The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[arnie_uk]

This pilING on of flacco is an absolute joke. Just look at the cowboys, 7 game losing streak without Romo.

[Sami84]

Why is it when other QBs constantly get bailed out by superstar WRs with circus catches all the credit is given to the QB. When Flacco gets a WR who can do the same its all on the WR and the QB basically played only the 'small' part of getting the ball there? Matt Ryan surrounded in big time weapons his entire career, Manning always had great WRs who could make big game catches. Big Ben as well, heck Hines Ward caught so many poorly thrown balls from Ben (namely the low passes) because he was able to get down low enough to grab him and again the QB got all the credit. I'm not saying you're doing it but it just looks like nobody wants to give Flacco credit for anything. When he had weapons that were playing great (Boldin, Pitta during the playoff run) he did what every other QB who wins big games does, win. He is not a HOF QB but he is not nearly as horrible as people make him out to be. In my opinion. With some of these people's logic, we could of had Boller at QB and won the SB.

 

Bens so consistent though. Flacco is as skip bayless (whom I'm not a fan of) said '' the best worst QB i've ever seen''.

 

He hit fire at the right time and boldin made some incredible plays. We had a bit of luck..which is needed

 

I'm just saying joe flacco is not even a very good QB/ He's a weird qb that can have elite flurries but generally plays average to below average for his career.

[TSizzle00]

Bens so consistent though. Flacco is as skip bayless (whom I'm not a fan of) said '' the best worst QB i've ever seen''.

 

He hit fire at the right time and boldin made some incredible plays. We had a bit of luck..which is needed

 

I'm just saying joe flacco is not even a very good QB/ He's a weird qb that can have elite flurries but generally plays average to below average for his career.

 

You're correct. He is a system QB though that needs some things in his favor to be successful Why the Ravens cannot provide him with this is beyond frustrating. Constant OC changes, bringing in weapons past their prime will never help Flacco. Ravens have had bad luck when it comes to offensive weapons however with the injuries or players simply not working out. At this point the Ravens should have an established offense that is somewhat consistent. Rice, Pitta, Jones, Boldin and Smith were well rounded enough to do that but, Rice acted stupid, Pitta kept getting hurt, Jones was well Jones which is inconsistent with bone head mistakes at times and Smith just showed that he can't be 'The Guy'. I liked Boldin though but one person was not going to save this offense.

[flynismo]

the moment you put flacco between brady and rodgers i stopped reading

That's exactly what your problem is

[flynismo]

 

i dont see brady throwing jumpballs , force edelman to make bodycatches or force him to make catches behind him.

 

 

 

Not that I'd blame you, but all that tells me is that you must not watch NE games very often

[Sami84]

ok basically if we have an insanely good running game and a top 5 pass protection O line and 2 brow bowl calibre WR"s along with an excellent tight end joe flacco will win you games..combined with a very good OC.

 

okay great then..

[berad]

ok basically if we have an insanely good running game and a top 5 pass protection O line and 2 brow bowl calibre WR"s along with an excellent tight end joe flacco will win you games..combined with a very good OC.

 

okay great then..

Did we have all of those things when we were setting records for winning?

[jazz1988]

You're correct. He is a system QB though that needs some things in his favor to be successful Why the Ravens cannot provide him with this is beyond frustrating. Constant OC changes, bringing in weapons past their prime will never help Flacco. Ravens have had bad luck when it comes to offensive weapons however with the injuries or players simply not working out. At this point the Ravens should have an established offense that is somewhat consistent. Rice, Pitta, Jones, Boldin and Smith were well rounded enough to do that but, Rice acted stupid, Pitta kept getting hurt, Jones was well Jones which is inconsistent with bone head mistakes at times and Smith just showed that he can't be 'The Guy'. I liked Boldin though but one person was not going to save this offense.

 

 

I think every quarterback is system quarterback and  two of  the best quarterbacks in the league are system quarterbacks from Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. You take those guys out of the system in which fits them best  then most likely they not going to be successful as previously.

Edited November 17, 2015 by jazz1988

[Ravens4Real]

The reason Flacco never gets weapons, or supposively doesn't have weapons (depending who you talk to on this site. To some our WR's are just trash cans that don't move), is because we have to worst evaluators of WR's out of anyone in the league.

We simply can't draft WR's. Either that, or we can't develope them for whatever reason because none have looked special with Flacco. May be some of the blame is on Flacco for that, also.

[berad]

I think every quarterback is system quarterback two the best quarterbacks in the league are system quarterbacks from Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. you take those guys out of the system they are accustom to then most likely they not going to be successful  as they have in the past.

Seriously. The tears from Peyton Manning when mean old Kubiak made him learn a new system. Joe Flacco is on his 4th coordinator in as many years. WHICH system is Flacco supposedly tied to? He's been in them all and performed.

[jazz1988]

 

The reason Flacco never gets weapons, or supposively doesn't have weapons (depending who you talk to on this site. To some our WR's are just trash cans that don't move), is because we have to worst evaluators of WR's out of anyone in the league.

We simply can't draft WR's. Either that, or we can't develope them for whatever reason because none have looked special with Flacco. May be some of the blame is on Flacco for that, also.

 

 

The Patriots haven't done a great job at all with developing their own receivers either.

[redrum52]

This pilING on of flacco is an absolute joke. Just look at the cowboys, 7 game losing streak without Romo.

I don't know if you made a really good point. We have the same record with dour qb...

I get what you're saying though.

[RaineV1]

I think every quarterback is system quarterback two the best quarterbacks in the league are system quarterbacks from Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. you take those guys out of the system they are accustom to then most likely they not going to be successful  as they have in the past.

Fully agree. Trestman may make some odd calls at times, but I would love it if he stuck around for the long term, and for the Ravens to build a team around Flacco that fits Trestman's playcalling.

Edited November 17, 2015 by RaineV1

[jazz1988]

Seriously. The tears from Peyton Manning when mean old Kubiak made him learn a new system. Joe Flacco is on his 4th coordinator in as many years. WHICH system is Flacco supposedly tied to? He's been in them all and performed.

 

I don't think Ravens fans consider how hard it is for a quarterback to adjust consistently to a new offensive coordinator like Flacco has and that's with out even mentioning the quarterback coach position as well.

[arnie_uk]

I don't know if you made a really good point. We have the same record with dour qb...

I get what you're saying though.

out issue is clear defense, they were 2 and 0 before the injury. They'll likely go on a run then when he gets back.

[jazz1988]

Fully agree. Trestman may make some odd calls at times, but I would love it if he stuck around for the long term, and for the Ravens to build a team around Flacco that fits Trestman's playcalling.

 

I feel the same. The Ravens need to build a offensive system in which they can see themselves running for many years to come and I think keeping Trestman around is a  great way of doing that.  Harbaugh already mention how he want's to keep  Gary Kubiak offensive system in place and I think Trestman has done a good job of that but it will do wonders for Joe Flacco if they can build from there.

 

Trestman doesn't usually stay on a team for more than four years so I think it makes sense for Harbaugh to alteast have a  prime candidate to replace him   and that guy most likely would be Ravens  quarterback coach Marty Mornhinweg but what's important is for them to keep the same offensive system in place. 

[usmccharles]

I think every quarterback is system quarterback and  two of  the best quarterbacks in the league are system quarterbacks from Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. You take those guys out of the system in which fits them best  to then most likely they not going to be successful as previously.

this. Remember when Tom Brady went down in week 1 and Matt Cassel took the patriots to a 11-5.  Matt Cassel....

[gtalk12]

The reason Flacco never gets weapons, or supposively doesn't have weapons (depending who you talk to on this site. To some our WR's are just trash cans that don't move), is because we have to worst evaluators of WR's out of anyone in the league.

We simply can't draft WR's. Either that, or we can't develope them for whatever reason because none have looked special with Flacco. May be some of the blame is on Flacco for that, also.

 

Like who?

[TSizzle00]

this. Remember when Tom Brady went down in week 1 and Matt Cassel took the patriots to a 11-5.  Matt Cassel....

 

11-5 with a stacked team that won 18 games the season prior lol. He wouldn't win 10 games with last years NE's team IMO

[52520Andrew]

Kinda hard to compare receiving cores with the Pats without mentioning the biggest mismatch in the NFL.

Okay we mentioned it later but Flacco has never had a player like that. I'd take Gronk and Edelman over Boldin and Torrey any day of the week.

Edited November 17, 2015 by 52520Andrew

[Tru11]

Kinda hard to compare receiving cores with the Pats without mentioning the biggest mismatch in the NFL.

Okay we mentioned it later but Flacco has never had a player like that. I'd take Gronk and Edelman over Boldin and Torrey any day of the week.

 

meh id take gronk with anyone tbh lol.

[ravensdfan]

Did we have all of those things when we were setting records for winning?

I'm just trying to remember when we had 2 pro bowl WRs at the same time lol

[arnie_uk]

not really.

a catchable ball on a slant can lead to a catch.

brady however hits edelman in stride which is why he makes plays.

i dont see brady throwing jumpballs , force edelman to make bodycatches or force him to make catches behind him.

if he did he would not be as succesfull.....

so you didn't see him on sunday throw a pick in the end zone which lead to the giants taking the lead instead of new england killing the game off?

Or in the 2 min drill down by 1, he threw up a back foot wobbler, identical to Bortles did, and the defender let it go right through his hands, identical to Lewis, that should have cost them the game? It would have been two interceptions in 2 throws. The announcer then went on to state how brady badly missies hos best receiver in edelman, getting the excuses ready when it looked like brady would mess it up, the same excuses people get abused for when talking about flacco.

All qbs make bad throws and bad decisions, none are perfect.

I don't think alot of people here watch other teams and just read stat lines and judge other qbs from that.

[GhostofGrbac]

No friend, you are the delusional one. Edelman LAST year (92 rec, 974 yards, 4 TD) was better than anything Boldin did for us in his time here, and this season, Edelman has been on fire.

 

If you are going to call people "delusional", at least keep the conversation consistent. We are talking about Boldin WHEN HE PLAYED FOR US, not Boldin throughout his career.

 

Why are you just looking at 1 year? Boldin was here for 3, so compare that to Edelman's last 3 seasons. The stats are very close. I posted them earlier in this thread. Guess you missed them.

[52520Andrew]

meh id take gronk with anyone tbh lol.

Gronk and Marlon Brown?

[ravensdfan]

so you didn't see him on sunday throw a pick in the end zone which lead to the giants taking the lead instead of new england killing the game off?

Or in the 2 min drill down by 1, he threw up a back foot wobbler, identical to Bortles did, and the defender let it go right through his hands, identical to Lewis, that should have cost them the game? It would have been two interceptions in 2 throws. The announcer then went on to state how brady badly missies hos best receiver in edelman, getting the excuses ready when it looked like brady would mess it up, the same excuses people get abused for when talking about flacco.

All qbs make bad throws and bad decisions, none are perfect.

I don't think alot of people here watch other teams and just read stat lines and judge other qbs from that.

Eh it is just like the injury excuse they are using for Luck. Or the lack of anything around him excuse for Cam.

 

But, when Flacco was out there with a leg brace and basically was a statue, they were all screaming he was garbage. That Flacco has put up with (outside of one year!) pretty much below par WRs his entire career is an excuse when talking about Flacco but legitimate gripe for anyone else.

 

Elite is subjective. For some it is any QB that wins their fantasy game that week. For others, it is about playoffs and SBs. Peyton Manning is by far the best for regular season stats but he is garbage come post season time. So does he really deserve that "best ever" title? Isn't it about the post season after all?

 

Brady is a dink and dunk master but if Flacco does that he is the "check down King" and a "game manager". The double standard is absurd.

 

They also forget that when we hit the 5 we run the ball in more often than not and wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more often than other teams. That affects the stat line.

 

We have been a ground and pound team for the bulk of Flacco's career and are even still trying to be that team. We are not the pass happy teams of these other QBs. That affects the stat line.

 

Bottom line: With WRs who shouldn't even be on an NFL team, the offense is still ranked within the Top 10 I believe. Where is the dismal defense? The ones these same people make excuses for ALL  the time? Pretty sure outside of red zone D they are bottomed out. They can't even get TOs. Are about to set a record and not a good one.

 

Flacco is a darn good QB and if given at least average WRs will get us the wins. That should be all that matters but the agenda here is obvious.

[Tru11]

Gronk and Marlon Brown?

 

 

sure why not.

 

gronk is doing his thing and he makes life easier for everyone lol

[frozen joe flacco fan]

I appreciate the condescending tone of your post my friend.

There's clearly no point in having this discussion if you truly think Dilferer was elite.

 

You're right! There is no sense in having a discussion with you. I'll have it with someone who can advance a cogent argument.

[redrum52]

Guys, guys. Simmer down. This team sucks. Why are you getting worked up?

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Winning a Super Bowl doesn't make you an elite QB; at least by the definition of elite that is implied when used in the QB ranking discussion.

Elite in that regard means a small group of the absolute best at the position that have a rare skill set that sets them apart from the vast majority of players at the position.

As you mentioned 8 active QBs have win a SB. Correctly you pointed out that's 25% of the starting QBs in the league. That's hardly an elite group. You keep using the phrase "Elite 8" but at least that refers to the final 8 out of a group of what... 66 now with the play in games? About 12%.

I don't think "Elite" has a percentage because at any given time there could be 6 elite QBs or only 1. Depends if we're talking elite in comparison to all QBs that ever played, or just in comparison to the current crop. I think the usual conversation includes the all-time list.

But back to your 25% elite definition. Would you consider everyone in a class that gets a 75% or above on a test to be Elite in that subject? Not a great example... But I think if 25 out of 100 can do anything - that's a wide invitation to the elite club.

And sorry, but Dilfer wasn't elite. Not even for one special season. The defense was elite, it just took an average QB not to screw things up to win that title.

And if you're going to make elite a finite thing, as in one can be elite this season and not the next... Then your argument for Flacco being elite is ruined. Because he certainly hasn't been among the top performing QBs this season.

You can't say Flacco is elite bc he's one of 8 actives to win a SB and then say Dilfer was elite for one season when he won it but not any other season. Bc then you're defining eliteness as only pertaining to the season in which the SB was won. In that case Flacco was only elite in 2012. And there's only 1 elite QB each season.

If so, Brady is the most elite QB in the Nfl right now bc he's been elite, what 4 times? Followed by Ben and Eli who are twice elite.

And then Brees Flacco, Rodgers, Peyton and Russell Wilson are all on the exact same level.

Which we all know is not the case. So stop mocking the "rookies" definition of elite when you clearly can't stick to one of your own. And the perimeters of eliteness that you have used are completely useless for the actual evaluation of QB play and quality which is what the whole "elite" argument is supposed to do.

And I love Flacco but it'd be tough to put him ahead of Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Ben, Eli, Palmer, Cam or Dalton right now this season.

And there's a crop of guys like Ryan, Carr, Brees, Fitzpatrick, Tyrod, Mariota, and Bortles who are all having pretty good years as well. Flacco certainly hasn't had much help around him but there's no excusing a majority of the interceptions he's thrown or the 2 big fumbles.

He's definitely playing below that top group (pretty close to Cam except Cams protecting the ball) and near the top of that bottom group though everyone in that 2nd tier has had incredible games but like Flacco have been inconsistent or turn the ball over too much.

No doubt he needs better weapons, but he isn't playing anywhere close to an Elite QB this season... And has never done it consistently enough throughout his career which is why the debate continues.

On any given day he can outplay anyone including Brady and Rodgers. Likewise on any given day he can be outplayed by a McCown or a Carr.

How many QBs can you name that have thrown back to back INTs followed by a fumble?

How many QBs have been in position to win 2 games with time expiring in the 4th qtr only to force a bad throw into double coverage resulting in an INT to lose the game?

Or throw a game losing pick 6 bc they badly stared down their receiver immediately after taking the lead?

Granted in every situation he either battled back after the terrible mistakes to have a chance at winning or led incredible drives to get into a game winning position before the bad mistake that cost the game.... But thus is the maddening frustration that can be Joe Flacco as your QB.

I love him and don't want another QB. He CAN be a top QB in this league. And if given the proper surrounding I know he will be again. BUT you cannot deny the inconsistencies and just mind blowing stupid mistakes he will sometimes make.

Elite - by my definition - QBs don't still make these mistakes.

 

While I didn't have time to read your book, I can't wait 'til the movie comes out entitled "Joe Flacco's Elite." Seriously though, I want to thank you for offering your opinion on why you think Joe is not an elite QB. The fact that you even invoked Andy Dalton into the discussion is hilarious after last night's debacle before a national audience. What was it that JJ Watt called him again? Oh yeah, the Red Ryder bee bee gun! Its obvious that many fans like you and the rookie don't understand the meaning of the word elite as evidenced by the fact that we are having a discussion or debate about who is and who ain't. Well, let me try one more time to explain it to you in a rational and non-condescending way for the sake of the neophyte blogger who has even thinner skin than Andy Dalton. Here goes.... The small group of men who have been elected President of the US is elite by any definition. You may not like their politics and you may debate until you're blue in the face their respective ranking or their greatness. It doesn't matter. Its an elite group of 44 men since our nation began. Similarly, the small group of men who have led their respective football team to a Super Bowl victory is elite. Again, you may not like how some of them throw off their back foot and make seemingly mindless mistakes at times. You may also debate who is the greatest of his era or who is the GOAT. It simply doesn't matter. Like I said previously, there have only been 49 Super Bowl games and only 29 quarterbacks have won. That places the victorious QBs in a very elite group of men, dating back to January 15, 1967. So, I'm not saying Joe is one of the greatest QBs of all time. I'm saying he's elite by any definition of the word elite. I apologize for the long-winded nature of my reply to your epistle but I felt the need to explain why our quarterback is one of the elite QBs in the NFL. Unfortunately, the word elite is used too loosely and misunderstood by many well-meaning sports fans to the point its almost become a trite expression. BTW, like it or not, agree or disagree, Trent Dilfer is also in this elite fraternity of 29 men. He's ranked 29th for what it's worth. To coin a phrase from Clark Gable, "frankly, my dear, I don't think Trent gives a darn!" Thanks for the opportunity to engage in some intelligent & bold discourse!