The good, bad and ugly vs Broncos

[rmw10]

If you ever wanted to pick a game where coaching was a limited factor, this was it.

The Ravens lost this game almost entirely due to Miller and Ware taking Hurst and Wagner to the woodshed. It would have been nearly impossible to double either, let alone both. And by doing so, you sacrifice or delay eligible receivers. It's an addage almost as old as the forward pass that the ability to create 4-man pressure is the easiest path to defensive dominance.

Even during the final drive 16-play drive when the Denver pass rush should have been tired, Hurst gave up 6 pressure events and Wagner 5!

The Ravens didn't get outcoached, they got outplayed.

Curious to see how you rated Webb. I've seen the extreme saying he's done, but I thought he was alright, probably below average if I had to say. He's definitely not the 2011 version of Webb, but I thought it was an improvement over the 2014 Webb.

[Filmstudy]

Curious to see how you rated Webb. I've seen the extreme saying he's done, but I thought he was alright, probably below average if I had to say. He's definitely not the 2011 version of Webb, but I thought it was an improvement over the 2014 Webb.

 

I thought he was probably the most tentative in the secondary, but I'd agree, he played better than last year.  If we're talking expectations for Webb alone for the year, mine went way up after game 1.  He played OK after missing the whole preseason!

 

Here is my article on the defense if you are interested:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/09/14/filmstudy/ravens-defensive-notes-v-broncos/

 

Individually (and setting aside Suggs), Upshaw is my biggest concern with the additional high-leverage snaps he'll be playing this year.

[arnie_uk]

Upshaw was downright awful I thought and he seemed to playing a hell of a lot of snaps even before suggs got injured. I'll now read your defensive analysis to see of that agrees with what you saw.

[Sami84]

upshaw seems to get a pass here..

 

he's a very limited player to be such a used cog. he's just not athletic at all..

 

I always preferred hightower over him. If we were going to go Bama that year in the draft it should have been hightower over upshaw.

[usmccharles]

upshaw seems to get a pass here..

 

he's a very limited player to be such a used cog. he's just not athletic at all..

 

I always preferred hightower over him. If we were going to go Bama that year in the draft it should have been hightower over upshaw.

This.  I dont watch college football hardly ever.  But when we drafted Upshaw and i saw the tape of him and Hightower, i thought from the eye test hightower looked like a difference maker and upshaw looked like just a plug in the defense.  Something about his build just doesnt do it for me, he doesnt look like hes athletic, i hope im wrong. 

[Sami84]

agreed. He just looks like he can't move..

 

looks like the build of a guy who could have played NT by gaining weight than ever playing OLB

[BmoreBird22]

upshaw seems to get a pass here..

 

he's a very limited player to be such a used cog. he's just not athletic at all..

 

I always preferred hightower over him. If we were going to go Bama that year in the draft it should have been hightower over upshaw.

 

 

This.  I dont watch college football hardly ever.  But when we drafted Upshaw and i saw the tape of him and Hightower, i thought from the eye test hightower looked like a difference maker and upshaw looked like just a plug in the defense.  Something about his build just doesnt do it for me, he doesnt look like hes athletic, i hope im wrong. 

I think most of us did want Hightower over Upshaw, but the Ravens didn't have a chance unless they wanted to trade up

[usmccharles]

I think most of us did want Hightower over Upshaw, but the Ravens didn't have a chance unless they wanted to trade up

Oh yea thats right, he was taken a bit ahead of us.  Who else was there around upshaw being drafted that would of made sense.  Not trying to play the "what if" game, just curious on what options were there.

[BmoreBird22]

 

"Soft zone" from my interpretation meaning sitting off with no pressure. Yes, in prior games 10 yds was not an exagerration but the reality. With no pressure, those were easy plays. On Jimmy's play it was an outstanding job by him reading Peyton and breaking on the ball but that throw was forced by Pees having 7 at the line, dropping 2, and Arrington's quick pressure and hit on the QB. Dare I say a zone blitz? That's when the zone is at it's best. When we rushed three, Peyton took his time to make completions.

I've rarely seen Pees do it with a safety and I noticed it a handful of times Sunday. I'll generalize and say that people's biggest issues with Pees is that he will not bring pressure consistently and he'll go vanilla late in games, which allows teams back into it. He did something outside of his norm on Sunday. Claiming he's always done so is not valid with what I, or others, have seen in the past. Players gave Pees credit for having an excellent game plan and talked about disguising their coverages and blitzes. That hasn't happened all the time.

There are also things Trestman could have done to help his floundering tackles, things that John Harbaugh addressed. It's not ONLY execution.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Transcripts-Ravens-Media-Availability-914/d6c07f29-19a7-44b7-96de-485b37bc4eca

From my interpretation, it is them saying that they don't want to see the receivers play off the man so far. They usually couple it by saying they hate that soft man crap and want to see press man. And no, I'd be willing to bet (if it were allowed) that the receivers will not play 10 yards off unless the down and distance dictates it (i.e. 3rd and 20). 

 

On that play, Norwood was wide open. Yes, the pressure did force him to probably throw the ball faster than he would have liked, but Jimmy was four or so yards off when that ball was thrown. And my point is that that's exactly what happens when you combine pressure with a competent player. 

 

People see what they want to see. It is a proven fact. So, for most people, they wanted to see that Pees system was failing, so in most cases, if the blitz failed, they wouldn't see it as a blitz, but normal pressure and they'd view that as Pees not being aggressive. If a four man rush resulted in an interception, it's because Pees schemed up pressure. 

 

I suppose it isn't fair to say that he blitzed as much as he did Sunday, but it wasn't much more and the looks weren't terribly different. I can't say I saw the safety walking down on a consistent basis, but I do remember discussing last year how often the Ravens blitzed last year because it literally changed nothing stat wise. The Ravens produced more sacks (obviously), but they were giving up a slightly higher YPA, higher completion percentage, and the same number of touchdowns were allowed, and the same number of interceptions were produced. He was blitzing about 33% of the time with no difference.

 

However, again, this year, we're seeing a lot of the same with how much he's blitzing and we're seeing a lot of similar looks to last year, but it's far more efficient because the players can actually cover worth a damn. This secondary is very competent compared to last year when guys like Gorrer and Melvin were relied on as number two corners.

It'd just be a real stretch to say anything like Pees is more aggressive because it's not like we're seeing him blitz 50% of the time as compared to 30% last year. I'd imagine it's pretty close, honestly.

 

The three man rushes don't bother me because in theory, Denver's line was supposed to be pretty bad and when you have Terrell Suggs and Dumervil, coupled with a guy like Davis, who really showed up as a pass rusher, or Brandon Williams, who just eats blocks for breakfast, you should be able to get pressure. I know the commentators pointed it out twice, but I'm sure the Ravens rushed three more than just two times. I don't like rushing three, but it's a way to vary looks.

I don't think I'd call that a zone blitz because the linebackers were the ones to drop into coverage, but I suppose it could be. I would say it's reasonable to say that all the blockers concerned the young lineman and allowed Arrington to come in free to force Manning to throw it hot, but I don't know that that particular play was a zone blitz. It's kinda irrelevant because it was a well drawn up play regardless.

 

I don't think he's saying that the Ravens should have used more blockers or anything like that. I think he's actually commenting on the execution of the chips and the backs blocking. Forsett was atrocious in blocking. Plus, you have to consider, Wagner and Hurst were both absolutely destroyed. What do you do? Double team both of them? Then you're running a two tight end/two wide receiver set to keep Forsett in to block. Then you just limit your targets. So, then you probably want to run a three/one, but then Hurst or Wagner gets beat and Joe doesn't get the time to actually throw to the three wide receivers. This is really a game where I can say the Ravens simply got flat out beat on the field, not from a coaching standpoint. 

[BmoreBird22]

Oh yea thats right, he was taken a bit ahead of us.  Who else was there around upshaw being drafted that would of made sense.  Not trying to play the "what if" game, just curious on what options were there.

I personally would have been happy with Harrison Smith, Cordy Glenn, or Alshon Jeffrey. Jeffrey was actually on the top of my wish list for that draft. With hindsight being 20/20, Bobby Wagner and LaVonte David would have been good picks. I'm not sure how David would do in a 3-4, honestly, but he's been a beast in Tampa.

[JEEPercreepermd]

btw, we ran a play action fake roll out early on the first drive, Flacco nearly got killed and had 1 second to throw it.

Play action was scary, those OLB's were playing the QB every down and reacting to the run, so there was no bite on the run fake...

[stampedehero]

It is what it is  On to the next. Its only the first game.  

In retrospect: We played even on D with them.  Shut down pasty face.  Taliqs play came when they needed the intercept. Jimmy played up to his status.  Joe had no go to routes for this Denver D.  Didn't the O coaches study vids prior to the game?.  I would have had Gil at the back end zone line and have another reciever nearby in case we needed the extra hands or to block if Gil could not hold it.  Perhaps another player out of the red zone like Juice for a dump pass.

I think the O coaches should be on the hot seat for this tough loss. . 

[Edgar]

Defense and in particular the secondary does appear to have improved but unless Webb steps it up or a replacement is found at corner, we will continue to struggle getting off the field.

Webb appears to me a weak link to be exploited by quarterbacks who throw the ball more than fifteen yards accurately.

[rmw10]

I thought he was probably the most tentative in the secondary, but I'd agree, he played better than last year.  If we're talking expectations for Webb alone for the year, mine went way up after game 1.  He played OK after missing the whole preseason!

 

Here is my article on the defense if you are interested:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/09/14/filmstudy/ravens-defensive-notes-v-broncos/

 

Individually (and setting aside Suggs), Upshaw is my biggest concern with the additional high-leverage snaps he'll be playing this year.

 

Awesone, thanks.

 

That's pretty much what I had thought.  It wasn't a good performance by any stretch, but I didn't think it was awful.  I was actually a little encouraged because it was an improvement over last year.  I'm hoping the tentativeness can be attributed to the fact that this is his first game.  I realize we're never going to get the shutdown Webb back, but if we could get an average version, I'd be okay with that.

[usmccharles]

I thought he was probably the most tentative in the secondary, but I'd agree, he played better than last year. If we're talking expectations for Webb alone for the year, mine went way up after game 1. He played OK after missing the whole preseason!

Here is my article on the defense if you are interested:

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/09/14/filmstudy/ravens-defensive-notes-v-broncos/

Individually (and setting aside Suggs), Upshaw is my biggest concern with the additional high-leverage snaps he'll be playing this year.

Liked the article. Makes me excited to for this defense, even though I already was.

[PurpleCity5]

Curious to see how you rated Webb. I've seen the extreme saying he's done, but I thought he was alright, probably below average if I had to say. He's definitely not the 2011 version of Webb, but I thought it was an improvement over the 2014 Webb.

As the game picked up he did a much better job IMO.

[berad]

From my interpretation, it is them saying that they don't want to see the receivers play off the man so far. They usually couple it by saying they hate that soft man crap and want to see press man. And no, I'd be willing to bet (if it were allowed) that the receivers will not play 10 yards off unless the down and distance dictates it (i.e. 3rd and 20). 

 

On that play, Norwood was wide open. Yes, the pressure did force him to probably throw the ball faster than he would have liked, but Jimmy was four or so yards off when that ball was thrown. And my point is that that's exactly what happens when you combine pressure with a competent player. 

 

People see what they want to see. It is a proven fact. So, for most people, they wanted to see that Pees system was failing, so in most cases, if the blitz failed, they wouldn't see it as a blitz, but normal pressure and they'd view that as Pees not being aggressive. If a four man rush resulted in an interception, it's because Pees schemed up pressure. 

 

I suppose it isn't fair to say that he blitzed as much as he did Sunday, but it wasn't much more and the looks weren't terribly different. I can't say I saw the safety walking down on a consistent basis, but I do remember discussing last year how often the Ravens blitzed last year because it literally changed nothing stat wise. The Ravens produced more sacks (obviously), but they were giving up a slightly higher YPA, higher completion percentage, and the same number of touchdowns were allowed, and the same number of interceptions were produced. He was blitzing about 33% of the time with no difference.

 

However, again, this year, we're seeing a lot of the same with how much he's blitzing and we're seeing a lot of similar looks to last year, but it's far more efficient because the players can actually cover worth a damn. This secondary is very competent compared to last year when guys like Gorrer and Melvin were relied on as number two corners.

It'd just be a real stretch to say anything like Pees is more aggressive because it's not like we're seeing him blitz 50% of the time as compared to 30% last year. I'd imagine it's pretty close, honestly.

 

The three man rushes don't bother me because in theory, Denver's line was supposed to be pretty bad and when you have Terrell Suggs and Dumervil, coupled with a guy like Davis, who really showed up as a pass rusher, or Brandon Williams, who just eats blocks for breakfast, you should be able to get pressure. I know the commentators pointed it out twice, but I'm sure the Ravens rushed three more than just two times. I don't like rushing three, but it's a way to vary looks.

I don't think I'd call that a zone blitz because the linebackers were the ones to drop into coverage, but I suppose it could be. I would say it's reasonable to say that all the blockers concerned the young lineman and allowed Arrington to come in free to force Manning to throw it hot, but I don't know that that particular play was a zone blitz. It's kinda irrelevant because it was a well drawn up play regardless.

I just gave him credit for doing something I didn't see him do consistently in the past.

I don't think he's saying that the Ravens should have used more blockers or anything like that. I think he's actually commenting on the execution of the chips and the backs blocking. Forsett was atrocious in blocking. Plus, you have to consider, Wagner and Hurst were both absolutely destroyed. What do you do? Double team both of them? Then you're running a two tight end/two wide receiver set to keep Forsett in to block. Then you just limit your targets. So, then you probably want to run a three/one, but then Hurst or Wagner gets beat and Joe doesn't get the time to actually throw to the three wide receivers. This is really a game where I can say the Ravens simply got flat out beat on the field, not from a coaching standpoint.

The quote " We should’ve gotten to those a little bit more" implies that he's talking about the play-call/technique itself rather than the execution.

[Ravensfan23]

I thought he was probably the most tentative in the secondary, but I'd agree, he played better than last year.  If we're talking expectations for Webb alone for the year, mine went way up after game 1.  He played OK after missing the whole preseason!

 

Here is my article on the defense if you are interested:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/09/14/filmstudy/ravens-defensive-notes-v-broncos/

 

Individually (and setting aside Suggs), Upshaw is my biggest concern with the additional high-leverage snaps he'll be playing this year.

Nice article. It was a nice read and pretty consistent with what i saw. However I disagree with you about Upshaw. He didn't have a dominant performance in any area but he basically lined up at every position of the front 7 and was solid in his assignments. He did his job in most cases.

As it often seems a lot of Upshaw's work seemed to free up or help out others in the defense. On Mosley's first sack. It was Upshaw's rush that forced the G and C to double him freeing up C.J. He repeated took the seam option away from TEs by jamming them and riding them 5-7 yds before passing them onto the DBs. He lined up in space and handled himself well enough. I'm not sure which crossing patterns you were referring to but if the Sanders 3rd down in the first quarter was one i strongly disagree. You can't expect a guy lined up over the Guard to take away a cross from the slot. That's either a blown assignment or poor scheme.

If we're expecting Upshaw to be this explosive pass rush guy then I'd have issue with his play because he nor Suggs or Doom had a great impact in that area. But judging him from what Pees asked of him, there was nothing that gave me great concern. Upshaw played plenty and Suggs didn't leave until the final drive of the game. So i'm not sure it'll be Upshaw who plays more in Suggs' absence, someone else see increased snaps i believe.

[Edgar]

"They(Broncos defense) aren't playing the Baltimore Ravens, a static offense" - Phil Simms (Thursday night football)

[ravensdfan]

Well apparently we aren't as good as the Chiefs offensively, or OC wise - whichever.

[redrum52]

Two runs and then a pass. Sound familiar?

Cam's back?

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

How many times over the years have we seen this movie:

Insert new OC.....Offense plays like excrement, Defense steps up and plays lights out...repeat.....

[52520Andrew]

Arrowhead is a significant homefield advantage just like Mile High, it currently(unless Seattle retook it) holds the record for the loudest stadium. The last time we went into Arrowhead, we escaped 9-6, that was in 2012. They made the Patriots look silly there last year. Overall though the fact that Denver put up 24 offensive points(more than 12 that we gave up) reflects well on our defense as Kansas City has a great unit themselves. Offense has to improve of course but they have quite a history of putting up duds at some point in the regular season and usually respond the next week. 

[JEEPercreepermd]

Well apparently we aren't as good as the Chiefs offensively, or OC wise - whichever.

I'd take Andy Reid coaching our offense any day of the week.

Dude took some pretty mediocre Eagles teams to 5 NFC Championship games and a Super Bowl.

[usmccharles]

Can't expect trestman to come in and in our first game against a top defense without one of his main weapons to light the world on fire... Takes time

Edited September 18, 2015 by usmccharles

[The Mom Gene]

Well apparently we aren't as good as the Chiefs offensively, or OC wise - whichever.

 

I think it's pretty even....  if we aren't considered better.  They allowed 31 points (if you count the last seconds turnover and TD).  We allowed 19...  But KC allowed 3 TD's.  We allowed none.

 

Peyton was sacked 3 times last night....  We had 4 against him.

 

I mean...  KC would have won that game had Charles not coughed it up in the last 30 seconds...  But we could have too, if not for the jump ball in the endzone getting picked...

 I'm not sure I can say "They're better".....

 

And yeah...  We have a brand new O.C.

[Ravensfan23]

Can't expect trestman to come in and in our first game against a top defense without one of his main weapons to light the world on fire... Takes time

I think people should go watch Emmanuel Sanders post game show last night. They asked him about the offense starting slow the first two games. Hus response was that Kubiak is still learning his players and how they could fit the offense. He mention how he and DT missed a ton of practice and right now they're more comfortable with the few things that remain in the offense from last year more then what Kubes wants to do.

Now apply that to what Trestman is dealing with. 3/5 of the oline either missed a ton of pratice with injury or was slowed by injury. The oline never played in one preseason game together, Marlon Brown and Camp missed a ton of time, you have 3 really young and inexperienced TEs in many ways and not only does the players have to learn the offense, Trestman himself had to learn the offense.

I don't think people are putting enough attention into the fact that Trestman has to learn not only his player but the actual offense and the first time he's asked to call that offense in a real game it's against a group of coaches who know that offense in and out because IT WAS THERE OFFENSE!!!! I'm not saying Trestman couldn't have called a better game and did some things differently, but watching the Broncos defense for 2 games now you could clearly see they were 2 steps ahead of the Ravens because the coaches knew exactly what to look for in most cases. Against KC they were susceptible to the run and misdirection but they covered all of that against the Ravens.

If Trestman was using his playbook, I'm sure there would have been a handful of things he would have done differently because of the comfort level. But how do you get using a playbook that the guy you are coaching against developed and it's your first game? That had to be frustrating for Marc. I expect to see a much more aggressive offense this week. More play action, more misdirection, more shots down field and more tempo. Much like Kyle Shanahan, Trestman has the ability to take this offense to the next level but it's gonna take a few games to get comfortable imo.

[Purple_City39]

I think people should go watch Emmanuel Sanders post game show last night. They asked him about the offense starting slow the first two games. Hus response was that Kubiak is still learning his players and how they could fit the offense. He mention how he and DT missed a ton of practice and right now they're more comfortable with the few things that remain in the offense from last year more then what Kubes wants to do.

Now apply that to what Trestman is dealing with. 3/5 of the oline either missed a ton of pratice with injury or was slowed by injury. The oline never played in one preseason game together, Marlon Brown and Camp missed a ton of time, you have 3 really young and inexperienced TEs in many ways and not only does the players have to learn the offense, Trestman himself had to learn the offense.

I don't think people are putting enough attention into the fact that Trestman has to learn not only his player but the actual offense and the first time he's asked to call that offense in a real game it's against a group of coaches who know that offense in and out because IT WAS THERE OFFENSE!!!! I'm not saying Trestman couldn't have called a better game and did some things differently, but watching the Broncos defense for 2 games now you could clearly see they were 2 steps ahead of the Ravens because the coaches knew exactly what to look for in most cases. Against KC they were susceptible to the run and misdirection but they covered all of that against the Ravens.

If Trestman was using his playbook, I'm sure there would have been a handful of things he would have done differently because of the comfort level. But how do you get using a playbook that the guy you are coaching against developed and it's your first game? That had to be frustrating for Marc. I expect to see a much more aggressive offense this week. More play action, more misdirection, more shots down field and more tempo. Much like Kyle Shanahan, Trestman has the ability to take this offense to the next level but it's gonna take a few games to get comfortable imo.

Thank you.  People really aren't seeing the big picture here.  Trestman and the offense were at a huge disadvantage regardless of what players we had.  If they play like that against Oakland then I'll be worried.  As of now, not at all

[Moderator 3]

Can't expect trestman to come in and in our first game against a top defense without one of his main weapons to light the world on fire... Takes time

NTM having no real game film on that defense. First game of the year is very difficult for many teams. After that, everybody has some film to study.

[Ravensfan23]

Thank you.  People really aren't seeing the big picture here.  Trestman and the offense were at a huge disadvantage regardless of what players we had.  If they play like that against Oakland then I'll be worried.  As of now, not at all

Agreed. If we see the same thing in Oakland there is a problem. However i don't think we will. Even if the Raiders study the Broncos tape and run the same style defense, they have to have the overall talent and discipline that Denver had and i don't think they do. Imo the biggest thing that saved Denver's D was they only had to watch preseason tape to see certain changes to the offense because they had the architect of the offense on their sideline. Hard to out coach a man who build the offense you have to use.

However in the Oak game, the basics of the offense should work well which should allow Marc to open things up more. When he runs that misdirection run action, he'll be able to call the play action in this game because the back side LBs and Safeties shouldn't be as discipline in this game and if they are, Marc should be able to game plan around it because he's now seen it. I think if people could go back and watch the Broncos game without emotion and focus on the design, matchups, movement and space created by the offense instead of the results, a lot more people would be excites about the possibilities. There were so many times in that game where one missed block stopped a 20+ yard gain, or quick pressure prevented Flacco from going through his reads where a guy was wide open over the middle.

Despite Denver basically having the Ravens playbook, they still were able to scheme some things up that should have worked. But the Oline wasn't really able to handle the run blitz or quick pressure. If they play better the offense explodes in Oakland imo.