The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Eh it is just like the injury excuse they are using for Luck. Or the lack of anything around him excuse for Cam.

But, when Flacco was out there with a leg brace and basically was a statue, they were all screaming he was garbage. That Flacco has put up with (outside of one year!) pretty much below par WRs his entire career is an excuse when talking about Flacco but legitimate gripe for anyone else.

Elite is subjective. For some it is any QB that wins their fantasy game that week. For others, it is about playoffs and SBs. Peyton Manning is by far the best for regular season stats but he is garbage come post season time. So does he really deserve that "best ever" title? Isn't it about the post season after all?

Brady is a dink and dunk master but if Flacco does that he is the "check down King" and a "game manager". The double standard is absurd.

They also forget that when we hit the 5 we run the ball in more often than not and wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more often than other teams. That affects the stat line.

We have been a ground and pound team for the bulk of Flacco's career and are even still trying to be that team. We are not the pass happy teams of these other QBs. That affects the stat line.

Bottom line: With WRs who shouldn't even be on an NFL team, the offense is still ranked within the Top 10 I believe. Where is the dismal defense? The ones these same people make excuses for ALL the time? Pretty sure outside of red zone D they are bottomed out. They can't even get TOs. Are about to set a record and not a good one.

Flacco is a darn good QB and if given at least average WRs will get us the wins. That should be all that matters but the agenda here is obvious.

Wow. I'm actually agreeing with you. I'll be damned.

Good show fellow Ravens fan! And for what it's worth I'm using incompetent management as an excuse for Luck. His team's identity is "give the ball to luck and then pray".

They'll probably come out and say , "they run the ball so often because they don't trust Flacco"... No we use the run to set up the pass. Nothing more. And it honestly has worked for us in the past. We're just missing some speed on the offense.

[flynismo]

Why are you just looking at 1 year? Boldin was here for 3, so compare that to Edelman's last 3 seasons. The stats are very close. I posted them earlier in this thread. Guess you missed them.

Just for simplicity sake; and also so nobody thinks I'm just cherry-picking Edelman's best years.

 

I did miss your post about their stats, but I can tell you Edelman posts about 75% more receptions annually than Boldin did, more yards as a result, I think their TD totals were pretty close though. Edelman had a few more, but nothing worth talking about

[flynismo]

While I didn't have time to read your book, I can't wait 'til the movie comes out entitled "Joe Flacco's Elite." Seriously though, I want to thank you for offering your opinion on why you think Joe is not an elite QB. The fact that you even invoked Andy Dalton into the discussion is hilarious after last night's debacle before a national audience. What was it that JJ Watt called him again? Oh yeah, the Red Ryder bee bee gun! Its obvious that many fans like you and the rookie don't understand the meaning of the word elite as evidenced by the fact that we are having a discussion or debate about who is and who ain't. Well, let me try one more time to explain it to you in a rational and non-condescending way for the sake of the neophyte blogger who has even thinner skin than Andy Dalton. Here goes.... The small group of men who have been elected President of the US is elite by any definition. You may not like their politics and you may debate until you're blue in the face their respective ranking or their greatness. It doesn't matter. Its an elite group of 44 men since our nation began. Similarly, the small group of men who have led their respective football team to a Super Bowl victory is elite. Again, you may not like how some of them throw off their back foot and make seemingly mindless mistakes at times. You may also debate who is the greatest of his era or who is the GOAT. It simply doesn't matter. Like I said previously, there have only been 49 Super Bowl games and only 29 quarterbacks have won. That places the victorious QBs in a very elite group of men, dating back to January 15, 1967. So, I'm not saying Joe is one of the greatest QBs of all time. I'm saying he's elite by any definition of the word elite. I apologize for the long-winded nature of my reply to your epistle but I felt the need to explain why our quarterback is one of the elite QBs in the NFL. Unfortunately, the word elite is used too loosely and misunderstood by many well-meaning sports fans to the point its almost become a trite expression. BTW, like it or not, agree or disagree, Trent Dilfer is also in this elite fraternity of 29 men. He's ranked 29th for what it's worth. To coin a phrase from Clark Gable, "frankly, my dear, I don't think Trent gives a darn!" Thanks for the opportunity to engage in some intelligent & bold discourse!

Do I think Flacco's "elite"? I still haven't decided on how to even define that word. From a purely skill perspective, there is no question he is. But that is not the only possible definition, so...yeah...but, I don't think winning a SB is a good measuring stick. That would be an element in another possible definition, which would consist of career accomplishments, which while Flacco has already accumulated a ton of accolades in his young career, he isn't quite there yet as far as that goes.

[GhostofGrbac]

Just for simplicity sake; and also so nobody thinks I'm just cherry-picking Edelman's best years.

 

I did miss your post about their stats, but I can tell you Edelman posts about 75% more receptions annually than Boldin did, more yards as a result, I think their TD totals were pretty close though. Edelman had a few more, but nothing worth talking about

 

Yeah Edelman has more receptions(past 3 seasons), but he surprisingly only had 75 more yards than Boldin did in his 3 years here. 

 

It's just closer than most people think when you really dig into the stats. I personally think Edelman is a product of the system to an extent. I don't think he'd have half the production if he was on another team. 

[Ravenseconbeast]

Do I think Flacco's "elite"? I still haven't decided on how to even define that word. From a purely skill perspective, there is no question he is. But that is not the only possible definition, so...yeah...but, I don't think winning a SB is a good measuring stick. That would be an element in another possible definition, which would consist of career accomplishments, which while Flacco has already accumulated a ton of accolades in his young career, he isn't quite there yet as far as that goes.

You are wavering... Mr.President of FLF.

[flynismo]

Yeah Edelman has more receptions(past 3 seasons), but he surprisingly only had 75 more yards than Boldin did in his 3 years here. 

 

It's just closer than most people think when you really dig into the stats. I personally think Edelman is a product of the system to an extent. I don't think he'd have half the production if he was on another team. 

 

Personally, I'm not really a stat guy in the sense of saying "x is better than y", way too many factors come into play. I don't think that Edelman is a product of the system anymore than Brady is. What I mean by that is that their current offense is built around them and allows them to play at 100% of their potential. Edelman's stats may/may not drop if he were elsewhere, just depends on how and how often he is used. But he isn't any less talented if his stats dropped, would just be a reflection of the offense as a whole. To put it another way, I'd be pretty dang excited if I woke up tomorrow and saw that we signed (healthy) Edelman

[flynismo]

You are wavering... Mr.President of FLF.

lol! I had a moment of weakness, purple shades will be back on soon enough

[redrum52]

lol! I had a moment of weakness, purple shades will be back on soon enough

You're one of the easiest people to have a good convo with.  For one, you admit you're a Flacco fan boy(no insult intended) and you're actually pretty damn reasonable.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Edelman is a product of a system. Use the eye test. No edleman is not better than 2010-2014 boldin. And he's never been better than SSS.

he is a product of brady. Hugely overrated. If boldin had brady over the last 5 years his numbers would be off the charts.

Edelman is not just a product of the system. Amendola who was considered among the most talented slot WRs when healthly, yet can't hold Edelmans jock in the same system.

That's what most said about Welker too, who went on to have a ton of success in Denver before concussions ruined him.

I think it's safe to say that most receivers who have had success would also be successful with Brady. But to do what Edelman does requires a certain skill set and athleticism. A set that Boldin doesn't have.

I think Boldin would have done very well with Brady but not all that much better than he did with Flacco. He'd be clutch, his go to on 3rd downs and the red zone but he doesn't have the quickness or agility in small spaces to play that Edelman/Welker high volume role.

And he doesn't have the speed or leaping ability to do what Moss did. And he doesn't have the size or mismatch ability to do what Gronk does.

He would be in the Deion Branch and currently LaFell role. While Boldin is far and away better than anyone they've had in that role... It's still most often the 3rd option.

Edelman is a top notch route runner, has incredible hands, is only a notch below Boldin and SSS in toughness and is great after the catch.

I agree he needs a certain role to be his best, but in that role hes one of the best in the game.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Nice to see a well thought out response around here, instead of the usual drivel.

I'm only responding to this sentence, because this seems to be the common thought about Flacco -- that he makes an unacceptable number of mistakes each game.

Can we all agree that say, Rodgers and Brees are elite? They are future HOF players, so that should say enough about that...

Now, GB happens to be my "NFC team", and I just truly enjoy Brees, so I watch each of them play about 5 - 6 times per year.

I can promise you, they make just as many mistakes every single week. HOWEVER, they also have the system and supporting cast to consistently make up for those mistakes, so their mistakes are not as glaring as Flacco's is.

The Flacco critics have it all wrong. Flacco isn't some mistake-prone buffoon (at least not abnormally so). What they SHOULD be knocking Flacco for is not making enough big plays to make up for those mistakes -- but they know exactly why it doesn't happen, so they'd rather make the easy argument.

I'll defer here because I don't watch Rodgers and Brees enough to provide a first hand account to the contrary...

And I don't feel that Flacco has been overly mistake prone over his career. My issue this season has been either the timing of his mistakes or the manner in which they happen.

I can accept a physical mistake like an over/under thrown ball or poor placement, not enough zip, etc... That happens to everyone.

But this year it seems he's had an abnormal number of INTs where he's completely stared down his receiver (the Denver pick 6, an INT against either Oak or Cin come to mind) where everyone and their mother knows where he's going with the ball and the DB is jumping the route before Joe even releases the ball.

Also, normally Joe has been great at shrugging a mistake off and getting right back into the game. Back to back INTs followed by a fumble is unacceptable and entirely out of character.

Aside from just that example, it seems this year that mistakes are effecting him longer than usual. His head goes down and then struggles to get anything going on the following series. And he'll be tentative or gun shy.

It also shows in how he's almost force fed SSS when healthy, and for long periods this weekend with Aiken. I know there's a method to that madness in that there just isn't any reliable talent behind them. But he's clearly been at his best this season when spreading the ball around, getting the TEs, Juice and guys like Givens and Ross involved in the passing game.

It seems like he's been afraid to throw their way bc of what might happen as opposed to just going through his progressions and targeting the proper read. He's often locked on to that 1st read, an stared it down waiting and waiting for even the slightest opportunity to squeeze it in... Or at times throw it even when there was absolutely no chance of completing it.

I've also seen a bad trend in his pocket presence that is new. Far too often when pressure comes off the edge he's fading back into the pressure so he's either throwing off his back foot while getting hit, leading to errant throws and INTs... Or he's getting sacked instead of climbing the pocket, letting the tackles push the pressure around him and stepping into a throw... Or at least buy himself that extra second or minimize the loss if he does get sacked.

It's just a few things... Not necessarily the volume of turnovers but more so the nature of them as well as his pocket mechanics/presence.

[1/28/01]

You're one of the easiest people to have a good convo with. For one, you admit you're a Flacco fan boy(no insult intended) and you're actually pretty damn reasonable.

Agree. Fly's always been easy to get along with.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I love me some Flacco... Not too much, or as much as fly, but I'm happy we have him. Just pissed that people don't seem to understand that getting rid of him is pretty much franchise suicide.

[redrum52]

I love me some Flacco... Not too much, or as much as fly, but I'm happy we have him. Just pissed that people don't seem to understand that getting rid of him is pretty much franchise suicide.

Like Tru said, people are panicking. They want a rebuild, a new qb, coaches, gm... the whole works. They don't seem to understand how good our core group actually is.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Like Tru said, people are panicking. They want a rebuild, a new qb, coaches, gm... the whole works. They don't seem to understand how good our core group actually is.

And young. I'm a more moderate Flacco fan but have to adamantly defend the guy because people here are.. What's the word. Football anarchists because of panic. Their solution is destroy everything and rebuild. Which would be foolish.

Keep Flacco around, keep Trestman, keep Jimmy, CJ, Jernigan,Davis, Maxx, Williams,Hill, Doom, etc etc. A few skill position players and one more WR will make this team a lot better

[flynismo]

Like Tru said, people are panicking. They want a rebuild, a new qb, coaches, gm... the whole works. They don't seem to understand how good our core group actually is.

 

I want to agree, I hate saying otherwise about our team as much as anyone. In this league, to be successful, you need a few things.

 

1. All starts with QB. If you don't have that, you're done. We have that

2. Pass rush. Injuries and scheme have destroyed ours. Looking into next year and beyond, we need to address that this coming offseason, else we will be without again, due to the age of our OLB

3. Defensive turnovers. We aren't anywhere near acceptable in this area, and I do not have an answer why that is. But I think that is mainly a personnel issue, if I had to guess.

4. Playmakers at WR. Our lone playmaker has been dealing with injuries nearly all year and is out for the year on IR. Our cupboard is absolutely bare. At this point, we have to act as if Perriman is a bust when it comes time to address the offense.

5. Either a decent running game, or a solid OL. As we're seeing not just with Flacco, but with Rodgers and Peyton (and to an extent, Brees -- and yes, much of Peyton's issues are his own), if you're not running the ball consistently well, and not doing a good enough job protecting the QB as well, defenses are going to tee off, and make your $100m QB look like a fool. We aren't good enough here. I like Trestman overall, but the running game is on him. He needs to improve here big time if he wants a job here next year. Pass protection, well, I've never been a Monroe fan at all, and he is again showing why when he manages to find his way onto the field. The rest of the OL, save for Yanda of course, has been very inconsistent, at best.

 

We do have some very promising and very talented players. But, I'm afraid to say that while we may not be as bad as some people think, we are also facing a very real danger of this season not being a weird anamoly, but possibly foreshadowing what's to come next year, and possibly even further into the future.

 

We'll see what this offseason brings. But, we need to pray for two things:

1. Perriman is who we thought he was.

2. We need to have a hugely successful offseason. That means wisely unloading bad contracts without digging a hole with dead money, a Flacco extension or restructure needs to be achieved, smart FA signings, and a fantastic draft.

 

Before I sound too morose, there is a lot of hope for optimism regarding the above. Many of you will disagree, but Perriman I do believe is the real deal. I won't go so far as to say he is the next Julio Jones, but he has big time talent, and even if he isn't the next Julio, he has a QB that will get every last bit of production out of him possible.

And of course, Ozzie, DeCosta and Harbs...these guys are human and will make the occassional mistake, but they are acknowledged as being among the best in the business for very, very good reason. We are in good hands with them.

[redrum52]

I want to agree, I hate saying otherwise about our team as much as anyone. In this league, to be successful, you need a few things.

1. All starts with QB. If you don't have that, you're done. We have that

2. Pass rush. Injuries and scheme have destroyed ours. Looking into next year and beyond, we need to address that this coming offseason, else we will be without again, due to the age of our OLB

3. Defensive turnovers. We aren't anywhere near acceptable in this area, and I do not have an answer why that is. But I think that is mainly a personnel issue, if I had to guess.

4. Playmakers at WR. Our lone playmaker has been dealing with injuries nearly all year and is out for the year on IR. Our cupboard is absolutely bare. At this point, we have to act as if Perriman is a bust when it comes time to address the offense.

5. Either a decent running game, or a solid OL. As we're seeing not just with Flacco, but with Rodgers and Peyton (and to an extent, Brees -- and yes, much of Peyton's issues are his own), if you're not running the ball consistently well, and not doing a good enough job protecting the QB as well, defenses are going to tee off, and make your $100m QB look like a fool. We aren't good enough here. I like Trestman overall, but the running game is on him. He needs to improve here big time if he wants a job here next year. Pass protection, well, I've never been a Monroe fan at all, and he is again showing why when he manages to find his way onto the field. The rest of the OL, save for Yanda of course, has been very inconsistent, at best.

We do have some very promising and very talented players. But, I'm afraid to say that while we may not be as bad as some people think, we are also facing a very real danger of this season not being a weird anamoly, but possibly foreshadowing what's to come next year, and possibly even further into the future.

We'll see what this offseason brings. But, we need to pray for two things:

1. Perriman is who we thought he was.

2. We need to have a hugely successful offseason. That means wisely unloading bad contracts without digging a hole with dead money, a Flacco extension or restructure needs to be achieved, smart FA signings, and a fantastic draft.

Before I sound too morose, there is a lot of hope for optimism regarding the above. Many of you will disagree, but Perriman I do believe is the real deal. I won't go so far as to say he is the next Julio Jones, but he has big time talent, and even if he isn't the next Julio, he has a QB that will get every last bit of production out of him possible.

And of course, Ozzie, DeCosta and Harbs...these guys are human and will make the occassional mistake, but they are acknowledged as being among the best in the business for very, very good reason. We are in good hands with them.

We have the qb.

You never have enough pass rush help and thats rings truer when one of your best is coming back with an achilles.

I've agreed it's probably time for Pees to go, but because it doesn't seem like he can get consistent play from our group. Not saying it's all his fault, but maybe a new voice will help.

Like you said, we have to move forward as if Permian isn't even there. I'm not saying use the first pick on a wr(unless he's the best available, but must be considered with one of the top picks(1-4), I think. Preferably used as for trade or maybe a FA move.

I can't answer the OL question until we know for sure what's happening with KO. LT is a problem cause we never seem to know if Monroe will play, and if he does, will he be productive. I would not be surprised to see us pick a RB early as well. My hope is we stick to what Ozzie does best. Go defensive, cause we're in dire need of another CB/OLB just as much as at WR.

Like you said, these early picks need to be IMPACT players. Can't miss on the first 3, another reason I wouldn't mind a trade, or to maybe trade down the 2nd, back into the first if there is another player available we really like. This needs to be looked at as a long haul draft. Something where we really reload for the future and don't look back.

Perriman can be good, it's just disappointing not seeing him play, and I think the stigma that comes with being a receiver Ozzie drafted.

I love watching a good defense. Offense is cool and all, but I'd love to get some damn thumpers back on our team. We need some hard hitters and SPEED, and speed on both sides of the ball.

I have no problem with the FO guys. They're probably more mad than we are for what's happened this season and I'm damn sure they'll get it straight. Everyone complains about it now, but after the 13 season, they said the problems would be corrected and we almost beat the eventual champs the next year(even though I'm tired of being knocked out by the team that gets to the SB).

Edited November 18, 2015 by redrum52

[Grapple Raven]

Honestly, I don't know what more can be said about Flacco than what had been discussed ad nauseam in the 68 pages of this thread, and the other threads on him. lol 

 

But guys if the discourse doesn't get back on track without the name calling, personal attacks, and the bickering, then I am afraid this thread has run its course.  If you don't want that to happen then please return to a civilized discussion on the topic as that is all we ask. Thanks!

[Winchester]

I could state a VERY strong case that only Brady and Ben are outplaying Joe Cool!! And they both have stud receivers!!

[GhostofGrbac]

I could state a VERY strong case that only Brady and Ben are outplaying Joe Cool!! And they both have stud receivers!!

 

I'd love to hear this. 

[BmoreBird22]

So, just so we're clear

From day one, Steve was actually helping Cam put up record breaking numbers. Steve in his first year with Cam put up 1,300 yards, 7 touchdowns, and 70 catches and followed it up with the same amount if catches, 1,100 yards, and four touchdowns in year two. Is that really Cam not having chemistry with Steve or am I just crazy?

And as far as Edelman goes, he's had one 1,000 yard receiving season because in 2012, he played in 13 games and put up 950 yards and this year, in nine games, he had 650 yards and seven touchdowns, clearly on pace for 1,000 yards and more.

Just wanted to clear up some fallacies

[Tru11]

So, just so we're clear

From day one, Steve was actually helping Cam put up record breaking numbers. Steve in his first year with Cam put up 1,300 yards, 7 touchdowns, and 70 catches and followed it up with the same amount if catches, 1,100 yards, and four touchdowns in year two. Is that really Cam not having chemistry with Steve or am I just crazy?

And as far as Edelman goes, he's had one 1,000 yard receiving season because in 2012, he played in 13 games and put up 950 yards and this year, in nine games, he had 650 yards and seven touchdowns, clearly on pace for 1,000 yards and more.

Just wanted to clear up some fallacies

 

nope sums it up pretty well.

[Purple_City39]

Like Tru said, people are panicking. They want a rebuild, a new qb, coaches, gm... the whole works. They don't seem to understand how good our core group actually is.

It confuses me why people want a whole new team.  With all these injuries, no star WR, an iffy run game, and bad secondary play we still manage to be right there at the end of every game, even against top teams.  This 2015 team is a couple of players away from 7-2 instead of 2-7 so you don't blow up that team.  Suggs alone being healthy likely adds at least 2 wins

[BmoreBird22]

nope sums it up pretty well.

I'm seeing all these arguments that are clearly just wrong or half told to tailor to the person's own agenda and it's kinda annoying to see no one correct it

[usmccharles]

It confuses me why people want a whole new team.  With all these injuries, no star WR, an iffy run game, and bad secondary play we still manage to be right there at the end of every game, even against top teams.  This 2015 team is a couple of players away from 7-2 instead of 2-7 so you don't blow up that team.  Suggs alone being healthy likely adds at least 2 wins

How dare you speak logic.  How can you not see the sky is falling....

[Tru11]

I'm seeing all these arguments that are clearly just wrong or half told to tailor to the person's own agenda and it's kinda annoying to see no one correct it

 

it is but i cant be bothered anymore to reply to everyone lol.

[RaineV1]

Teams that keep trying to rebuild never do well. Look at the Browns. How many coaches and QBs have they been through since returning to the league? You do sometimes have to do it, but it should be a last resort.

Edited November 19, 2015 by RaineV1

[BmoreBird22]

it is but i cant be bothered anymore to reply to everyone lol.

Especially when I come in 12 pages late

[redrum52]

Teams that keep trying to rebuild never do well. Look at the Browns. How many coaches and QBs have they been through since returning to the league? You do sometimes how to do it, but it should be a last resort.

I can't believe how many picks the Browns have messed up in the past 5-6 years. Their FO is hot garbage and are lucky to have such loyal fans.

[Tru11]

Especially when I come in 12 pages late

 

true lol

[RaineV1]

I can't believe how many picks the Browns have messed up in the past 5-6 years. Their FO is hot garbage and are lucky to have such loyal fans.

Not even just in the last 6 years, but since they returned to the NFL in 1999 they've been messing up. The only players they've gotten that actually played like first rounders for them were Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, and Joe Haden. They picked up a couple okay players too, but those three were really the only ones to make a big impact for the Browns. That's 3 out of 20 first round picks.