The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[Winchester]

Taking a lead in the 4th doesn't mean much.  How much time is left in those games and what's the lead?

 

And if the defense is expected to always stop, why isn't the offense expected to score?  The Bengals, Browns and Jags game, had the the offense executed, like most expect the defense to, we could and should've won those games.

I could not agree more!! If the offense scored an extra 7-10 points more and a 2 score lead or better with a couple minutes left then the opposing team could not mount a comeback!! With a franchise QB in place and solid Oline the offense is far closer to being elite than the defense is anyways. Defense would need OLBs, FS cornerbacks and another ilb to be dominant again. The offense needs an elite LT and a couple legit WRs to be top3 in the NFL or better!! My humble opinion the ravens offense could be top2 in the league with the drafting of Tunsil or Stanley, retain Osemele with Urschel at center and A rejuvenated Wagner should be the best in the league. Then sign a WR and draft a WR in round2 while bringing back SS and Givens. Maxx has stated he will be in far better shape and stronger as a sophomore. If he does so then he should be a top5 TE!! Ravens offense could win any shootout and build leads that the other teams will not be able to overcome with late game surges. Jags offense is surging. Everybody talks up their weapons and QB. They have weapons far beyond the ravens. However the ravens Oline is in place and a QB putting up 300 yard games with the worst receivers in the league. Analysts need to talk up what Joe Cool is accomplishing and state their forecast what he and offense will do if the ravens get competent receivers.

[flynismo]

To your first point, THANK YOU.  People pick and choose when stats want to be used.  The game for the most part can't be based on stats.  They can give you an idea, but not the whole picture.  People will come to defend these what if stats for offense, but I remember Pees saying if it wasn't for 6 or 7 plays, the defense would be rated 7th.  People were quick to shoot that down, saying ifs don't cut it.  

 

And it almost ALWAYS seems that way with the bolded.

 

I'm praying SSS comes back, just more time.  He was on pace for a MONSTER season and would just be great to have him tutor Perriman when he's actually on the field.

All I ask for is accountability.  You my friend... You're the real MVP.  I feel like I can rest well tonight.

 

 

 

Regarding what Pees said...that's like saying if Flacco threw 6-7 less picks this season, he'd be putting up MVP stats with a cast of throwaways and rookies. It's a nice thought and all, but it isn't what actually happened. I know that I say 'what if' all the time regarding Flacco..."what if our WR got open consistently like the vast majority of teams", "what if we actually held onto/made a play on that pass", "what if our pass protection played well consistently", etc. But seriously, we really do have it that bad on offense. I honestly cannot name another team who has so much dysfunction and so little talent on the offensive side of the ball. There's Tennessee, there's Minnesota, there's Cleveland. Other than them, every single other team has provided their QB with a much more skilled supporting cast than we have. Maybe I missed a team or even two, but regardless, Flacco has the deck completely stacked against him, and it is tragic. Other than SSS (and now even he has been taken away), absolutely nothing is giving Flacco any support, other than an occasional good play from one of the TE, so I believe the "what-ifs" are warranted in Flacco's case. And then when completely clueless people pile up on Flacco and bash him, or claim absolutely foolish things about him like "he cant carry a team on his own" as if ANY qb can carry a team on their own...well, that hatred/foolishness is what sustains the F.L.F. 

[Winchester]

 

 

Regarding what Pees said...that's like saying if Flacco threw 6-7 less picks this season, he'd be putting up MVP stats with a cast of throwaways and rookies. It's a nice thought and all, but it isn't what actually happened. I know that I say 'what if' all the time regarding Flacco..."what if our WR got open consistently like the vast majority of teams", "what if we actually held onto/made a play on that pass", "what if our pass protection played well consistently", etc. But seriously, we really do have it that bad on offense. I honestly cannot name another team who has so much dysfunction and so little talent on the offensive side of the ball. There's Tennessee, there's Minnesota, there's Cleveland. Other than them, every single other team has provided their QB with a much more skilled supporting cast than we have. Maybe I missed a team or even two, but regardless, Flacco has the deck completely stacked against him, and it is tragic. Other than SSS (and now even he has been taken away), absolutely nothing is giving Flacco any support, other than an occasional good play from one of the TE, so I believe the "what-ifs" are warranted in Flacco's case. And then when completely clueless people pile up on Flacco and bash him, or claim absolutely foolish things about him like "he cant carry a team on his own" as if ANY qb can carry a team on their own...well, that hatred/foolishness is what sustains the F.L.F. 

Totally agree!! There's actually people out there that think it is all Joe Cools fault. And say things like the ravens have good receivers.

[redrum52]

Regarding what Pees said...that's like saying if Flacco threw 6-7 less picks this season, he'd be putting up MVP stats with a cast of throwaways and rookies. It's a nice thought and all, but it isn't what actually happened. I know that I say 'what if' all the time regarding Flacco..."what if our WR got open consistently like the vast majority of teams", "what if we actually held onto/made a play on that pass", "what if our pass protection played well consistently", etc. But seriously, we really do have it that bad on offense. I honestly cannot name another team who has so much dysfunction and so little talent on the offensive side of the ball. There's Tennessee, there's Minnesota, there's Cleveland. Other than them, every single other team has provided their QB with a much more skilled supporting cast than we have. Maybe I missed a team or even two, but regardless, Flacco has the deck completely stacked against him, and it is tragic. Other than SSS (and now even he has been taken away), absolutely nothing is giving Flacco any support, other than an occasional good play from one of the TE, so I believe the "what-ifs" are warranted in Flacco's case. And then when completely clueless people pile up on Flacco and bash him, or claim absolutely foolish things about him like "he cant carry a team on his own" as if ANY qb can carry a team on their own...well, that hatred/foolishness is what sustains the F.L.F.

I'm not a fan of what if statements either. That was my point. When you start playing that game everyone can make a case for anyone.

Yea. Not to knock our guys but we probably have the worst group of "weapons" for our qb. No one will change my mind about that.

[beanfigger]

Taking a lead in the 4th doesn't mean much. How much time is left in those games and what's the lead?

And if the defense is expected to always stop, why isn't the offense expected to score? The Bengals, Browns and Jags game, had the the offense executed, like most expect the defense to, we could and should've won those games.

Yes, but taking the lead in the fourth quarter does mean something if other teams are winning 75% of the games when they do that. That seems like a pretty big deal to me. Of course, the offense has to do its job, and for an entire game, but you can't just brush off something like that when it leads to a win that often for the other teams.

[Willbacker]

To get back to Callahans point on the 4 4th qtr comebacks that we lost the only one I give absolutely no creedence to is the Jags game with 7:36 left. Its a little much to ask the D to hold a 1 pt lead with that amount of time.

 

The rest

Raiders 2:13 left. Raiders drive down and score TD

Bengals 4:03 left. Bengals drive down score TD. Actually the Bengals retook the lead twice after Flacco led td drives.

Browns 6:00 left. Browns get td plus 2 pt conversion. 2 times couldn't be stopped out of the endzone..

 

We can also bring up dropped passes in the endzone and the times Joe had us in the end with a chance to win.

 

What really gets me is these Pees apologists with this crap about the 8th ranked D. So what!! How did we do in the 4th qtr of these games. And then this crap about ohhh its the DBs decision on how far to play back on the receiver but yet last game they decided to play tight. I guess that was on their own accord. lol. Yeah right.

[callahan09]

Anyone can find stats or probabilities to skew the outcome of games. It's a common thing with Flacco apologists. This a game. Every player deals with the same stuff; drops, failing olines, poor run games, changing coordinators etc. They shouldnt be excuses to show what could have happened differently. Or, if they are that's cool, but it goes both ways.

Just as many losses attributed to the defense this year could likely be contributed to Flacco and/or the offense. Every team goes through it, some more than others (yes, some teams and QBs have failing aspects of their team more than ours). I love Callahans stats, but they are almost always show what could have been and to boost Flacco in some way or another.

Almost every stat I've posted this season has been about the defense with no mention of Flacco or the offense, really presenting no context at all, just giving the numbers, so I'm not sure where you get that from.

[52520Andrew]

We have blown every single lead we have held this season. Both wins came on last second kicks. It doesn't matter how little time we leave on the clock, if it's more than zero, than we blow it. That's just a sad fact, not a hyperbole either. However, this past game we did actually make an initial stop after taking the lead, and the offense had a chance to close it out with a few runs for a first down, but couldn't get it done. So, maybe the defense is getting there? Either way, these are startling and outrageous statistics you lay out here.

Yeah the fact that we have always blown a lead is pretty telling

[52520Andrew]

It is a bit of a double standard. We expect the offense to mount a lead whenever they can at some point in the 4th, then we expect the defense to hold it the rest of the way regardless of amount of time left.

But this season at least, his point is valid, quite a few, if not every single one of, our losses came on the very last offensive drive of the game

Yeah the offense has obviously not been perfect, Flacco has ended the game a couple times on an int and the offense had so many chances to win in Pittsburgh(although I don't give credit to the defense more than the Steelers inability to make a field goal). Still, when you blow every single lead you have, the defense has to do better. Oh I miss the days when a lead was all the defense needed.

[callahan09]

Taking a lead in the 4th doesn't mean much.  How much time is left in those games and what's the lead?

 

And if the defense is expected to always stop, why isn't the offense expected to score?  The Bengals, Browns and Jags game, had the the offense executed, like most expect the defense to, we could and should've won those games.

 

We have had 3 games where we took the lead with less than 4 minutes left, that's pretty good.  All of our lead-taking 4th quarter drives were with less than half the quarter remaining (about 7 minutes or less remaining in all of them), so it's not like we took the lead in the opening minute of the quarter and expected the defense to stop them for just about a full quarter.  But those 3 different games with less than 4 minutes left at the end, those should all be won.  We lost 2 of them.   The one we won was the Chargers game where we actually had TWO drives where we left them under 4 minutes, and the defense gave up the lead on one of them and we had to come back and get a second one, so we could just about be 0-3 in those games, and the defense did give up the lead in 3 different games following a 4th quarter lead-taking drive with under 4 minutes to go.

 

The rest of the NFL is 27-5 (that's an .844 win percentage) in those situations, while we're 1-2 (a .333 win percentage) and our defense actually gave up the lead in all 3 cases and the win was after a 2nd such drive that ended as time expired, not giving our defense a second chance to relinquish the lead.

 

To me, that's pretty damning of the defense in all 3 of those games that we couldn't hold them for a win.  But even on the ones where we had left between 4 and 8 remaining after taking the lead, another couple of losses resulting, other teams are 11-3, which is almost as good as when leading under 4 minutes, at a .786 win percentage.

 

So the time left following these lead taking drives is still strongly correlated to winning games for most teams in the NFL, but not our team.

Edited November 21, 2015 by callahan09

[flynismo]

To get back to Callahans point on the 4 4th qtr comebacks that we lost the only one I give absolutely no creedence to is the Jags game with 7:36 left. Its a little much to ask the D to hold a 1 pt lead with that amount of time.

 

The rest

Raiders 2:13 left. Raiders drive down and score TD

Bengals 4:03 left. Bengals drive down score TD. Actually the Bengals retook the lead twice after Flacco led td drives.

Browns 6:00 left. Browns get td plus 2 pt conversion. 2 times couldn't be stopped out of the endzone..

 

We can also bring up dropped passes in the endzone and the times Joe had us in the end with a chance to win.

 

What really gets me is these Pees apologists with this crap about the 8th ranked D. So what!! How did we do in the 4th qtr of these games. And then this crap about ohhh its the DBs decision on how far to play back on the receiver but yet last game they decided to play tight. I guess that was on their own accord. lol. Yeah right.

That Bengals game really ticked me off, just like the playoff game @ NE last year. I never thought I'd see the day when a Ravens defense allowed that crap to happen. There have been quite a few times over the past few years where that has happened (Flacco coming back from behind multiple times in the 4th quarter of a game and the defense still did not hold up)

 

We do tend to hold the defense to a higher standard. And for good reason. Guys like Lewis, Reed, McAlister, Boulware, Suggs, Ngata, Goose, Adams, et al gave their blood, sweat and tears to establish the legacy of our new organization. There is a certain standard we expect this defense to play up to. Pees most certainly is not the only problem. But he IS a problem. I gave him the benefit of the doubt his entire tenure here, and defended him on many occassions. But no more. He is a big part of our defensive issues, there is not a shred of doubt about it in my mind anymore.

Edited November 21, 2015 by flynismo

[Virginia 55]

On what are you basing that? Madden? "Potential"? Media hype? In real life, I'll take Flacco and not think twice.

That's fair. I'm basing it off the only true measuring stick still available in football. The eyeball test. 

 

Flacco has done all the growing up he will do and this is the best it gets.  (I'm satisfied). Just not that impressed.  It's like having hot dogs for dinner.

 

Let's not turn this into a Luck Vs Flacco thread. I'm  talking about the end of the careers.  Not the here and now.

 

Our team needs to focus on what we need to do to make Flacco better. He still needs a lot of work.  smh  

Edited November 22, 2015 by Virginia 55

[flynismo]

That's fair. I'm basing it off the only true measuring stick still available in football. The eyeball test. 

 

Flacco has done all the growing up he will do and this is the best it gets.  (I'm satisfied). Just not that impressed.  It's like having hot dogs for dinner.

 

Let's not turn this into a Luck Vs Flacco thread. I'm  talking about the end of the careers.  Not the here and now.

 

Our team needs to focus on what we need to do to make Flacco better. He still needs a lot of work.  smh  

 

No, he really doesn't need much refinement at all. Just give him a decent OL and guys who can make plays here and there. We have no clue what his true ceiling is, eight years later, we still have yet to truly build the offense around him. I wouldn't want to turn this into a Luck vs Flacco thread either; frankly, I think it's highly insulting to a guy who has accomplished as much has Flacco has to even mention Luck in the same breath. We should be comparing Flacco with his equals, guys like Ben...

[Tank 92]

No, he really doesn't need much refinement at all. Just give him a decent OL and guys who can make plays here and there. We have no clue what his true ceiling is, eight years later, we still have yet to truly build the offense around him. I wouldn't want to turn this into a Luck vs Flacco thread either; frankly, I think it's highly insulting to a guy who has accomplished as much has Flacco has to even mention Luck in the same breath. We should be comparing Flacco with his equals, guys like Ben...

I'm glad you came back to post on these boards after a "hiatus". You say pretty much all of what I would say and save me a lot of frustration in dealing with the misconceptions of what Joe's game is really all about.

[Tru11]

score enough points in the first 3 quarters and make enough stops in the first 3 quarters and then the all this 4th quarter stuff becomes pointless.

 

if its a low scoring game going into the 4th it means the offense was terrible for most of the game.

if its a shoot out going into the 4th it means the defense sucked for most of the game.

[Tru11]

That Bengals game really ticked me off, just like the playoff game @ NE last year. I never thought I'd see the day when a Ravens defense allowed that crap to happen. There have been quite a few times over the past few years where that has happened (Flacco coming back from behind multiple times in the 4th quarter of a game and the defense still did not hold up)

 

We do tend to hold the defense to a higher standard. And for good reason. Guys like Lewis, Reed, McAlister, Boulware, Suggs, Ngata, Goose, Adams, et al gave their blood, sweat and tears to establish the legacy of our new organization. There is a certain standard we expect this defense to play up to. Pees most certainly is not the only problem. But he IS a problem. I gave him the benefit of the doubt his entire tenure here, and defended him on many occassions. But no more. He is a big part of our defensive issues, there is not a shred of doubt about it in my mind anymore.

 

guys like reed,lewis and Mcalister and such where all regarded as some of the best at their position.

heck reed and lewis probably will go down as the best there ever was at their position.

 

when you have that kind of talent coupled with that football IQ you can expect a certain standard.

when you dont have that anymore its highly unrealistic to still keep expecting that kind of standard.

 

either you think the players we have or as good as the guys you mentioned where or you think those guys where not as good as advertised.

 

then you also have to consider how in those days the rules where more favorable to the defense then they are now.

 

its like saying flacco should be able to produce just as good with aiken and givens as he did with boldin and torrey.

[Tank 92]

score enough points in the first 3 quarters and make enough stops in the first 3 quarters and then the all this 4th quarter stuff becomes pointless.

 

if its a low scoring game going into the 4th it means the offense was terrible for most of the game.

if its a shoot out going into the 4th it means the defense sucked for most of the game.

 

 

eh, If you look around at the scores each Sunday, this year the vast majority of games are decided by 10 points or less with many won by less than a TD. In the NFL today the comfortable win is the exception and not the rule, even for the most successful teams.  

 

The fact remains that the 4th quarter is, was and will always be the most important time in the game. What happens prior means nothing if you don't finish. 

[flynismo]

guys like reed,lewis and Mcalister and such where all regarded as some of the best at their position.

heck reed and lewis probably will go down as the best there ever was at their position.

 

when you have that kind of talent coupled with that football IQ you can expect a certain standard.

when you dont have that anymore its highly unrealistic to still keep expecting that kind of standard.

 

either you think the players we have or as good as the guys you mentioned where or you think those guys where not as good as advertised.

 

then you also have to consider how in those days the rules where more favorable to the defense then they are now.

 

its like saying flacco should be able to produce just as good with aiken and givens as he did with boldin and torrey.

 

To be clear, when I say "a certain standard", I didn't mean we should expect the 2006 defense every year. Although I generally think stats are unreliable, we need some kind of barometer, so let's say we expect our defense to play on the level of a top 12 defense, minimum.

[Tru11]

eh, If you look around at the scores each Sunday, this year the vast majority of games are decided by 10 points or less with many won by less than a TD. In the NFL today the comfortable win is the exception and not the rule, even for the most successful teams.  

 

The fact remains that the 4th quarter is, was and will always be the most important time in the game. What happens prior means nothing if you don't finish. 

 

the 4th is only important when you dont do what you had to do in the prior 3.

if you are getting blown out in the first 3 quarters the 4th wont even matter and same goes for when you are blowing out the opponent in the first 3 quarters.

 

when you are in a close game going into the 4th that means some where not doing what they where supposed to do in the prior 3.

 

which coming back to my point is that when you want to evaluate why you won or lost , you look at the entire game and not just the 4th quarter.

 

TBH i find it terrible flawed to wait to the 4th quarter to start to finish a game.

 

i rather be very aggressive and finish things off as soon as possible.

 

waiting till the 4th to start finishing is what gets us in trouble in the first place.

 

perfect example is the jags game.

 

we where ahead going into half time and we where ahead going into the 4th even after the offense having 3 straight turnovers and a punt in the 3rd.

 

its tnx to the defense it was still a game in the 4th.

if they did such a poor job as the offense the 4th would not even matter cause we would have been down by 27 points....

 

so if you wanna say we lost because of the defense go ahead but to be fair id say that 3rd quarter by the offense is what put us in position to loose it .

[Tru11]

To be clear, when I say "a certain standard", I didn't mean we should expect the 2006 defense every year. Although I generally think stats are unreliable, we need some kind of barometer, so let's say we expect our defense to play on the level of a top 12 defense, minimum.

 

that 2012 defense was still more talented then what we have now though.

 

we had difference makers on that team.

 

now we dont really have any.

 

reed at his age would not have dropped that ball lewis dropped for instance lol.

corey graham would have made this secondary so much better.

we could have used a kruger and mcphee right now to come in and provide a pass rush off the bench.

 

talent wise we are going backwards unless guys like brown and elam can make some strides, same goes for jernigan and other young players.

 

williams and mosley are the only guys who play at a high level although neither IMO come close to how ray and ngata where at that age though.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Tru11

[Tank 92]

the 4th is only important when you dont do what you had to do in the prior 3.

if you are getting blown out in the first 3 quarters the 4th wont even matter and same goes for when you are blowing out the opponent in the first 3 quarters.

 

when you are in a close game going into the 4th that means some where not doing what they where supposed to do in the prior 3.

 

which coming back to my point is that when you want to evaluate why you won or lost , you look at the entire game and not just the 4th quarter.

 

TBH i find it terrible flawed to wait to the 4th quarter to start to finish a game.

 

i rather be very aggressive and finish things off as soon as possible.

 

waiting till the 4th to start finishing is what gets us in trouble in the first place.

 

perfect example is the jags game.

 

we where ahead going into half time and we where ahead going into the 4th even after the offense having 3 straight turnovers and a punt in the 3rd.

 

its tnx to the defense it was still a game in the 4th.

if they did such a poor job as the offense the 4th would not even matter cause we would have been down by 27 points....

 

so if you wanna say we lost because of the defense go ahead but to be fair id say that 3rd quarter by the offense is what put us in position to loose it .

 

 

I'm not in that debate.  I think it's usually fairly obvious who fails and who succeeds at the end of games.

 

It's a fact that there are very few games decided anymore prior to the 4th quarter. The NFL has succeeded in finding the parity they have been looking for and blowout, or comfortable wins are rare. You gotta finish to win.  Just the way it is.  lol

[Tru11]

I'm not in that debate.  I think it's usually fairly obvious who fails and who succeeds at the end of games.

 

It's a fact that there are very few games decided anymore prior to the 4th quarter. The NFL has succeeded in finding the parity they have been looking for and blowout, or comfortable wins are rare. You gotta finish to win.  Just the way it is.  lol

 

so you are saying teams only look at what happened in the 4th and don't care what happened in the prior 3?

 

im pretty sure when teams breakdown film they look at every quarter and not just the 4th which is my point....

 

you have to start a game before you can even think about finishing and what happen in between is just as important.

[Virginia 55]

No, he really doesn't need much refinement at all. Just give him a decent OL and guys who can make plays here and there. We have no clue what his true ceiling is, eight years later, we still have yet to truly build the offense around him. I wouldn't want to turn this into a Luck vs Flacco thread either; frankly, I think it's highly insulting to a guy who has accomplished as much has Flacco has to even mention Luck in the same breath. We should be comparing Flacco with his equals, guys like Ben...

Flacco done for the year?????  http://www.nfl.com/

Bad time to discuss what he needs we can revisit this conversation  in the off-season.  

Get well soon Joe!!!

Happy holidays!

[Moderator 3]

True, this thread is now done.