are the players you drafted them to do. People act like the weapons in the offense are completely usless because they were high draft picks or drafted at all. Imo the idea of the offense is to draft a few studs, Flacco, Perriman, Yanda and Williams are those guys you hope fill that role. Then surround them with solid but interchangeable pieces like Gilmore, Aiken, Brown, Taliaferro, Allen, Camp and others much like they've built the defense. The issue is all those guys are young so you are gonna go through some growing pains. There are gonna be some ugly games like the Broncos game, but don't be surprised to see this offense light up both the Bengals and Steelers the next two weeks and not necessarily because the talent is so great but because Trestman does a great job of creating favorable matchups and these guys are "good enough" to take advantage of this matchups. The good thing is all these guys are young and should be able to stick around to develop with Flacco.

[ravensdfan]

But that's the point. Why force the ball to any player if he's being doubled if you don't have to? I'm not saying the talent around Joe is great, but i think it's good and definitely better then most give them credit for. The key to it all is how Trestman gets the most out of these guys. That's honestly what i'm banking on and what i think the Ravens are banking on.

I'd be foolish to think that Brown, Aiken, Camp and Gilmore are great players. However they are "good enough" and should be solid complimentary players to Perriman and Maxx if they are the players you drafted them to do. People act like the weapons in the offense are completely usless because they were high draft picks or drafted at all. Imo the idea of the offense is to draft a few studs, Flacco, Perriman, Yanda and Williams are those guys you hope fill that role. Then surround them with solid but interchangeable pieces like Gilmore, Aiken, Brown, Taliaferro, Allen, Camp and others much like they've built the defense. The issue is all those guys are young so you are gonna go through some growing pains. There are gonna be some ugly games like the Broncos game, but don't be surprised to see this offense light up both the Bengals and Steelers the next two weeks and not necessarily because the talent is so great but because Trestman does a great job of creating favorable matchups and these guys are "good enough" to take advantage of this matchups. The good thing is all these guys are young and should be able to stick around to develop with Flacco.

We are definitely missing a Perriman like player for this offense and Williams just is not quite ready or got outshined right now by Gilmore, not sure which is a fact. If they are as advertised you could be right that Aiken & Brown will be enough of a supporting cast. I guess the point I was trying to make is it should not have taken us 8 years. That guy - not a 36 yr old - should have been here already. We knew pretty early that Torrey was not going to be that guy. I watch all these other teams build their supporting cast - shoot the Bengals gave Dalton a feast, Dalton! - but we just sit with the status quo and then want to criticize Flacco when he gets little help outside of Smith Sr or because he feeds him since that is who he trusts. Flacco said it best last week about the INT play to Smith Sr. "I knew he had a one on one match-up and you gotta trust Steve in those situations. This time it didn't work out."  As much as Flacco says he trusts these guys - I don't see him spreading it out as much as he always has in the past.

[ravensdan]

First time for everything right? In the end someone has to be held accountable.

That is a really out of touch statement. There is no question or debate Harbaugh is one of the very best coaches in the NFL and hopefully he stays another 10-15 years.

[ravensdan]

Webb was burned left and right, 3 man rushes all over the place, ZERO SACKS...but we're talking about Flacco. LOL. This is crazy.

Don't forget about Jimmy smith also getting beat. The defense was bad against a bad team.

[ravensdan]

He was only thrown to once and on the one play he was thrown to it was under thrown and he was interfered with.

He didn't run a good route and left no where for the QB to go. He is a very raw player.

[BmoreBird22]

Don't forget about Jimmy smith also getting beat. The defense was bad against a bad team.

In defense of the secondary, the pass rush was non existent and the defensive line looked like they had no interest in playing.