Trestman's Offense: Good, Bad, or Otherwise?

[Ravensfan23]

Definitely moved the ball better when Camp was in there. Getting Juice and the TE's involved is a must. On the outside I'd go with SSS, M Brown and Camp with just a sprinkle of Aiken if they must.lol.

I've said plenty of times during the offseason that Marlon Brown would be the #2 throughout the season this year and i'm not ready to back down off that. I've also called Aiken a JAG a few times which i don't veiw as a knock. He did some good things out there yesterday. I know Aiken has said he wants to prove he is a downfield guy because he was that guy in college but i just don't see it. He's that guy who will live in tight spaces and make those contested catches. His best opportunity came on the first drive with the Slant that Joe missed because of pressure. He missed some assignments in the running game that was a bit of a surprise to me because he's usually really good in that area.

I don't wanna come down on any of the WR just yet because the oline was so poor. But all those guys need to be ready to ball and make plays that are available. The Raiders defense is no where near as good as Denver outside. This should be a get healthy game for the offense.

[Ravensfan23]

A deep shot or 2 against those weak safeties wouldn't have hurt. Waller has speed to be a threat instead of those 0 yard pass plays to the flat.

Based on what Harbs said in his presser, you were on to something. He said they had a couple plays drawn up for Waller but really couldn't get to them. They just never got into a rhythm.

[cobrajet]

To me, Trestman's playcalling was nothing like Cam's. He did try multiple ways to beat Denver's defense, from using motion, to spreading things out, and using max protection. The problem wasn't really the playcalling. It was that the Raven's WRs simply couldn't beat Denver's man coverage, and their pass rushers were flat out better than the Ravens' offensive tackles. The Ravens were simply outclassed there, and there wasn't really a way around that.

I have to respectfully disagree. It felt like we ran it 90% on first down and they knew to just stack the box.  On third down they blitzed because it was third and long way too much. I saw no play action at all. The quick screens were to our guys standing like statues on the line for no gain. I don't think Joe rolled out once. We are all talking about Cam Cameron because it was the same predictability. I thought they could use the big man (Juice) in the backfield to help with protection. He can certainly bang a blitzer and then be there for a short screen to locamotive to the sideline sticks. Since Joe was under so much pressure I would have liked to see us use Campanero for some quick slants. That is just some of the thing you can do keep a blitzing team honest. That is why blitzing does not work against Brady and the Pats, because he will tear you up with the quick short stuff. You are right about our receivers getting separation. Talib is like Sherman, he can man up on most receivers. Their DB's are pretty good.

Edited September 14, 2015 by cobrajet

[Purple_City39]

Based on what Harbs said in his presser, you were on to something. He said they had a couple plays drawn up for Waller but really couldn't get to them. They just never got into a rhythm.

They should have just went for it.  Not like anything else was working.

[flynismo]

It was one game

[flynismo]

First impression was okay. I liked a lot of his calls, I love that he stuck with the running game instead of going pass happy. Would like to have seen more adjustments on the line, more screen passes to keep the pass rush honest (even though the few he did call were snuffed out anyway, thanks OL).

[jazz1988]

this denver teams D line is legit

 

20 sacks in pre season

 

they are going to make teams lives a misery.

 

we can't afford to have a guy like jeremy zuttah who can't pass block to save his life against that lo

 

Last time I check Zuttah wasn't really bad as pass blocker but just about all our offensive line had a bad day yesterday.

Edited September 15, 2015 by jazz1988

[Bltravens]

I didn't like how Trestman didn't throw any HB screens.  The most effective pay to pull back guys just pass rushing without any semblance of responsibilities is hammering them with a few HB screens.  Ware wasn't even reading keys or anything yesterday, just blowing around the edge and it was single high safety for an absurd amount of snaps.

[Ravensfan23]

I didn't like how Trestman didn't throw any HB screens.  The most effective pay to pull back guys just pass rushing without any semblance of responsibilities is hammering them with a few HB screens.  Ware wasn't even reading keys or anything yesterday, just blowing around the edge and it was single high safety for an absurd amount of snaps.

That's just not true. The Broncos were very discipline with their rush, it just seemed like they were reckless because of how fast they got pressure. If Ware came flying in, i promise you there was a LB or S covering the back or the flat.

Also they did run an HB screen and Flacco was hit so fast that the screen never had a chance to develop. So it just looked like a 4 yard pass to Juice. Their LBs played very well and they had the offense scouted very well. That's where the Kubiak affect showed up because they just really had to game plan against themselves. Trestman didn't have nearly enough time in thw offense to develop a gameplan that would look unfamiliar to Kubes. If you can win the LOS against a Kubiak offense and your LBs stay discipline it'll be hard for that offense to succeed.

Go back and watch the game. Those guys played the back side bokt action all day, which is why Flacco could never complete a bootleg. They sat on the RBs out of the backfield all game which is why Trestman tried flexing the RB out wide at times but that just meant less protection for Joe. So you couldn't do that often.

Trestman's influence will be on the passing game but the running game is still exactly what it was under Kubes and that put the Ravens at a huge disadvantage for "this" game, because the oline wasn't up to par. They definitely could have run more screens and draws but when they did try Flacco was still getting hit.

[Bltravens]

That's just not true. The Broncos were very discipline with their rush, it just seemed like they were reckless because of how fast they got pressure. If Ware came flying in, i promise you there was a LB or S covering the back or the flat.

Also they did run an HB screen and Flacco was hit so fast that the screen never had a chance to develop. So it just looked like a 4 yard pass to Juice. Their LBs played very well and they had the offense scouted very well. That's where the Kubiak affect showed up because they just really had to game plan against themselves. Trestman didn't have nearly enough time in thw offense to develop a gameplan that would look unfamiliar to Kubes. If you can win the LOS against a Kubiak offense and your LBs stay discipline it'll be hard for that offense to succeed.

Go back and watch the game. Those guys played the back side bokt action all day, which is why Flacco could never complete a bootleg. They sat on the RBs out of the backfield all game which is why Trestman tried flexing the RB out wide at times but that just meant less protection for Joe. So you couldn't do that often.

Trestman's influence will be on the passing game but the running game is still exactly what it was under Kubes and that put the Ravens at a huge disadvantage for "this" game, because the oline wasn't up to par. They definitely could have run more screens and draws but when they did try Flacco was still getting hit.

That's why the screen works, because the safety is singled up with the HB and the edge rush goes flying in with no responsibilities.  All it takes is a push from the LG and LT and you have two lineman on a safety.  They played backside all day for sure because Kubiak knows the bootleg, but I'm talking just a simple screen.  Ware over his entire career has been known as a top calibre pass rusher and an average run/screen defender for a reason.

 

Im not worried about Trestman, I watched him carve up CFL defenses for 5 years, he knows what he's doing.  I was just questioning why he didn't use more HB screens to get the blitz to back off.

[usmccharles]

Elite defense, or no, we had an easy shot to win the game, and failed.

 

The Denver D was not so tuff, that's an excuse.

 

Our so called receiving corps just failed to catch the football.

Nothing about that game was easy.  Nothing. 

 

Based on what Harbs said in his presser, you were on to something. He said they had a couple plays drawn up for Waller but really couldn't get to them. They just never got into a rhythm.

I dont think thats a good excuse.  How many three and outs was it going to take to realize we werent getting in a rhythm, a deep show to waller could of drawn a PI or he could of actually caught it and changed the game.  We wont know without at least attempting it. 

 

 

Edit* If Waller didnt get a shot with BP sitting out, i cant imagine he gets a shot when he comes back. 

Edited September 15, 2015 by usmccharles

[Ravensfan23]

That's why the screen works, because the safety is singled up with the HB and the edge rush goes flying in with no responsibilities.  All it takes is a push from the LG and LT and you have two lineman on a safety.  They played backside all day for sure because Kubiak knows the bootleg, but I'm talking just a simple screen.  Ware over his entire career has been known as a top calibre pass rusher and an average run/screen defender for a reason.

 

Im not worried about Trestman, I watched him carve up CFL defenses for 5 years, he knows what he's doing.  I was just questioning why he didn't use more HB screens to get the blitz to back off.

The problem is you still need execution from the oline and while they weren't all bad they were mostly bad. When you have Flacco getting hit on screen passes before the lineman can even get out on the play, it's a problem.

Yea i don't worry about Trestman either. He was basically given another man's system to learn and run, then in his first game every was asked to beat that man. That's a tough task and if he had better play from his oline and backs the Ravens would have pulled it off.

[ravensdan]

Nothing about that game was easy. Nothing.

I dont think thats a good excuse. How many three and outs was it going to take to realize we werent getting in a rhythm, a deep show to waller could of drawn a PI or he could of actually caught it and changed the game. We wont know without at least attempting it.

Edit* If Waller didnt get a shot with BP sitting out, i cant imagine he gets a shot when he comes back.

Waller has been very poor with his releases. I doubt putting an inexperienced raw player in against these corners was a good answer. I didn't expect to see Waller. I think we expected Steve to be saavy enough to get open against talib who he has owned in the past more. He may just not have the juice at this point. Going to rewatch the quick game and watch closer. I've yet the see the end of the final drive my Sunday ticket suddenly went out so I have no input on what happened in the end zone there.

[KnowNoLimits]

It's Week 1

+1

[rmcjacket23]

Last time I check Zuttah wasn't really bad as pass blocker but just about all our offensive line had a bad day yesterday.

I know the PFF rankings said otherwise, but in real-time on Sunday, I thought he was our best Olineman.

 

And I thought Rick Wagner was the worst football player on the field.

[The Mom Gene]

I just want some of these guys to stand there....  Take a snap.... and count to 1.5 seconds...  and get rid of the ball to a designated receiver with Demarcus Ware or Von Miller in their face, or wrapped around their neck.  That is about the average amount of time that Joe had.  Not 3 or 4 like traditionally.  You'd never have time to get the read...  Some of the comments about "what Joe needed to do" or "what Trestman needed to do" are just crazy.

 

It was...  Snap/Toss...  or Snap/hand-off...  THAT FAST...  Come on Guys.

 

And to argue otherwise is not realistic...  EVERY analyst, EVERY former player, has commented about it.

[Drew P]

Waller has been very poor with his releases. I doubt putting an inexperienced raw player in against these corners was a good answer. I didn't expect to see Waller. I think we expected Steve to be saavy enough to get open against talib who he has owned in the past more. He may just not have the juice at this point. Going to rewatch the quick game and watch closer. I've yet the see the end of the final drive my Sunday ticket suddenly went out so I have no input on what happened in the end zone there.

 

Nothing else was working and at some point I would think the Ravens would change their culture of using WR's based on draft order and tenure in the league. Its worked well for NE and Pitt.

[HoldingCall]

Can't evaluate with the pressure they got. WR worries me though.

Can't evaluate WRs yet either. Routes had no time to develop, play calls sent them mostly down field. There were just a few quick release attempts and mostly toward the sideline.   

[jazz1988]

Nothing else was working and at some point I would think the Ravens would change their culture of using WR's based on draft order and tenure in the league. Its worked well for NE and Pitt.

 

I think The Ravens have changed alot when it comes to giving younger players especially receivers a chance to play. If this was 2010 -2013 a receiver like Reggie Wayne , Hakeem Nicks, and etc would have been on the team by now.

[Ravensfan23]

Nothing about that game was easy.  Nothing. 

 

I dont think thats a good excuse.  How many three and outs was it going to take to realize we werent getting in a rhythm, a deep show to waller could of drawn a PI or he could of actually caught it and changed the game.  We wont know without at least attempting it. 

 

 

Edit* If Waller didnt get a shot with BP sitting out, i cant imagine he gets a shot when he comes back.

Let's not act as if Waller is some game changer that you have to get on the field. He showsed some decent things in the preseason and practice but nothing that set the world on fire. No he's not gonna get many chances and even less when Perriman returns. The plays designed for Waller were probably buried down deep on the call sheet. If you aren't getting into an offensive rhythm you don't get a chance to call those plays. It probably was a redzone fade or 2 but the offense only got into the redzone once and that was at the end. I just can't see Waller getting much time unless it's a necessity. If active, he may have one or two attempts per game if the offense gets to him but he won't be a big part of the offense at all imo.

[Drew P]

Let's not act as if Waller is some game changer that you have to get on the field. He showsed some decent things in the preseason and practice but nothing that set the world on fire. No he's not gonna get many chances and even less when Perriman returns. The plays designed for Waller were probably buried down deep on the call sheet. If you aren't getting into an offensive rhythm you don't get a chance to call those plays. It probably was a redzone fade or 2 but the offense only got into the redzone once and that was at the end. I just can't see Waller getting much time unless it's a necessity. If active, he may have one or two attempts per game if the offense gets to him but he won't be a big part of the offense at all imo.

 

Perriman is an after thought at this point. I wouldn't count on him to see any action this year. Waller can do the same thing Torrey did in his first action and thats run the go route and move the safety to his side.

[Purple_City39]

Let's not act as if Waller is some game changer that you have to get on the field. He showsed some decent things in the preseason and practice but nothing that set the world on fire. No he's not gonna get many chances and even less when Perriman returns. The plays designed for Waller were probably buried down deep on the call sheet. If you aren't getting into an offensive rhythm you don't get a chance to call those plays. It probably was a redzone fade or 2 but the offense only got into the redzone once and that was at the end. I just can't see Waller getting much time unless it's a necessity. If active, he may have one or two attempts per game if the offense gets to him but he won't be a big part of the offense at all imo.

Having a deep threat vs not having a deep threat is actually a game changer.  Not saying he has to be a starter but getting him on the field and running deep makes a difference.  Whether he's playing a 2011 Torrey role (always on the field stretching defenses) or a 2012 Jacoby role (occasionally coming in to run deep), he needs to be used. 

 

I'm sure nobody wants to see the 2010 Ravens offense again, forcing deep passes to slow receivers or just not going deep.  Just look last year how the Steelers points per game jumped up after week 7, I think, when they actually started using Martvis Bryant on nothing but go routes.  That size and speed was lethal.  Waller's taller, bigger, and has better hands although slightly slower

 

[Ravensfan23]

Perriman is an after thought at this point. I wouldn't count on him to see any action this year. Waller can do the same thing Torrey did in his first action and thats run the go route and move the safety to his side.

If Perriman was an after thought they would have IRed him. You and many others are missing the point. Torrey may have been running primary deep routes as a rookie but he was a starter and the offense needed him to do that. However he still had to run other routes in games to set up those deep throws. NFL defenders are too smart and too good to just panic because a 6'6 guy with speed is running a go route. Those routes have to be set up and Waller has proven he should be on the field over the other 4 guys right now. Now if Brown, Aiken or Camp prove they can't get the job done and Perriman isn't back I'm sure Waller will be given a shot. But right now he'd be lucky to get a handful of snaps on offense in any game.

The reason why the back shoulder was available to Marlon was because they had been working on Talib the whole first half to take a shot at him. He and Marlon battled a lot and because Marlon had beat him a few times it forced Talib to stay on the top of Brown's route. I actually would have loved to see the Trestman work that matchup a bit more. What you are saying Waller would have done, Brown did and they had some good looks but Flacco either didn't have the time to go through his reads or had a quicker option. Flacco was never comfortable enough in the pocket to go down field.

[usmccharles]

Let's not act as if Waller is some game changer that you have to get on the field. He showsed some decent things in the preseason and practice but nothing that set the world on fire. No he's not gonna get many chances and even less when Perriman returns. The plays designed for Waller were probably buried down deep on the call sheet. If you aren't getting into an offensive rhythm you don't get a chance to call those plays. It probably was a redzone fade or 2 but the offense only got into the redzone once and that was at the end. I just can't see Waller getting much time unless it's a necessity. If active, he may have one or two attempts per game if the offense gets to him but he won't be a big part of the offense at all imo.

I'm not saying waller is a game changer, but we don't know he isn't. I'm not saying he's the next Megatron, I'm just saying he provides speed to take the top of the defense wish we need. A couple plays a game worked in shouldn't be hard

[Ravensfan23]

Having a deep threat vs not having a deep threat is actually a game changer.  Not saying he has to be a starter but getting him on the field and running deep makes a difference.  Whether he's playing a 2011 Torrey role (always on the field stretching defenses) or a 2012 Jacoby role (occasionally coming in to run deep), he needs to be used. 

 

I'm sure nobody wants to see the 2010 Ravens offense again, forcing deep passes to slow receivers or just not going deep.  Just look last year how the Steelers points per game jumped up after week 7, I think, when they actually started using Martvis Bryant on nothing but go routes.  That size and speed was lethal.  Waller's taller, bigger, and has better hands although slightly slower

Spreading and opening up the field was not the issue vs the Broncos. The Ravens had plenty of space and open WRs but no time to get the ball to them. On the final drive alone Flacco had Smith open in the end zone but quick pressure forced bad throws. On the pick 6 he had Aiken matched up on a Safety and Aiken won to the inside with nothing but space between him and the endzone if breaks the initial tackle. As I've pointed out Joe had Brown open for a couple big plays down field, both Williams and Gilmore had space over the middle on a couple plays in the 2nd half but they were 2nd window throws and Joe didn't have time to get it to them. Guys getting open wasn't wasn't the issue pass protection was.

You can't compare this offense to 2010 or the Steelers because it's different. Trestman's offense does a great job of creating space with route combos and isolating individual defenders. The trio of Marshall, Jeffery and Bennett doesn't have blazing speed but they were still able to make a ton of plays down field foe Trestman in 2013 and they were one of the most explosive offenses. Cam lacked creativity in 2010, Trestman doesn't. He puts a ton of pressure on the defense to vacate areas. I'm not saying Waller shouldn't be given a opportunity to show what he can do, but having him involved in the offense vs the Broncos wouldn't have helped much imo because what you would have been hoping for with Waller was already available, the offense just couldn't take advantge of it.

[Drew P]

If Perriman was an after thought they would have IRed him. You and many others are missing the point. Torrey may have been running primary deep routes as a rookie but he was a starter and the offense needed him to do that. However he still had to run other routes in games to set up those deep throws. NFL defenders are too smart and too good to just panic because a 6'6 guy with speed is running a go route. Those routes have to be set up and Waller has proven he should be on the field over the other 4 guys right now. Now if Brown, Aiken or Camp prove they can't get the job done and Perriman isn't back I'm sure Waller will be given a shot. But right now he'd be lucky to get a handful of snaps on offense in any game.

The reason why the back shoulder was available to Marlon was because they had been working on Talib the whole first half to take a shot at him. He and Marlon battled a lot and because Marlon had beat him a few times it forced Talib to stay on the top of Brown's route. I actually would have loved to see the Trestman work that matchup a bit more. What you are saying Waller would have done, Brown did and they had some good looks but Flacco either didn't have the time to go through his reads or had a quicker option. Flacco was never comfortable enough in the pocket to go down field.

 

IR to return is 8 weeks the end of Oct. will be 8 weeks. Torrey didnt start until game 3. Look what Martavis Bryant did last year he wasnt "setup" they plugged him in and he became a deep threat immediately...why? Because they played him. Point is the Ravens haven't developed WR's in their entire 20 years. You draft them you should play them.

[Ravensfan23]

I'm not saying waller is a game changer, but we don't know he isn't. I'm not saying he's the next Megatron, I'm just saying he provides speed to take the top of the defense wish we need. A couple plays a game worked in shouldn't be hard

No doubt but he's not a top of the rotation guy, so those couple shots a game will come once the pffense gets into a rhythm like it did in the 2nd half. Chances are if the Broncos wouldn't have held the ball for 11:00 minutes of a 15:00 minute 4th quarter we may have seen a play drawn up for Waller. Or if you get into a rhythm and get a feel for a couple of shot plays then we may have seen Waller. But again getting open wasn't an issue, that was just the narrative of the commentators because of Torrey and Perriman. The lack of speed wasn't an issue. Poor execution from your oline and RBs in pass pro was.

[Ravensfan23]

IR to return is 8 weeks the end of Oct. will be 8 weeks. Torrey didnt start until game 3. Look what Martavis Bryant did last year he wasnt "setup" they plugged him in and he became a deep threat immediately...why? Because they played him. Point is the Ravens haven't developed WR's in their entire 20 years. You draft them you should play them.

They plugged him in out of necessity. Bryant wasn't a big part of their offense early. If it becomes a necessity to use Waller just like Evans getting hurt made it a necessity to use Smith i'm sure Wallee will see plenty of time. And if Waller was just blowing the top off coverage in practice and preseason games im sure the coaches would have more then a couple plays for him. The moment Perriman comes back he'll be used accordingly.

IRDTR is 10 weeks which would be a total of 11 weeks for the Ravens with thw bye. If Perriman was out of mind he would've be placed on IRDTR to free up a roster spot and they would have made plans to permanently fill his role. If Waller was that guy he'd be that guy. I'm not saying Waller is a bum and shouldn't be given a chance to play. He's just not as good as the top 4 right now and 5 once Perriman returns in the coaches eyes. Your 5th or 6th WR isn't gonna get much play especially when your offense isn't rolling. Let's see how things go vs Oak.

[Purple_City39]

Spreading and opening up the field was not the issue vs the Broncos. The Ravens had plenty of space and open WRs but no time to get the ball to them. On the final drive alone Flacco had Smith open in the end zone but quick pressure forced bad throws. On the pick 6 he had Aiken matched up on a Safety and Aiken won to the inside with nothing but space between him and the endzone if breaks the initial tackle. As I've pointed out Joe had Brown open for a couple big plays down field, both Williams and Gilmore had space over the middle on a couple plays in the 2nd half but they were 2nd window throws and Joe didn't have time to get it to them. Guys getting open wasn't wasn't the issue pass protection was.

You can't compare this offense to 2010 or the Steelers because it's different. Trestman's offense does a great job of creating space with route combos and isolating individual defenders. The trio of Marshall, Jeffery and Bennett doesn't have blazing speed but they were still able to make a ton of plays down field foe Trestman in 2013 and they were one of the most explosive offenses. Cam lacked creativity in 2010, Trestman doesn't. He puts a ton of pressure on the defense to vacate areas. I'm not saying Waller shouldn't be given a opportunity to show what he can do, but having him involved in the offense vs the Broncos wouldn't have helped much imo because what you would have been hoping for with Waller was already available, the offense just couldn't take advantge of it.

My comment wasn't specific to the Broncos game.  It was on the season as a whole while Perriman is out.  Every team benefits from a deep threat.  The Bears were good but if they had someone to stretch the defense they could have been better.  The comparison to 2010 and the Steelers can be made because. like 2010, we don't have a deep threat right now and like the Steelers to start 2014, we have a fast and big target sitting on the bench.

 

Oh and yes, Marshall, Jeffrey, and Bennett were not speed guys but they outmuscled DBs.  SSS just got out muscled by Talib on the pick 6 and none of the other WRs have shown to be physical enough for that comparison.  People talk about Aiken being a younger Boldin but it hasn't shown at all

[jazz1988]

Perriman is an after thought at this point. I wouldn't count on him to see any action this year. Waller can do the same thing Torrey did in his first action and thats run the go route and move the safety to his side.

 

He probably could play that role it's just unclear if he can do that good enough to get safeties attention.