Wallers potential could mean a bright future in Baltimore.

[Ravensfan23]

Some of what you said made sense but I'll focus upon this part first.  Waller did not get the 1st team reps Aiken and Brown got.

 

Secondly, isn't  the performance of Aiken and Brown proof in and of itself that the coaches have erred?  When you compare coaches and fans, weigh also coaches opinions of Matt Elam, who we drafted number 1.

 

Unless Brown and Aiken suddenly bring it. We will be 0-4.

 

In regard to the "Risk vs Reward" analysis.........let us ask you this. ....At what point do we bring in the untried guys? At 0-4? At 0-5?...at 0-6? ....when do we do the unconventional out of recognition that our coaches erred in their initial assessments?

 

I think Waller and Camp need 25 snaps a game and not just in alley oop and quick slant situations. Lastly, part of the reason I believed Waller would rise by week 8 was in regard to low opinion of Brown and Aiken. If we give Brown and Aiken the Pittsburgh game, I'm afraid of where that may leave us.

The WRs and offense has next to nothing to do with this team being 0-3. Those guys aren't being given many favorable opportunities to make plays.

All Aiken and Brown bringing it would do is lessen Smith's load and give Flacco more trust in them which needs to happen. If Flacco was holding the ball and waiting for guys to get open then I'd worry about the other WRs getting open bit he's not. Those guys are getting open they just haven't been targeted much.

I get the notion that Waller could possibly stretch the field but obviously that not a huge deal for Trestman and the offense. Everyone from fans to media automatically assume that because the deep ball was a huge part of the offensive success leading to the Super bowl that it has to be apart of the offense always. It doesn't. Would it help? Yes but Trestman is doing a great job of scheming this offense up, much the same way he did for Chi in 2013 when they were one of the most explosive offenses with no speed in the offense.

No doubt the WR numbers look bad, but it's not a concern to the coaches because when they are watching flim they see these guys open but the ball not going to them. If the WR corp was such an issue Ozzie would have made a move like he's done with the CBs IMO.

[rmcjacket23]

I'll make it even more simple.  Newsome was shopping for a Very Expensive WR a couple days ago.  I doubt he pulls the trigger, but he was on the horn.

 

I think they know they don't have the WR horses.  The #2 and #3 obviously have them concerned. They goofed.

Maybe they were, something we will probably never know.

 

But there's only one way to find out if you goofed or not, and we both know what that is...which is why were are in this position right now.

[Ravensfan23]

I went through the agony of watching the Bengals game again and didn't see M. Brown open on S.Smith back shoulder T.D.  I'll watch it again.

 

There was some criticism of Flacco trying for Maxx Williams late when M. Brown was open on a left sideline fly.  Flacco was rolling right and the Safety was definitely in the "jump zone". On that play Flacco was wise not to put it up. 

 

I'm off to see if M. Brown really did clear on Smittys T.D.  Moot in this instance but let me see if he truly got open.

Watch Brown in the slot. He gets the DB to open his hips and gets inside position on his defender. It would have been a tight throw but one Flacco has made many times before. If fact, watching Wired it looks like Trestman even acknowledges to Marlon that he did a good job on the play as well.

Flacco clearly made the correct throw but it doesn't take away from Brown doing his job just because the ball didn't go his way.

[Purple_City39]

Well, there are a few things we know for sure...

1. Kamar Aiken won #2 WR job. He was in about as open a competition as you can possibly get with everybody not named Steve Smith, and he outplayed Waller, Brown, Campanaro, Butler, and any other fan favorite this board has. So that's why, at least at the beginning, Waller isn't playing.

2. Aiken falls into the category of a raw player who is being given meaningful snaps to prove himself. So far, that hasn't happened.

3. While I completely disagree with the notion that the only way coaches can evaluate players is to put them in regular season games for long periods of time and see what they can do, I at least understand why some think this.

The only serious question I have is... do we understand the risk of doing this? I know we understand the reward.

But what if we just throw Waller out there, he struggles (which just about everybody should expect him to), he drops passes, he runs lazy routes (which I've seen him do multiple times), and turnovers occur? When turnovers occur frequently, losses start to occur frequently. Are you willing to risk losing games (and possibly losing a season) to find out if a raw player can play?

I'm not, and that's why I never think its a good idea. We go 0-6, and I'll be the first supporter of benching every veteran and throwing every rookie, PS player, etc. out there to see if any of them can play a lick. But if there's still hope for a recovery (and at least until midnight tomorrow there is), I'm not willing to risk the downside to find out if a 6th round pick can play or not. To me, the risk greatly exceeds the reward at this point. There's plenty of other opportunities and times where coaches who are paid millions and are exponentially better at evaluating talent than anybody on these boards ever will be can evaluate them and determine if they are worthy of playing time.

Or, quite simply, Waller could have just beat his competition for the job, as he was surely given every possible opportunity to do so.

1. He won it by default.  Brown and Campanaro both got hurt.  He essential only beat out players that never played a down for the team, all but one of whom are on any NFL team's active rosters currently to my knowledge.  Wow.

 

2. He received meaningful snaps last year.  A 4th year player still being raw simply shouldn't be played over a rookie or 2nd year player who are equally as raw but have more potential.

 

3.  I'm sure coaches can evaluate players in practice, but once they hit the field and do nothing, effectively being a reason you lose games due to invisibility on the field, they should find other options

 

Waller could be just as bad as Aiken, but we don't know that.  We know how bad Aiken is.  We've only seen Waller for 2 plays and he had his man beat on both.  Aiken just saw 63 players and might have also beat his man on a total of 2.

[Purple_City39]

I guess my main question for those against Waller (or Camp) getting more snaps is this.  If what we're doing now on offense simply isn't working, why not make a change?  Why would you rather continue on the path that only gives us 1 WR worth mentioning vs actually seeing if we could possibly have 2 or 3?  It's not like we're just getting by with Aiken and even Brown.  We're simply not winning

[rmcjacket23]

I guess my main question for those against Waller (or Camp) getting more snaps is this.  If what we're doing now on offense simply isn't working, why not make a change?  Why would you rather continue on the path that only gives us 1 WR worth mentioning vs actually seeing if we could possibly have 2 or 3?  It's not like we're just getting by with Aiken and even Brown.  We're simply not winning

Sure, but that implies that the lack of winning is largely contributed to the fact that we don't have a valid 2nd receiver on the roster, which I don't think anybody is willing to go to that level at this point.

 

There are a gigantic number of reasons why we are not winning, and I don't see how giving Waller more snaps is all of the sudden going to launch us into like a 6 game winning streak. He could play better than Aiken, Brown, etc. and we could lose the next three games very easily.

 

Or, put another way, if we're going to just start benching guys who we feel aren't playing well or aren't contributing to the level we like, Kamar Aiken would probably be about 4th or 5th on my list. Not saying we shouldn't do that, but needless to say there's a few other areas I'd hit first.

[Purple_City39]

Sure, but that implies that the lack of winning is largely contributed to the fact that we don't have a valid 2nd receiver on the roster, which I don't think anybody is willing to go to that level at this point.

 

There are a gigantic number of reasons why we are not winning, and I don't see how giving Waller more snaps is all of the sudden going to launch us into like a 6 game winning streak. He could play better than Aiken, Brown, etc. and we could lose the next three games very easily.

 

Or, put another way, if we're going to just start benching guys who we feel aren't playing well or aren't contributing to the level we like, Kamar Aiken would probably be about 4th or 5th on my list. Not saying we shouldn't do that, but needless to say there's a few other areas I'd hit first.

Nobody said making that change gives us a 6 game winning streak.  In fact, nobody suggested that.  But an 0-3 team should do anything to get better.  Just because defense is the biggest issue doesn't mean you ignore another obvious weakness

[rmcjacket23]

Nobody said making that change gives us a 6 game winning streak.  In fact, nobody suggested that.  But an 0-3 team should do anything to get better.  Just because defense is the biggest issue doesn't mean you ignore another obvious weakness

And I'm fine with that.

 

But then again, it sort of seems like fans consistently think the coaching staff has some sort of agenda for or against other players. Feel pretty confident that the coaching staff knows that Kamar Aiken isn't producing, and feel pretty confident they know that Darren Waller is on the team.

 

So is it a case where the fanbase thinks that the coaches are willing to risk losing their jobs just to see Aiken succeed and hold Waller back, or is it entirely possible (of course this is the only realistic option) that the coaching staff knows more about these players than the combined knowledge of all fans on these boards, and they actually don't think Waller would do better than Aiken? I mean you gotta realize I'm not hearing a single thing different about Waller that we didn't hear about Tommy Streeter, Aaron Mellette, or even Marlon Brown for that matter (who actually briefly did produce).

 

Make no mistake... I have complete confidence that there are literally people here who think coaching staffs play favoritism and have agendas against better player (however ludicrous that might be). But yet, no person has ever been able to explain why a coaching staff would go out of its way to not play a player they thought was better. 

 

And that's ultimately what this is about... its not about whether the fans want to see young guys play or whether or not they can't understand the personnel decisions, because that's never once mattered. Its about what the coaches want, and its 100% in their best interest to play the best players at all times. Who determines who those best players are? They do, because they're exponentially more qualified to do it than they are. Could they be wrong? Sure, but then again, none of us are actually qualified to determine if they are wrong either, because we lack the information they have.

Edited October 1, 2015 by rmcjacket23

[PurpleCity5]

Nobody said making that change gives us a 6 game winning streak.  In fact, nobody suggested that.  But an 0-3 team should do anything to get better.  Just because defense is the biggest issue doesn't mean you ignore another obvious weakness

That's why you have training camp and preseason to determine who starts and who doesn't. If Waller was better than Aiken then he would not only get more reps but he'd be way higher on the depth chart. Thing is Aiken outplayed everyone in Camp except for Steve Smith Sr. I honestly believe Aiken wouldn't be starting if it wasn't for Perriman's injury. The truth is that we don't have any play-makers outside of Smith Sr. 

 

I'd really like to see us play more 2 TE sets once Gilmore returns to ease the pressure off of Steve Smith Sr. until Perriman returns. 

[Purple_City39]

And I'm fine with that.

 

But then again, it sort of seems like fans consistently think the coaching staff has some sort of agenda for or against other players. Feel pretty confident that the coaching staff knows that Kamar Aiken isn't producing, and feel pretty confident they know that Darren Waller is on the team.

 

So is it a case where the fanbase thinks that the coaches are willing to risk losing their jobs just to see Aiken succeed and hold Waller back, or is it entirely possible (of course this is the only realistic option) that the coaching staff knows more about these players than the combined knowledge of all fans on these boards, and they actually don't think Waller would do better than Aiken? I mean you gotta realize I'm not hearing a single thing different about Waller that we didn't hear about Tommy Streeter, Aaron Mellette, or even Marlon Brown for that matter (who actually briefly did produce).

 

Make no mistake... I have complete confidence that there are literally people here who think coaching staffs play favoritism and have agendas against better player (however ludicrous that might be). But yet, no person has ever been able to explain why a coaching staff would go out of its way to not play a player they thought was better. 

 

And that's ultimately what this is about... its not about whether the fans want to see young guys play or whether or not they can't understand the personnel decisions, because that's never once mattered. Its about what the coaches want, and its 100% in their best interest to play the best players at all times. Who determines who those best players are? They do, because they're exponentially more qualified to do it than they are. Could they be wrong? Sure, but then again, none of us are actually qualified to determine if they are wrong either, because we lack the information they have.

Yeah, some people here do act like the coaches play favoritism or have agendas.......and I'm one of them simply because of 2011 and 2012.  When McKinnie was clearly the best LT on the team and was benched going into 2012 because he didn't adhere to John's weight requirement.  That is known.  I'm a huge Harbaugh fan but let's remember this actually did happen and the o-line struggled playing Harewood and Reid at LG, Osemele at RT and Oher at LT when a better lineup was obvious to many.

 

Let's also remember that Ellerbe was benched going into a season, I forget which, simply because he taunted on a fumble return in the preseason and didn't play again until he backup(s) just sucked outright.  Let's remember that Brown and Mellette on really received a chance because the WRs ahead of them, sans Torrey, in 2013 all played poorly in just preseason.  Here we have Aiken playing poorly in preseason, that was excused by many as just preseason, and now 3 games into the regular season.

 

I don't think any coaches are "risking their jobs" to not play guys.  But we clearly see what's not working and I'm sure many of us would like to see something done to represent a change (like playing Babin or benching Aiken).

[Purple_City39]

That's why you have training camp and preseason to determine who starts and who doesn't. If Waller was better than Aiken then he would not only get more reps but he'd be way higher on the depth chart. Thing is Aiken outplayed everyone in Camp except for Steve Smith Sr. I honestly believe Aiken wouldn't be starting if it wasn't for Perriman's injury. The truth is that we don't have any play-makers outside of Smith Sr. 

 

I'd really like to see us play more 2 TE sets once Gilmore returns to ease the pressure off of Steve Smith Sr. until Perriman returns. 

Aiken did NOT outplay everyone.  He was healthier as Brown and Camp missed half of preseason and Brown missed a lot of training camp also.  In addition, fans have the same coverage to preseason as every one else and Camp and Waller received FAR MORE praises across the board than Aiken, as did Butler who, like Aiken, flopped in preseason.

 

Y'all reaching for excuses.  There is nothing you saw to say Aiken outplayed anyone.  You are simply going off the fact the coaches gave him the #2 and Steve Smith defended him in a presser.

 

Random question, when was the last time the Ravens actually gave a WR drafted in the 5th or later a chance outside of Brown due to injury?  I recall LaQuan coming up big in that 92 yard drive against Pittsburgh for a play or two but he never got snaps either.  For all the WRs we've drafted late, none seem to even get snaps.  Even Campanaro isn't getting much and almost all fans are big on him (maybe we're all wrong there). 

[PurpleCity5]

Aiken did NOT outplay everyone.  He was healthier as Brown and Camp missed half of preseason and Brown missed a lot of training camp also.  In addition, fans have the same coverage to preseason as every one else and Camp and Waller received FAR MORE praises across the board than Aiken, as did Butler who, like Aiken, flopped in preseason.

 

Y'all reaching for excuses.  There is nothing you saw to say Aiken outplayed anyone.  You are simply going off the fact the coaches gave him the #2 and Steve Smith defended him in a presser.

 

Random question, when was the last time the Ravens actually gave a WR drafted in the 5th or later a chance outside of Brown due to injury?  I recall LaQuan coming up big in that 92 yard drive against Pittsburgh for a play or two but he never got snaps either.  For all the WRs we've drafted late, none seem to even get snaps.  Even Campanaro isn't getting much and almost all fans are big on him (maybe we're all wrong there). 

Aiken is going up against Starters, Camp and Brown were not during the preseason. Not only that but Marlon Brown has played significant snaps. Against Oakland he played the most downs of all WR and yet didn't do much to show for it. Camp does deserve more targets, I agree with that but putting Waller over Aiken won't help at all, I don't think Waller is even fit as a starter. Should he get more reps? Sure. I honestly believe that the #2 WR spot should be distributed much more between Aiken, Brown and Camp but Aiken should still be the starter. 

[rmcjacket23]

Yeah, some people here do act like the coaches play favoritism or have agendas.......and I'm one of them simply because of 2011 and 2012.  When McKinnie was clearly the best LT on the team and was benched going into 2012 because he didn't adhere to John's weight requirement.  That is known.  I'm a huge Harbaugh fan but let's remember this actually did happen and the o-line struggled playing Harewood and Reid at LG, Osemele at RT and Oher at LT when a better lineup was obvious to many.

 

Let's also remember that Ellerbe was benched going into a season, I forget which, simply because he taunted on a fumble return in the preseason and didn't play again until he backup(s) just sucked outright.  Let's remember that Brown and Mellette on really received a chance because the WRs ahead of them, sans Torrey, in 2013 all played poorly in just preseason.  Here we have Aiken playing poorly in preseason, that was excused by many as just preseason, and now 3 games into the regular season.

 

I don't think any coaches are "risking their jobs" to not play guys.  But we clearly see what's not working and I'm sure many of us would like to see something done to represent a change (like playing Babin or benching Aiken).

1. Had less to do with some stringent weight requirement and more to do with the fact that McKinnie wasn't actually in football condition, meaning late in games he would probably have to come out or would be terrible because he wasn't conditioned to play football. So we can only really say he was the better LT when he could actually play LT, which for much of that season he actually couldn't. This is also well known. If McKinnie was that interested in playing, all he had to do was get in shape. Not an overly difficult request. 

 

2. Ellerbe get benched numerous times (while not even a starter) for being late to meetings, practices, and even a game one time according to reports. There was only one season where he was a realistic option as a starter anyway, and that was in 2012, and he got the job mostly due to injuries to players that were better than him. Looking back on this now, its kind of silly we even discuss him, because he's simply not very good. He is basically just linebacker depth in this league at this point. To me, there isn't a lot separating Ellerbe from a Jameel McClain type player.

 

3. Correct, Brown and Mellette only got a shot because the person ahead of them got hurt or wasn't play well... isn't that precisely how it should be? Do you honestly think Waller should be completing with a proven veteran for snaps on the roster, because I don't and I don't think any reasonable person does. You don't just give people playing time because they are on the roster... this isn't Little League. If they were better than the guys ahead of them, then they would have earned playing time by playing better than them. They didn't, which is why they are where they are right now.

 

As for Aiken, by all accounts, he had a great offseason, or at least as good as the guys he was competing with. Given that the guys he was competing worth are largely young guys who haven't played the snaps that he has, and none of them separated themselves from him, logically, he wins the job.

 

4. Coaches are surely risking their jobs... the difference is we can't see that because we've been consistently winning, so thinks are always less risky when you're winning. When you're losing, and you start playing favorites and have better players on the bench, you're under the spotlight. Do that long enough, and you get fired, as just about every coach eventually gets fired.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some changes also. I'm not sure I get all the "why isn't Babin playing" talk, because all we're really saying is that we should throw in the towel on ZaDarius Smith and Upshaw as pass rushers, which I'm not necessarily opposed to, but just seems a bit premature to me.

 

The good news/bad news is if we lose tonight, all of this "lets play Babin" talk will end, because there will literally be no reason for him to ever play a snap.

[Purple_City39]

Aiken is going up against Starters, Camp and Brown were not during the preseason. Not only that but Marlon Brown has played significant snaps. Against Oakland he played the most downs of all WR and yet didn't do much to show for it. Camp does deserve more targets, I agree with that but putting Waller over Aiken won't help at all, I don't think Waller is even fit as a starter. Should he get more reps? Sure. I honestly believe that the #2 WR spot should be distributed much more between Aiken, Brown and Camp but Aiken should still be the starter. 

Aiken flopped against starters when games didn't matter and it translated to when they did.  If Camp and Brown only played well against second string, why not find out what they can do against starters as opposed to continuously smashing our heads into the wall with the Aiken experiment?  I can't even say who should be the #2 but I can say who should not the full time guy

[rmcjacket23]

Aiken flopped against starters when games didn't matter and it translated to when they did.  If Camp and Brown only played well against second string, why not find out what they can do against starters as opposed to continuously smashing our heads into the wall with the Aiken experiment?  I can't even say who should be the #2 but I can say who should not the full time guy

So the guys that didn't impress against backups should now be allowed to play against starters?

[PurpleCity5]

Aiken flopped against starters when games didn't matter and it translated to when they did.  If Camp and Brown only played well against second string, why not find out what they can do against starters as opposed to continuously smashing our heads into the wall with the Aiken experiment?  I can't even say who should be the #2 but I can say who should not the full time guy

I don't think Camp should even play on the outside Tbh, he's utilized in the slot. As for Brown he hasn't lit it up either and he's gotten significant reps. I agree the #2 job should be split but starting Camp or Brown won't change anything honestly. 

[Purple_City39]

1. Had less to do with some stringent weight requirement and more to do with the fact that McKinnie wasn't actually in football condition, meaning late in games he would probably have to come out or would be terrible because he wasn't conditioned to play football. So we can only really say he was the better LT when he could actually play LT, which for much of that season he actually couldn't. This is also well known. If McKinnie was that interested in playing, all he had to do was get in shape. Not an overly difficult request. 

 

2. Ellerbe get benched numerous times (while not even a starter) for being late to meetings, practices, and even a game one time according to reports. There was only one season where he was a realistic option as a starter anyway, and that was in 2012, and he got the job mostly due to injuries to players that were better than him. Looking back on this now, its kind of silly we even discuss him, because he's simply not very good. He is basically just linebacker depth in this league at this point. To me, there isn't a lot separating Ellerbe from a Jameel McClain type player.

 

3. Correct, Brown and Mellette only got a shot because the person ahead of them got hurt or wasn't play well... isn't that precisely how it should be? Do you honestly think Waller should be completing with a proven veteran for snaps on the roster, because I don't and I don't think any reasonable person does. You don't just give people playing time because they are on the roster... this isn't Little League. If they were better than the guys ahead of them, then they would have earned playing time by playing better than them. They didn't, which is why they are where they are right now.

 

As for Aiken, by all accounts, he had a great offseason, or at least as good as the guys he was competing with. Given that the guys he was competing worth are largely young guys who haven't played the snaps that he has, and none of them separated themselves from him, logically, he wins the job.

 

4. Coaches are surely risking their jobs... the difference is we can't see that because we've been consistently winning, so thinks are always less risky when you're winning. When you're losing, and you start playing favorites and have better players on the bench, you're under the spotlight. Do that long enough, and you get fired, as just about every coach eventually gets fired.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some changes also. I'm not sure I get all the "why isn't Babin playing" talk, because all we're really saying is that we should throw in the towel on ZaDarius Smith and Upshaw as pass rushers, which I'm not necessarily opposed to, but just seems a bit premature to me.

 

The good news/bad news is if we lose tonight, all of this "lets play Babin" talk will end, because there will literally be no reason for him to ever play a snap.

1. McKinnie played fat and out of shape in 2011 and they started him the whole way anyway so I don't buy that excuse.  As a fat and out of shape LT in 2011, he played LT much better than Oher did in 2010, 2012, and even spot duty (4 games I think) in 2009.  

 

2. Ehh.  Ellerbe is what he is but he was better with us than others, just like 90% of the defensive players we've had.  It's not like many have left and lit up the league after so disregarding him due to what he did after Baltimore is illogical to me since we're discussing players in Baltimore and how the coaches handle them

 

3. In this same point, you acknowledge that Brown and Mellete, unknown guys, received playing time because those ahead of them were injured "wasn't playing well" and in the same point say Waller shouldn't be given the opportunity just because the he's on the roster.  Which is exactly what happened to Brown and Mellete.  It seems you're just arguing against Waller for the sake of it.  I'm saying he should get more playing time, along with Camp, and Aiken should be benched.

 

4. Making no changes when the franchise has gone 0-3 for the first time ever is riskier than a proven coach actually making an attempt to change things and get better.  But that's just my opinion.

 

Babin was mentioned as an example, not sure why it's getting that much attention in response but playing Babin doesn't mean you give up on anybody.  I'm pretty sure they were going to play Upshaw and Smith if Suggs stayed healthy so I'm not sure how adding someone else to also split time means we're giving up on anyone.  2014 OLBs that saw significant snaps were Suggs, Doom, Upshaw, and McPhee.  4 players.  2015 OLBs are currently Doom, Upshaw, and Smith.  How is having the same amount of OLBs playing akin to giving up on anyone?

[Purple_City39]

So the guys that didn't impress against backups should now be allowed to play against starters?

1. That's your opinion as many don't share it.

2. Why is your solution to improving the team to stick with the same garbage receiver?  You should look up the definition of "insanity".  Doing nothing different is throwing in the towel far more than taking a chance on another guy

[Purple_City39]

I don't think Camp should even play on the outside Tbh, he's utilized in the slot. As for Brown he hasn't lit it up either and he's gotten significant reps. I agree the #2 job should be split but starting Camp or Brown won't change anything honestly. 

I don't disagree with anything you've said.  I think Camp should stay inside and Smitty should just keep playing outside.  At least then we'll have a threat both in and out as opposed to just wherever SSS is.  But I just don't feel Aiken has proven anything and would rather see what else we have on the team as opposed to continuously running into the wall head first with Kamar as the defacto #2

[PurpleCity5]

I don't disagree with anything you've said.  I think Camp should stay inside and Smitty should just keep playing outside.  At least then we'll have a threat both in and out as opposed to just wherever SSS is.  But I just don't feel Aiken has proven anything and would rather see what else we have on the team as opposed to continuously running into the wall head first with Kamar as the defacto #2

I don't think Aiken should start either but what can you do honestly. He wouldn't be the starter if Perriman was healthy, Aiken is just average. He's not good or bad, he's neither and that's not a starting caliber WR. I honestly feel he could be a good #3, but thats it really. Camp and Brown are good players but neither are starters but I can say Camp should get more targets, I honestly feel Gilmore is our true #2. 

[rmcjacket23]

1. McKinnie played fat and out of shape in 2011 and they started him the whole way anyway so I don't buy that excuse.  As a fat and out of shape LT in 2011, he played LT much better than Oher did in 2010, 2012, and even spot duty (4 games I think) in 2009.  

 

2. Ehh.  Ellerbe is what he is but he was better with us than others, just like 90% of the defensive players we've had.  It's not like many have left and lit up the league after so disregarding him due to what he did after Baltimore is illogical to me since we're discussing players in Baltimore and how the coaches handle them

 

3. In this same point, you acknowledge that Brown and Mellete, unknown guys, received playing time because those ahead of them were injured "wasn't playing well" and in the same point say Waller shouldn't be given the opportunity just because the he's on the roster.  Which is exactly what happened to Brown and Mellete.  It seems you're just arguing against Waller for the sake of it.  I'm saying he should get more playing time, along with Camp, and Aiken should be benched.

 

4. Making no changes when the franchise has gone 0-3 for the first time ever is riskier than a proven coach actually making an attempt to change things and get better.  But that's just my opinion.

 

Babin was mentioned as an example, not sure why it's getting that much attention in response but playing Babin doesn't mean you give up on anybody.  I'm pretty sure they were going to play Upshaw and Smith if Suggs stayed healthy so I'm not sure how adding someone else to also split time means we're giving up on anyone.  2014 OLBs that saw significant snaps were Suggs, Doom, Upshaw, and McPhee.  4 players.  2015 OLBs are currently Doom, Upshaw, and Smith.  How is having the same amount of OLBs playing akin to giving up on anyone?

1. No, he played fat in 2011, just like he played fat most of his career. Playing fat and playing unconditioned are two completely different things. Matt Birk played "fat" for most of his career too, as referenced by the fact that he lost hundreds of pounds after he left. That doesn't mean he played unconditioned. The two are not dependent on each other.

 

Regardless, it still doesn't show how it was in Harbaugh's best interest to purposely bench him because he has some personal vendetta against him. He would have everything to risk and literally nothing to gain by doing that. This isn't a case of him benching him for a game because he missed a practice or something. 

 

2. No, I'm disregarding him because he played less than a full season of quality football for the Ravens TOTAL. He went elsewhere and did less than that. That's why I'm disregarding him.

 

3. The fourth OLB is Albert McClellan. He played 11 snaps on Sunday (15% of defensive snaps), and he wasn't playing ILB, because neither Smith nor Mosley ever came off the field. Same thing in Week 2... McClellan played 13 snaps (18%) at OLB. He also plays ST, which appears to be something Babin isn't going to play or at least currently isn't playing.

 

So you're right, he's playing the same amount of OLBs as he was before. Babin would be the 5th, not the 4th.

 

4. In a way, I am arguing against Waller, because I haven't yet seen a reason for him to be out there. He runs lazy routes, with half of them him seemingly not exactly knowing where he's supposed to be going, and he has bad hands from what I've seen. I'm not interested in putting a guy out there who I don't feel confident can catch the ball AND I don't feel confident will go where he's supposed to go. I don't get enamored with the physical size and those attributes, because they don't matter to me if you can't do the fundamental requirements of the position correctly.

 

You want to lobby for Campanaro to get more snaps? 100% agree. I'd even rather see Marlon Brown out there over Aiken at this point, though I don't think there's much difference. Just don't see what all the fascination with Waller is other than the fact that he's tall, which doesn't really matter much if you don't know how to use your height.

[rmcjacket23]

I don't think Aiken should start either but what can you do honestly. He wouldn't be the starter if Perriman was healthy, Aiken is just average. He's not good or bad, he's neither and that's not a starting caliber WR. I honestly feel he could be a good #3, but thats it really. Camp and Brown are good players but neither are starters but I can say Camp should get more targets, I honestly feel Gilmore is our true #2. 

If Perriman was healthy, there would be zero discussion whatsoever about Waller. Third WRs, regardless of who it is, have never and probably will never have much offensive impact on a weekly basis on this team. Two WRs and one or two TEs have been and likely will continue to be the main offensive producers from a pass catching standpoint.

[Ravensfan23]

Honestly i think everyone is missing the boat here. Everyone sees issue with the WRs except for Trestman and the Ravens. They aren't concerned about the WRs and when questions about getting Camp or Waller more snaps they are shot down for the most part. That article about Camp getting more snaps is a joke. Trestman said the same thing about him that is true for both Marlon and Kamar. There's really no priority to get those guys invloved in the offense, so as it's played out right now they have to just get in where they fit in. However because the #2 WR spot is being split between Brown and Aiken so are the targets. As Trestman said SSR is the only premier guy at WR for this team and as big as their fan clubs are, Waller nor Camp fit into that category. So Smitty is the only WR being schemed open constantly and basically forced the ball. It's not a matter of Aiken and Brown not getting open, btw I've seen Brown open far more then Aiken for what its worth, but the issue is the offense just not running through those guys.

Admittedly i didn't and still don't know much about Trestman's offensive history. However i did go back and look at the offense in Chicago during 13-14' seasons and it's the same exact offense. It's not Kubiak's offense it's Trestman's. In 2013 Trestman focused on getting his premier WR(Marshall) the ball every game(10 targets per game), created space and favorable matchups for the TE(Bennett 5-6 Tpg), got the RB(Forte 5-6 Tpg) involved in the game as well and your #3(Bennett 2-3 Tpg) got in where he fit in. That's exactly what he's doing now. The difference is that the talent at WR isn't set for the Ravens. Even though he was only a 2nd year player, being a high draft pick basically demanded that Jeffrey( 9 Tpg) be invloved in the offense along with BMarsh.

This is exactly what's happening with the Ravens but the Targets are off a bit because the Ravens are still try to find out what they have at #2 and neither guy is a premier talent so running the offense through them isn't a priority when developing game plans. The #2WR battle is still playing out because nobody stepped up and took it in camp, whether it was injury or play. However if Perriman was healthy i'm almost positive he'd be seeing a ton of targets just because you have a reason to scheme his premier talents into the offense. The Ravens have so many more parts and toys for Trestman to play with then the Bears and right now he's still figuring out who should be where. SSR is the only premier guy right now, but you have 3TEs who could be used, 3RBs, HB and you're rotating your WRs. The offense is developing it's identity outside of SSR right now and Waller nor Camp would be a guy to demand you scheme them into the offense right now imo. They'd just be 2 more guys getting open but the ball not coming their way because of Flacco's trust and the offensive design.

SSR is being targeted about 13 times per game, the combination of Brown/Aiken 7 times. The TEs 5 times, the RB/HB 5 times and the others WRs pick up the rest. Once the WRs outside of Smith start getting more opportunities and that guy or 2 steps out we'll see the #2 WR targeted more imo

[Purple_City39]

1. No, he played fat in 2011, just like he played fat most of his career. Playing fat and playing unconditioned are two completely different things. Matt Birk played "fat" for most of his career too, as referenced by the fact that he lost hundreds of pounds after he left. That doesn't mean he played unconditioned. The two are not dependent on each other.

 

Regardless, it still doesn't show how it was in Harbaugh's best interest to purposely bench him because he has some personal vendetta against him. He would have everything to risk and literally nothing to gain by doing that. This isn't a case of him benching him for a game because he missed a practice or something. 

 

2. No, I'm disregarding him because he played less than a full season of quality football for the Ravens TOTAL. He went elsewhere and did less than that. That's why I'm disregarding him.

 

3. The fourth OLB is Albert McClellan. He played 11 snaps on Sunday (15% of defensive snaps), and he wasn't playing ILB, because neither Smith nor Mosley ever came off the field. Same thing in Week 2... McClellan played 13 snaps (18%) at OLB. He also plays ST, which appears to be something Babin isn't going to play or at least currently isn't playing.

 

So you're right, he's playing the same amount of OLBs as he was before. Babin would be the 5th, not the 4th.

 

4. In a way, I am arguing against Waller, because I haven't yet seen a reason for him to be out there. He runs lazy routes, with half of them him seemingly not exactly knowing where he's supposed to be going, and he has bad hands from what I've seen. I'm not interested in putting a guy out there who I don't feel confident can catch the ball AND I don't feel confident will go where he's supposed to go. I don't get enamored with the physical size and those attributes, because they don't matter to me if you can't do the fundamental requirements of the position correctly.

 

You want to lobby for Campanaro to get more snaps? 100% agree. I'd even rather see Marlon Brown out there over Aiken at this point, though I don't think there's much difference. Just don't see what all the fascination with Waller is other than the fact that he's tall, which doesn't really matter much if you don't know how to use your height.

1. McKinnie was out of shape in 2011 after spending the lockout working on his record label.  It was widely noted he was not in football condition and he clearly wore down as the season went on and this isn't even debatable.  Still at better LT option than Oher.

 

2. Ellerbe started 14 games in Baltimore but played in 46.  I'm starting to think you're arguing for the sake of it now.

 

3. The fact that you think 15% of the snaps means that McLellan is being used on the level of 2014 Suggs, Dumervile, Upshaw, or McPhee is confirming that you're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

4. So you just don't like Waller then.  Got it.  We'll agree to disagree as continuing to go back and forth is pointless.  You need a player to be proven to move on from a bum.  I need a player to have potential and would gladly play and unproven guy over a proven bum.

 

If your asking about the fascination for Waller objectively, I'll tell you my interest (won't call it fascination).  Unlike your comment, he's never really had catching issues.  He came into the league with huge questions on his route running outside of deep routes.  Paying attention to preseason, he ran nothing but underneath and short routes and managed to get open.  On plays he wasn't open he still did well to use his size to shield out guys.  As the preseason went on, he improved.  An early mistake on a screen pass was cleared up the next time that occurred.  If you watched more than just where the ball went, you'd see he got open often enough underneath.  In just two plays in the regular season, he did something no other WR has done yet and that's beat his man deep but was underthrown on both.  Considering the team needs a deep threat, it'd be nice to see the fastest healthy WR actually used as one.  The usual rebuttal here is that he gets jammed or starts slow when running.  The response there is that Torrey got jammed a lot also AND how slow Waller starts doesn't matter since he ran the 40 yards down field in the same speed as Torrey only he has better hands and a better catch radius.  Maybe he's worse at tracking the deep pass, who knows.  But sitting at 0-3 with your #2 only getting worse as games go on, I'd gladly take a shot at an unproven who at minimum is a better run blocker

[rmcjacket23]

1. McKinnie was out of shape in 2011 after spending the lockout working on his record label.  It was widely noted he was not in football condition and he clearly wore down as the season went on and this isn't even debatable.  Still at better LT option than Oher.

 

2. Ellerbe started 14 games in Baltimore but played in 46.  I'm starting to think you're arguing for the sake of it now.

 

3. The fact that you think 15% of the snaps means that McLellan is being used on the level of 2014 Suggs, Dumervile, Upshaw, or McPhee is confirming that you're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

4. So you just don't like Waller then.  Got it.  We'll agree to disagree as continuing to go back and forth is pointless.  You need a player to be proven to move on from a bum.  I need a player to have potential and would gladly play and unproven guy over a proven bum.

 

If your asking about the fascination for Waller objectively, I'll tell you my interest (won't call it fascination).  Unlike your comment, he's never really had catching issues.  He came into the league with huge questions on his route running outside of deep routes.  Paying attention to preseason, he ran nothing but underneath and short routes and managed to get open.  On plays he wasn't open he still did well to use his size to shield out guys.  As the preseason went on, he improved.  An early mistake on a screen pass was cleared up the next time that occurred.  If you watched more than just where the ball went, you'd see he got open often enough underneath.  In just two plays in the regular season, he did something no other WR has done yet and that's beat his man deep but was underthrown on both.  Considering the team needs a deep threat, it'd be nice to see the fastest healthy WR actually used as one.  The usual rebuttal here is that he gets jammed or starts slow when running.  The response there is that Torrey got jammed a lot also AND how slow Waller starts doesn't matter since he ran the 40 yards down field in the same speed as Torrey only he has better hands and a better catch radius.  Maybe he's worse at tracking the deep pass, who knows.  But sitting at 0-3 with your #2 only getting worse as games go on, I'd gladly take a shot at an unproven who at minimum is a better run blocker

1. Why do I care how many games Ellerbe played? Do you think he actually played well in all 46 games? How about the games he played five snaps?

 

He was a complete an utter afterthought a depth player until 2012. He annually had a difficult competition to even get a roster spot. Arguing he was a quality player by referencing how many games he played in is like arguing Aiken is a quality player because he's played a lot of games. I very specifically used the phrase "quality football" for that precise reason.

 

2. He's not being used on the level of McPhee in 2014, nor should he. But that's also an irrelevant point, because that's not his job, just like its not Babin's job to be used at the level of McPhee in 2014. You were questioning how adding a 4th OLBer to the group would take snaps away from others. My response, quite simply, is we are already using a 4th OLBer, and adding Babin without taking one of them away would make him a 5th OLBer, which means by definition, somebody loses snaps. Could be McClellan, could be Upshaw, could be Smith. You add a fifth, and one of them plays less.

 

Given that McClellan is only playing a dozen snaps a game, its not reasonable to expect, at least for now, that Babin would play more than that. And for a dozen defensive snaps a game, I'd rather have somebody who can contribute well on ST, which is what McClellan is known for. So you kind of see how Babin doesn't exactly get playing time.

 

3. What is the basis for the "better run blocker argument"? I believe the coaching staff already openly said they think Aiken is their #1 run blocking WR.

[gtalk12]

considering how bad we have looked on Defense, I don't think mixing up the offense too much is a good idea. Aside from game one the offense seems to be doing well, in the 2nd half that is.

 

 

Aiken has looked bad at times. Would it hurt to add Waller in the mix a bit? I don't think so. At this point we need a jolt of SOMETHING on SOME side of the ball because apparently Steve Smith playing like he is 6'6 isn't enough to get these guys to follow his lead.

[GrimCoconut]

This kid is a BEAST ST player. I'm happy he got his first(?) catch tonight. I hope he continues to get some reps. He probably will now with Campanaro's injury (I didn't like seeing him carted off the field). 

[Static]

Give this man some PT!

[Purple_City39]

I'll say this, like in Oakland, again Waller had a (half) step on his man deep and again Joe underthrew it.  A back shoulder throw would have been better than the inside throw.  The defender was close but Waller had to slow down and reach over him for the pass.

 

It was good to see him get his first catch later in the game though.  He's averaging 18 yards per catch.....with one catch 

[GrimCoconut]

I'll say this, like in Oakland, again Waller had a (half) step on his man deep and again Joe underthrew it. A back shoulder throw would have been better than the inside throw. The defender was close but Waller had to slow down and reach over him for the pass.

It was good to see him get his first catch later in the game though. He's averaging 18 yards per catch.....with one catch

Well, it's possible he maybe doesn't know his speed yet and maybe they're still getting on the same page? Flacco was certainly off tonight, though, but let's see what happens.